Acceptance and grief

[unicorn2014]

Hello everyone   welcome to the newcomers

Just finished another workshop on acceptance and grief, figured I would start a new thread as that one hadn't been posted in since 2012.

I think a lot of us "nons" (meaning we are the one posting not the one being posted about  ) tend to blame the other person for our problems. The fact of the matter is its how I react to the other person that creates my problems. Sure the other person brings things to me that no one should have to deal with but because I am adult choosing to engage in a relationship with another adult the onus is on me as to how I respond.

So this gets to the acceptance and grief part. It took what it took to get where I'm at. Now it looks like  the workshop is about accepting the BPD behavior for what it is. I think for me the acceptance is that I don't have the perfect relationship but parts of it work and because of that I am choosing to stay in the hopes that it gets better, which in my case would mean my partner having a divorce filing on record so I would feel comfortable with him moving out to my area. I never wanted to be in a long term long distance relationship. Its been going on 3 years now. However I also don't want my partner bringing the kind of legal drama he's involved in his state over to my state. That stuff needs to stay behind.

We had a very interesting conversation today where he shared with me why his soon to be ex wife didn't meet his needs. I marveled at how comfortable and confident he was at expressing his needs, even when those needs seemed to trample over the rights of other people. However I learned something from that, I should feel just as comfortable and confident expressing my needs to him as he is expressing his needs to me. That is just one of the things that I am learning to accept. Nobody but me can meet my own needs, meaning to say I am the only one who can voice my needs. Nobody else can do that for me. Would it be easier to do that with someone else? I do not know, my first husband had untreated bipolar, my father had traits of narcissism and my fiancé has traits of borderline. I do not know what normal or healthy or functional is. However I do know that those are the men that have seen fit to be or have been in my life so that is what I have to deal with.

I hope this makes sense. Its late, but I wanted to get the ball rolling on this one.

[brazbeliever]

It isn't easy to take our share on the relationship. But it is the best way to improve it or to make up our minds whether to stay or leave, I guess. I`m facing this dilemma myself. Of course its important to open up and share your feelings with your loved one, but in my case, I have a particular feeling that every time that I do this its not like my BPD gf does not listen or care, but its like she has her own peculiar way on doing so. And this is far behind of what I usually need or expect. I don't know if Im expecting too much... .

I don't know if other relationships tend to meet this expectations, but as far as I heard at least they tend to be less exhausting.

[babyducks]

hi unicorn,

I know you have already seen this link but I thought I would put it in your thread to save others from having to search for it.

Radical Acceptance

This is from that thread.

When faced with a painful situation, you really have only 4 options:

* Solve the problem.

* Change how you feel about the problem.

* Accept it.

* Stay miserable; continue to be a victim.


Everyone feels pain. It is part of life to experience painful moments. We grow and learn from the pain we endure. Many times we fight against it and say to ourselves "this isn't fair".  Yeah, it may not be, but by fighting against it, you aren't working through it. The very fact that you are judging it as "not right" or "unfair" means that you aren't accepting it. Yeah, it hurts. Yeah, it isn't your fault. Yeah, things can be better. Accepting the reality allows the pain to go away. Dwelling on the unfairness only keeps you stuck in your misery.

Pain + non acceptance = suffering.

Reality is what it is

Everything has a cause

Life can be worth living - even when there is pain in it.

'ducks

[OnceConfused]

An excerpt from Psychology today about Radical Acceptance:

One of the four options you have for any problem is Radical Acceptance (Linehan, 1993). Radical acceptance is about accepting of life on life’s terms and not resisting what you cannot or choose not to change. Radical Acceptance is about saying yes to life, just as it is.

Imagine that you talk with an apartment manager about leasing an apartment in a popular complex that is completely full. He agrees to call you when the two-bedroom apartment is available. You wait for months, then stop by to check with him. When you arrive he is signing a lease agreement with a couple for a two-bedroom unit.  When you confront him, he shrugs. That shouldn’t happen. It isn’t fair. And it did happen.

The pain is the loss of an apartment that you really wanted. You may feel sad and hurt. Suffering is what you do with that pain and the interpretation you put on the pain. Suffering is optional; pain is not.

It’s difficult to accept what you don’t want to be true. And it’s more difficult to not accept. Not accepting pain brings suffering.

Refusing to Accept Reality

People often say, “I can’t stand this,” “This isn’t fair,” “This can’t be true,” and “This shouldn’t be this way.” It’s almost as if we think refusing to accept the truth will keep it from being true or that accepting means agreeing. Accepting doesn’t mean agreeing.


