Indirect vs. Direct Communication Styles

[Cat Familiar]

If you've read my other threads, one of my main complaints with my husband is his lack of responsibility and follow-through in taking care of little things around the house. Yes, it's really an insignificant problem when compared with cheating, domestic violence and financial irresponsibility, which I had to deal with in my first marriage. However, it is very annoying to be picking up after him, fixing things he broke, wasting precious resources, etc. just due to his lack of mindfulness (and he thinks of himself as a Buddhist!). The problem is that I brought his attention to these minor issues too many times and he took it as me criticizing him and thinking he was a "bad person."

It could have been something as simple as me closing the silverware drawer in the kitchen that he had left open while he was using the cutting board above it while I was putting away dishes from the dishwasher. It seems so insignificant, but I've had the experience of cleaning out food particles that fell on the clean silverware from the use of the cutting board above. I wouldn't say anything, just close the drawer and suddenly, in his mind, I had told him he was "a bad person."

I'm a very laid-back person and I seldom get upset, but I expected to be able to say things like: "If you leave wet clothes in the washing machine for a few days, it will create mildew inside." If I had done that and someone had told me, I would be embarrassed and I would make sure it didn't happen again. Not him.

So I realized that by telling him about things that he had done or neglected to do, it was adding to his burden of shame. I had brought it up in marriage counseling a couple of years ago and said perhaps the most unkind thing I ever said to him, but it was descriptive, not an intentional slight: "It's like living with a teenager." He still brings it up; it really hit the target; it was absolutely true.

Waverider describes this behavior as need-driven without the responsibility to follow through and complete the task; it's like whack a mole. You get rid of one behavior and another one pops up. This is a perfect description.

As most BPDs do, my husband overgeneralized about my nitpicking nature: "All you do is criticize me." I took that to heart and for months, suppressed anything that might be perceived as a criticism, until I became so resentful that I realized I needed to say something about things that really bothered me. It's true that I have OCD tendencies and that I like order and cleanliness. Really, my husband isn't a slob and things could be a lot worse as far as his level of responsibility. But I realized that I have to pick my battles.

He'd been out of town for a week and I had a nice stay-cation. All our conversation had been pleasant since his return. Then he did something that I felt I needed to say something about. We have a bucket on the kitchen counter that I use for broccoli stems, orange peels, over-ripe fruit and ugly vegetables, etc. for the goats and sheep. He was slicing a partial onion that had been wrapped in plastic in the refrigerator and he put the plastic in the bucket. I picked up the bucket, noticed the plastic, removed it, and asked if there was any more plastic wrap in the bucket (sum total of my communication). He immediately became livid and said: "I'm not trying to kill the animals."

Fast forward to Sunday evening. We had a nice dinner at a restaurant and came home. I was upstairs changing clothes and I heard him come in the house, presumably for a glass of wine. (The TV is in his studio and he was watching a football game). When I went downstairs, the sliding glass door was about four inches ajar and cold air was quickly cooling the room--it's been freezing at night. One of our cats lives in the house and on that side, there's no fence, and the coyotes have been quite vocal lately.

I walked into the studio and said: "You left the door open." This sent him into a dysregulation. He brought up the plastic in the bucket from the previous evening, told me that all I do is criticize him, that I think he's a terrible person, that he "walks on eggshells" (WOW!) around me, thinking that he's going to do something wrong, that maybe he should find another place to live, that I hate him, on and on... .you get the picture.

I tried SET, I tried validating, but I realized that I had to respond in a bit of an irritated way too, or he would see the SET and validating as me "using some technique" on him. So I kept at it, mixing it up, and soon the dysregulation was over and we were talking calmly. I told him, yes, I do have these OCD tendencies and I realize it came from living with my mother and trying to create some sense of order out of randomness and chaos. It was a survival technique for me as a child and it was the only sense of control and stability I had and I'm sorry if you take my need for order as criticism.

He then told me that I should have said: "The door was open. I was wondering if you might have noticed it." He told me the way I said it was meant to shame him. He said that he never tries to shame me.

I laughed to myself and thought--here's this "lack of agency" again. He was hurt that I said "You left the door open."

I pointed out that the other day he told me about leaving the garage door open (which he also does very frequently--but I haven't told him--I just leave it open for him to discover.) We have three garage doors and he's programmed his cars to open their respective doors, but not the other ones, so he doesn't have to keep the opener in the car. My truck doesn't have this feature, so I have an opener.

We were both leaving and I drove off first, forgetting to close the garage door and he had to stop his car, go back into the garage and close the door I had left open. He told me this long anecdote later about how much I had inconvenienced him and how "funny" it was that I had just driven off, so oblivious to this, as if I'm some entitled person and he's my servant.

