Marriage Counseling

[dacoming]

All, my wife agreed to go to marriage counseling or so it seems.  She has previously resisted MC because (1) all of the problems are my fault and (2) my constant lying and denial of "my" issues cannot be resolved because all I will do in counseling is lie.  She feels this because she says all I do is lie about everything at home.  I have been lobbying to go to counseling for years because I want to get all of our issues out on the table before a neutral party and work toward solutions.  When I try to talk to her, I can never get my feelings out because she always cuts me off and dismisses everything I do get out.  It usually leads to huge arguments.  Also, I hope that the counselor realizes that she is uBPD and lays it all out.  This may or may not happen but that is the hope.  My concern with going to counseling is the fallout from it.  We have two entirely different views on things and I know once I tell my side of things, she will blow up and accuse me of lying when I know I'm telling the truth.  I fear that she will quit going after the first meeting and it will cause more problems for us at home.  Does anyone have any advice or words of encouragement?

[maxsterling]

My advice - lower your expectations and approach with caution.

If you expect the MC to tell your wife she is being unreasonable or take your side in things - don't waste your time.  Your wife will likely be manipulative in session, to. My wife has outright abused and threatened me in the middle of session, and MC didn't specifically call her out on it.  MC can help, but you need to have tons of patience and no expectations.  And be prepared to enforce boundaries if your W is just using it as another platform for blame and abuse.

[Fian]

My one experience with Marriage Counseling was not that impressive.  We had a total of 5 sessions, 3 of which were together.  I felt like I was the only one making an effort to change, while my wife felt that she was perfectly fine.  She felt empowered to continue to complain about me which only made things worse.  The marriage counselor had some interesting ideas on what we could do to strengthen the relationship, but he basically left our statements unchallenged, and I didn't feel like there was any direction.

Since this is my only experience, I don't know if the problem is the counselor, we weren't trying enough, or we just needed to give it more time.

[formflier]

 

I have been through many different MCs... .and I am a fan of MC... I think you guys should go... .

My primary concern is your expectations... .

MC works on the r/s... .if the two people involved stay stagnant... .I would not think there would be dramatic change... .

If you approach MC with the attitude of... .I'm going to learn what I can do in order to help the r/s be the best it can be... .

Then... .I think there is hope.  Even if your wife doesn't get onboard.

If you approach MC hoping to be vindicated... .and a finger pointed at your wife as "the issue"... .I believe you will be disappointed.

So... let's start off with what do you hope to accomplish in MC?

Are you or your wife seeing a T individually?  Anyone have a diagnosis?

 

This is a good step... .many refuse to go... .and never go... .

Take it one step at a time...

FF

[Anise]

We had a total of 5 sessions, 3 of which were together. . . . Since this is my only experience, I don't know if the problem is the counselor, we weren't trying enough, or we just needed to give it more time.

Hendrix mentions in "Getting the Love you Want" that to reap the full benefit of counseling, you should commit to 10-12 sessions (I can't remember which number off the top of my head).  Typically around 5 sessions in, the core issues come up and people don't want to deal with them or feel therapy isn't working so they drop out.

That said, my husband started out with saying he wanted to get me fixed, because I'm the one with all the problems. But as we went on and it became apparent that he was the one with a lot of the issues (at one point our therapist even said, Anise, it may not be you), he declared that therapy was worthless and he wasn't getting anything out of it.  Right now I see our therapist by myself about twice a month, and he makes appointments whenever he wants, since everyone involved agrees that it's not worth forcing him to go if he doesn't want to go and doesn't think it's helping. He just doesn't want to work on his issues, and until he's ready there is no point in him going to therapy.

For what it's worth, it was this therapist that turned me onto the idea that my husband may have BPD, or at the very least, exhibits a lot of the traits.

Some therapists are complete crap, but others are really good, so factor that into your thoughts as well. It can be hard to find someone who you feel "gets" you.

[Fian]

Can you give an example of a MC success?  What is something that you got out of MC that is concrete?

