Experiences with a contained ex with BPD?

[ForeverDad]

She is reinterpreting to her favor, to be expected.  Maybe she can't oppose the judge's order or stated instructions but she is claiming she doesn't have to comply until there's an written order.  And of course her lawyer isn't responding to queries.

Court instructions:

• She gets 60% and child support



• Father's time with children begins on the next Thursday



• Father brings children on alternate counselor sessions



• Written order to follow

Mother of course is sabotaging by delaying the judges instructions and claiming children don't return until the new order is written and ordered by court.

Question, who is to write the order?  The judge?  The other lawyer?  DH's lawyer?  Where's the delay?

I asked this before, what order is in effect right now?  The temp ex parte one she filed?  The judge's instructions?  The longstanding order with Father having majority time?

I'm not a lawyer but... .Could DH's lawyer file paperwork that states since Ex isn't complying with the judges instructions (this is where you need to quote judge's instructions from the recordings or transcripts and in contrast list that she blocked two Thursdays already and probably by that time also one of father's sessions with boys and counselor) then ask that meanwhile the court confirm a return to the preexisting/current order where boys lived primarily with father?

This way the judge is officially notified mother has been obstructive to the court's instructions and DH's attorney has a solution.  From what I've read, the 6 month threshold is to determine boys' relationship with father.  This is immediate obstruction of (at least the intent of) the judge's instructions.

Me?  That 70% success balloon has a huge leak.  And it didn't take 6 months either.  Even if the judge is reluctant to stir the pot more at this time, it's more documentation of her obstructing father by continuing to block his parenting time.  (And 15/17 year old boys not willing to vist without mother's unilateral approval.)

<peeved>

I'm of a mind to take oldest son aside, once an adult (months away), and show him the claims, allegations, etc mother has made over the years.  And the outrageous expense of legal costs over the years that could have been better used toward more productive family activities or college planning.  I don't know if that's proper but if he's aged out of supervision by the court it might not have too many repercussions.  Only risk is what court might think if/when younger son hears things thirdhand.

</peeved>

[sanemom]

Her attorney is supposed to be writing the order (she is the movant since she filed the TRO against us "drug abusing" people... .), but I am guessing he is in no hurry to write it up because I suspect he is not getting paid by her.

Our attorney requested a brief hearing for the judge to "grant relief"--whatever that means.  The problem is it won't be until next week (which would be two Thursdays blocked).  Of course, maybe if she hears about the hearing, she will let them come on Thursday.

I am sure the judge will blow a gasket when he hears about this, though.  The therapist can say that the boys were told that they aren't seeing their dad until the order is signed... .after the judge was so emphatic that she give him time with the boys.  Crazy.

[ForeverDad]

Which is why you and DH don't tell the Ex, the boys or even the counselor that you're filing for relief from the court.  Let Ex run rampant.  Let her continue sabotaging herself.  Do no more than ask for the expected visits or time.  Let's hope the lawyer puts some teeth into his request for relief.  Rather than just dad get to see boys, he ought to ask that pre-existing order for dad's majority time be resumed, that the current pending change be 'reconsidered' by the court and perhaps even ask for Decision Making concerning all issues including Parenting arrangements.  (In other words, no more groveling to Ex.)

Why the multiple options sought?  To give the judge lots of options.  I get the feeling that judges won't change (or go beyond) the status quo unless it is requested or sought.  For example, if DH's lawyer only asks for relief to get to see sons, that may be all he gets.  If the motion is forward looking, quotes judge from transcripts that mother is alienating father and also includes additional ways to limit Ex's future misbehaviors, then the judge may decide to use some or all of them.

Yes, I'm a bit strong in my thoughts and words, fingertips on fire, but by now everyone, including myself, should be losing patience with Obstructive Ex.

[sanemom]

Our attorney had to let BPD mom's attorney know that we were filing for a hearing next week (have to show that you tried before you get the hearing time).  BPD mom's attorney is on vacation this week, but he was not answering the court appointed therapist last week about mom's shenanigans.  However, suddenly the attorney's assistant contacted BPD mom and lo and behold, BPD mom is now saying that she did not understand what "expanded standard" meant and is acting like she will cooperate.

I am quite certain without her attorney being told of a hearing, she would have kept going, but she plays the ditz so well.

