How to respond to "Get away from me"...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I'm so tired of hearing BPDh tell me to "get away from me", that I could just scream. Who does he think he is? He said this after he mocked and belittled me. His DBT place called, and they let his DBT therapist go(they say it was a licensing issue), and I quietly asked him to ask the secretary if he could be placed in one of the groups. He kept giving me the "one minute", and he'd ask finger(which I knew he was lying about), and sure enough HE DIDN'T ASK! I'm sick of his lies too. He didn't ask, because he doesn't care. He hasn't had DBT in three weeks, and he's only midway through a year program. He also just lapsed off his meds for four days. Cold turkey from 350-400 mg. of Wellbutrin to none.

I calmly asked him why he didn't even ask about group, because he's been considering it, and he got mocking, belittling and angry. Said I don't know everything, and this is his choice. Well, he's never researched DBT, and I HAVE! I'm not afraid to ask questions, and he doesn't like to. After he mocked me and got angry, I started crying, and he told me to "get away from him".

I'm so sick of this hot mess. He's back to blaming ME, and saying I never change, yet I've been in and out of T, and all T's agree he has little respect for me, and that I need boundaries with him. I do now have boundaries, but that seems to anger him worse, and while he's been in a good phase lately, here he goes again. He's back to saying it's all ME, yet when I trot out all the things I HAVE worked on, things he specifically asked of me, he doesn't have anything to say, and he just clams up, or says he's a rotten person(which he clearly doesn't believe?, or he'd stop blaming just me?).

How do I deal with the blame(I no longer pick it up, and try not to JADE), and most importantly how do I deal with "get away from me". I do not feel I EVER deserve to be talked to like that. EVER. I want him to get the clear message that it's not okay, and I'd like it to stop, but I realize I can only change ME, or set boundaries around ME.

I'm just so mad and hurt right now. He stayed home from work, so I'm stuck dealing with him, which will either mean he's angry and avoidant all day, or he'll want to punish me in some way. Most likely with threats of divorce. I'm sort of scared, because I just don't feel up to this... .

[Ceruleanblue]

I'm so tired of hearing BPDh tell me to "get away from me", that I could just scream. Who does he think he is? He said this after he mocked and belittled me. His DBT place called, and they let his DBT therapist go(they say it was a licensing issue), and I quietly asked him to ask the secretary if he could be placed in one of the groups. He kept giving me the "one minute", and he'd ask finger(which I knew he was lying about), and sure enough HE DIDN'T ASK! I'm sick of his lies too. He didn't ask, because he doesn't care. He hasn't had DBT in three weeks, and he's only midway through a year program. He also just lapsed off his meds for four days. Cold turkey from 350-400 mg. of Wellbutrin to none.

I calmly asked him why he didn't even ask about group, because he's been considering it, and he got mocking, belittling and angry. Said I don't know everything, and this is his choice. Well, he's never researched DBT, and I HAVE! I'm not afraid to ask questions, and he doesn't like to. After he mocked me and got angry, I started crying, and he told me to "get away from him".

I'm so sick of this hot mess. He's back to blaming ME, and saying I never change, yet I've been in and out of T, and all T's agree he has little respect for me, and that I need boundaries with him. I do now have boundaries, but that seems to anger him worse, and while he's been in a good phase lately, here he goes again. He's back to saying it's all ME, yet when I trot out all the things I HAVE worked on, things he specifically asked of me, he doesn't have anything to say, and he just clams up, or says he's a rotten person(which he clearly doesn't believe?, or he'd stop blaming just me?).

How do I deal with the blame(I no longer pick it up, and try not to JADE), and most importantly how do I deal with "get away from me". I do not feel I EVER deserve to be talked to like that. EVER. I want him to get the clear message that it's not okay, and I'd like it to stop, but I realize I can only change ME, or set boundaries around ME.

I'm just so mad and hurt right now. He stayed home from work, so I'm stuck dealing with him, which will either mean he's angry and avoidant all day, or he'll want to punish me in some way. Most likely with threats of divorce. I'm sort of scared, because I just don't feel up to this... .

[ArleighBurke]

It is very difficult feeling lost and alone. Especially when your desire is to try to help them out. You are trying to love them and it doesn't' work.

They can't acknowledge their own pain, and they probably have fear of change. It's always easier to blame someone else, rather than admit where you are. And a classic BPD move is to push someone away before they get too close.

I don't know how to live with a BPD. I've tried for years and it never feels OK. It is the most draining relationship. It's up to YOU to decide why you stay. It's up to YOU to decide what you will accept and what you won't. Leaving is a very difficult choice. Staying is an equally difficult choice.

