"Mediation", sort of

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Quick background: our C met with uBPDm & her husband. We met with C the next week, and he let us know that it's clear Mom really does not trust him. Mom on the surface still seemed willing to have him mediate, which was a   for C. So he decided not to be our mediator any longer, as he suspected Mom would just use her mistrust of him to prolong & undermine the process. Plus, in our state, we'd all have to do county mediation anyway, so we're trying to get that going.

Anyone who will be at the county mediation needs to take the local parenting class. Mom emailed DH to ask if I'd be there. (It's been a HUGE deal that Stepdad CANNOT feel left out of all this   ). So, sure, I'll be there, it's fine. Not sure why Mom is testing the waters there -- maybe she wants to spin it as "Well, DH said kells76 would be there, so it's only fair that Stepdad goes too", ignoring that she was the one who had to have Stepdad at the originally planned session. Whatever.

The weird part is that she just emailed DH to say that she & Stepdad can't afford the class fee for them because of paying for SD9's sport fees, so they were planning to ask the county for low income assistance. Again, whatever, if Mom thinks they're poor because of how they spend their $, fine, but I'm wondering if it's a delay tactic.

So what DH is doing meanwhile is contacting the county to see how long it takes for a waiver to be approved. Timeline could be helpful. But here's a question for the group -- could it be beneficial for DH to email mom and say "No problem, I'll cover your fee and mine, so we can work together"? Or do you guys see potential for that backfiring? I could see Mom complaining subtlely that DH has $ for mediation but hasn't offered to help with sd9's sports fees (which are huge for this sport). But that wouldn't look good for mom in a way... .I mean, DH already overpays on CS.

So... .Thoughts on what Mom is up to with this tactic, and thoughts on DH offering to help vs waiting & then filing if she drags it out?

[kells76]

Quick background: our C met with uBPDm & her husband. We met with C the next week, and he let us know that it's clear Mom really does not trust him. Mom on the surface still seemed willing to have him mediate, which was a   for C. So he decided not to be our mediator any longer, as he suspected Mom would just use her mistrust of him to prolong & undermine the process. Plus, in our state, we'd all have to do county mediation anyway, so we're trying to get that going.

Anyone who will be at the county mediation needs to take the local parenting class. Mom emailed DH to ask if I'd be there. (It's been a HUGE deal that Stepdad CANNOT feel left out of all this   ). So, sure, I'll be there, it's fine. Not sure why Mom is testing the waters there -- maybe she wants to spin it as "Well, DH said kells76 would be there, so it's only fair that Stepdad goes too", ignoring that she was the one who had to have Stepdad at the originally planned session. Whatever.

The weird part is that she just emailed DH to say that she & Stepdad can't afford the class fee for them because of paying for SD9's sport fees, so they were planning to ask the county for low income assistance. Again, whatever, if Mom thinks they're poor because of how they spend their $, fine, but I'm wondering if it's a delay tactic.

So what DH is doing meanwhile is contacting the county to see how long it takes for a waiver to be approved. Timeline could be helpful. But here's a question for the group -- could it be beneficial for DH to email mom and say "No problem, I'll cover your fee and mine, so we can work together"? Or do you guys see potential for that backfiring? I could see Mom complaining subtlely that DH has $ for mediation but hasn't offered to help with sd9's sports fees (which are huge for this sport). But that wouldn't look good for mom in a way... .I mean, DH already overpays on CS.

So... .Thoughts on what Mom is up to with this tactic, and thoughts on DH offering to help vs waiting & then filing if she drags it out?

[Panda39]

Hi Kells,

Looking for financial assistance could be a way to delay or it could be a way to get your DH to pay for them or it could be they really don't have the money. 

The ex and her husband are going to do what they are going to do regardless of the reason.

You can only control what you do.  So what are you going to do? I know you would like to move everything along but I think if you pay for the ex you are opening a door that goes down a slippery slope.  She could keep finding ways, reasons, needs to keep coming back to the well (the "well" being your DH). IMO there needs to be a financial boundary if it gets blurry it could get really messy.

