A BPD win in court...sort of

[sanemom]

The judge listened to CPS first.  They are dismissing the charges, said that the alcohol abuse was the result of zoloft, and... .this is the best part... .when BM's attorney asked why DH was on zoloft, the CPS worker said "it's an antidepressant."  Then BPD mom's attorney asked, "Why is he depressed?" and the CPS worker said, "Because he lost his daughter."  I don't think he wanted to know that... ..

Then BPD mom took the stand.  She admitted that she has told the kids that she was moving far away in June of this year... .because her mom is supposedly dying of stomach cancer, but DH's incident made her change her mind.  I am sorry--but now more makes sense.  Their mom has moved away from them 3 other times in life, and I am sure they were not happy about that--here is how they could force her to stay.  Then she found an apartment quick bc of DH.

Then break and we came back to put the boys' counselor on the stand.  FIrst, BPD mom's attorney was trying to accuse the counselor of talking about the case after the rule was invoked... .she wasn't here for that so no, she didn't.  That didn't go well with the judge.  When she started testifying to how BPD mom was completely alienating the session, that really didn't go over well.  Then BPD mom's attorney was claiming that they boys didn't want to see her anymore.  Well, the judge was enraged because HE is the one who appointed her.  We stopped asking her more questions because our attorney could tell that the judge was getting pissed off at BPD mom's side, and he wanted it to end with that.

Then the judge took a recess and came back to say that we could put more witnesses on but there was no point.  He knows my DH is not dangerous.  He knows that the boys want to live with BPD mom, and he doesn't want the boys at our house "burning the house down" because they are mad they are there (I am pretty sure they would be fine... .they just have to say what BPD mom says).  BUT he also said that he is very well aware that BPD mom is an alienator and will put that all over the court paperwork.  I think he said something like he is "tattooing her" as an alienator.  

He said he will send the boys to her because that is what they want BUT if BPD mom does not bring the boys to therapy and the boys do not have a good relationship with their dad, SHE will be held responsible, and he wants us to bring her to court, and she will lose them... .he said he will count it as a substantial change in circumstances even if it hasn't been a year.  He also promised that the parental alienation would be all over the order so that any judge who may get this case later will know.

And he appointed a parent facilitator to help DH and BPD mom... .we asked for one in the last case, and she refused to agree... .now the judge is forcing it.

The counselor told the judge that he needed to be the one to give the boys the information or they would not get correct information (BPD mom would lie to them).  When the boys came in, he told them that they needed to go to therapy, and the boys then said that they like going to therapy to the judge... ..  (judge chewed out BPD mom's attorney about that later)

He also told the boys that they needed to work on their relationship with their dad, and their mom wants them to.  

The boys then came out all happy and talked with their dad for the first time in a month.  :)SS15 told DH that he didn't want to be like DSD and wants to have a relationship with him.

I think that the boys are going to find out some things the hard way.  BPD mom is unemployed, and I guess she is counting on our child support (they will reduce it bc she is so behind).

The killer is that this was just supposed to be a TRO hearing--there was no motion to modify that had been served.  BUT this judge just wants to do what the kids want... .

So yes, she got the boys, but she also now has a lot of eyes on her.  And I am quite sure she has no idea what she is doing that is alienating... .no awareness of it whatsoever.

[Panda39]

Hi Sanemom,

Had you on my mind all day.   

It certainly sounds like the judge got it! BM was seen for what she is.   

It sounds like the judge also took a lot of pressure off the boys, they sounded relieved (which is a good thing!).  Now they have what the judge said as ammunition.  The judge can be the bad guy and it takes the boys out of the middle.  They don't have to choose either one parent or the other.  Per the "Judge" they have to see their dad and I suspect based on their reaction at court that is what they would like too. Even thought you didn't get custody it sounds like he did what was best for the boys (for now).  It sounds like they were under alot of pressure. I think you're right it sounds like the boys were worried about mom moving away again.

Now all the pressure and eyes will be on mom.  It remains to be seen if she can hold it together while under the scrutiny.