Perhaps you can take time out - go away for a few days just to clear your head?

[Daniell85]

One of the biggest impressions I have had over the long term, reading your posts, is that your husband has issues with control. As in he wants to be in control.

What would happen if you backed away from trying to get him to do anything? What does he do on his own? One thing I see is a pattern of you trying to talk him into things he is not, or does not appear to want to do, and the end result is he treats you disrespectfully.

He also has done this to you.

I know we keep talking about boundaries. Remember they are the lines between what is you and what is him. Your stuff. His stuff. He may feel very strongly that his mental health is his stuff, and he is trying to push you back out of whatever perimeter he has for that.

What do you think?

[formflier]

How do I deal with the blame(I no longer pick it up, and try not to JADE), and most importantly how do I deal with "get away from me". 

I agree that you have been doing better with jade and blame.

What do you think of a next step of no longer listening or participating at all in blame?

If he stops being able to have any conversations with you about blame... .it might help it die out.

I think Daniell85 is on to something in her post as well...

FF

[unicorn2014]

Hi Cerulean Blue, I am very sorry you are going through all that.   What kind of self care do you have lined up for yourself? You are right, nobody deserves to be talked to that way, married or not. Also to go off his meds cold turkey like that is very dangerous. Has his doctor been informed of this? That sounds like a very difficult situation. I hope that some people who have experience can chime in and shed some light on this. Would it be possible for you to take a a weekend away for yourself? 

[patientandclear]

I think Daniell85's point makes sense -- he is responding to you trying to play a role in deciding his mental health treatment.  Sure, that's going to annoy him, and it seems likely that "get away from me" is coming from there, with your tears at him not doing what you want compounding his bad feelings.

What I assume is underlying this for you though -- what may make it hard to just back away from this topic and set down any expectations -- is that you really need him to make some changes and become a more capable partner, for the marriage to feel like a good idea.  Is that more or less it?  If so, I can really understand how just dropping the issue and letting him decide does not feel good.

Maybe the advanced communicators around here can suggest some way to convey to him that his work in DBT matters to you, while still finding a place of acceptance if he does not seriously pursue it, without you trying to nudge and intervene.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I didn't cry because he didn't do "what I wanted", I was crying over the severity of his mocking and belittling me. Plus, it had been a hard four days around here. We had been talking when his DBT place called, and he's never had an issue about discussing his T, or any of that before. It just came really out of the blue. Heck, he's asked me to come with him to T quite a few times, so I don't think that is what was bothering him.

He did say he was feeling rather shaky, and sick that day, day four of being off his meds. And no, his doctor does not know he went off them cold turkey. I don't even know why he did that.

And heck yeah, he has HUGE control issues. He has to feel he is in total control, to a freaky degree. I don't even mind a rather controlling guy, but this is just beyond anything I've ever seen. I mean, I think he even feels controlled if he needs to apologize, or when he's wrong about something. I think LOTS of things make him feel he's losing control, or will mean I then have control. It's just like a super strong need for complete dominance.

It's to the point where I fear asking his help with ANYTHING. We have a project that was supposed to be fun for both of us, and part of it was sorting boxes in the garage. Some of them are really heavy. I didn't ask him to come help me(which also angered him), because I feared if I asked him, he'd feel controlled or bossed around, no matter how nicely I ask. It's been a long standing pattern. He's had a rocky past with several boss' in his past, I'm sure because they "asked" him to do things.

And on the disrespect front, he also treats me disrespectfully at other times, so I don't think it's just exclusive to me trying to communicate with him. It's gotten so bad that I'm having trouble finding any pattern to it.

And what is "die out"? I find a lot of his conversations this weekend had to do with blaming me for all sorts of things I had no idea he even thought. Things that happened long ago. He brought up that I "just sat there, and didn't talk to any of his family" at an event his cousins had. This couldn't be further from the truth, and this time, I DID choose to JADE because it's almost like he's delusional. He actually agreed that I had talked to them, and heck, he wasn't even around us most of the time, because he was at the bar with his male cousins, and I was at a table with his female cousins. It's all just so WEIRD. It's like he has these totally false, and deliberately negative views of me, and they are totally not fact based. Usually I just laugh it off, but this time, it was so outrageous, that I wasn't going to just let him think he was right. It's like he'll make up any amount of garbage, just to suit his story, vilify me, guilt me, and to get his own way.