I might want to add another dimension to this model, that is "TO RELIEVE SUFFERING WE CAN ACCEPT THE PAIN WHICH IS SOMETHING ALREADY HAPPENED AND UNAVOIDABLE, FOR EXAMPLE: LOSS OF LIFE, LOSS OF JOBS. BUT WILL OUR SUFFERING STOPS WHEN WE EVEN ACCEPT THE AVOIDABLE PAIN OF THE FUTURE? FOR EXAMPLE, ONE IS BURNT BY A HOT STOVE, SO IF ONE KEEPS GOING BACK AND TOUCHES THE HOT STOVE, KNOWING THE HOT STOVE CAN BURN AGAIN, IS THAT RADICAL ACCEPTANCE RELIEVES FUTURE SUFFERING?

Back to BPD, if I accept the behavior of my xBPDgf as no big deal, she just does what she truly is.  Then if I stay, and continually am subjected to BPD behavior or abuses, then will i be happy in the next 5, 10, 15, or 20 years ? I beg NOT, especially when I have a choice of going where I am valued and wanted and I won't have to worry about "walking on eggshells" for the rest of my life or living in a HIGH CONFLICT relationship. I can radically accept the xBPDgf for what and who she is, but will I radically accept my unhappiness for not being who I am? That answer is up for debate.

[Sunfl0wer]

So this gets to the acceptance and grief part. It took what it took to get where I'm at. Now it looks like  the workshop is about accepting the BPD behavior for what it is. I think for me the acceptance is that I don't have the perfect relationship but parts of it work and because of that I am choosing to stay in the hopes that it gets better, ... .

I wonder about this.  I am currently single, however, looking back I realize I often stayed in a dysfunctional r/s for the hope of it getting better, for what I felt the r/s could be.

I wonder if part of grief and acceptance is grieving the loss of the r/s I was presented with before the mask fell off, and accepting that what the r/s actually is at this moment, including all good and bad things that are evident, is all the r/s actually may ever be, then finding happiness in accepting this reality as the "real" reality for the r/s moving forward.  Vs moving forward hoping things will change.

Where I struggle is that I am a person who values positive change.  I feel that I myself am always changing and growing, so I naturally would expect a r/s I am in, for us both to grow, change and mature together.  So I enter a r/s with an expectation of positive emotional growth.  It appears my partner initially is also capable of and demonstrated such growth in his past.  However, often that is part of the mask initially presented.

[unicorn2014]

It isn't easy to take our share on the relationship. But it is the best way to improve it or to make up our minds whether to stay or leave, I guess. I`m facing this dilemma myself. Of course its important to open up and share your feelings with your loved one, but in my case, I have a particular feeling that every time that I do this its not like my BPD gf does not listen or care, but its like she has her own peculiar way on doing so. And this is far behind of what I usually need or expect. I don't know if Im expecting too much... .

I don't know if other relationships tend to meet this expectations, but as far as I heard at least they tend to be less exhausting.

Hi brazbeliever   and welcome to BPD family!   Thank you for posting on my thread!

We have to be careful what we share with our BPD loved ones because they can use it against us in a time of emotional dysregulation. The next topic I will be looking at will be dealing with emotional blackmail which is something that characterizes BPD relationships. Yes, they are a lot of work, which is one of the things that a person needs to take into consideration when they are evaluating their relationship. It is definitely one of the things I am considering. I've been in the relationship for 3+ years and I'm definitely feeling burnt out on the amount of work it takes to keep it going. Its long distance and I'm also raising a teen daughter on my own, so I'm not really in the mood for a high maintenance relationship anymore.

[unicorn2014]

 

hi unicorn,

I know you have already seen this link but I thought I would put it in your thread to save others from having to search for it.

Radical Acceptance

Thank you baby ducks, my former therapist actually gave me a print out of that chart you copied and pasted, as well as my former dbt classes. I think I'll tape it to my wall since that is what

I'm struggling with right now.

[unicorn2014]

Back to BPD, if I accept the behavior of my xBPDgf as no big deal, she just does what she truly is.  Then if I stay, and continually am subjected to BPD behavior or abuses, then will i be happy in the next 5, 10, 15, or 20 years ? I beg NOT, especially when I have a choice of going where I am valued and wanted and I won't have to worry about "walking on eggshells" for the rest of my life or living in a HIGH CONFLICT relationship. I can radically accept the xBPDgf for what and who she is, but will I radically accept my unhappiness for not being who I am? That answer is up for debate.

Hi once confused and thank you for your post. May I ask who's choice it was to terminate your former  relationship?

I am leaning towards the staying side because my partner does value and want me for who I am and I know I have the tools and the power and the strength to reduce the conflict in my relationship. My previous marriage was high conflict too and my child's father had bipolar and alcohol and drug addiction, not BPD. I am the common element in those two relationships. In addition I used to argue a lot with my father, who has narcissistic traits. If I didn't think it was possible to reduce the conflict I would leave. I've seen a reduction in the conflict by the application of communication techniques based on the gottman method and emotional focused therapy that my former therapist gave me to use with my partner and that I have shared with my partner.

[unicorn2014]

I wonder about this.  I am currently single, however, looking back I realize I often stayed in a dysfunctional r/s for the hope of it getting better, for what I felt the r/s could be.

