Mother Wanting To Change Schools

[Turkish]

My Ex took on the action items last year, when S5 was in pre-kindergarten, to research schools in the area as alternatives to putting him into the default public school. Being busy with her soon-to-be new hubby, she dropped the ball.

The day of his pre-kinder graduation, I took us to the local public school and started the registration process. He started there this school year. It's something like a ghettoish district, but not too bad, other than his class has a lot of kids who act out. S5 told his mom, "some of the kids are difficult." 

The good news is that he is at the top of the class in math, probably more at a first grade level. He adds and when I introduced him to the concept of multiplication, he picked up on it right away. Like when he said, "5 20s make 100." I replied that another way of saying it was "5 times 20 equals 100. That's called multiplication, another way of adding." He paused for a beat and replied, "4 times 20 equals 80." I asked him where he learned this, in school (I knew not... .some of the kids have trouble counting to 20), or on tv. He replied, "my head told me that."

So after our parent-teacher conference yesterday, my Ex talked again about putting him in a charter school. Since it's the middle of the year, he'd have to be on a waiting list. I offered that it might be better for him to be one of the smartest kids in the class since it would encourage him. I don't like the word "self-esteem," but I think it would be good. My Ex said that he would be bored and it would be better for him to be in a class with kids who were further ahead, to push him to do better.

Here is where my cynicism comes in: "The fact that he has to go to an ordinary public school doesn't ruin his chances to get into Harvard."

Since we live in the Silicon Valley, the charter schools (part of the public school system, but not beholden to following the state-run curriculum to the letter) are more likely filled with Indians and various other Asian groups. They tend to push their kids very hard, and there is some truth to the "Tiger Mom" stereotype. I work with many in tech.

IMO, while I don't want the kids to be slackers, kids should be allowed to be kids. S5 is naturally good with numbers (when he was 2, he used to stare around rooms and count things to himself). I think there's no problem with supplementing this at home, and his teacher has already picked up on his talent in this area. If he transfers, it may be that he'll sit in the middle of the pack, or even lower, in comparison to his peers. It might be shocking to him. Given his emotional sensitivity, I think it might be more detrimental than harmful.

Besides, from what I have read, the kids who are behind and the kids who are pushed early usually get to the same level by 3rd grade.

I'm thinking of starting off the conversation something like, "we know how are son is. What's more detrimental to his mental health, boredom, or frustration and anger?"

[kells76]

Hi Turkish;

Do you think part of your ex's motivation to change S5's school is for her to be right, or in control? Or do you think it's more about her seeing S5's needs differently than you? Maybe both are motivating her? From how I remember reading you describe her, she doesn't sound highly oppositional just to be oppositional, correct?

I'm thinking about your possible conversation starter with her, about how you both know your son. I wonder if it has to be an "either-or": "Either it's worse for him to be bored, or it's worse for him to be frustrated/angry, but only one". Maybe both are true -- it'd be great if S5 could be engaged, and positive, and feels good about himself, and is challenged.

So I wonder if S5 could get all those great experiences without changing schools, but with acknowledging that Mom might be on to something. Sure, let's challenge S5 a little more, here in his current environment. Does the school have any kind of TAG program for young students? Is the school flexible enough that he could bump up with the 1st graders for math? Are there challenging clubs he could join? Can he be signed up for weekend day camps at the local college?

And I think you're right, too, Turkish... .Education is what you make of it, not where you are or end up. But with BPD parents involved, it sure isn't easy.

[livednlearned]

Are there other kids at the charter schools that look like him? Do the kids mix well or do they stay in cliques? What are the teachers like at the different schools (most K teachers are nurturing, it can drop off fairly quickly by 3rd grade in my experience). Does S5 like his teacher? Does he have friends? If you move him, will he think it's his fault in some way? Can you compare the average test scores for both schools and try to gauge how he will fare?

If S5 is emotionally sensitive, it might be worth comparing the guidance counselor and family specialist support teams too. S14's middle school was very diverse, at the elementary school feeding it, there were over 60 languages spoken. I don't know how we would've gotten through elementary school and middle school without the support staff having S14's back every step of the way.

Also, you won't know the right answer because there are too many variables.    S14 is at a charter school and of all the things I thought would make it better for him, the reason he likes it there weren't on my radar at all.

Not sure I mentioned this before... .apologies if I'm repeating. There are two theories about gifted kids. One is that it's best to put them with other kids who are accelerated like them; the other is to encourage them to explain what they know to other kids. Some gifted kids are natural explainers. A lot of studies show that explainers don't necessarily do better or worse in more gifted schools, but regular learners do better when there are explainers in their classes.