[formflier]

Can you give an example of a MC success?  What is something that you got out of MC that is concrete?

We identified and agreed on patterns... .rather than "fault".

So... my wife asks a question... .I answer it... directly... .no equivocation... .wife changes nuance slightly... .asks again... .I get defensive... .slightly... .and then she asks again... even harder... .kaboom... .off we go.

MC identified this pattern and got us to see that neither of our needs were being met... .and that we were looking for the other person to meet those needs... .

My wife wanted soothing about fears surround me wanting others... .but she didn't know how to ask.  I wanted a wife that would believe me and "be reasonable".

Either of us... or both of us could break the cycle... .but neither were... .

So... .if both of us try to break it... .we will have a new dynamic. 

In my opinion... .I "broke" it more than my wife.  But to her credit... .she has disengaged from conversations as well. 

I don't chase after her... she wants space... .I give it.

The other thing that MC does... is you have a moderator that can make sure your point... or feeling... .is heard and understood.

Very different than agreeing... .

From time to time... .a MC may let one run over the other... .to observe a pattern... .gather data... .etc etc.

If this goes on for more than a session or two... .it needs to be addressed. 

The key is that interactions in MC need to be as close to reality as possible... .so the MC sees "reality"

Another good thing that my MC did... .was tell my wife that it would be a good idea to "Rule out individual mental issues... ."

She pressed pretty hard on this... .since I had submitted to testing... .and my wife had not... .

There was no accusation that my wife "had something"... .in fact my wife pressed her if the MC thought she "had something"... and the MC deferred... .said that was not her role... and not her focus.

Stuck to the "how can it hurt to get checked out and rule out all angles... ." 

Hope this helps...

FF

[Anise]

Well, I realized the whole "you recreate your parents' relationship" is a lot truer than I could ever imagine, even though I purposefully did a lot of soul searching and work on myself before I ever got involved with my husband.

I also figured out that, in the context of my previous relationships, they all have a lot more in common than I suspected.  Especially in the context of me picking people with pd traits.

I have been able to understand a lot in how I am communicating with my husband, how that is not contributing to the relationship I really want. A relationship, I might add, that is not possible with my husband as he is now.

I've learned that, no matter how carefully I've planned my life, I may not get what I want out of my life or this marriage (namely, a peaceful home, lots of travel, children).  While I am deeply sad and very hurt over these things, I've made my peace that this is how this relationship and my life are right now.

I've learned that I do a really poor job of creating and implementing boundaries in my romantic relationships, and this creates a situation where I get taken advantage of.  I can work on this.

The MC has gotten us out of the gridlock my husband and I are in, in that I have a path forward that keeps me true to my values (wanting a safe, peaceful home where I have a say in how things are).  Unfortunately, it means I will be leaving the marital home, but as my husband has no inclination to move or prepare his condo to sell, I don't have any other choice if I want to remain true to myself and my needs.  I'm done being a permanent guest in my own home, with no ability to even change a rug without my husband making a huge issue out of it. Heck, I can't even get the temperature or light level to be any closer to what I would prefer when he is at home. All the fans and A/C have to be blowing full blast in his man cave at all times when he is around, no matter how uncomfortable or cold I get.

The outcome is not what I wanted to get out of MC, but it's not the marriage counselor's job to keep us together. That is my responsibility and my husband's responsibility. If my husband is incapable of meeting any of my normal, rational requests (let's try to have children before I get too old, let's buy a house together and make it our home together, let's turn the fan off/open the shutters for a few hours), I can choose to accept things as they are and know that none of my relationship needs are ever going to be met, or I can get my own place, which I can afford, and hope that the exercise will help me build better boundaries in dealing with him.  If he continues to force all the relationship work on me, I cannot continue to be in a relationship like that and will divorce him for the sake of my sanity and mental/emotional health.

I would really love to have an actualized, healthy, happy relationship with my husband. But it's just not possible right now until I do a lot of work on myself and he does a lot of work on himself, which he doesn't seem willing to do right now.  As much as I used to care for him and want things to work out, life is too short to spend with someone in perpetual denial.  I can't find the worthwhile meaning in that.