Hi Sunflower, thank you for reading and replying to my thread. I know the relationship can get it better if I work at it. The question is do I want to stay in a relationship that is so much work? Now, my most recent therapist told me that all relationships are work, so that is something I have to accept.

I wonder if part of grief and acceptance is grieving the loss of the r/s I was presented with before the mask fell off, and accepting that what the r/s actually is at this moment, including all good and bad things that are evident, is all the r/s actually may ever be, then finding happiness in accepting this reality as the "real" reality for the r/s moving forward.  Vs moving forward hoping things will change.

That may be true except for the fact that my partner did not present a mask when he first met me. Also, in my case my relationship will get better once my partner moves out to my location and has his own place. A lot of the problems are because it is long distance, and because he is going through a very complicated divorce that is really getting on my nerves. I can't blame him for how difficult his soon to be ex wife is. I'm not happy that he didn't give me a straight answer when I asked him if he was married, but there is a grain of truth to what he said about not feeling married. His soon to be ex wife knew about me before I knew about her and she not only didn't ask him to stop talking to me, she didn't ask me to stop talking to him. In fact she didn't introduce herself until much later under the guise of his name. So obviously there's problems with that relationship. Do you appreciate being dragged into it? Not at all. But did he 100% lie to me about not being married? Not if we take into consideration the behavior of his soon to be ex wife. My partner and I are much more similar in that department, we are very conservative with members of the opposite sex, we do not flirt, nor engage in private emotionally intimate relationships with members of the opposite sex, and that is a mutual agreement we both have that meets our mutual needs.

Where I struggle is that I am a person who values positive change.  I feel that I myself am always changing and growing, so I naturally would expect a r/s I am in, for us both to grow, change and mature together.  So I enter a r/s with an expectation of positive emotional growth.  It appears my partner initially is also capable of and demonstrated such growth in his past.  However, often that is part of the mask initially presented.

I really appreciate what you are saying here. For me the positive growth and change came much later in the relationship, like now. The conflict has been severely reduced and he and I both agreed to use the repair checklist of the gottman method when talking about difficult subjects. He's come a long way. When my former therapist first presented the idea of the horsemen he was opposed to that, but now he accepts as true that he stonewalls. You see, progress has been made!

[OnceConfused]

I am not quite sure as to whose choice it was to terminate my r.s with xBPDgf. But, i was the one who looked her straight in the eyes and said , "good bye.". In my estimation, the demise of our r.s occurred over several month period. here is a brief history.

After about 2 months of knowing her as we became quickly intimate, her actions went from being a super nice and sweet person to a person who was easily triggered by any little things I did or said, but then she would pull me back in like nothing had happened. Because of that confusion, I sought out therapy and luckily my T thought right away about BPD. (the T didnot push me to stay or leave, but she kept on GENTLY giving words like - this is a very risky relationship & her best line to me - she might be Ms. Right but She is not MRS. RIGHT-NOW). I began to read more and more about BPD, and until I read the book called "Stop walking on eggshells" and an article labeled ,"How do you know you are dating a loser?", I then put together  the whole puzzle of BPD (how she dealt with my children, how she continued to call/contact the Xbfs, how she would suddendly go into a silen rage , and how we broke up almost on a weekly basis).

Even with those knowledge, I was not able to leave because of my attaching mind as she continued to have sex with me on a regular basis. I was given the false hope that her sweet self would somehow magically reappear. One time I went to Europe for 2 weeks with my children and on the second day I called back from Paris and she was cold. I could not understand why so when I got back I found out she had asked a guy whom she just knew for about 2 weeks to come over and took her out for a date. She even had him driving her to her sister house to show off this guy and his Mercedes.

Then by the hand of God and by the spirit of my late wife, I wandered into a local library branch and found a CD called by Dr. Wayne Dyer, STAYING THE PATH. The CD is about 1 hour of words of wisdom to which I listened and relistened for 2 weeks straight. Finally those words of wisdom sank into my subconsciousness, helping me to see my attachment. I began the exit strategy and within 3 weeks I was able to look her in the eyes and said good bye.

Back to your life circumstance, I think your decision to stay in the r.s. is yours to make, but I hope you base your decisions on several factors:

1. What are his BPD behaviors? Can they be changed to an acceptable level to you in term of severity and frequency?

2. Any changes must begin with a self awareness of one's feeling. Because once we are aware of our feeling, happy - angry ... ., and bring them from subconsciousness into the consciousness then we can control them. So the factor is - can he or is he willing to do something to gain the awareness (like with DBT or therapy) and is he willing to change so as to make you happier? .

3. His history ... .why did he not wanting to be with his wife now ? of course, he will blame his now wife for all the downfall but there are always 2 sides to a story. Your job is to find out the truth. My xBPDgf blamed her xh as the abuser, and guess what she did exactly the same to me - go figure. Those who do not watch history , will doom to repeat it.