They still have therapy with a good therapist that gets its.  Also a good thing. 

Good luck to the parenting facilitator dealing with mom   but the facilitator couldn't hurt and might help who knows?   

I know you and DH are probably disappointed about the custody but things are fluid and will change.  I sure the heck have seen that with my SO's daughters in the last 5 years.  Your boys are older and will soon be making their own decisions too.

Did you get some kind of visitation schedule?

How do you and DH feel about things?  I bet relieved    Now you can relax in your own home and work on re-building trust in the boys.  Always with an eye on their mother. 

Panda39

[sanemom]

I think DH is really upset... .he is very attached to his boys and has been their primary for 14 years.  He is trying to look at the big picture, though.

When this first started, we tried the "say nothing" approach, and it burned us.  BPD mom warped the kids' minds completely, and they believed everything she said 100%.

More recently we tried the Warshak "explain with neutral tone" approach, but the boys see that as us being against BPD mom, and they turn it against us... .even when we aren't talking about BPD mom and focusing on our behavior.  The counselor told us when we were merely explaining our perspective about a miscommunication, it turned into "They're talking bad about my mom."  Also, the counselor gave us several instances where we said something positive or neutral about mom, and the boys thought we were picking on her.  She said that she thinks with most kids what we were doing would work; with these kids, they are so on the defensive, it doesn't take much.

I feel like we can't win.

The counselor advised that we go back to the "say nothing" approach and through the parent facilitator.  I hope that works.

In the meantime, I know we could appeal this just because a motion to modify wasn't on the table in the first place.  BUT I am thinking that the quicker we (DH and I) get quiet and de-escalate on our end, the more apparent BPD mom's behavior will be to the boys.  :)oes that make sense?

The judge thinks this has a 70% chance of working, saying everyone has a chance of redemption (he was saying that and glaring at BPD mom because one of the many things she had said in the counseling session in front of the boys was that the counselor needed to be focused on getting the boys to accept that their dad will never change).  I am not sure I would give it 70% chance--she has been ordered to do many things over the years and hasn't done them.  Only time will tell, but I have a feeling she is totally not ready to raise two teen boys and take the financial responsibility, even with our support.

I am just worried how we pragmatically deal with the support issue.  Small example--we now pay for DSS' car insurance.  Now that we pay support, do we stop paying for the insurance?  And if so, how do we tell him?  I mean, how do you say it without it being an alienating, "We pay your mom so she is responsible now" kind of statement?  

I feel like since the judge told the lawyers to figure out the support mess (her not paying for years so how do we pay her), we may end up back in court, and I just want this to end.

[Panda39]

I think DH is really upset... .he is very attached to his boys and has been their primary for 14 years.  He is trying to look at the big picture, though.

I'm sorry he's upset I know I would be too this feels like a defeat to him, the boys will be living with mom.  But I think there was quite a bit of victory in the day too and the biggest to me was that the judge addressed the problem at the bottom of it all and that is the Parental Alienation.  He sees it and sounds like he isn't messing around with mom on that topic.

In the meantime, I know we could appeal this just because a motion to modify wasn't on the table in the first place.  BUT I am thinking that the quicker we (DH and I) get quiet and de-escalate on our end, the more apparent BPD mom's behavior will be to the boys.  :)oes that make sense?

This absolutely makes sense and I think is a good idea.  Be the alternate universe... .the normal, stable universe. Also, take some time to recuperate from this round of conflict and court.     

Only time will tell, but I have a feeling she is totally not ready to raise two teen boys and take the financial responsibility, even with our support.

I'm betting you are right.  My SO's uBPDxw did much better as the weekend ":)isneyland Mom" with no real responsibilities than she ever did as a real mom.

I am just worried how we pragmatically deal with the support issue.  Small example--we now pay for DSS' car insurance.  Now that we pay support, do we stop paying for the insurance?  And if so, how do we tell him?  I mean, how do you say it without it being an alienating, "We pay your mom so she is responsible now" kind of statement?

