How to leave the perfect woman? ~

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I don't know where to start, but, I've got to get this thought out in the open.  I've been in an unhappy marriage for 18 years.  I have stuck to it not because of love, or illusions of love, hope, or happiness, or need, or codependency.  I stayed married because it's a contract, and I have five kids.  I hit rock bottom last year.  I've spent this year climbing back out of the hole in which I was living.  In January, I came across a description of BPD - and it struck like lightning.  My wife has at least five of the diagnostic traits for Borderline PD, and almost all the traits of Avoidant PD.  My years of unhappiness finally made sense, and I have been busy healing, and working things out.

I have been wrestling with a lot of questions, guilt, anger, sadness, but also hope.  I am on a good path now, I am reading, studying, and have been through several T sessions on my way up.  

A question that will not go unanswered is what do I do, and what's best for the kids?  

I am thinking (rambling) out loud now, but I believe that if I take care of me, and model good behavior, the kids will be better off.  For me, I see no healthy option other than to divorce.  A hurdle I am faced with right now is that to the outside, my uPBDw looks like the perfect mom.  She's a stay at home mom, though all the kids are in school.  She can put on an act like nobody else when it comes to being a martyr, too. I get compliments at church on how great she is, and how good our family is.  I recoil in disgust inside when I hear this, but, I keep up the act for now. I realize that all it takes for abuse to perpetuate is the victims stay silent.  I can't go on like this for much longer.

I am afraid of the legal system too.  As a working dad, it would be all too easy for a family court to side with a sympathetic looking mom and give primary custody of the kids to her, along with most of my income.  I would feel as though I left them in a burning building - which is only slightly an exaggeration.  How do I do this?

How to do I get my kids to freedom from a mom that only is seen by us?

[SamwizeGamgee]

I don't know where to start, but, I've got to get this thought out in the open.  I've been in an unhappy marriage for 18 years.  I have stuck to it not because of love, or illusions of love, hope, or happiness, or need, or codependency.  I stayed married because it's a contract, and I have five kids.  I hit rock bottom last year.  I've spent this year climbing back out of the hole in which I was living.  In January, I came across a description of BPD - and it struck like lightning.  My wife has at least five of the diagnostic traits for Borderline PD, and almost all the traits of Avoidant PD.  My years of unhappiness finally made sense, and I have been busy healing, and working things out.

I have been wrestling with a lot of questions, guilt, anger, sadness, but also hope.  I am on a good path now, I am reading, studying, and have been through several T sessions on my way up.  

A question that will not go unanswered is what do I do, and what's best for the kids?  

I am thinking (rambling) out loud now, but I believe that if I take care of me, and model good behavior, the kids will be better off.  For me, I see no healthy option other than to divorce.  A hurdle I am faced with right now is that to the outside, my uPBDw looks like the perfect mom.  She's a stay at home mom, though all the kids are in school.  She can put on an act like nobody else when it comes to being a martyr, too. I get compliments at church on how great she is, and how good our family is.  I recoil in disgust inside when I hear this, but, I keep up the act for now. I realize that all it takes for abuse to perpetuate is the victims stay silent.  I can't go on like this for much longer.

I am afraid of the legal system too.  As a working dad, it would be all too easy for a family court to side with a sympathetic looking mom and give primary custody of the kids to her, along with most of my income.  I would feel as though I left them in a burning building - which is only slightly an exaggeration.  How do I do this?

How to do I get my kids to freedom from a mom that only is seen by us?

[OnceConfused]

First of all, you have to face the facts that the divorce with your wife will be expensive to you. You will have to pay alimony to her, depending your state laws. You will have child support issues, unless they are closer to age 18 and you can get shared custody , 50/50.

So now you need to have an exit strategy. calculate how many more years before the youngest reaches 18. How to Divide the assets . Essentially, the financial issues.

In the mean time, you might want to focus on yourself for a life after your marriage (if you feel strongly that this marriage's demise is inevitable). Find hobby, new social skill sets .

Learn how to cope. Stand up for yourself. Try to find:

You can dance while in the rain, and not just wait for the rain to stop.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you for the motivational thought of singing in the rain, rather than just waiting.  I can use that.

