W keeps flip flopping about staying or leaving

[TooRational]

Hello,

First thread on this board put I posted in [L5] Staging and [L3] Leaving before. Our relationship has been a roller coaster in the past few weeks.

Basically my W told me last night that she has second thoughts about leaving. We had a sort of mediation session with our best friends last night about the separation thing, how we're going to handle the kids, living arrangements, etc. She said this all made it real, and made her realize what she was doing. She felt like crying, which is the first time she's had emotions about the separation (she says). She says it's one of her issue, the lack of emotions in her life. Is that typical of BPD? She's also depressed, so it could be anhedonia.

Anyhow, I'm here because I'm not sure how to react. She told me she was leaving one week ago. It was very serious this time around, we told all of our friends, family, etc. I took the past week to heal myself from that wound and work on myself.

This is at least the second time that she's flip flopped big time (on top of mentioning leaving on and off for the past several months). She told me very clearly she was leaving 2 weeks ago and then, 4 hours later, told me that a guy had made her change her mind and she was gonna try to stay. Then a week after that, changed her mind again: the real split (when we told our friends). And now, second thoughts again.

She told me that she's scared of the next steps. She doesn't want to hurt the kids. She says maybe she should go back on Effexor, things were better that way, she was actually happy (true, at some point at least). A little backstory, our relationship when downhill after she stopped her Effexor a few months ago. Granted, our relationship hadn't been great prior but the bottle "burst". All the emotions came out. Her psychologist is strongly against her going back on the meds. More details in my first thread.

So, the big question, how should I react to this? I have my kids best interest in mind (S3, D7) so staying is probably the best option for them. However, I'm not sure if I want to be involved with this woman anymore. I think I still love her but I don't know how much pain I can keep receiving. The hardest thing is her affairs. She has cheated on me more than once when we were trying to work on our relationship, before she told me it was over. In our own home too. I know this hasn't stopped and she sees other guys regularly. She doesn't work on Fridays so last Friday she got all dressed up to go meet other guy(s), it's very obvious. I'm not being paranoid, when I hint about that behavior she doesn't deny it.

This morning I stumbled upon her e-mails (we share computers) and I saw several e-mails from another guy. I didn't open them. This hurts.

So, any advice? To be honest I don't think there's much chance that we'll be able to work it out if we stay together. She has several issues to deal with on her own before we can be happy together and I do to. Unfortunately, her sessions with a psychologist don't seem very fruitful. She hasn't been given any diagnosis and the only feedback she's giving me is that the psychologist seems to "understand" her feelings and expresses them for her very well. However, she doesn't seem to have any therapeutic plan. At least none that she shared with my W. I told my W that I think she might be BPD and that there are therapies that are supposed to help but she thinks I'll never be satisfied with a P, my standards are too high.

Still, given my pessimism about this relationship, we have kids together so in my opinion, it's worth fighting for. I just don't want to fight a battle that I'm guaranteed to lose.

What we discussed as an option is for each of us to go live with a friend/parents for one or two days during the week. This wouldn't be as extreme as a full separation and we could tell the kids that mommy and daddy need some time alone. It think that it could be a reasonable compromise in the short term... .

[Notwendy]

So, the big question, how should I react to this?


The answer is, to not react, but to act according to your central values.

You may not know what to do, or what you feel is right, and this is where focusing on you comes in.

It's OK to not know, it is where you are at. You don't have to make a major decision when you are in the place of not knowing what you want to do. The "time out" you describe may give you both the space to think about it.

You brought up the idea of co-dependency in other threads, and although you don't see this as something that you feel badly about, when someone can get centered, take the perspective off the other person, and onto themselves, they can choose to act according to their values.


One question is her infidelity. Can you live with this as it is?  If you stay with her, knowing that you don't have the power to change her own power to make a choice, then how will you handle this?

She has flipped flopped. The push pull is a part of the disorder and she may cycle and flip flop. That doesn't mean you have to.