Are you able to continue paying for the car insurance?  If you left it up to mom would it get paid?  I think this is really about your DSS's safety.  What happens if he is in an accident and has no insurance?  Think about what is best for him.

 

I feel like since the judge told the lawyers to figure out the support mess (her not paying for years so how do we pay her), we may end up back in court, and I just want this to end.

I know it's exhausting, the anger, the stress, the betrayal of the boys, having not felt comfortable in your own home because of the spying and all of the unknowns.

I think what you and DH should do now is try to decompress, try to adjust to the new situation and then maybe spend some time together reconnecting, maybe do something special just the 2 of you   "NO BPDX TALK ALLOWED!" 

Take Care,

Panda39

[sanemom]

I am just worried how we pragmatically deal with the support issue.  Small example--we now pay for DSS' car insurance.  Now that we pay support, do we stop paying for the insurance?  And if so, how do we tell him?  I mean, how do you say it without it being an alienating, "We pay your mom so she is responsible now" kind of statement?

Are you able to continue paying for the car insurance?  If you left it up to mom would it get paid?  I think this is really about your DSS's safety.  What happens if he is in an accident and has no insurance?  Think about what is best for him.

 

We are going to be having to cut everything we can in our expenses to pay this child support--she was only ordered to pay $250 a month, and we are going to have to pay close to $2000 a month... .so even with her years being behind, it won't take us long to catch up, and the judge was recommending we send a check to the state office and she sends one (which she will NEVER do)... .I have no idea how this is going to work out, but we are BROKE and very much in the hole.

In our state, without car insurance, he is not legally allowed to drive.  And I doubt she will get it for him.

[Panda39]

I am just worried how we pragmatically deal with the support issue.  Small example--we now pay for DSS' car insurance.  Now that we pay support, do we stop paying for the insurance?  And if so, how do we tell him?  I mean, how do you say it without it being an alienating, "We pay your mom so she is responsible now" kind of statement?

Are you able to continue paying for the car insurance?  If you left it up to mom would it get paid?  I think this is really about your DSS's safety.  What happens if he is in an accident and has no insurance?  Think about what is best for him.

We are going to be having to cut everything we can in our expenses to pay this child support--she was only ordered to pay $250 a month, and we are going to have to pay close to $2000 a month... .so even with her years being behind, it won't take us long to catch up, and the judge was recommending we send a check to the state office and she sends one (which she will NEVER do)... .I have no idea how this is going to work out, but we are BROKE and very much in the hole.

In our state, without car insurance, he is not legally allowed to drive.  And I doubt she will get it for him.

I've thought more about this one and maybe this is just a natural consequence of his actions/choice.  Maybe you let the insurance lapse.  I would just tell him that with all the changes since your visit to court that this is an expense you can no longer afford. He'll either need to get a job to pay for it or ask his mom.

You might want to do this with the trips you mentioned in your other post.  This isn't a punishment this is a consequence of no longer having the budget.  The boundary is your budget.  If you can do trips on a smaller scale maybe do that.  

Your boys (as hard as it is to watch and it is painful  :'() are now going to learn what their choice is really going to mean and I don't mean just in financial terms.  I'm sure there will be the victorious moment for mom "winning" in court but then reality will begin.

It will be great if mom "magically" gets it together and can follow the court order because that would be good for you guys and the boys.  Is it likely? Maybe for awhile, but if she is anything like my SO's ex she won't be able to maintain the "good behavior".  I suspect you and DH will be picking up the pieces in terms of the boys interaction with mom and heading back to court eventually.  (At least based on my experience) You won everything except the boys hearts and minds yesterday, the judge just set the boys up for a reality check about what living with mom is going to really be like and yes gave her one final change to get it together.

I can't predict the future but I believe this is not the end it is just a pause while you watch and wait for the shoe to drop.  

I know this is really hard but let it go.  Watch, wait, document, try to re-connect with the boys, adjust to the financial changes   and move forward with your lives.

Panda39

PS Wanted to tell you what a lovely young lady your daughter is she clearly loves you and her step-dad very much  

[sanemom]

Panda, I am going to read your thread once again when I can get on my laptop to see how long your BPD was able to maintain.