I pointed out that the way he said that, he was trying to shame me. (I've got such a thick skin at this point in my life, I can completely ignore this sort of thing, but I thought it was a useful comparison.) Then it occurred to me that our styles are quite different: "you left the door open" vs. a long story which he tried to frame as humorous instead of what it really was to him, which was irritating.

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[flourdust]

Oh, wow, it's another "it's not just me" post!

He then told me that I should have said: "The door was open. I was wondering if you might have noticed it." He told me the way I said it was meant to shame him. He said that he never tries to shame me.

I laughed to myself and thought--here's this "lack of agency" again. He was hurt that I said "You left the door open."

I'm sorry, but this made me laugh. Yes, I have often been told that I'm responsible for my wife's rages because my phrasing was off by a word or two. A particularly epic dysregulation (which culminated with ":)on't come home, I'm hiring a lawyer and changing the locks" began when I mentioned that I'd heard from her estranged father. I mentioned I'd last heard from him months ago, and when she was surprised by that, I said "Yeah, I told you that at the time." My fault was in implying that she had memory problems, and I was instructed I should have used phrasing that didn't in any way hint that we'd had that discussion before.

And we were off to the races. I left when she was acting like she was going to hurl her food at me (we were at a restaurant), as well as all the divorce threats.

And, yes, I know that any kind of minor criticism from me is a huuuuge problem, but she can dish it out with a condescending chuckle all day. Unfortunately, we've moved past the minor irresponsibilities (leaving bottles of all kinds -- including prescription medicine -- open) and into full-blown sloth. Piles of untended junk are everywhere, and I've given up trying to clean most of the house, because there's no way to vacuum or dust when every surface and most floors have stuff all over them.

[Cat Familiar]

flourdust, I'm glad you laughed. It is funny!

In his world, doors open themselves as do hot tub covers and boxes of cereal magically dump contents on the floor and bread conspires to leave crumbs on the counter.

Your situation is so much more difficult than mine and I want to assure you that through learning the lessons here, it is indeed possible to minimize the rages, however they many never go away entirely. It certainly helps when they're willing to go to therapy and I modeled that behavior by starting therapy myself (and it was to learn to manage his behavior more than dealing with my issues. I'm pretty happy with myself--I've definitely got stuff to work on, but I was so depleted being around him. Fortunately my psychologist had seen us together, so no explanation of him was needed.)

It certainly helps to post here too. There's a lot of us dealing with the same stuff, particularly if you subtract the details and just look at the overarching patterns. 

[Notwendy]

Great post Cat, as if I dare say anything to my H that he could possibly perceive as a criticism, he tells me I am attacking him.

But it is my H who is the picky one. It drives me nuts. Now, I don't do careless things like put plastic in animal food, but I am the main caretaker for the kids, and so, being a perfectionist with kids, isn't my goal, nor is it desirable.

So, I would have one of those days where one kid is up all night and we spend hours at the doctors office getting ears checked, or they get rambunctious. He could come in from work and the first thing that he might say is " how did these fingerprints get on the wall?"

Well for goodness sake, one of the kids had touched the wall with their little sticky fingers when I turned around, but they are fed, bathed, got their medicine and well taken care of, and you notice a sticky kid print on the wall?  

Or if I asked him to help, he'd say "I keep my things straight, so what is the problem?". Yes, he keeps HIS things straight, but I do everything else, but he wouldn't pick up a toy or wash a dish if I asked him.

Like you said, I feel grateful that we don't deal with things like DV or cheating, but I didn't feel as if I could ask him to participate with me in the work of taking care of the kids. He would maintain that is wasn't fair. I was not asking for unfair, or even 50-50, just a hand once in a while.

[Cat Familiar]

Notwendy, I had to laugh when I thought about your husband equating keeping his things tidy, so "what is the problem" with you keeping everything tidy with the kids? You must have wanted to smack him when he said that. I certainly would have felt that way. Perhaps you're much more tolerant than me, but I think I would have been so completely overwhelmed at that point that I would have had a major meltdown.

I'm not a totally meticulous housekeeper, not by any means. I'd much rather be doing something outside. I just like some semblance of order and cleanliness. I've often said that the exterior reflects the interior. When I'm feeling crummy, my house goes to pot. And when I feel good about myself, the house looks beautiful and peaceful.

I had an epiphany about the communication styles: indirect vs. direct.

He wants to be frequently praised for the good things he does. Even though I do that, it seems like he doesn't allow himself to hear and acknowledge it. Which is frustrating as hell to me--to be told that I never tell him how much I appreciate him. I do, and I do that a lot.