Your husband and his ex are adults and should be responsible for their own finances.

That's one Panda's opinion    (disclaimer... .many of my SO's uBPDxw's issues surround money so I do have pretty hard boundaries around money and might not be as flexible as other members)  I'll be interested to hear other feedback.

[kells76]

Panda, good point that it might be blurring boundaries. Seems to be a theme 

So far she has not pushed the money issue, just the time with the kids, but she could change, it's true. And it's also true that she's an adult and should manage her own finances. Hmmm... .Makes me wonder now why she even mentioned the $ issue to DH.

[ForeverDad]

The ex and her husband are going to do what they are going to do regardless of the reason.

You can only control what you do.  So what are you going to do? I know you would like to move everything along but I think if you pay for the ex you are opening a door that goes down a slippery slope.  She could keep finding ways, reasons, needs to keep coming back to the well (the "well" being your DH). IMO there needs to be a financial boundary, if it gets blurry it could get really messy.

Your husband and his ex are adults and should be responsible for their own finances.

I totally agree.  He isn't married to her, someone else is, whatever relationship they had is long over, bridges burned, no obligations except regarding parenting issues.  A hard lesson to learn - and keep learning - is that we too often sabotage ourselves by following our natural inclinations to be too fair, too nice, too whatever.  (Often it's what kept us in the relationship too long.)  Our good nature is unlikely to be reciprocated.  Used and abused is more likely.

[kells76]

It's sounding like even if the motive is to speed up the path to mediation (not to "rescue" Mom), the fact that boundaries would get blurred is a very good reason NOT to offer to pay.

Seems like DH's next step may have to be... .setting a deadline? Something like "If we both haven't taken the class by Date, then _____"? Hard to know what the "then _____" might be. Also not sure if it's the right move based on Mom saying she can't afford the class. Seems like a double bind -- if DH offers to pay, a boundary gets busted, but if he doesn't offer to pay, Mom drags her feet.

Help me see another way of looking at this? It can't just be an either/or, right?

[ForeverDad]

In many cases you can prevent delays.  However you should be alert not to contribute to them.  For example, lawyers often ask for continuances due to schedule conflicts, illness and a number of other reasons.  Judges allow it at first.  But eventually a good judge gets peeved that the case isn't proceeding toward resolution.  Also, part of this rests on your lawyer's shoulders.  Many lawyers routinely grant the opposing lawyer continuances as professional accommodation but don't let it be abused.  Your lawyer needs to bring repeated delays to the attention of the court.  "Your honor, this is the third request for continuance.  The first time was that the other side wasn't ready, the next for two inches of snow, now it's that the spouse has a chiropractor appointment.  There is no indication this is an emergency, after all, it is scheduled, my client and I are concerned about the repeated delays and ask that the motion for continuance be denied."

Keep the case on track.  Some will say, "we're working up an offer, let's take the hearing off the court calendar while we see what we come up with."  Don't let the case languish off the calendar, often it takes a couple months to schedule a hearing.  Better to respond, "We would be happy to hear your offer but the case continues."

Delays happen.  You need to be proactive to keep them to a minimum.  My lawyer's estimate: a divorce with children should be 7-9 months.  My reality: 23.5 months!

[Panda39]

Are you all required to attend this class together?  If not, just go with your husband.  I hear a little competitiveness around the ex... .you guys vs them kind of thing.  You and your husband going might motivate her... .it might not.

I think the important thing is that you and your husband go do what you need to do and then deal with the ex.  I agree with ForeverDad that there will be delays and things will take longer than you hope for when there is conflict.  I found the slowness of the court surprising and still am.  My SO's uBPDxw has been up on felony fraud charges since December of last year... .still no resolution almost a year later    Not to freak you out but my SO's high conflict divorce/custody battle also took 2 years to be final... .at least you have already completed the divorce that's half the battle 

How much is this class per couple anyway?  If I remember mine when I got divorced it wasn't too terribly expensive, but I guess that isn't really the point is it when dealing with someone with BPD   

At this point I would focus on what you need to do and see how things play out with the "financial assistance" for the ex then if need be discuss with your attorney how to "motivate" her and her husband to get moving.  You might even need to wait longer if the court gives them time to save up.  If they don't qualify for "financial assistance" though that will also tell the court something.