I just realized... .the verbiage the judge used for "tattooing" BPD mom was legal... .he said he doesn't usually have an at fault finding (because our state is a no-fault divorce state), but in this case he will---he will be making her at fault for alienation.

I guess that could protect us in future litigation.

[Panda39]

Panda, I am going to read your thread once again when I can get on my laptop to see how long your BPD was able to maintain.

She was never able to maintain and has only had a down hill slide in the five years I've been with my SO.  To acquaintances that didn't know her well she looked fine for awhile before those relationships ended too.  When they divorced she and my SO both went to what I describe as their baseline.  My SO has bounced back into a normal, happy, healthy life, financially responsible, good dad.  Mom on the other hand is sliding down to her natural consequences... .she has a jury trial for felony fraud next April (almost a year and a half after she was charged  )

That's what I'm trying to say mom will put up a front for awhile but she is she going to change I doubt it. You need to just watch and wait for the cracks in the facade to start to show.

[Boss302]

Panda, I am going to read your thread once again when I can get on my laptop to see how long your BPD was able to maintain.

I can answer that: not long. She failed multiple times to set up and maintain a household. Now she lives in hotels.

[Nope]

I absolutely agree that there are new financial realities because of this decision. Your SS is old enough to have that explained to him. Because they will be living with mom now DH will be giving mom a certain amount of money every month to help her take care of them. This means DH won't have as much money for the things at his house and cannot afford to continue paying the extra car insurance. No blame, just a dose of reality. DH can talk to him about potential solutions such as getting a job or working it out with mom.

Let the nightmare of not getting their needs met begin, if that's what happens. They are old enough to know what's right and they won't starve to death in her care. They'll just be smothered and neglected at the same time. And when mom fails to come through and the kids start refusing to see DH because that's what mom wants then just document repeated offences, go back to court and ask the judge "what now?"

[Boss302]

We are going to be having to cut everything we can in our expenses to pay this child support--she was only ordered to pay $250 a month, and we are going to have to pay close to $2000 a month... .so even with her years being behind, it won't take us long to catch up, and the judge was recommending we send a check to the state office and she sends one (which she will NEVER do)... .I have no idea how this is going to work out, but we are BROKE and very much in the hole.

In our state, without car insurance, he is not legally allowed to drive.  And I doubt she will get it for him.

Couple of suggestions here:

1) When dear old mom welches out on what she's supposed to be paying you - an outcome as predictable as Tuesday following Monday - take her back to court and ask the judge if you can deduct her payment from what you pay her. In my case, the judge ruled that he had no confidence that my ex would pay me, so he allowed me to deduct that from what I pay her in alimony. That could buy you a bit of breathing room. It also gives you a chance to put her in front of the judge again, which you want. Give it a couple of months and see what happens. Also, child support is a formula in most states, and laws allow for this to be revisited when one party or the other has a substantial change in income. If she gets a job, ask your lawyer about getting the support order redone.

2) If those kids were in court for all this, then they know you're now paying mom child support. Let them know you can't pay for their insurance anymore, and if they ask you why, tell them it's because of the court's financial decision (not "because of what we have to pay your mom".

3) Unleash a surveillance program on those two kids more comprehensive than the freakin' NSA. Monitor their grades and attendance at school, and keep records. Compare the records to the ones when you had custody.  Insist on attending conferences and school activities. Keep in touch with their teachers so you can discuss any problems with grades, attendance, etc. Set up a system with their therapist where she emails their attendance or lack thereof at appointments and start a spreadsheet. Monitor your insurance, and document if they're not going to regular doctor or dentist appointments. Creep on their social media and record anything that looks fishy. Document everything.

4) Insist that all communications with mom not of an emergency nature go on email ONLY. Tell her that this is to lessen conflict, but the real reason is that you will have a written record of all communications with her. I can't stress this point enough. If something's happening that isn't to your satisfaction, email her and ask what's going on. Her likely response will be to blame you or someone else, versus take responsibility - this is the BPD Way. Collect a few gems illustrating her lack of responsibility and give them to the judge.