She wants to come back, but what do you want? Do you want to put the control of staying or leaving in her hands? She can choose to stay or leave regardless, but if you base your choice only on her choice- will you be then looking at her for your choices?

The kids. Yes, I agree that flip flopping isn't good for them. For them to be emotionally put through divorce- no divorce is upsetting and confusing. You don't have to stay for the kids alone, but even if you do or do not, how can you keep their lives as stable as possible?

This is an issue that IMHO, could benefit from professional help. It is life altering for all involved. You may not have much influence over your wife getting help, but you could get individual help for you, and for the kids. There are counselors who have experience with helping kids in divided families, and could help you in how to best work this out- whether it is the partial separation, or other choices.

[Gonzalo]

Do you want to stay in a relationship with someone who thinks so little of your relationship that she keeps telling you it's over, either because she's giving up on it or to manipulate you? Or who thinks so little of promises to you that she keeps cheating on you? Do you think so little of yourself that you want to keep riding the roller coaster of breakups, and to keep just putting up with her screwing other people for fun? Is that the example of a relationship you want to give your kids, do you want them to grow up thinking that cheating is A-OK and that a relationship involves telling everyone that you're breaking up but then not following through at the last moment?

I don't see why what you have is 'worth fighting for,' by your description of the situation.

[TooRational]

Notwendy, thanks for following me in this new thread. You seem to have a good grasp of my situation. Yes, the big question is how I should react. I'm not sure yet. What do I want? In my dreams, I'd want to stop this nightmare and go back to a normal, loving relationship (well, an improved one over what it was) and family, but that's not realistic.

I'm torn between giving her yet another chance for the kids and actually forcing her to make the step that she's afraid to make, actually leaving and living separately. I somehow think that she wants me to take part of the blame by kicking her out. Then it wouldn't be all of her fault (it isn't anyway, I'm not perfect by any means). I know she feels bad about what she's doing to me and the kids, but it's stronger than her.

I at least set my expectations today with her, I told her that I can't accept her cheating on me if we want to have any chance of working it out. She responded with her typical one-word answer when she wants to brush something off: "Alright". I didn't push it further because I know that it drives her crazy (I might have before but I'm trying to change).

Gonzalo, I guess I did make her look pretty bad and I probably wouldn't want to be with the person I described. But I have a deep connection with that person, she's not all bad. I'm convinced that she's sick (if she's BPD, it's an actual disease) and it's not really her acting that way. Or at least I'm trying to convince myself of that. She hasn't always been like that and I'm hoping that she can become a "good person" again.

My friend made me realize something interesting about the issue of her feeling controlled by me. I'll post it the other thread about controlling.

[TooRational]

So, yesterday night she confirmed to me that she can't just leave, she cares about the children too much and doesn't want to break our family. She's willing to suffer for them. I'm having mixed feelings. I'm glad that she's willing to stay but at the same time, I don't want her to feel like in a prison, I want her to be happy, and it's clear that she will only barely "tolerate" being with me. I don't see any intimacy happening anytime soon.

We will still go ahead with the trial separation two days a week. One week she'll spend two days with a friend while I stay with the kids, and I'll do the same the week after.

We'll see how it goes I guess... .As for myself, I'll try to improve on all the behaviors she criticized about me (controlling, dismissive of her opinion, not doing my share of household chores, especially cooking, etc). It feels like a huge burden and I'm not sure if I have the strength required to change as much as she wants me to change, but I'll try. Otherwise, I'll keep making her life miserable and her pain will be so great that she will prefer to hurt the kids by leaving than to keep being hurt in our relationship.

[Lucky Jim]

She wants to come back, but what do you want? Do you want to put the control of staying or leaving in her hands? She can choose to stay or leave regardless, but if you base your choice only on her choice- will you be then looking at her for your choices?