He was advised by his Psychiatrist to do the DBT, and I'd think the three weeks of no therapy, and going off his meds, would be a concern to BPDh. I think he resents being on meds at all, and I think he really resents being in DBT, even though his doctor suggested it. I got blamed for that too, at one point, and I NEVER suggested DBT, and didn't even think we had DBT available locally.

[Ceruleanblue]

PatientandClear:

I already have so little say in anything, and I don't feel I have any say about his DBT. It is his therapy, but we did talk of him maybe joining group, and he didn't seem upset by that. Maybe he was, and he just stuffed it. He tends to do that a LOT. I thought he might like group because he loves being around people, and he's always mentioning doing group activities. He's the one who told me group was an option when he started DBT.

I really have no say or dealings with his DBT now, other than I'll sometimes ask how it went. He does the same to me after my T, and I sort of like that he shows interest. I can stop asking him how it went, but it's not as if he ever elaborates much anyway. He barely talks to me about anything. It's sort of like sustained, low grade silent treatment at all times. Back when he was loving, and before he devalued me, he talked a lot. Now, I'm lucky to get "how was your day", and he thinks that is all the talking he needs to do all day.

And while I can totally give up expressing any interest in his DBT, it is hard for me to give up hope that he'll actually work the program(and I pretty much think he wasn't, even prior to the lapse). There are times he's been so angry, and out of control and unpredictable, that he almost seems not fit to be around humans. Just last night my daughter(she's 19) asked me what is wrong with him, and said he looked totally evil. Just before he's gone "evil", he'd been being kind to me, but his son called saying he was coming to dinner tomorrow(I was not consulted, I was told I'd be making dinner for his son/latest gf), and he instantly turned frantic and angry at everyone, and started cleaning house(we had stuff everywhere because we are sorting things for a project)... .

If my daughter didn't have two local jobs, plus college that is close, I'd pack us up and go stay at my folks for a few days. I have no idea how long it will take the Wellbutrin to kick back in after a four day lapse... .

[flourdust]

And heck yeah, he has HUGE control issues. He has to feel he is in total control, to a freaky degree. I don't even mind a rather controlling guy, but this is just beyond anything I've ever seen. I mean, I think he even feels controlled if he needs to apologize, or when he's wrong about something. I think LOTS of things make him feel he's losing control, or will mean I then have control. It's just like a super strong need for complete dominance.

It's to the point where I fear asking his help with ANYTHING. We have a project that was supposed to be fun for both of us, and part of it was sorting boxes in the garage. Some of them are really heavy. I didn't ask him to come help me(which also angered him), because I feared if I asked him, he'd feel controlled or bossed around, no matter how nicely I ask. It's been a long standing pattern. He's had a rocky past with several boss' in his past, I'm sure because they "asked" him to do things.

First, let me say I am so sorry you are going through this, Ceruleanblue. It's incredibly hard to not be able to interact on a normal plane with our loved ones without it being distorted in some weird, accusatory way.

My wife has a similar pattern. She seems to cast all of our interactions as a contest, with a winner and loser. If I suggest doing something, I'm controlling her, and if she agrees, she's letting me "win." (This is bad, apparently.) If I don't suggest doing anything, then I'm making her do all the work, which also means I "win." We can agree to do something, but then it will break down because I have an idea for how to do it, or I ask her how to do it, and we're back to me "winning."

Example ... .the house was in need of cleaning. We had a planning meeting to discuss what to do over the weekend, and I suggested cleaning the house. (She demands these meetings, because she says if we don't plan in advance, she will have meltdowns all weekend. Of course, she often dysregulates during the planning meetings, or she gets angry because I haven't planned for the planning meeting, or she melts down over the weekend because the planning was not down to the minute or things didn't go exactly according to plan... .you get the idea.)

Anyway. So, we've agreed to clean the house. I said I'd put together a chore list and make it interactive so as to engage our daughter, who greets the idea of house-cleaning about the way you'd expect a child of nine would. The weekend comes, and we sit down to divvy up the chores. I pull out a list of chores that we can cut up like game pieces and put on a board to divide up the work. I'm figuring making it more interactive and game-like will engage our daughter.

My wife melts down. She says I hadn't told her about the chore list, and it was something we needed to decide together, so once again I am in control and I win. I try to backpedal, to defend, to say I am open to alternatives, but it's too late. Explosion. I "win." The house does not get cleaned.

The irony is I'd be happy to let her be in control -- except when she's in control, she doesn't do anything, and blames me for not taking the initiative.

My wife is also in a DBT program. I don't know if it's working. So far, she seems to be weaponizing the program -- using the tools to argue that I'm treating her wrong and that I can't have boundaries, and using her participation in the program to claim that she's made all the hard changes and the rest is up to me.