I have no confidence that this woman is up to the task of being a single mother. It's tough enough for someone who isn't disregulated, and just about impossible for a BPD. The court made it her job to lose. I have a feeling that's exactly what will happen, and it's only a matter of time.

And for God's sake, you and your husband love each other through this. Take care of each other and yourselves.

She won the first battle. So did Japan. Ask the folks in Hiroshima what a big victory Pearl Harbor was.

[ForeverDad]

So the judge changed DH's parenting from clear majority to slight minority?  I get the feeling judge is thinking - and left unsaid - that if mother is sure to get Child Support then the conflict will reduce?  My court too was very reluctant to give me majority time, I didn't get it until nearly 3 years after I got custody and even then it was only during the school year, mother got "one more try".  The court was (finally at long last) peeved with ex for "disparaging father in front of the child".  The words disparaging and disparagement were repeated 6 or more time the the decision/order.

As for child support, I figure this is what her recent actions are all about.  Once SD aged out of child support realm last year, mother saw the boys as a way to turn the $$$ spigot on again.  PwBPD may be really messed up but they almost always know what $$$$ mean.

I agree with the others about Dad carefully choosing his words when explaining the financial reality (court's new order) to the boys.  Mother paying their auto insurance from Child Support or them earning their own insurance payments seems reasonable and financially necessary.

I believe one boy ages out of the court system within a year (perhaps extended until high school graduation if still in school then) and that will reduce Child support.  Then the youngest ages out a couple years later.  Finally the money spigot is Over.  Perhaps DH will be guilted into feeling responsible for their college expenses, perhaps he can limit any potential assistance to less expensive institutions.

She can't continue getting child support after they're adults and out of high school, can she?

Both parents have to pay probably because courts hate to have one parent deduct from the other parent's payments, probably too easy to abuse that.  So that means enforcement is the answer.  Is there anything in the order which states her consequences if/when she fails to pay her required amounts.  (Frankly, all she has to do is turn around and send some of it back in the system to DH.

[sanemom]

So the judge changed DH's parenting from clear majority to slight minority?  I get the feeling judge is thinking - and left unsaid - that if mother is sure to get Child Support then the conflict will reduce? 

I think that the reason for his ruling was exactly that--let BPD mom have the illusion that she is getting what she wants (primary custody of the boys and money) and maybe she will stop putting the boys in the middle.  He ordered her to keep the boys in counseling weekly and for DH and her to use a parent facilitator so there is a checks and balances system.

Even though we didn't get to show our video footage of the boys in our bedroom, the judge hearing that the boys were accusing us of taking pain pills and then hearing that we passed a hair follicle test probably was enough for him to know that the boys were feeling so pressured that they helped mom report us to CPS.  I am pretty sure he understood even though it was presented subtly.  And if she is that desperate, the PA must be bad.  Oh yeah, and DSD leaving college to come to testify to "support her brothers" probably didn't make BPD mom look that great either.

So my guess he was thinking that if the PA is that bad, he is either going to have to block the kids' contact with mom OR see if mom will shape up.  He chose the latter in hopes that BPD mom will straighten up, and he put all those checks and balances in place.  And he made it clear to BPD mom that he was going to do something he rarely does--make a fault finding on her for parental alienation--so every judge who ever sees this file will see that and know her game. 

Then he also made it clear to us that if this doesn't work and the boys are still alienated to come back in 6 months (not the typical year waiting period), and he will rule that as being a substantial change in circumstances and change custody (and I am guessing at that point, the BPD mom's access will be very limited).

Even though it feels like a loss, I do think it was a win on many levels.  BPD mom does not like being under scrutiny--even in the one month she was supposed to take the boys to counseling, she balked and stopped taking them.  Now that she knows she could lose the boys if she does that, the stakes are much higher for her.

Judge told the lawyers that this was a case of severe alienation, but he seems to think this has a 70% chance of working.  I am not sure I am that optimistic, but time will tell.