Hey TooRational, I concur with the questions raised by Notwendy, which indicate to me that you may have a codependent side, in the sense that you are looking to her to make a decision rather than making one for yourself.  Most of us Nons have this codependent impulse to caretake, which is why we get into a r/s with a pwBPD in the first place.  I would suggest that it's more important to take care of yourself, and to put your needs first.  What is the right path for you?  If you're unsure, maybe it would help it you spent some time listening to your gut feelings.

LuckyJim

[TooRational]

Alright, I need to vent. Am I codependent? Maybe. What I know is that it f****ing hurts to be so despised by someone! Yes, I need to be loved, is that a disease? Tonight I found lube in the bed downstairs where she cheated on me two weeks ago. I threw the lube at her and burst out of the house to go running, obviously upset. She tells me that it's not what I think and it was for her to relieve herself. I'm quite skeptical, why would she do it in the basement? I mean ira possible but the other scenario is much more likely. Arrrrggghhh!

[TooRational]

LuckyJim, I posted that in my other thread by mistake, it should have been posted here. So sorry folks about the double post.

Alright, I need to vent. Am I codependent? Maybe. What I know is that it f****ing hurts to be so despised by someone! Yes, I need to be loved, is that a disease? Tonight I found lube in the bed downstairs where she cheated on me two weeks ago. I threw the lube at her and burst out of the house to go running, obviously upset. She tells me that it's not what I think and it was for her to relieve herself. I'm quite skeptical, why would she do it in the basement? I mean it's possible but the other scenario is much more likely. Arrrrggghhh!

[TooRational]

A little update, she swears that it's not what I think and this was only when she slept downstairs by herself a few nights ago. Maybe... .She's been pretty honest in this whole nightmare at least, she has admitted to cheating before so I guess she would have admitted again, maybe... .

Wow, this whole flip flopping roller coaster is hard. Part of me thinks I should have a back bone and just leave her and if I didn't have kids, I would for sure. But I must try to be strong for the kids. I guess we can try to live together as parents, just not lovers. Would that be a good idea?

[Notwendy]

One thing about boundaries to keep in mind is that they are a reflection of our core values- not something we put on another person. We act according to our own values when our boundaries are violated. If we don't have strong boundaries, then we become reactive to other people's expectations or demands.

To me, and this is just how I read it, the children are being brought up in the middle of the situation between you two- as collateral. This doesn't mean you don't consider them, they are important but it seems to me that there is a " you had better stop making my life miserable or I hurt the kids" statement. I don't see where the topic of cheating is brought up- does this mean you are expected to ignore or tolerate this?

One result of co-dependency is that the focus is on the other person, not ourselves and sometimes people who are co-dependent don't even know well what they want themselves as they are focused on what the other person wants and are trying to meet that want. Sure, it is good to be concerned about your spouse and your children, but if you don't have an idea of what you want, what you can live with, and what is a deal breaker, then it is hard to establish boundaries.

There are no perfect people. We all have things we put up with, and things we would not.

We can put up with some annoying habits, a spouse's hobby even if we don't share it, spouse can't resist a clothing sale, traits like forgetfulness, things like that.

But things like infidelity, dishonesty, spending money to the point of damaging the financial security of the family, serious addictions, abuse-- these are big things that we have to decide - can we live with them or are they deal breakers?

There are three entities in this scenario- your wife, the kids, and you. I think you have an idea of what your wife wants ( at least in the moment), what would be good for the kids, but I am not sure you have an idea of what you want.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey TooRational, I think Notwendy's points are well taken.  To me, it seems like you are looking to someone else -- your spouse -- in order to feel good about yourself, which is a classic sign of codependency.  Look, I've done it, too.  In some says, you have to be a caretaker to be in a r/s with a pwBPD, so it's a pretty common trait among us Nons.  The point is to acknowledge and recognize this tendency, and then to take steps to stop doing it.  The goal is to get your self-esteem from within, not from looking to others.