[sanemom]

Just wanted to update you:

1.  With the threat of court, she reluctantly gave up her weekend before the Thanksgiving break and just wasn't sure how she would make up that time with the boys... .yes, she wrote that.  She was upset that DH didn't take his time the previous week (her attorney later said DH should have picked them up from school if he wanted them; um--my DD drives to school and they typically go home with her).

2.  The boys have now seen their non-drug addicted dad for two weekends.  DSS15 is starting to realize that the "parenting islands" concept will help his lack of trust so he won't be confused by alternate perspectives.  He also seemed to be starting to realize that his mom got him all worked up about his dad's situation without need.

3.  BPD mom already has stopped cooperating with counseling--canceled last appt 10 minutes before and won't sign the counselor's paperwork.  Her lawyer threatened to sue the counselor.

Dss15 was saying it helped him to see his dad to realize he was really ok; counselor pointed out that dad was trying to see them, but they refused contact.

I really want DSS to get to the angry stage of how he was duped... .then I will know he gets it.  I know he will always love his mom, and I m good with that; I just want him to really get how she did this so he can be more aware next time she tries.

[Catsmother]

Well it didn't take very long for the ex to show her true colours, did it, with regard to stopping the visits with the counsellor? As for the lawyer threatening to sue, threats are just an empty parcel of words. Given that attendance at the counsellor is court ordered, this is not helping her situation at all.

I am glad that DSS15 is starting to see a more accurate picture of the situation. Hopefully you can all build on that.

Good luck with everything.

[bravhart1]

All the BPD has to do is threaten suing most therapist and they pucker up like a dried out prune. Our T is reminding us monthly that she's worried about BPDm suing, and has told us horror stories of how BPD's have ruined the careers of many T's she knows. It makes me 

They get so much traction from their threats it's no wonder they continue them, it works! The rest of us are all still stuck trying to use our manners while engaged in a knife fight.

I so wish you could just tell those boys their mom is trying to ruin their relationship with DH and you out of spite because she is so miserable herself. It's funny but I always say " the truth just rings true" there is something in a lie that doesn't go in our ears or mind as easily as the truth. Maybe you could drop that mental tidbit in their ear ( not specifically talking about the mother, just in general life) and see if it doesn't resonate with them over time.

If BPDm isn't taking boys to counseling, then can you call counselor and take them on your time?

[sanemom]

The counselor arranged it so that DH and BPD alternate weeks so DH has taken them twice... .BPD mom has next week so we will see if she does it.  Really, she's only missed once, but we haven't even gotten the order finalized yet.  The counselor is just nervous because BPD mom hasn't signed the forms, and she has asked her to for 2 months.  I guess we will just add that she is required to sign them to the court order draft (our attorney ended up writing it).

I have to say it was VERY validating to read:

Parental Alienation

   THE COURT makes a JUDICIAL FINDING that BPD mom has alienated the children subject of this suit against Sanemom's DH  The following ORDERS are found to be in the best interest of the children.

Parenting Facilitator

IT IS ORDERED that Ms. J is appointed as parenting facilitator.  The Court finds that this case is a high-conflict case. 

[bravhart1]

That is very " validating"! Lol it's nice when the court actually validates us! We spend so much time validating everyone around us, we forget that we need it too.

My fantasy judgement says "until BPDm grows up and starts acting like a  parent instead of a child, including being able and willing to support herself, she needs to move back home with her parents and no tv until her attitude improves" 

[ForeverDad]

the court order draft (our attorney ended up writing it)

It has often been said here that our lawyer have to be the ones to write up the order from note or transcripts.  The other lawyer is almost surely going to water down or even subtly twist what was stated by the judge or agreed to in the court room.  You already found out about another reason, the other lawyer's delays.

[bravhart1]

Plus in my experience, they don't want to pay to have the orders written, even when it's their motion.

Also, they can then say that our attorneys wrote it wrong in our favor and they can't fix it, the poor victims that they are. 

They seem to all have the same play book. Where do we get a copy?

[sanemom]

And she is cancelling the boys' therapy appointment again today... .so she has yet to take them since court and was not taking them when the judge ordered it the first time.

Our attorney sent the drafted order... .I am certain we will need a motion to enter and then we can get the counselor to talk with the judge about her refusal to cooperate already.