I feel that there is only one way to go for my marriage, ands that's a termination.  I'll fight for 50/50 custody and let the rest of the chips fall where they may.  I may not get any support or understanding from anyone not well acquainted with BPD.  That lack of understanding will hurt too.

[ForeverDad]

I quote this in many threads here:  Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Nearly 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment - your home, wherever that is - away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

As they say, if the eggs are cracked, make an omelet.  While you and others can trigger the dysfunction, you didn't cause it.  But you can find practical ways to deal with it all - from a safe (or a less unsafe) distance with a solid court order under your belt.

Do you have documentation of the dysfunction?  As you've experienced, the Mask of Seeming Normalcy is maintained in public but crumbles/transforms in private or family scenarios.  Ponder how you can document it so that court doesn't hear only "he-said, she-said" and ignore it as bickering to be discounted or ignored as hearsay.  In my case, I started (quietly) recording some of the worst behaviors such as rant, rages and how my children were impacted.  Court and other agencies won't be too concerned about her rants and rages directed at you, though documenting it may help you demonstrate your statements can be substantiated.  Court and other agencies will be more concerned about how the children are impacted.  So adult behaviors won't get the attention as parenting behaviorswill.  I must admit court heard only a few of my multitude of recordings.  But they were my 'insurance' against all the 'unsubstantiated' allegations and helped me to sleep a little less terrified at night.

Sadly, as deeply impacted you were and are, don't be surprised if court and other agencies respond, in effect, "So?"  For you it's your life and your children's lives, for them it's their job and at the end of the day they leave work and go home.

Do try to get the best order possible from the very start.  Court is used to defaulting to "Mother gets the kids and Father gets alternate weekends and the bills."  You challenge is to show your case merits better handling right from the start.  In my case, I got alternate weekends and paid child support.  My lawyer turned to me and said, "Shh. Don't speak, whatever you get, we'll fix it later."  Well, later took nearly two years.  The court's own social worker recommended I get 50% time.  No change, we just went to the next step.  The we got a Custody Evaluator and he summarized, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can... .Mother should immediately lose her temporary custody... ."  No change, we just went to the next step.  It was only in the final decree (yes, a settlement minutes before trial was to begin) that I moved up to 50% parenting.

Have a Strategy, actually several of them for all the various scenarios you can imagine.  Many won't be needed or work out but you need to be prepared and proactive.

Two reasons to ask for more than you hope to get:  First, it lets the judge know you want to be an involved father.  Too many fathers accept being sidelined into stereotypes and, when facing an obstructive spouse such as in our types of cases, obscurity.  Let the judge know you do want to be a really involved father and not just doing token visits.  Second, that way if you don't get it all, you can still be satisfied with a reasonable outcome but ex will feel she 'won' by stopping you from getting all you sought.  Judges like to rule for (1) the current status and (2) the middle ground, with the goal that neither parent feels like a winner or loser.  So ask for extra and if/when you get less it may still be reasonable.

For example, be consistent, from the start you can position yourself as an involved father:  "Your Honor, I feel it would be best for the children to be parented primarily by me.  I would like to present my reasons and documentation.  However, if that is not the court's wish at this time, I can still work with equal time.  Our children need me regularly involved in their lives for stability and support."

If the children don't already have counselors, that may be a helpful resource for you.  Even school counselors can help.  In most cases the disordered parent doesn't want counselors since they're trying to hid e the problems and behaviors.  But understand that courts do like counseling, for all and especially the kids.  It may take time but courts will almost surely back you up on this request.  Just make sure your spouse doesn't get to choose a gullible, easily conned or enabler professional.

Though this is likely to be an uphill struggle - so much depends on how entitled and obstructive your spouse will be - you can accomplish so much more than you fear... .with support from trusted family, trusted friends, experienced counselors and therapists, experienced and proactive attorney and of course the peer support here.

My question now is, since you mentioned Avoidant PD... .How obstructive, vindictive, entitled, or retaliatory is your spouse likely to be?  Will she be willing to work out a less unreasonable settlement if you agree to not highlight her poor (primarily parenting) behaviors?