[dacoming]

I have been through many different MCs... .and I am a fan of MC... I think you guys should go... .


Are you or your wife seeing a T individually?  Anyone have a diagnosis?

 

I have seen several therapists on my own and they all enforce setting boundaries and to start doing things to keep me mentally and emotionally healthy.  One of the counselors asked me what types of things I like to do and what would make me happy and all I could think was "peace."  She noted that it seems I spend so much time trying to do things and say things to make her happy that I don't even remember what I like.  Of course, they could not diagnose my wife since she was not there but based off some of the events I outlined, she could be BPD as well as a number of other things.

[dacoming]

All, this is great feedback thus far, thanks!   I will lower my expectations and focus on what I can do to improve the relationship from my end.  One problem we are having is I have been suffering from erectile dysfunction for several years now.  She feels it is from excess masturbation.  The doctors did blood and urine tests and did not find a physical cause but determined that it appears to be psychological.  I agree with that diagnosis because I still am able to get erections and get erections through the night and morning.  My problem occurs with trying to maintain the erections during intercourse.  I get anxiety and worry the whole time whether or not I will lose the erection.  Therefore, I often lose it.  It seems like a vicious cycle I cannot escape from.  The doctors all ask about relationship problems and I confirm there are issues and have been for years.  They all agree that the relationship problems were the likely cause of the ED and fear of failure to perform creates the anxiety and performance issues.  However, when I try to talk to her about it, she gets angry because she feels I'm looking for excuses rather than fixing the real problem.  She thinks if I don't masturbate at all ever again, that might solve the problem.  She feels the doctors don't know what they are talking about.  To her credit, she does try to encourage me when these issues happen and she's patient to an extent, but her refusal to understand my feelings about the causes escalate the problem in my opinion.  I have an appointment with a sex therapist but I know when I tell her, she's going to hit the roof because she doesn't think that's it.  She feels I should go back to the doctor and have them do other tests like an ultrasound or some other tests.  The VA doctors told me they don't have the capability to do any other tests and reinforced that since I am getting regular erections and the blood and urine results were good, that rules out the need for further tests for physical causes.

[Anise]

For the ED stuff, have any of your therapists brought up sensate focus?

It may help with the anxiety. It starts with non sexual touch and over time increases physical intimacy to intercourse.  Something to read about, anyway.

[dacoming]

For the ED stuff, have any of your therapists brought up sensate focus?

It may help with the anxiety. It starts with non sexual touch and over time increases physical intimacy to intercourse.  Something to read about, anyway.

A couple of them brought it up but they both wanted my wife to come with me to the sessions so they can discuss and map a plan.  I also read about it.  At the time, she refused and resented me asking that because she was not the problem.  After that, I would go to a few sessions but the impact was minimal without her.  I believe I can get through this but I need her to first believe and understand what I'm telling her I'm going through and stop trying to diagnose what she thinks it is.  Then maybe we could go to see the therapist together and try to get past this. 

[Anise]

Hmm.  Maybe if you frame it as you need her help for an exercise your therapist wants you to try, that would help you and your wife be more intimate/closer?

You know best how she will react, but if you put it in a way that is about them getting their needs/wants met, and you're the one with the issue who needs help, maybe that will get their foot in the door.

Good luck!

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

We identified and agreed on patterns... .rather than "fault".

So... my wife asks a question... .I answer it... directly... .no equivocation... .wife changes nuance slightly... .asks again... .I get defensive... .slightly... .and then she asks again... even harder... .kaboom... .off we go.

Boy, this one hits home... .

My wife and I went to MC awhile back without much success... .For instance my wife would complain that I'm not readable, so she doesn't know what I'm thinking.  The MC pointed out not everyone is readable, and offered a tool to find out what I'm thinking (basically, ask me).

So we still go around in circles because when she asks me, it doesn't line up with her "read" on me... .