LuckyJim

[TooRational]

I talked about co-dependency again with my T this morning to get her opinion. I told her that if we didn't have kids together, I would be out of this relationship. She says that this kinda shows that I'm in a "responsible" relationship (might not be the exact translation, English is not my native language) rather than a dependent relationship. I'm not sure to what extent she's right. I know that I'm showing signs of co-dependency, I'm just not sure to what extent it's really a problem in my life. As I said previously, maybe I'm just in denial about the whole thing.

Thanks everyone for your support and patience. I've been posting a lot lately and getting lots of answers. This has helped me a lot.

[Notwendy]

Your command of English is excellent. Perhaps it would help to consider the different nuances of the term dependent. One is the "I can't live without you" dependent. ":)ependent" is also used that way in science experiments. One variable is independent, the other dependent, because when the independent variable changes, the dependent variable does too. I think this is the kind of dependent that is considered in co-dependency.

Healthy relationships are interdependent, where two individuals can lean on each other, but they are not enmeshed.

You may want to look at translations of co-dependency books ( or those written in) your primary language because sometimes the nuances in words are better described in other languages.

[TooRational]

Thanks NotWendy and LuckyJim. I think I'm more inter-dependant than co-dependant but everything is not black and white. I can see myself living without her, although I realize that I would face certain challenges. For example, being a single parent 50% of the time while working full-time 40h weeks would be quite a challenge, but I could manage, I'm sure. My biggest concern is as always, how the kids would react.

I wasn't sure how to exactly translate the word "responsible" from French to convey the proper meaning but I general I have no problems reading books in English. In fact, I speak English at home with my wife and French at work so for some reason, words come easier for me in English when talking about personal stuff.

[Notwendy]

The kids are a real concern and it is important to consider them.

When you both are in a state of not being sure what to do, if nobody is in immediate physical danger, then you can take the time to work on yourself, learn relationship skills while staying married. Your wife may go back and forth , changing her mind, but that doesn't mean you have to make a decision about your relationship right now, or each time she says something.

Co -dependency is a term that, like many terms, describes a range of personality traits on a spectrum. So, perhaps you feel it doesn't fit you entirely, but can you use this term for ideas that may help you?  When you read about it, do you think , well this part doesn't sound like me, but wow- this part does. If any of it resonates with you, then those may be aspects to look into. At the very least, there are issues in your marriage that are disturbing to you, such as cheating. This alone can be reason to seek personal therapy to help you decide how to deal with that, as it a hurtful thing to deal with.

[Silveron]

Toorational,

  What you have to understand is that BPD is basically incurable.  Even if she has the right therapist, she will still have issues however with DBT this would lessen the 'extremes'.

What you have been doing is tolerating her behavior.  Even if she has BPD, she still has responsibilities to you and your children.  You need to protect yourself and get tested for STDs. 

  Basically you have become her father (with weak parenting skills).  She does something awful, you scold her, she screams at you and you back off from punishment.  She knows there is no consequences to her behavior so she will continue to cheat and she will continue to threaten to leave.  It's her way of controlling you.  In the mean time she is teaching your kids through her actions on how to treat people.  You will notice your kids will treat you differently than her.  They will start to manipulate you as she is doing.

  If you are looking for a 'wake up' moment from her where she will 'see the light' it will not happen.  She is stuck at the emotional IQ of a bratty teenager.  You can try all the BPD techniques there are, however they are not going to stop her from making impulse decisions, especially cheating.

  IMO when she leaves, she will find another guy to care for her.  Good chance she will abandon the children in different ways (emotionally) and perhaps physically.  She comes first in her life and she is only thinking about the now.  However, what I just wrote, is it really that bad compared to what she is doing now?

  IMO you should get all the evidence of cheating and contact a lawyer.  The state you live in might have 'at fault' divorce.  This will help you get full custody of your children.  Why continue to walk on eggshells with her?  Why continue to get hurt?  Even if she does start to treat you good, can you really believe it's because she loves you or is it because she is hiding something else?

  You have to decide how much more you want to tolerate and how much you want your children to endure.  You can't control her and change her ways, you can only control your own future.