4. You can use lots of techniques to like communication strategy or whatever, but in order for you to be happy and satisfied in a r.s you have to be both the giver and the taker. If you are the giver and not receiver back something from him, your love engine will soon run dry. Again, Love is a 2 way street. The question is can your fiance give out love?

[unicorn2014]

Back to your life circumstance, I think your decision to stay in the r.s. is yours to make, but I hope you base your decisions on several factors:

1. What are his BPD behaviors? Can they be changed to an acceptable level to you in term of severity and frequency?

Thank you for sharing your story once confused. What do you think your part in the r/s was?

As far as your question goes, I think I need to back up the decision making process to stop the bleeding, so i will look at the BPD behaviors listed there and write about those.

2. Any changes must begin with a self awareness of one's feeling. Because once we are aware of our feeling, happy - angry ... ., and bring them from subconsciousness into the consciousness then we can control them. So the factor is - can he or is he willing to do something to gain the awareness (like with DBT or therapy) and is he willing to change so as to make you happier? .

My understanding is happiness is an inside job.

I will answer your other 2 questions in a separate post.

[OnceConfused]

what was my part in the r/s w the xBPDgf?

I guess you mean what I did to trigger her BPD, right?

I was a widower for 1 year with 3  young daughters when I met the XBPD.  I was 50 yrs old , well established in the community, have my own business, and I thought she was a long lost soul mate as she wrote poems, liked what I was doing. Well, little did I know that she was fishing with both hands. One hand she was with her then boy friend, and on the other she scooped me up. I think she used me as a way to fill the void, and that would help her getting rid of the other bf (emotionally). 

It turned out she used many of her bfs. Anyone who were involved with her, did some stuffs free to her house. She was sweet in a way to con me into loaning her 25k to finish the job the other bf  could not finish. Once I loaned her the money and the house was finished, she did not even want me to come to her house warming party. Finally, she invited me and my children. When my children came, she greeted them at the door and then walked away, not even showing them the food table. My kids felt weird so they left within 15 minutes. I stayed but she avoided introducing me to her male co-workers - I think she was trying to portrait an image of an available woman.

Like I said, BPD was so bizarre and selfish. One evening I was talking with a school board member in her family room about the situation of my daughter, from her bed room she called me on the phone so as to interrupt my conversation. I thought it was a rude act, esp. when I was dealing with my child's problem.

The final nail into the coffin was the fact that she had consulted her xbf , a lawyer, about my estate. So she told me she would not sign a prenup and I cannot transfer my late wifes' 401k to my children in case of my death. The reason given was I was an old man, I was sick and she would have to take care of me and I would leave her high and dry. Let's not forget this woman made about 100K a year as a pharmacist. And she ended the phone call by calling my daughters, "b*tches".

Some one gave me a word of wisdom, that is can I visualize being with the xBPDgf for the 5, 10 , or 20 years and be happy. I sincerely cannot see that reality.

[unicorn2014]

3. His history ... .why did he not wanting to be with his wife now ? of course, he will blame his now wife for all the downfall but there are always 2 sides to a story. Your job is to find out the truth. My xBPDgf blamed her xh as the abuser, and guess what she did exactly the same to me - go figure. Those who do not watch history , will doom to repeat it.

This is the second time he is divorcing his wife. He did not want to be with her because he says she didn't act like a wife, she emotionally abandoned him, she didn't have boundaries with him.

4. You can use lots of techniques to like communication strategy or whatever, but in order for you to be happy and satisfied in a r.s you have to be both the giver and the taker. If you are the giver and not receiver back something from him, your love engine will soon run dry. Again, Love is a 2 way street. The question is can your fiance give out love?

Yes my fiancé can give out love which is one of the reasons why I'm not ready to leave the relationship yet. I think someone else said on another thread that he was not ready to leave his r/s, and this was after they broke up. My fiancé and I are still together so I'm even less ready to leave.

[unicorn2014]

what was my part in the r/s w the xBPDgf?

I guess you mean what I did to trigger her BPD, right?

No, not at all. I mean you said you had sex with her pretty early on and you continued to have sex with her after you noticed she had BPD traits and that you knew that that triggered the attaching mind. I was more talking about your contribution to the relationship.


It sounded like you had a really rough time and I don't blame you for how you feeling.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi Sunflower, thank you for reading and replying to my thread. I know the relationship can may get it better if I work at it. The question is do I want to stay in a relationship that is so much work? Now, my most recent therapist told me that all relationships are work, so that is something I have to accept.

It sounds to me that you are working at it, and maybe it will get better with some more or concentrated efforts on your part.  Your effort is not the only factor at play though to things improving... .or not improving.