We've talked about going back, but she wants someone else... .She pushes for our pastor because she's certain then I'll be told I'm wrong (because you know, I read books with the word nipple in them... .)  Oops... .dropped into "vent mode" there for a second.

Anyway, she discusses everything in terms of right & wrong... .So if I want to meet her brother downtown for a drink there's no back and forth, how long are you going to be, you're both driving, keep it to 2 beers... .anything like that... .It's flat out wrong for me to go to a restaurant with a bar without her because that's where women go to snag men, and the waitresses may flirt.

So back to MC, I could see the pattern session after session was her trying to find fault... .She's still says I of course need counseling, I respond back that we could both use counseling and after we each go individually then I'll consider going together again.

[formflier]

(because you know, I read books with the word nipple in them... .)  Oops... .dropped into "vent mode" there for a second.

This seems to be a story worth sharing... .



FF

[dacoming]

Hmm.  Maybe if you frame it as you need her help for an exercise your therapist wants you to try, that would help you and your wife be more intimate/closer?

You know best how she will react, but if you put it in a way that is about them getting their needs/wants met, and you're the one with the issue who needs help, maybe that will get their foot in the door.

Good luck!

Thanks, that sounds like excellent advice!  I will see if that works.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

(because you know, I read books with the word nipple in them... .)  Oops... .dropped into "vent mode" there for a second.

This seems to be a story worth sharing... .



FF

I thought I'd shared this trait, but it might have been quite awhile ago.

It's one of the many ways her insecurities show up.  And also how she can make every disagreement a matter of right or wrong instead of differences of opinion.

One of the early  books she objected to was a basic lawyer types.  I male lawyer is asked by female old law school chum to fly into town and investigate a grand jury case.  he's married, she's widowed.  As the book progresses it becomes apparent that the female needs to be looked at as a suspect. 

350 pages into a 600 page book, he's relaxing in her hot-tub, eyes closed when she gets in.  He opens his eyes & she's naked and tries to seduce him.

There's a couple sentences where he thinks "holy crap" and then "boy is she hot" and a sentence including a description of her state of excitement (which included the word nipple... .).  He hops out of the hot-tub and high-tails it out of there, wondering if she's trying to cloud his judgement.

Now, to be fair, this one stands out because it was literally 1/2 a paragraph in a 600 page book.  But she was aghast (how she found it skimming looking for the sex bits I don't know... .I doubt the book is on the parenting sites she checks).

But because of this she doesn't 'feel' I hold our marriage and sex life sacred.  She's sharing me with other people.  It comes out if we're discussing sex, which I can then SET, but it's thrown out in all sorts of situations (she likes to shot-gun argue... .).

I used to tell her if you sum up the books I've read, there's more sex talk in the Bible than what I read... .But this has never helped (now I know... .JADE... .duh).

Now I try to keep my side of the simple... .I'm not lusting in my heart, if that standard is good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.

[maxsterling]

(because you know, I read books with the word nipple in them... .)  Oops... .dropped into "vent mode" there for a second.

This seems to be a story worth sharing... .



FF

I thought I'd shared this trait, but it might have been quite awhile ago.

It's one of the many ways her insecurities show up.  And also how she can make every disagreement a matter of right or wrong instead of differences of opinion.

One of the early  books she objected to was a basic lawyer types.  I male lawyer is asked by female old law school chum to fly into town and investigate a grand jury case.  he's married, she's widowed.  As the book progresses it becomes apparent that the female needs to be looked at as a suspect. 

350 pages into a 600 page book, he's relaxing in her hot-tub, eyes closed when she gets in.  He opens his eyes & she's naked and tries to seduce him.

There's a couple sentences where he thinks "holy crap" and then "boy is she hot" and a sentence including a description of her state of excitement (which included the word nipple... .).  He hops out of the hot-tub and high-tails it out of there, wondering if she's trying to cloud his judgement.

Now, to be fair, this one stands out because it was literally 1/2 a paragraph in a 600 page book.  But she was aghast (how she found it skimming looking for the sex bits I don't know... .I doubt the book is on the parenting sites she checks).