I am just wondering if BPD mom is consciously concerned about the boys going to counseling and finding out the truth about what happened?  Is that why she has been blocking counseling (first for DSD and now for the boys) for years?  Or is it something else?

At least we get to take them twice a month, but still... .

[DreamGirl]

I am just wondering if BPD mom is consciously concerned about the boys going to counseling and finding out the truth about what happened?  Is that why she has been blocking counseling (first for DSD and now for the boys) for years?  Or is it something else?

My empathetic view.

Fear.

As a mama, when I've taken my kids to counseling, I'm so worried that I've failed them as a mama. It scares me that I've completely screwed them up. I'm afraid of being told I'm a terrible mom.

I have the skill set to know that them going is more important then having to deal with my fear.

A pwBPD does not have the best skills when it comes to regulation of such a hard emotion. So avoiding the situation is a very easy route to take.

That's my best guess.   

[sanemom]

I am just wondering if BPD mom is consciously concerned about the boys going to counseling and finding out the truth about what happened?  Is that why she has been blocking counseling (first for DSD and now for the boys) for years?  Or is it something else?

My empathetic view.

Fear.

As a mama, when I've taken my kids to counseling, I'm so worried that I've failed them as a mama. It scares me that I've completely screwed them up. I'm afraid of being told I'm a terrible mom.

I have the skill set to know that them going is more important then having to deal with my fear.

A pwBPD does not have the best skills when it comes to regulation of such a hard emotion. So avoiding the situation is a very easy route to take.

That's my best guess.   

That is probably a very good guess, DG.  The judge has already told her as much--it is in the new court paperwork that she is alienating the kids (after she testified for an hour that she has not alienated them at all so clearly she doesn't understand).  What, for most families, would have been a brief stay in the hospital to change meds and to get blood pressure lowered turned into a huge CPS investigation for drugs and a motion to modify due to BPD mom's histrionics and lies and how she is so able to get the kids riled up.  At least one of the kids is starting to see how that was a hoax.

[bravhart1]

Not sure where you are located, but here in ca, if the order is broken, like not attending court ordered therapy. You must file some "incident report" which can be done on the phone with the police so that it gets turned to the court. If you don't document it that way, then it may get swept under the rug. ( BPDm gets away with so much, she's prob counting on it)

I would at the very least, send group email to attorneys, therapist, BPDm, and state:

" I have been made aware that BPDm has now failed to bring boys to two court ordered therapy sessions in two weeks. I would like some reasonable explanation or a solution to rectify this noncompliance. If it is necessary for me or ms.sanemom to bring the boys to the court ordered therapy every week, then I will make the arrangements with therapist, but it was my understanding that the judge felt that BPDm and mr.sanemom should alternate bringing the boys to see therapist for balance. If there is something I am missing in this situation, now is the time to address it, I am keeping an open mind. If I don't hear back fromBODm or her attorney by next week,I will have to ask the court to make other arrangements so that the boys get the therapy they require."

I think you have been very fair with BPDm considering what she has done, and that she is thumbing her nose at the therapy is over the line (in my opinion).

[bravhart1]

Dream girl, I wish I could see the BPDm in our case like you do, but for some of us BPDm isn't a worried grown up with a child's mentality. Some of the BPD's we deal with like the one I deal with and I'm thinking the one that sanemom deals with is a much more malicious and conniving person.

BPDm in my case is a very mean, vindictive and hateful person. She actively seeks out and does things that hurt me, my family and my SD, and does not miss a single opportunity to do so.

Once you have lived under that kind of terrorism you begin to be jaded and self protective. I always appreciate your alternative view of how the mentally ill person is feeling and how much compassion you have for your SD's mom. But if you had to watch your SD ( or SS) be abused mentally, physically, and emotionally to the degree that some of us here do, you would understand our staunch, and yes at times hostile attitude toward the person who is doing so, for whatever reason.

At the very least, there are many occasions that justify holding the line, or boundary for the greater good.

[sanemom]

Dream girl, I wish I could see the BPDm in our case like you do, but for some of us BPDm isn't a worried grown up with a child's mentality. Some of the BPD's we deal with like the one I deal with and I'm thinking the one that sanemom deals with is a much more malicious and conniving person.