That may be true except for the fact that my partner likely/color] did not present a mask when he first met me.

possibly

Also, in my case my relationship will get better once my partner moves out to my location and has his own place. A lot of the problems are because it is long distance, and because he is going through a very complicated divorce that is really getting on my nerves. I can't blame him for how difficult his soon to be ex wife is. I'm not happy that he didn't give me a straight answer when I asked him if he was married, but there is a grain of truth to what he said about not feeling married. His soon to be ex wife knew about me before I knew about her and she not only didn't ask him to stop talking to me, she didn't ask me to stop talking to him. In fact she didn't introduce herself until much later under the guise of his name. So obviously there's problems with that relationship. Do you appreciate being dragged into it? Not at all. But did he 100% lie to me about not being married? Not if we take into consideration the behavior of his soon to be ex wife. My partner and I are much more similar in that department, we are very conservative with members of the opposite sex, we do not flirt, nor engage in private emotionally intimate relationships with members of the opposite sex, and that is a mutual agreement we both have that meets our mutual needs.

Where I struggle is that I am a person who values positive change.  I feel that I myself am always changing and growing, so I naturally would expect a r/s I am in, for us both to grow, change and mature together.  So I enter a r/s with an expectation of positive emotional growth.  It appears my partner initially is also capable of and demonstrated such growth in his past.  However, often that is part of the mask initially presented.

I really appreciate what you are saying here. For me the positive growth and change came much later in the relationship, like now. The conflict has been severely reduced and he and I both agreed to use the repair checklist of the gottman method when talking about difficult subjects. He's come a long way. When my former therapist first presented the idea of the horsemen he was opposed to that, but now he accepts as true that he stonewalls. You see, progress has been made!

[unicorn2014]

Hi Sunflower, could you reformat that? Its a bit hard to follow. Thank you 

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi Sunflower, could you reformat that? Its a bit hard to follow. Thank you 

Omg! You gotta be kidding me... .i hit save vs preview to check the quoting effort... .then spent a zillion minutes... .then erased.  Ugh! Darn device!  I shoulda used laptop to cut paste from a text doc.

I'll try again!

[unicorn2014]

Hi Sunflower, could you reformat that? Its a bit hard to follow. Thank you 

Omg! You gotta be kidding me... .i hit save vs preview to check the quoting effort... .then spent a zillion minutes... .then erased.  Ugh! Darn device!  I shoulda used laptop to cut paste from a text doc.

I'll try again!

Ok, thank you, I do want to respond! I try to save my responses for when I get home to my laptop since I find posting on my phone too small

[Sunfl0wer]

I am so sorry, i just rewrote it... .and my finger accidentall swipe the upper tab, then the info is gone when I came back.

So sorry!   Please erase my last 3 messy posts from here moderators!

I will try to try again tomorrow.

No more IPAD writing where stuff swipes away!  I'll use laptop for long replies!

  hugs for now!

[unicorn2014]

I am so sorry, i just rewrote it... .and my finger accidentall swipe the upper tab, then the info is gone when I came back.

So sorry!   Please erase my last 3 messy posts from here moderators!

I will try to try again tomorrow.

No more IPAD writing where stuff swipes away!  I'll use laptop for long replies!

  hugs for now!

Thank you sunflower, its ok, I appreciate the effort!  I just read through the post on the FOG and was thinking about writing about that but I'm not ready to do that yet, so I'll read the next one in the decision making guidelines. Thanks for your input! 

[babyducks]

I might want to add another dimension to this model, that is "TO RELIEVE SUFFERING WE CAN ACCEPT THE PAIN WHICH IS SOMETHING ALREADY HAPPENED AND UNAVOIDABLE, FOR EXAMPLE: LOSS OF LIFE, LOSS OF JOBS. BUT WILL OUR SUFFERING STOPS WHEN WE EVEN ACCEPT THE AVOIDABLE PAIN OF THE FUTURE? FOR EXAMPLE, ONE IS BURNT BY A HOT STOVE, SO IF ONE KEEPS GOING BACK AND TOUCHES THE HOT STOVE, KNOWING THE HOT STOVE CAN BURN AGAIN, IS THAT RADICAL ACCEPTANCE RELIEVES FUTURE SUFFERING?

Here is my perspective on the stove thought exercise,

Accept the stove as a stove.  It's not evil.   It's not a monster.   It will never change to be a jukebox.  It will, at times and in places,  be hot because it's a stove but not because it's setting out to burn me.

Accept that I have a desire/need to touch the stove.  If I didn't we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Accept the tension between these two things.

Acceptance doesn't mean being a doormat, or accepting unmitigated risk.   My next step in the stove thought exercise might be:

accept that I can not live with a hot stove glowing next to me because I don't feel comfortable

OR

accept that I will need to learn how to work with the stove and how to step away before I get burnt.

as I see it what I loose here is the suffering of waiting for the stove to change into a jukebox.  I also loose the suffering of being angry at the stove for being a stove.

I also think that regardless of which path I choose,  not living next to a glowing stove or learning to walk away before the stove burns me,  while I have the pain of making that decision I don't have ongoing agony of ruminating over the decision.   I see them as two separate things.