[Moselle]

Samwise Gamgee,

I can empathise with your agonising situation. Mine was very similar. I made my decision to leave two years ago. And i'd like to stress four things from experience

Make your decision and stick to it. Remember therapists who are treating borderlines are often in therapy themselves because of the difficulty of managing this disorder. The reason I say this is because of the FOG.  I recycled for three months of those two years and it made it worse. I spent 18 months on the staying board, when in hind sight, I should have been spending those 18 months preparing my life for divorce  and post divorce. I'm paying he price for staying now in High Court,  family court, maintenance court. If you are prepared  you can avoid all the courts and settle outside of court- by far the best option

2. Plan your exit very carefully.  Have EVERYTHING ready. Divorce papers, settlement agreement, parenting plan, and finances. I don't care what anyone says divorce mostly comes down to money.

3. Prepare to create a happy home for the children post divorce.  :)ream it, create.it.

4. When your ready, act fast. Push the divorce through  as fast as possIble.  Always  one step ahead

Good Luck  

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you to all!  Both of your responses are very perceptive.  Both deserve more thought anda longer response,but, I'm handling a lot at the moment, so I'll respond in detail later.

I need pointers on how to prepare for a good as possible divorce. I agree that I could try to stay and hold on, but I will always loop back to the decision that divorce is the only way to survive. So, I'll have to really get this done, and right.

Briefly, as to what my wife will do, I suspect she would spend a day or two in utter darkness and loathing, then rise like the Phoenix in holy indignation. 

She's well on the way to alienating the kids whenever she can.  Subtly of course.  There's a chance she just shuts down.  Maybe I can get something signed in that period.  Then, there's the mathematical possibility she takes her own life.

[Moselle]

Samwise, you sound switched on and you're already ahead of the curve by being so aware.

I didn't come on the divorcing boards much, until it happened. I know it's quite depressing to think of these things

All of those are possible.

There's a book called "Splitting" protecting yourself in a divorce a person with BPD and NPD.

Study it completely before you do anything. Before you give any leaving signals.

The book categorises pwBPD. I don't know what yours is capable of, but the way you describe her sounds like a carbon copy of mine. She sounds highly functioning and clever. If they can mask it and act perfect they're very capable of anything.

I found out mine is in the "dangerous" category. So once this thing broke, Vesuvius erupted.

If you're prepared with all the docs, you can stay calm and lead the way through it. Hang in there man

[livednlearned]

Hi Samwise,

Splitting is an excellent place to start. Bill Eddy is a former counselor turned family law attorney, and he recognized that the 20 percent of all divorces that end up in court tend to have at least one parent with a PD. If you do choose divorce, read his book, then read it again, then read it again. His website www.highconflictinstitute.com also has a lot of good information.

Probably the most important point to take into consideration is whether your wife is a high-conflict personality (HCP). Not all people with BPD are high conflict, although all HCPs have a PD -- they also tend to create a target of blame (you), recruit negative advocates, and are persuasive blamers. It's also a good thing to keep in mind when you're sifting through advice here. My ex is a high-conflict personality and I had to adjust my tactics accordingly.

Eddy also talks about how there are three types of people with PDs:

generally cooperative, not dangerous

not cooperative, not dangerous

not cooperative, dangerous.

This is good information to know about your wife because there are some important communication techniques that work with the first (generally cooperative, not dangerous) that might not work with the other two. And by work, I mean avoid traumatizing the kids, and avoid driving up costs.

Like others have mentioned, plan your exit very carefully. Your wife, if she has BPD, or even if she's sub-clinical, probably lacks the skills to behave in ways that are best for the kids, and for herself -- you'll have to be twice the grown-up, even more than you've been, because the legal system can be very stressful.

I recommend consulting with two or three lawyers -- ask them the same questions, and write down what they say. Go in with a friend if you're comfortable because it's easy to forget when you're flooded with emotion, which tends to happen in these meetings. Figure out which one seems to understand what you're up against, and make sure you understand how things work where you live. If you live in a state like Washington, it's 50/50 by default.