Panda39

[david]

You and DH going sounds like a good idea. Let mom figure her stuff out on her own.

[livednlearned]

What about an email to biomom from H:

kells76 and I will be at the class and are looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll see you there.

Or, if he is paying above state-mandated guidelines for CS, what if he said, "I can pay less for CS over the next six months, and use the balance to cover the class fees."

It's a bit   to do it that way. It also makes it clear, if anyone is using emails to keep score for documentation, that he is willing to work with her, and that means both sides have to give and take.

[david]

If you and DH can go without her than I would not contact her about it anymore. She told you what she was doing and let her do what she said she is going to do.

Legally, I don't think you should use CS as any kind of bargaining tool. If you have a court order for CS and he is paying above the guidelines then that should be adjusted by the state anyway. If he is paying without a court order then I would check with your atty. I suspect you could withhold that amount but I would be cautious about that and get an atty's advice. I would also get the amount reduced anyway. You can take that money and put it in some kind of account for the kids.

[ForeverDad]

When I first separated, I had mutual protection orders against each other.  Those were just ending when I filed for divorce.  Her response to my filing was to counter-file also seeking custody and also filing in another court for harassment/stalking protection at the same time.  So we couldn't go to our required parenting classes together.  (Well, in her mind.  I believe we could have, it all depended whether any court officers or police were present.  No one wanted to force her to come while I was there.)

Are DH and his Ex required to attend together?  If not, then it's okay if she wants to go on separate days, just don't let it be an excuse for her to cause delays.

[david]

Also, if you are not required to go together then all ex can do is drag things out. The court system allows that but eventually, in my situation, it realizes who is the one causing the problem. By then I had everything I was asking for and overwhelming evidence to back it up. Ex's atty basically had ex agree to what I was seeking instead of going in front of a judge.

Ex says she is poor and can't afford it. DH is paying more then state required in CS. Maybe, ex needs to work more hours. If so the kids can stay with you guys more while ex is working. Maybe ex needs to go back to school. Again, the kids can stay with you more to help ex do her studies uninterrupted. I think a good atty can present that much better and the judge would like those ideas.

My ex filed three protection orders against me over a course of several years. I was having issues with her not letting me see the kids school bags and school work. I was picking the kids up at her place during my custodial time. During the second protection order I had my atty point out that if I picked the boys up at school I would not be near ex. Since she claimed she was frightened of me the judge thought that was a good idea. I made sure ex, the judge, and I all signed the agreement that day in court so ex couldn't change her mind. She did complain about it months later.

[kells76]

It doesn't sound like there's a requirement for when DH & uBPDm attend class, either together or apart, so that's not an issue. This is all going on pre-filing, which is a question -- will there be any record of Mom's delays if nothing has been filed yet? I.e. she's not delaying an actual case/modification at this point, and she also doesn't have a L as far as we know.

The idea of using $ as leverage has its temptations   but it seems like a really low move at this point   LnL's idea of emailing Mom suggesting DH divert $X for the class is pretty logical, but is also a can of worms that might not be worth it to open. Probably a good question for the L. I mean, if DH sent that email, Mom could certainly get mad, but what could she say? No, keep overpaying me, and don't divert any to mediation? Actually, she'd probably just turn the screws on the kids, to get at DH. Yeah, maybe not a good path right now.

FD, uBPDm doesn't work, and hasn't for quite a while. Will be interesting to see what a judge says.

[david]

If the overpaying is not a court order I would talk to an atty about reducing it to the standard. The longer you permit it the harder it will be to adjust.

If it is voluntary then I would see if you can just reduce it without complications. I am only talking about the legal aspects. What ex does is on her. You can even take that money and put it in a college fund or something else for the kids. If ex takes you to court you can show what you are doing with the "extra" money. I don't see how a judge would force you to give it to ex since you are doing something in the children's best interest. You just need a paper trail.