[Turkish]

Not sure I mentioned this before... .apologies if I'm repeating. There are two theories about gifted kids. One is that it's best to put them with other kids who are accelerated like them; the other is to encourage them to explain what they know to other kids. Some gifted kids are natural explainers. A lot of studies show that explainers don't necessarily do better or worse in more gifted schools, but regular learners do better when there are explainers in their classes.

Not that I want S5 to be a little co-dependent, but the teacher already gave an example where she had him explain an addition and counting exercise to the kids in the class, because they were turning their heads and going "what?" after he blurted out an answer.

As for diversity, he's half Mexican. There is one Vietnamese kid in the class, and the rest Mexican. So no, it's not diverse. Both of us are going to start volunteering to read in groups in the class, because some of the kids hardly know their letters and numbers. I like reading to the kids. I do impressions  

kells76, now that the teacher has a handle on the kids after the first trimester, we are going to look into those things. No, she's not oppositional just to be oppositional.

One thing I forgot to mention, and this does perhaps go back to mom's anxiety (because in re-reading this it seems like I am complaining about something small): she also talked about D3 skipping kindergarten, "because she's smarter and might get bored." I said, "she's almost a year younger than her brother was when we had him in the same class. She can barely talk still." She said, "oh she talks a lot!" I replied, "I know, but her enunciation is still like that of a baby." I didn't point out the obvious- that according to California law, D3 can't start kindergarten until fall of 2017 due to her birthday. So we skip her a year and... .she sits in limbo for another school year?

There is a local charter school. I checked school accountability report card and the percentage of students who are proficient or advanced when measured against state standards is almost 20% higher than the rest of the district, and almost 30% higher than the state.

S5 already meets, and exceeds the standards. So going back to him so far being an "advanced" student, what it the advantage of transferring him? I checked the racial demographic, and it's no different, which is understandable, since it's basically in the same general neighborhood.

The charter school is big on using more tech to teach. S5's current school does now, too. I'm not so keen on "technology solving everything" as not being just another educational fad as well. Speaking as working for a large, recognizable tech company, they don't entirely donate tech out of the goodness of their hearts. Here I may be shooting myself in the foot.

The school he's at does have a GATE (gifted and talented) program. Not sure what grade that starts. Then again, he might "fail" the test as I did, missing it by 4 IQ points to qualify. Living in like 1880 with no electricity, running water and a kerosene heater, sleeping in chairs and sleeping bags with my BPD mom going through a severe depression period maybe didn't help  

Edit: they lowered the IQ score requirements. I would qualify now. Of the two kids in junior high that were in the program, one went on to be our high school valedictorian, and graduated Berekely Law School. The other did nothing close to that. So gifted doesn't necessarily translate to doing well in life; there are so many other factors.

[rarsweet]

I wonder if she is just pushing them so she looks good? Like two gifted kiddos are bragging rights? I do agree in encouraging talents in kids, especially in education. But 5 is a little young in my opinion to reconsider schools because of academics alone. Is he happy in his class? Does he feel weird? Are there things after school that could be done to encourage him educationally? My oldest daughter loves drama and there weren't really any programs in school for that. So I signed her up for community center drama camps. There are alternatives to meeting kids needs.

[Turkish]

I wonder if she is just pushing them so she looks good?

I think that is a large part of it. I don't like that she calls the kids "geniuses." My Ex is also into the corporate-speak. S5 told me the other week that when he fell of his scooter at the park, that she told him, "leaders get back up and don't quit. You're a leader, right?" I'm working on deprogramming them from fadish patenting without alienating them.

[formflier]

  Let kids be kids.  Since he is doing well I wouldn't worry about the academic side of things until upper elementary school.  Focus on the class being a positive experience, the learning is a byproduct.   Let school become "work" later. There is a lot of truth to letting him be the champ (number 1 in class) for a long time.  Then expose him in middle school/high school to getting "Rouseyed" (did I just make up a new word?) Then you can focus on manhood and how to "step up". That's really what your wife is trying to teach him, to "step up".  Waaaaay to early for that. The key, especially in tech, is to get them interested in tech being fun, and keeping their imagination alive. All kids need to be pushed but that needs to be age appropriate.  My oldest missed acing the ACT by 1 point.  He would sometimes roll his eyes at my efforts to "push" him.  My thought was that even Olympic athletes have a coach and sweat hard in the gym. Same kid is 20 years old now.  He and his buddies got access to a 3D printer and printed the body for a quad copter drone.  they are scrounging parts to put in it to make it flyable. He is also trying to make an automatic watering system for houseplants for his mom, some kind of sensors in the dirt are hooked up to some kind of controller. Anyway, that's what he tells me about when I ask him what he is doing for fun,                                      

FF

[livednlearned]

The one thing that would make me second-guess the current school are the number of kids acting out. If all other things are equal, and S5's nerve endings are on full-tilt 24/7, minimizing the amount of overstimulation may be the thing that helps him cope with all the other challenges he will face.