BPDm in my case is a very mean, vindictive and hateful person. She actively seeks out and does things that hurt me, my family and my SD, and does not miss a single opportunity to do so.

Once you have lived under that kind of terrorism you begin to be jaded and self protective. I always appreciate your alternative view of how the mentally ill person is feeling and how much compassion you have for your SD's mom. But if you had to watch your SD ( or SS) be abused mentally, physically, and emotionally to the degree that some of us here do, you would understand our staunch, and yes at times hostile attitude toward the person who is doing so, for whatever reason.

At the very least, there are many occasions that justify holding the line, or boundary for the greater good.

I definitely think our BPDmom has some antisocial traits, but I think the reason she doesn't bring the boys to therapy is that she believes the therapist is judging her (the therapist is the one who saw her alienating the kids and testified to it in court) so what DG says there rings true.

The order isn't signed yet so I think we can bring up her noncompliance with the counselor when we go in front of the judge to have the order entered (bc I know that she will not just sign it that easily).

At the same time, I felt that this CPS mess was fueled by her conniving maliciousness... .the phrase seen repeatedly in her texts and emails to DH was, "I don't want to hurt you", and I feel that is EXACTLY what she wanted to do.  She works for CPS... .she knew EXACTLY what buttons to push and how they act around here.  I could have temporarily lost my kids, and she knew that.  I could have lost my ability to work in my career, and she knew that.  Although she is the one who left DH and remarried, she is mad that DH moved on and is happy.

[DreamGirl]

 

Dream girl, I wish I could see the BPDm in our case like you do, but for some of us BPDm isn't a worried grown up with a child's mentality. Some of the BPD's we deal with like the one I deal with and I'm thinking the one that sanemom deals with is a much more malicious and conniving person.

BPDm in my case is a very mean, vindictive and hateful person. She actively seeks out and does things that hurt me, my family and my SD, and does not miss a single opportunity to do so.

Once you have lived under that kind of terrorism you begin to be jaded and self protective. I always appreciate your alternative view of how the mentally ill person is feeling and how much compassion you have for your SD's mom. But if you had to watch your SD ( or SS) be abused mentally, physically, and emotionally to the degree that some of us here do, you would understand our staunch, and yes at times hostile attitude toward the person who is doing so, for whatever reason.

At the very least, there are many occasions that justify holding the line, or boundary for the greater good.

I appreciate that there's a scale and you may not think I understand. I am lucky in that she's been neutralized for the most part.

I've also spent a lot of effort, time, and money to find a certain kind of medium. I've been to court. I've been falsely accused in court documents. My husband AND my son as well. The most difficult time was when she was married to a police officer... .harassment charges and a no contact order.

I could keep going.

My approach is different. I don't use catastrophic language like terrorism and abuse.  I prefer to understand her and accept that she's difficult. I don't advocate court when the solution lies in compromise. I've also watched my husband unjustly treated by a court system that still has bias. I have hard boundaries too, I just don't express them harshly. I learned how to communicate effectively with her. I humanize her because she's not a monster. It took a lot for me to get here, but it works for me. Not right or wrong, just right for me.

But don't think I don't know the effects that having a borderline soul in your life means, because I do.

[ForeverDad]

Well, you figured that she'd probably revert back to type at some point.  Even though the judge was somewhat hopeful, you had that little voice in the back of your head saying, ":)on't count those eggs as chickens quite yet... ."

My five second thought is whether her non-compliance now affects the order that hasn't even been written yet?  On the other hand, was everyone told to comply with the court instructions while the written order was slowly being written?  I worry that she will slip by on a technicality that while the judge said what to do, there isn't a written order yet?  How frustrating for the judge not to put anything in writing.  I've heard some judges do that, expecting some level of working together.  Or... .maybe he wants to see what happens... .cooperation or non-compliance?

[bravhart1]

From what I understand about how the orders work until they get written down and signed, is that the judge speaks them in open court, he basically says the orders out loud and the attorneys are to get the transcripts write them out and get them signed, but until that time, they are the orders still, so if he said bring the boys to therapy, he meant for them to go to therapy right away. If she is not obeying them already, she IS in fact breaking the order. It may not be a law, but it is not to be taken as a suggestion either.

You could file a motion, to say "hey, judge she is already skirting the order two weeks in, any ideas about how to get her to comply?"