But because of this she doesn't 'feel' I hold our marriage and sex life sacred.  She's sharing me with other people.  It comes out if we're discussing sex, which I can then SET, but it's thrown out in all sorts of situations (she likes to shot-gun argue... .).

I used to tell her if you sum up the books I've read, there's more sex talk in the Bible than what I read... .But this has never helped (now I know... .JADE... .duh).

Now I try to keep my side of the simple... .I'm not lusting in my heart, if that standard is good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.

I'm chuckling at this one.  Wow.  I would have no idea how I would approach it if I encountered something like this from my wife. 

[formflier]

 

Sorry fellas, I'm afraid my sex story still takes the cake.

Anyone remember when my wife emails me a picture of a naked woman.  And then when I told her I had not interest in it, she got upset.

So basically, the same lady that would be all over me for looking at women (supposedly), sends me one to look at.

 

I figured I would used the to "slam the door" on the accusations around other women.  So, I bring it up at the next MC.  Wife is aghast.  Our MC is female, her eyes were wide and was trying to ask my wife what is up with that, and at the same time clarifying that  my wife understands that I do NOT want to get naked pictures of women from her in the future.

You know what?  It worked.  Accusations are almost non-existent now.

Anyone want to try and top that?

FF

[empath]

It is good to hear the experiences of marriage counseling.

We may have to undergo some type of marriage counseling at some point in the future per our Bishop's order -- but right now, uBPDh's therapist is not recommending that happen because of the abuse issues. (Yay for therapists that actually get it) I had expressed my concerns to our pastor about the marriage counseling and described what is generally recommended.

H thinks that we have a communication issue. The issue is that he doesn't believe or accept what I say about myself because his feelings would be different than mine are. He also hates the idea that he is the only one with the problem -- I think it triggers a kind of fear that something is really wrong with him.

Anyway, I don't see this marriage counseling recommendation going well for him.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Sorry fellas, I'm afraid my sex story still takes the cake.

Anyone remember when my wife emails me a picture of a naked woman.  And then when I told her I had not interest in it, she got upset.

So basically, the same lady that would be all over me for looking at women (supposedly), sends me one to look at.

 

I figured I would used the to "slam the door" on the accusations around other women.  So, I bring it up at the next MC.  Wife is aghast.  Our MC is female, her eyes were wide and was trying to ask my wife what is up with that, and at the same time clarifying that  my wife understands that I do NOT want to get naked pictures of women from her in the future.

You know what?  It worked.  Accusations are almost non-existent now.

Anyone want to try and top that?

FF

OK, I'm ready to concede defeat (for now... .).  I'm guessing we're only a few years behind ff.

My wife has shoved Victoria Secret catalogs under my nose... .my ex-wife bought things from them and dummy me when I forward my mail after getting married I didn't specify only my first name, so we still get stuff addressed to my ex.

My wife has also, dozens of times, said we should watch Game of Thrones, even though we've agreed to not watch things with nudity... .again, I read the books before the series was made. (My example book earlier was on one end of the spectrum, the GoT books have much more sex, but nothing I would say was designed to "get the reader hot". 

Somehow she can listen to me and her daughter (my step) discuss the GoT books and still tell me later that I only read them for the sex (because that's what men do... .even though it doesn't explain why her daughter would also read them... .)  For her it make sense that we would watch the show... .for... .who the heck knows.

I know for pwBPD emotions = fact, but it still makes it difficult when during the discussions no two sentences are connected logically... .so even if you start with the 'facts' based in emotion, you should still then be able to logically follow those facts, step by step, to your conclusions... .

[empath]

Yeah, they think that their logic is perfectly understandable and right.

I remember a few years ago when h wanted to do something that would have severely limited my choices. When I related this thing that he wanted to do to other people, they were all like, "why would he think that is okay?" I knew how he was thinking, but it was really self-centered.

It's almost like there is another language that they have.