Interpersonal stress with peers is what pushed S14 over the edge. He got a free pass in 4th grade, literally. He was allowed to walk to the family specialists "quiet room" and exhale when he started to feel overstimulated. And it was something he actually did.

[Ulysses]

Hi Turkish

I don't know if it helps, but I can share my personal experience with public school decisions and education.  I'm not in your state but I'm in a metropolitan area that is home to hi-tech companies.  My S12 went to K-2 at a public school in one of the best districts in the state.  However, there was no differentiation in the classroom, so I was told that even though he understood the math and was ready to move along, he had to wait for the other children to "catch-up."  He got into the part-time gifted program, but didn't make the cut-off for full-time because they didn't use IQ scores, they decided based on group standardized tests.  His brand of gifted doesn't do as well on some parts of those tests.  K was a disaster, 1st grade ok because the teacher snuck in differentiation, 2 was awful, and he was bullied.  He was told he was weird, etc.  I took him to a private psychologist for counseling.  He also did assessment with my son, told me he needed private school.  I found one that concentrates on social and emotional learning as well as academics, and strives for diversity among its population.  Some 4th graders are doing calculus, but most are doing 5th grade math.  Many of the students can't catch a ball or tie their shoes at the age you would expect.  But they're not teased for it.

My exNPD/BPDh liked to/likes to brag about how smart our kids are.  When I got the testing results back from the psychologist I cried, because there are some anomalies in my S12's scores that will make some things very difficult for him.  So it's very possible that a parent will want to place their children in gifted programs because of the prestige associated with it in their mind.  I listened to my exH for years when we were still married, tell me that the only difference with our S is that he's "really really smart."  My gut told me otherwise, and sure enough, he does have traits that put him on the spectrum.

Do you have a school counselor who can help advise you?  What about a private psychologist or education consultant?  Sometimes school psychologists also practice privately and can assess your children.  Perhaps their mother would agree to it if you discuss it in terms of finding the best fit for them since they appear to be so bright, etc.  Maybe your school counselor can pave the way by recommending it.  Or, if you school has a school psychologist, they can maybe do the assessment for free.  Sometimes educational assessments and tests can help you understand your child's strengths and weaknesses better, so you'll know what kind of learner they might be. 

I personally haven't found that all children equal out by 3rd grade.  In my personal experience, it was a line the teachers told parents when they didn't want to bother teaching different levels in their classroom.  Not all adults are the same intellectually and academically, why would all children of any age be?  The Australian term for that is something about cutting down the tall poppies.  Think about it- "your child understands the math but he has to wait until the other children understand it and then can move on with them."  3-4 years of that kind of teaching, and probably yes, all the children will be close to the same level.  But I could go on and on about the difficulties of pedagogy, which isn't the point of your post.

As for whether or not your son is better off being where he is, I don't know.  If there are behavioral issues that might be frustrating for him if he's trying to learn.  Or he could pick up bad habits.  It just depends.  Does he have peers there?  Intellectual peers, peers he can play with and connect with?  My S didn't until he started at the private school.  He tried to talk to children about his interests, and they didn't understand what he was talking about.  He was pretty lonely.  Sometimes girls who are gifted are fine until they reach middle school.  If their needs aren't addressed, then they might have difficulties.  Have you read any literature on gifted and/or highly sensitive children?

Have you ever visited your son's classroom/school day to see what it's like?  It's a big red flag if they don't let you.

Are you sure the charter school doesn't have the diversity you're looking for and is filled with pushy parents?  Is it possible for you to visit the school, talk to some parents, and see what you think?  I did that with a few private schools and I was uncomfortable at some that felt snobby.  When I visited the one my children are now at, I felt like I had come home.  There are parents from much higher socio-economic groups than I am in, and there are parents whose children achieve much more than mine probably ever will, but day-to-day my kids are happy and love going there.

Good luck with everything. 

[Ulysses]

I don't like that she calls the kids "geniuses."

Yes.  Another reason I'm glad my children are in private school with other gifted children.  K-2, adults would come up to me and in front of S would say things like your kid's a genius/really smart, etc.  I felt awkward and got worried that my S was hearing this - how would it affect him?  Plus, how do you respond?  Now my children are around kids who are better at them in some things, and not in others.  They aren't always the smartest, not by any stretch of the imagination.

In my sassier moments when my kids aren't around, if someone says that, I tell them, yes he/she is very smart.  It's genetic but I've been assured by medical professionals that it's a condition that skips a generation.