He may just look at the whole thing and throw the book at her, meaning she could get ordered into some classes for people that can't obey orders, he could give you more time, let you take boys to all therapy or most likely give her some financial penalty (we can hope

[sanemom]

From what I understand about how the orders work until they get written down and signed, is that the judge speaks them in open court, he basically says the orders out loud and the attorneys are to get the transcripts write them out and get them signed, but until that time, they are the orders still, so if he said bring the boys to therapy, he meant for them to go to therapy right away. If she is not obeying them already, she IS in fact breaking the order. It may not be a law, but it is not to be taken as a suggestion either.

You could file a motion, to say "hey, judge she is already skirting the order two weeks in, any ideas about how to get her to comply?"

He may just look at the whole thing and throw the book at her, meaning she could get ordered into some classes for people that can't obey orders, he could give you more time, let you take boys to all therapy or most likely give her some financial penalty (we can hope

^^That's what I understand, too.  I am sure it will take time for her to even consider signing the order, and I am guessing she won't.

She apparently is very upset that the judge made a ruling that she is doing parental alienation and she doesn't see how... .she did end up going to one of the sessions for one DSS, and she took up his appointment last week flipping out about the ruling, but at least she came in.  BPD mom claims to have read up on PA (she probably did some googling) and doesn't think she does any of it.  I think the therapist is going to explain to the boys why the judge decided that (bc mom has told them that), and it will be based on their behaviors--refusing to talk with their dad, refusing therapy, and reporting things to CPS that were ruled out as untrue.  They don't even know that CPS ruled it all out yet.  I bet their mom has told them otherwise.

She is also assuming that we will be going back to court in 6 months--the judge said that if she didn't get her act together and support a relationship with the boys and their dad that we COULD go back to court.  Not sure if she doesn't understand OR if she just isn't planning on getting her act together... ..

This week we may get to talk about what happened finally with the boys... .I am going to ask the boys what happened from their perspective in the counselor's office.  Sunday night they understood that DH had an adverse medical reaction and he would be home on Monday; they were happy to see him in the hospital; by Monday they were demanding that he go to some kind of rehab for 90 days and were refusing to talk with him.  

DSS15 apparently has noticed that I am "being cold" (I think I have been cordial but distant), and he has no clue why.  He really doesn't get that he put my kids at risk due to his lying, and I am sorry, my Mama Bear doesn't trust him anymore.  I have a very difficult time being around either one of them.  The therapist wants to discuss how to regain trust... .not sure how we can at this point.

[bravhart1]

I've been there. It's rough. Sometimes I give myself permission to "fantasize" about not doing anything for SD or BPDm ever again. To "just stop caring", when I'm flooded with feelings about this mess I just check out for a bit. It's really all we can do. I eventually re-engage and come out of it, but I grow wearier after each battle.

I hear it all the time from everyone here and elsewhere about "self care" and the importance of doing things for bravhart once in awhile. I'll start if you will

[sanemom]

I've been there. It's rough. Sometimes I give myself permission to "fantasize" about not doing anything for SD or BPDm ever again. To "just stop caring", when I'm flooded with feelings about this mess I just check out for a bit. It's really all we can do. I eventually re-engage and come out of it, but I grow wearier after each battle.

I hear it all the time from everyone here and elsewhere about "self care" and the importance of doing things for bravhart once in awhile. I'll start if you will

I feel like my self-care is stepping away from the boys and taking care of my kids, and I seem to get "in trouble" for that, too.  Fortunately, not this time--the boys' counselor seems to understand why I can't stand to breathe their air after this mess.  I am trying to be happy about Christmas and not get too much bah-humbug about it (a bit difficult when money is this tight because of their BS). 

BPD mom claimed she hadn't seen the drafted order before she went in to see the counselor, but I really doubt that is true--I think she saw the PA part and got upset about it, and that is why she was all up in arms with the counselor.  Otherwise, I don't think she would be thinking about it (she would probably be pretending it didn't happen). 

BPD mom did not pay the counselor still--claimed that DH hasn't paid child support yet so she can't (gee--she hadn't paid child support in years and we still managed to pay the counselor).  The counselor is just a copay--wait until she gets the bill for the parent facilitator. 

[Kwamina]

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