On the other hand, if something goes wrong, he doesn't want to be identified with it. For example, in his world, "it got lost"; "it was broken"; "that fell down"; "it disappeared"; "it didn't get paid"; "someone left it (when it was only him who had access to it)"

This used to drive me mad, since there are only two of us living in the house. I felt like he was refusing to take responsibility for something that he clearly did, or didn't do.

Now, I realize, it's that shame burden. It's like a little child lying about something they broke, when it's obvious it was them.

[Notwendy]

Cat, I have had my share of meltdowns and wanting to smack him. In the long run, it was just easier to just not have major expectations for help with the kids. I am grateful that he has taken on the role of supporting the family and making is possible for them to attend college.

I do get the shame thing. I sometimes wish I could smack my father in law for being verbally critical and shaming. Of what little I know about him, he had a very sad childhood and no doubt felt unloved as a child himself. I think the best I can do is not pass that on. My kids, thankfully, feel loved.

But I can't do a whole lot about the fact that I ( and I am not nearly the size or strength of my H or FIL) can say something and at that moment, to my H, I am as threatening and menacing as my FIL appeared to him when he was a little boy.

It actually makes me sad, because, all the while, my H had a warm, loving wife, but he just couldn't see it past the pain his father created. Fortunately, my H has also been aware of not passing this on to the kids.

I can understand why, in my H's home, it is better to not admit to anything, even if you got caught as a kid with your hand in the cookie jar, because his dad would have been all over him if he admitted it.

His dad was a good man, but he was a critical man. I know he loved his family, but in his day, didn't know how not to pass on his own shame and pain.

[Daniell85]

I am very direct, too.

It seems like a BPD trait to instruct people how to speak to them.

"you need to say it THIS way".

It's like what? You are incapable of comprehending what I just said to you?

I guess so.

I am not feeling a lot of patience with it lately. It's exhausting.

[Notwendy]

I get that too- I should have said it this way or that way, or else he doesn't understand me.

Yet somehow he managed to get through school and college with people speaking to him, in the same language.

I have often wondered if we speak different languages, but as far as I can tell, we both speak English.

Really, I'd learn another one if it worked better!

[flourdust]

I get that ALL THE TIME. It's one of her favorite weapons for beating up on me -- I used clear English in my own words instead of following a script I'm supposed to have memorized. For a while, I tried to remember the scripts, as if that would make everything better. Now I just ignore the nonsense.

[ArleighBurke]

CatFamiliar: I too can relate to your experience. Telling him he's left the door open... .My wife would react the same.

One technique I've tried is to apply SET to this! So I may say "I understand that you've had a long day and you're probably tired. And it's annoying that it feels like there's no end to our responsibilities. If you're like me your heads probably full of the things you SHOULD do. But I just noticed that the sliding door was left open. I know it's a little thing, but it lets the cold air in and I'm also worried about the cats. I would appriciate it if you could remember to close it"

It's "fluffy" and feels like WAAAAY too many words, but my wife responds to it well.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm in good company with this little communication issue and I'm sorry for all of you who have to deal with this. Really, we all just want to be ourselves with our loved ones. Then to learn that how we naturally are is not acceptable to them is really frustrating and annoying, particularly because they instruct us to jump through these hoops and then move the hoops, just when we're starting to understand what they want.

And as several of you point out, somehow they can navigate the world where English is spoken, yet so often, they will label us "poor communicators" yet here we post, trying desperately hard to understand them and to make our relationships better.

Rant over.

One of my problems with my husband is that he's very intelligent and is a lawyer, who is very aware of language usage. If I try to say something to "soften" an observation, if it doesn't sound fluid and natural, he will notice and think I'm trying to be "manipulative". He accompanied me yesterday to visit another attorney who will represent me at a deposition on Friday and we all spoke about how I would present the issue I will be questioned about. Quick overview: I hired a neighbor to do tractor work on our property. He worked on another property simultaneously and some months later, destroyed a piece of equipment, unbeknownst to me.  I did him a favor and paid for that equipment to be transported to the other job site, because he was broke at the time, figuring that we'd settle finances later. The plaintiff's attorney spoke with my husband earlier this summer and told him about the issue and my husband told him waaaay too much, and then asked him to represent me at the deposition the defense attorney set. When his secretary called me last week, I saw major red flags and figured he (the plaintiff's attorney) was trying to set me up as a defendant. I got a different attorney, called my insurance agent, and spoke to both of them about my concerns. They all agreed with me.

So, my lawyer husband really f*cked up and screwed me over inadvertently and now I've got to be deposed, knowing that he gave ammunition to the plaintiff's attorney to try to rope me into this mess.