Sigh. 

[formflier]

And what is "die out"? I find a lot of his conversations this weekend had to do with blaming me for all sorts of things I had no idea he even thought. Things that happened long ago. He brought up that I "just sat there, and didn't talk to any of his family" at an event

Die out means he will blame less frequently because it is not working for him anymore.

The dynamic that I am seeing is that he blames and you listen or otherwise participate.

If the blaming is bugging you... .(and it bugs me... .bigtime when my wife does this).  I will say something like "Sorry you feel that way... ." and go to another room.

If she persists I directly say "I"m not able to have a conversation about blame right now.  I'd love to talk to you about other things or I can let you be by yourself for a bit.  What would you rather I do... ?

She rarely picks... .most of the time claims she wasn't blaming.

Anyway... .CB... .I see two paths. 

1.  Trying to find a validation target and validate during the "blame game"

2.  Taking your ears elsewhere and leave him to sort out blame by himself.

Which do you think would be more effective in helping you feel better about the situation?

FF

[unicorn2014]

Hi Cerulean Blue

He did say he was feeling rather shaky, and sick that day, day four of being off his meds. And no, his doctor does not know he went off them cold turkey. I don't even know why he did that.

That in and of itself is cause for concern. Would it be possible for you to say to him that you think going off his meds cold turkey is causing problems for him and for you? That sounds like a really difficult situation. DBT does not work unless you work it, so to speak. It sounds like your h does not want to get better right now.

[Ceruleanblue]

My wife is also in a DBT program. I don't know if it's working. So far, she seems to be weaponizing the program -- using the tools to argue that I'm treating her wrong and that I can't have boundaries, and using her participation in the program to claim that she's made all the hard changes and the rest is up to me.

Wow, I'm familiar with this! I really got the picture that BPDh was using his time in DBT to vilify me to his T, because he'd come home saying "my T says what you did was wrong", blah, blah, blah. Little does DBT T know what a complete liar he is, and how his perceptions tend to be totally off, and how if he doesn't outright lie, he twists the truth, or leaves out parts that make HIM look bad. You'd think someone doing DBT would know better, but I've read that pwBPD can even fool experts at times. His DBT T, has been "let go" as of this week, they say due to her letting her license lapse, and I have to admit, I'm glad.

It sure does feel crappy when they use the DBT therapy to build a case against you. I mean, they so don't want to look at their own issues, and all they want to see is what we are doing, or how they can wiggle out of their diagnosis. I'm sure not all in DBT are like that, but I do know BPDh seems to be. He hasn't gone to his DBT therapy in almost a month, and after being off his meds for four days, he's less than a treat to be with.

Formflier: I'm going to use your suggested ideas. Probably both, at different times. I can almost always find something to validate, but with BPDh, validation has never seemed to be super effective, sadly. I was so hoping that would be a magic bullet because I'm pretty good at it, but no, he sort of wants the whole enchilada, to feel I agree he's completely right. Or let him have total control. So I guess I'll try both, and see which works best. I have a feeling it will be option two of not listening to the blame game, and just walking away.

He's back on his meds now. I know Wellbutrin is an antidepressant, and builds up for full effectiveness. He's on such a high dose, that I know going off cold turkey probably explains the awful four days. How long will it take for him to level back out(not that I think the Wellbutrin does a lot for him, but still... .)?

[formflier]

  I can almost always find something to validate, but with BPDh, validation has never seemed to be super effective, sadly. 

I'm with you on this.  Every once in a while it will seem like my validation efforts "find" their mark.  Usually it seems to bounce off.

I was trying to find a validation target a week or so ago and was asking about her feelings... .her response "Feelings don't matter... .all that matters is what YOU do!" 

This was during one of her rants about me being lazy... .NEVER doing anything... .etc etc

Hang in there CB!  Hoping his meds kick back in and things calm down a bit for you.

FF

[Beacher]

What is " JADE" ?

[formflier]

What is " JADE" ?

Justify

Argue

Defend

Explain

If you are doing all... .or any one of those things with a pwBPD... .be careful.

Especially if they are dysregulated.

FF

[flourdust]

  I can almost always find something to validate, but with BPDh, validation has never seemed to be super effective, sadly. 

I'm with you on this.  Every once in a while it will seem like my validation efforts "find" their mark.  Usually it seems to bounce off.

Same here. At least the self-validating works. I can tell myself that even if my validation didn't calm her, it's better that my mouth was validating rather than JADE-ing. In other words, validating didn't make things better, but it prevented me from making things worse.