'ducks

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi Sunflower, thank you for reading and replying to my thread. I know the relationship can may get it better if I work at it. The question is do I want to stay in a relationship that is so much work? Now, my most recent therapist told me that all relationships are work, so that is something I have to accept.

It sounds to me that you are working diligently at it, and maybe it will get better with some more or concentrated efforts on your part.  However, your effort is not the only factor at play to the outcome. _{There are more factors involved, and even if it was a simple as only your effort alone, success would not be a given.} (RA here maybe?)

That may be true except for the fact that my partner likely did not present a mask when he first met me.

Possibly. If we all knew when we were presented with a mask, I am not certain it would be called "a mask."  Maintaining a mask over a longer period of time is even easier when there is a LDR. So maybe your partner did not "put his best foot forward," but rather showed you the "real" him, warts and all, maybe not.

-This is a feeling or opinion that you have, not a fact.

_{For example:  I had a male friend for over 15 years, we met in college, I though he was the "safest" person ever to date as I "really" knew him. After living with him 4 months, I saw a side I never in a million years would have believed existed in this man.  He was generally gentle, quiet, etc.  However, one day, something in him was triggered after I denied sex and he attacked me to rape me. A most unusual and bizarre experience of my life.  I am sure none of our friends would ever imagine or believe it. I am honestly still dumbfounded to think of it.  My point: I will never assume that my opinion of another person is, or is capable of is a "fact."  I now maybe more cynically assume that we are all human and mostly all capable of the same range of abilities as any other human.  Who is to say that under a specific brain chemistry, genetic predisposition, and upbringing, that I would not have also turned out to be "an attacker" or anything else in the range of human possibilities?}

Also, in my case my relationship will may get better once my partner moves out to my location and has his own place. A lot of the problems are because it is long distance... .

Maybe, maybe not.

Often it is the case, especially in the case of persons with attachment issues (as you indicate he has) that closer proximity may bring forth a whole new set of issues that you two have yet to discover.  So while, yes, some obvious issues may no longer be an issue, there is another side to consider along this one.

The RA is that: moving DOES NOT= r/s will improve.

Rather: Moving = the r/s will be faced with a period of change and adjustment. Change and adjustment may facilitate positive growth, may alleviate some stressors, or cause more complications, or may have a more overall neutral affect, or some combo result.

... .and because he is going through a very complicated divorce that is really getting on my nerves. I can't blame him for how difficult his soon to be ex wife is.

I hear that you are being challenged by his r/s with his (ex)wife.  That is completely understandable and certainly does complicate your position and r/s witht this man.  It sounds like you are trying to be patient and compassionate towards him.

I'm not happy that he didn't give me a straight answer when I asked him if he was married, but there is a grain of truth to what he said about not feeling married.

Sounds to me that there is some mixing up of facts and feelings in this r/s.  Just pointing it out so you can do your best to remain "flea-free."  I imagine your intent in asking him was to find out if he was factually married. The most loving behavior he could have taken would be behavior of continuous complete transparency regarding his marital status.  Rather, he has taken the opposite approach of being unclear and uncertain. After hearing this, my focus naturally shifts to the dynamic between you two rather than "the fact" of whether he is indeed married or not.  This dynamic is note worthy and likely to resurface in years to come.

Unicorn - has a serious and valid concern that the entire foundation of the relationship rests upon.

Partner - does not address concern (under the guise of just making a mistake in the reply given or something)

Unicorn - repeats the concern after finding out through public record a discrepancy in her understanding

Partner - Does not offer actual reassurance, goes on either defense or offense, avoids offering satisfactory response to a valid, reasonable request. Dismisses Unicorns emotional/relationship wants and needs as invalid by refusing to present proof via lawyer.

I am concerned that he did not "turn toward you" (as you turned towards him in an act of compassion) for this confrontation to work with you to use this as an opportunity to alleviate some tension and easily remedy the stress with a simple lawyer phone call or fax of documentation. I am concerned that his approach to manage a conflict that is a huge direct threat to the relationship is being handled callously towards you. While events around us change external to the relationship, the way we manage them as a couple, often remains and repeats itself. 

What do you hear his behavior communicating to you about who he is?

Unicorn, from my observations here, you appear to be a positive, strong, and resilient person who is trying hard to make good effective use of all resources, and making excellent progress and insights with it all.  I have great respect for you for being able to face such tough and sensitive topics here. I admit that if it were me, I would have needed a long breather from many of the threads on many occasions.

Sometimes, to a fault of my own, I can be rather blunt.  However, I hope that my message will be warmly received as my intent is to share another angle to the situation in hopes something may be helpful for the growth of all.

Much Warmth,

~Sunflower



PS.  Thank you for mentioning the Gottman's approach.  I have looked it up and looks like good stuff for me to reflect on.