[sanemom]

I wish I could just add to the previous post, but my friends who know what happened in court have noted that they found it strange that BPD mom is not gloating about winning on social media (she blocks us--totally not like her.  It makes me wonder if she is upset about something in the result.  Maybe she is upset about being called an alienator or maybe she doesn't like the idea of having two professionals babysit her... .or maybe her being forced to stay in the area messes up previous plans.  Regardless, I find it interesting.

[Panda39]

It's all just speculation at this point but maybe her Lawyer advised her not to.

[sanemom]

After things settling in, I am remembering one piece of testimony BPD mom gave.  Before all this happened, she said she was planning to move to a city that is about 5 hours away--saying she wanted to move near her dying mom (her mom has been dying of something new for years).  Then she said her plan was to come up here on her weekends and get a hotel room to see the boys so they wouldn't have to travel.  After we found that out, at lunch our attorney said that her plan was clearly to move far away so we wouldn't see the boys.  And I bet she was thinking that DH would just drive up there on the weekends to see his boys and get a hotel room.

Except now she can't--there is a geographic restriction AND if she tries to get it lifted, the paperwork says she is an alienator so it probably won't happen.  She had just moved to a contiguous county right before the hearing (as in days before), and the judge said that his judge friends in the contiguous county will be able to see that she is an alienator all over the paperwork in case she is trying to escape him as judge.  :-)

[ForeverDad]

Hey, if she wants to move 5 hours away, she's an adult, she can do that, I'm fairly sure DH has no problem if she moves away... .just that the minor boys can't move away with her.

And as for moving the case to another county, I believe at least one parent and court would have to agree with that and the court just said that wasn't going to play patty cake with her.  That doesn't mean she can't try to start something over there and try to keep it there.

Let me lighten the mood for a moment... .   This was a few years ago.  I called my county's CPS for some reason, offhand I can't remember which incident this was.  Well, I described the issue and the lady asked, "Ex lives in this county?"  I replied, "No, she lives one county over in HerTown."  "She said, "Well, then you have to call that county's offices."  I asked, "Why?"  She said, "You have to call the office in the residential parent's county."  I stopped her objections when I replied, "But I AM the Residential Parent (and legal guardian since 2011)."  I face that over and over, the presumption that mother is always in charge.   Don't get me started about the child support agency.  When I was legal guardian and paying CS to Ex due to income disparity, the staff insisted the payor is ALWAYS listed as the non-primary parent, a software limitation.

[Boss302]

I wish I could just add to the previous post, but my friends who know what happened in court have noted that they found it strange that BPD mom is not gloating about winning on social media (she blocks us--totally not like her.  It makes me wonder if she is upset about something in the result.  Maybe she is upset about being called an alienator or maybe she doesn't like the idea of having two professionals babysit her... .or maybe her being forced to stay in the area messes up previous plans.  Regardless, I find it interesting.

FYI, you can create a different profile and creep on her page. I find my ex's amusing. She puts pictures of the kids up and then all her zillion friends post responses like "great, those two are too beautiful" and barfy things like that.

But none of her friends ever wonder why the kids don't "like" the posts. Of course, it's because they don't want anything to do with her page. 

She posted one article on "50 things I learned from summer camp." LOL... .how about item one being "pay for it before you send your kid halfway across the country"?

[sanemom]

Quick question--what if she takes off with the boys without the court's permission?  What would we do?

[Panda39]

Hopefully it won't come to that but if it did I would call the police and call your lawyer.

[ForeverDad]

Since they're teens I think any non-compliance wouldn't be seen as urgent as when they were preschoolers.

And I think that the new order sets her up to lose big time if she does anything over the top.  Of course, what we see as substantive probably isn't the same level as what the court sees as substantive or 'actionable'.  Court typically has the patience of Job combined with the reactions of a hibernating bear.  However, one more jab and who knows... .

Has the new order been written up yet?  Oftentimes it's a few days or weeks before the decision is written, timestamped and handed out.