You may develop some new negotiation skills. People with BPD have a hard time "losing," or dealing with negative emotions -- this is true for many of us, in pwBPD, it can become extreme. You have to manage your own feelings of stress at the same time keeping tabs on your lawyer, and at the same time learning new skills to communicate with your kids. Chances are high that your wife will use some if not all alienation techniques.

If you can wait a while before divorcing, start reading everything you can about alienation. You'll be up against two battles, one is for custody, and the other is for the hearts and minds of your kids. If you understand alienation and know how to work the antidotes, you can minimize the trauma. Read everything you can that Dr. Craig Childress has written -- he's the best. Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison is also good, although prepare to be a little freaked out if you read it. Most importantly, read Power of Validation, which is written especially for parents. I also learned a lot from Bill Eddy's other book, Don't Alienate the Kids.

Reading may seem passive in a situation like this, but you need the information. It will make a world of difference. That, and a lawyer who respects your goals and has a good strategy. Plus us   this place is invaluable. Friends here changed my life and helped me through the darkest days I've ever been through.

We're here for you. It will be just you walking this path, but you won't be alone.

Oh, and here's a thread from a while back written by members asking the same question you asked, about what's best for the kids: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61666.0

My two cents is that kids with a BPD parents have a higher risk of developing BPD traits, especially if they have a "sensitive genotype" like the BPD parent. The goal is to raise emotionally resilient kids, and you have to decide for yourself if the kids need a break from the disordered parent in order to develop that resilience.

Whatever you decide, whether you just want to explore what divorce might be like, or how to approach it, we're here for you.

LnL

[Moselle]

My two cents is that kids with a BPD parents have a higher risk of developing BPD traits, especially if they have a "sensitive genotype" like the BPD parent. The goal is to raise emotionally resilient kids, and you have to decide for yourself if the kids need a break from the disordered parent in order to develop that resilience.

L&L. I had never thought if this. How do I convince the court of this?

My situation is somewhat different in that I live 500 km away, but could arrange to visit them.every weekend, if they could stay with another family. Is this possible? Desirable?

If I propose it to court is there a risk that they put them in foster care?

My thoughts are to approach 2 or 3 families I trust, and ask if it is a possibility for them to care for them on weekdays while i come on wekends. Might that be been more traumatic for them?

[ForeverDad]

In my experience, it is extremely unlikely that court would choose the foster care option, for multiple reasons.  First, they're currently with their mother and unless she is determined by children's services or social services to be substantively abusing, neglecting or endangering then they'd never step in.  And things would really have to be bad to hit their high bar to be 'actionable'.  Second, if that happened then they'd look to you to step in as primary parent, unless you too would be viewed that poorly.  If you were to become the primary parent then the children would shift into your care where you are and you wouldn't have to worry about remote visits, etc.

Odds are, the court would not remove the children from mother's care to live with other families (unless substantively abusing, neglecting or endangering) so you would do better to give more attention to other options and strategies.

She currently has majority parenting time.  Court will not change that for minor issues, generally they prefer not to make major changes to parenting without reasons to do so.  If you want to be an involved father then you'll need to prepare well.  Be sure to have Strategies to counter the expected and unexpected obstructions and allegations.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you all.  I started my path of learning about BPD by reading Splitting. That was in the beginning of the year.  I have spent many months working on myself and reading all I can fit in.  I think I can predict my uBPDw in low stress situations.  I'm not too sure about what the end of the world (divorce) would trigger.  I'm sleeping in a separate room, and she hasn't gotten violent.  I think I do see her as a very dangerous counterpart though because she can appear so functional and yet hide an abyss of dark emotions.  I'm slowly working on small steps towards divorce.  I can't see any other option sadly

[Moselle]

Well done Samwise,

It puts you ironically in the best position possible to save the marriage if it is salvageable.

Once you are fully prepared. There's nothing wrong with giving her a choice. I remember putting in my boundaries to stop the abuse and try to work on the marriage.

She chose to continue the abuse and not work on the marriage. Best I knew that now, not in 20 years time. I aslo realised that I did not want to grow old with an abusive spouse.

Good luck with the preparation