[unicorn2014]

Hi Sunflower, thank you for reading and replying to my thread. I know the relationship can may get it better if I work at it. The question is do I want to stay in a relationship that is so much work? Now, my most recent therapist told me that all relationships are work, so that is something I have to accept.

It sounds to me that you are working diligently at it, and maybe it will get better with some more or concentrated efforts on your part.  However, your effort is not the only factor at play to the outcome. _{There are more factors involved, and even if it was a simple as only your effort alone, success would not be a given.} (RA here maybe?)

Hi sunflower thank you for posting. I tried to reply with a quote but I did not get the formatting right so I will try again later with a straight reply. Thank you so much for your post.

[unicorn2014]

Hi sunflower, ok, let's get to work!

I think right now I'm not so concerned about the outcome, I'm more concerned with how much of my anger  I can share with my partner.

My partner pretty much displayed borderline behavior from the start, he didn't know there was anything wrong with it, so he didn't think to hide it. It wasn't until I started talking to him about borderline that he realized his behavior was dysfunctional.

He is the one who told me he never attached to anyone but me. He is also the one who thinks our r/s will improve when he relocates. I think we're in a high conflict r/s, he doesn't.

In terms of his soon to be ex wife, yes, I am really sick and tired of it. She is dragging the divorce out to be vindictive.

In terms of why I asked him if he was married, our conversation was starting to get really intimate really fast and if he was married it would've been inappropriate , however, had I not been involved in a conversation like that I wouldn't have had to ask him that question.

My partner maintains that he did not make a mistake in his reply, that his stbx did not act like a wife therefore he didn't think he was married, however he has apologized many times for what he did and recognizes it was wrong.

My concern about there being no divorce filing on record is different. I chose to continue with him when I found out he was married because he told me he was filing for divorce. He did indeed refuse to show me the papers which is why I looked him up and he did indeed refuse to have his lawyer call me which is why I tried to set a boundary with him, which I failed to uphold.

It sounds like his lawyer might have committed fraud against him.

What his behavior is communicating to me about who he is : he bit off more then he could chew, his stbx is being very difficult, a lot of people didn't do their jobs that he was depending on, he's not as independent as he thinks he is, possibly.

You are the least blunt of almost all the posters! Thank you for your thoughtfulness!

[OnceConfused]

i would have a very HARD time believing his lawyer committed a fraud against him for NOT filing the court paper for over 3 years.  Did he ever notice once in those long 3 yrs that no court date was set ? For a lawyer , that omission could be construed as negligence and subject to discipline by the BAR. The filing never took place nor it was asked of his lawyer.

You are trying very hard to find excuses for him for something as serious.

I also have not heard such an explanation that one is not considered married because the spouse did not act like a spouse. So in the future, if he is married to you and for some reasons, you get into some serious fights , he can go out there and be with other women while claiming he is single. INTERESTING ARGUMENT.

How can you trust the man after such a big boo-boo?

[unicorn2014]

i would have a very HARD time believing his lawyer committed a fraud against him for NOT filing the court paper for over 3 years.  Did he ever notice once in those long 3 yrs that no court date was set ? For a lawyer , that omission could be construed as negligence and subject to discipline by the BAR. The filing never took place nor it was asked of his lawyer.

Exactly. He filed, then withdrew to file bankruptcy, then filed again at my insistence. That is what he said.

You are trying very hard to find excuses for him for something as serious.

Actually I'm telling you what he told me. Those aren't excuses.

I also have not heard such an explanation that one is not considered married because the spouse did not act like a spouse. So in the future, if he is married to you and for some reasons, you get into some serious fights , he can go out there and be with other women while claiming he is single. INTERESTING ARGUMENT.

He's not interested in being with other women so we won't be having that problem. He didn't say he was single, he said his wife was allowing him to talk to me and she shouldn't have. I didn't understand that's what he was saying until later.

How can you trust the man after such a big boo-boo?

I can trust him because he and I share calendars, locations, phone calls, text messages, FaceTime, he talks to my parents and my daughter independently. Everyone that is in recovery knows that they are dishonest. It is part of the human condition. I think I once read somewhere that sometimes you have to accept that your partner lies, and that wasn't even regarding borderline.

[myself]

It sounds like he's making the excuses and you're learning to accept them.

If and when he files this time, is he feeling forced to? Is that healthy?

I'm more concerned with how much of my anger I can share with my partner.

Anger can have many layers. What else is being stirred up?

[unicorn2014]

It sounds like he's making the excuses and you're learning to accept them.

Its not my job to determine whether or not he's making excuses, I'm not his mother. I learned in recovery that when I disagree with someone to accept what another person is saying as true for themselves.

If and when he files this time, is he feeling forced to? Is that healthy?

If he wants to be in a r/s with me he has to file for divorce. If he doesn't want to file for divorce he doesn't have to be with me. That's my boundary and I think its healthy.