So now I have to watch every word that comes out of my mouth at this deposition. Fortunately I'm very good at being laid back and strategic. The irony is that I have to be very aware of just answering questions, not being "helpful", not saying any more than I need to. In other words: BEING DIRECT.   It's pretty funny to have my husband coach me on this.

[Notwendy]

I am grateful my H is not an attorney, but I have always said he would make a brilliant one. He can build a case on something and make it sound so logical, true and convincing.

For years, he convinced me that he was the logical one and I was an emotional mess, because during the times I was "on the stand" and tryig to JADE, I would get frustrated and cry.

Until I started to listen. My breakthrough was when I had just bought a nice present for his mother, and taken the time to make sure it would be something she liked - spoke to my H's sister about it. Then, he went on some rant about how I was rude to his family. He made that assumption out of something I did that was not related to his family at all. The whole thing sounded so logical and convincing, but the paradox of the accusation and the recent gift made it so obvious to me that his feeling was not based on anything that was true. I also knew not to JADE.

So now these things don't progress the way they used to.

[Cat Familiar]

Kudos, Notwendy.      My husband outweighs me by at least 70 pounds and is several inches taller and when he used to use his lawyerly skills to intimidate me verbally, it really worked.

Now I can use my Asperger persona and just look at him with a blank look and that seems to stop him in his tracks. Good thing I've gotten a fair amount of practice using that self in this relationship because I'll need it for the deposition on Friday. 

[Notwendy]

Kudos to you too.

A couple of times, when it seems like a rant, I have actually started giggling. I know that this isn't validating, and adding fuel to the fire, but it is a better reaction to me than the hurt and tears that I had when I took all the insults and accusations to heart.

Now, I consider if they involve something I need to make amends for or if they are not based on fact. I guess that means amends for the giggling too. It just seemed to happen when I realized the accusation made no sense.

[Cat Familiar]

It's been a couple of days since I've had this realization about communication styles being very different for my husband and me.

In particular, he wants to be excessively praised for good things he has done, yet on the other hand, he doesn't want to be identified as the "doer" of neglectful or oblivious behaviors.

So I have to say things like: I'm so appreciative that you did X (bought tickets for us to see David Sedaris). And conversely Y "happened" without his agency (that the hot tub cover was left open overnight when it was freezing weather).

I'm OK with this linguistic trick. However, I know that I will forget on occasion and it irks me to feel like I cannot just say what is on my mind; I have to run it through some complex BPD algorithm first.

I'm getting less resentful but it really is a continual challenge to analyze my speech, filtering out any possible potential insult, certainly nothing that would trigger a non.

[formflier]

 

Cat familiar,

I would try to tweak the way you go about this.

"Please remember to shut the sliding door... "

"Please don't put plastic in the bucket... .do you know if there is anything else in here... ?"

You may find that by asking for the outcome... vice stating what you thought he did... .it softens things.

The "I'm not trying to kill the animals... " type of response is something I can't stand. 

So... I try to stay calm and ask how that relates to the topic at hand... ."understand" who thinks he is trying to kill animals... .and basically make it a horrible experience for things like that to exit my wife's mouth... .

I would say about half the time I am truly trying to see if anything is there... .if there is a point... .and about the other half of the time I am "making a point".

My guess is that my methods are not exactly "BPD friendly"... .but... .off the wall responses have seemed to decrease.

One thing that I am sure of from reading your posts... .not saying anything is not good for you. 

Granted... .I don't think you should mention every offense either...

Hope this helps... .

FF

[formflier]

 

Try this one on... .yeah... .there is a bit of smart a$$ to it... but... might work.

"Honey... .I hear you and understand you feel that everyone thinks you are trying to kill our animals, I feel differently, let me know how I can emotionally support you as you deal with this... "

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Great suggestions, FF. I like having a variety of ways to respond to what I know will be inevitable situations coming my way in the future. These are good ways for me to be direct, yet at the same time, soften what might sound like criticism to him. I don't mind doing some of the BPD word play at times, but when I feel like I have to always scuttle my natural responses, I know I will become rebellious. And you are absolutely right, FF, stuffing my words and emotions is not good for me. When I first came here to BPD Family a year ago, I was so angry. Now I can be slightly irritated (to really annoyed at times) but I'm not generally angry as my daily emotion. Thanks to everyone here for creating such a safe and supportive community.   

[formflier]

 

From time to time... .when I feel like it.  I "just say it".

In your case... "Honey... .I can't believe you are being so irresponsible with the fridge door... it's open again.  Can you work on this for me?"

Let him flip out if he wants... .

Now... this should be a minor part of the way you do things... .but it's also not goo for him to have you tiptoeing around him.

You have the skills to clean up the mess... .you also have the knowledge that it will blow over.

FF