I'm more concerned with how much of my anger I can share with my partner.

Anger can have many layers. What else is being stirred up?

That will probably need to be dealt with on another thread, such as one about the FOG or about rumination or not allowing someone else's negativity to exist in your head.

[Sunfl0wer]

I think right now I'm not so concerned about the outcome, I'm more concerned with how much of my anger  I can share with my partner.

What specifically is your concern?  What do you fear will happen if you share all of your anger?

My partner pretty much displayed borderline behavior from the start, he didn't know there was anything wrong with it, so he didn't think to hide it. It wasn't until I started talking to him about borderline that he realized his behavior was dysfunctional.

When I mention "mask" I do not mean simply sharing the BPD behaviors. Do you feel it is possible that he is still "putting his best foot forward?"

The reason I'm being nit picky here is that I am a firm believer that our language we use is quite powerful and shapes our "reality," how we process, and cope.

He is the one who told me he never attached to anyone but me. He is also the one who thinks our r/s will improve when he relocates. I think we're in a high conflict r/s, he doesn't.

These things are important. Many of your language suggests that you are focusing on his words rather his actions and his behaviors. 

In my experience, I have learned that, especially with PD persons, that it is wisest to focus almost exclusively on behaviors. 

How do you feel about the fact that you have identified the r/s as high conflict, however, he feels it is not? What are the possibilities for his lack of perception of this? 

Are there other areas in the r/s where you two have differing perceptions of "reality?"

In terms of his soon to be ex wife, yes, I am really sick and tired of it. She is dragging the divorce out to be vindictive.

Be careful about your feelings toward his wife.

_{I have been in this situation.  My ex's ex was BPD and clearly abusing him emotionally.  I made the mistake of viewing him as a victim of her when I met him.  Years later, I see how his inability to set boundaries with her and her abuse... .really was HIS inability to set boundaries.  Hence, the reason we b/u was because of this.  He was highly functioning and his traits were not evident until we lived together.  Looking back, I wish instead of sympathizing with his abuse by her, I wish I had looked at it in terms of HIM and what he is capable of doing and not doing.  His poor behaviors with boundaries, ... .year later... .meant that he put myself, my son, and his D in harms way toward his ex wife... .because he was STILL being bullied by her years later.}

Lesson I learned:  Don't allow myself to get distracted by labeling the ex "mean."  Instead use the info to focus on my partner and what dynamics he is used to working in and may unconsciously repeat, especially a partner who is lacking in self awareness.

My partner maintains that he did not make a mistake in his reply, that his stbx did not act like a wife therefore he didn't think he was married, however he has apologized many times for what he did and recognizes it was wrong.

Again, focus on the behavior and what the behavior tells you. (not words of apology, where are the acts of apology)

When he was confronted with an opportunity to provide proof of his marital status... .

Are you satisfied with how he responded?

Focusing on how he handles himself in a similar future situation would be an appropriate way to focus on behavior vs words.

My concern about there being no divorce filing on record is different. I chose to continue with him when I found out he was married because he told me he was filing for divorce. He did indeed refuse to show me the papers which is why I looked him up and he did indeed refuse to have his lawyer call me which is why I tried to set a boundary with him, which I failed to uphold.

It sounds like his lawyer might have committed fraud against him.

It is possible that he is a victim of fraud.

What are the other possibilities?

I know you are sharp, and my question may seem elementary, however, I ask it not to sounds so... .but to reinforce my concept of the power of language and including RA.  I believe RA is not just assuming that the desirable possibility is MORE likely, but considering that all possibilities are possible at this moment... .vs hanging on to the image of "what you want" to be real.  Does that make sense to you?

What his behavior is communicating to me about who he is : he bit off more then he could chew, his stbx is being very difficult, (that is her business, your business is him and you)a lot of people didn't do their jobs that he was depending on, (NOT about him, more victimization of him)he's not as independent as he thinks he is, possibly.

So it sounds like you are recognizing he may not know his limits? 

Also that he feels more capable than he actually is?

This is a good start towards RA.

Now I'll probe further... .

What does his behavior (regarding his reaction to your upsetness over the lack of divorce record filing) say about what type of partner he is to you?  How he chooses to care for you?

Thank you for your thoughtfulness!

My pleasure, I am getting something out of this as I am finding something similar about our stories, so thank you as well. 


Warmly,

Sunflower

[patientandclear]

Unicorn, you wrote that if he wants to be in a r/ship with you he has to file for divorce. He IS in a r/ship with you. I'm guessing you mean a r/ship at close quarters.

I asked a ways back on this or another thread--do you think you'd be OK staying in the current LDR for quite a while? Because with the boundary defined at "I won't engage in anything past a LDR until you've filed," he could stand pat and keep the current arrangement going for a long time. Would that work for you?

(And yes, I realize you are also reconsidering the LDR boundary because you've realized you can't prevent him from moving--from your other thread.)