the manipulation and stealing continues

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Some history: (this is very long -sorry)

exdil stole all 12 year old gd's pocket money from her account ($350) and did not pay it back. I replaced the money (with some trepidation) with conditions ie it was a one off, exdil was not to know, there was to be a new account set up the exdil had no access to. Then gd needed a computer for school but was too scared to talk to her mother (who should pay half) about this and so I decided if gd worked I would match the pocket money from her father and that way no one would have to talk to her mother which always results in rages and refusals. Fast forward mother finds out about computer goes and buys the most expensive with security software worth $400 that covers all her devices at home then tells her ex (our son) that he and gd must pay him back. When he asks for a copy of the receipt she refuses to give it. My advice no receipt then no money as a boundary must be drawn and consider the money stolen from gd the payment.

Yesterday on a walk with me, gd revealed that she feels she needs to pay more for the computer and that it is only fair she pays half for the computer and half for the flute her father is about to buy her. Then she said I owed her more pocket money but accepted the fact that I said I would only pay up until the time she got the computer. I said to her that this is adults talk and should be between mummy and daddy she should not be involved. I also said that because mummy stole her money and didn't give it back that this could then be considered a payment and she does not owe anymore money. I mentioned the receipt and that you never pay any money to anyone without proof of purchase etc.

Gd kept saying but I want to pay. She did reveal that daddy doesn't want to be paid for the flute and I think from the conversation that exdil knows I paid the money back and paid pocket money. I am not going to say anything about that as it is so hard for a naïve 12 year old to withstand the manipulation of a wily adult.

Red flags started appearing for me. I have been on the receiving end of exdil's manipulation where she will be really sweet until you deny her then instant rage and nastiness occurs. I have a feeling that is how exdil is tackling the problem ie rage didn't work with her father so she will try to get more money from gd (having witnessed it, the manipulation is so much like in the movie Gone Girl it is scary!). Exdil has just quit another job after a few months of work so is back on welfare so I guess is trying to get money from wherever.

I admit to my shame I called her mother a thief when maybe I should have said it is thieving behaviour. Gd cried and went to her father. She still wanted to sit by me and have a cuddle and we talked a little after she said I don't know who to trust. My only answer was to say you need to look to the past and who tells the truth and who doesn't. This is such a hard lesson and I am not very good about subtle language as some of it I find manipulative in itself. Did I do right? Possibly not.

I have spoken to her father about this is a parents problem and you need to sort it. I also sent an email the gist of it being:

1)You set a boundary of give me a copy of the receipt and then I will pay you so you should stick to it. It will be hard on you both but if gd gets into the habit of enabling too then exdil will still con money, jewellery etc out of her even when she is 25. I explained enabling and that by not setting boundaries others enable her behaviour to continue.

2)I gave some thoughts as to how if they were going to give her money after seeing the receipt  it could be split and make the stolen money part of the equation including mentioning the new flute that she will refuse to pay for.

3) I will be reluctant to give gd money in the future as I feel exdil will somehow wheedle it away from her.

To me there are a few problems. Son and gd enable exdil's behaviour, there are no boundaries set (except by me, the hard exmil), exdil continues to steal any which way she can, gd has a bad role model and may be some of the problem is mine after working hard all my life I find this behaviour abhorrent. Should I just relax about it?

I don't know if any of this is the right way to tackle these problems. My son is naive and after years of abuse on all levels any fight has been knocked out of him, my husband though lovely buries his head in the sand and I sometimes feel I am the only one willing to tackle the problem. However I also feel it is not about us it is about giving gd the strength and means to create her own boundaries and see what is right and wrong. I feel for gd she is way to young to have to deal with this crap!

What would others do in these circumstances? Are there any books that can be recommended for gd and son> They have read An Umbrella for Alex and he has read Walking on Egg Shells.

[mother in law]

Some history: (this is very long -sorry)

exdil stole all 12 year old gd's pocket money from her account ($350) and did not pay it back. I replaced the money (with some trepidation) with conditions ie it was a one off, exdil was not to know, there was to be a new account set up the exdil had no access to. Then gd needed a computer for school but was too scared to talk to her mother (who should pay half) about this and so I decided if gd worked I would match the pocket money from her father and that way no one would have to talk to her mother which always results in rages and refusals. Fast forward mother finds out about computer goes and buys the most expensive with security software worth $400 that covers all her devices at home then tells her ex (our son) that he and gd must pay him back. When he asks for a copy of the receipt she refuses to give it. My advice no receipt then no money as a boundary must be drawn and consider the money stolen from gd the payment.

Yesterday on a walk with me, gd revealed that she feels she needs to pay more for the computer and that it is only fair she pays half for the computer and half for the flute her father is about to buy her. Then she said I owed her more pocket money but accepted the fact that I said I would only pay up until the time she got the computer. I said to her that this is adults talk and should be between mummy and daddy she should not be involved. I also said that because mummy stole her money and didn't give it back that this could then be considered a payment and she does not owe anymore money. I mentioned the receipt and that you never pay any money to anyone without proof of purchase etc.

Gd kept saying but I want to pay. She did reveal that daddy doesn't want to be paid for the flute and I think from the conversation that exdil knows I paid the money back and paid pocket money. I am not going to say anything about that as it is so hard for a naïve 12 year old to withstand the manipulation of a wily adult.

Red flags started appearing for me. I have been on the receiving end of exdil's manipulation where she will be really sweet until you deny her then instant rage and nastiness occurs. I have a feeling that is how exdil is tackling the problem ie rage didn't work with her father so she will try to get more money from gd (having witnessed it, the manipulation is so much like in the movie Gone Girl it is scary!). Exdil has just quit another job after a few months of work so is back on welfare so I guess is trying to get money from wherever.

I admit to my shame I called her mother a thief when maybe I should have said it is thieving behaviour. Gd cried and went to her father. She still wanted to sit by me and have a cuddle and we talked a little after she said I don't know who to trust. My only answer was to say you need to look to the past and who tells the truth and who doesn't. This is such a hard lesson and I am not very good about subtle language as some of it I find manipulative in itself. Did I do right? Possibly not.

I have spoken to her father about this is a parents problem and you need to sort it. I also sent an email the gist of it being:

1)You set a boundary of give me a copy of the receipt and then I will pay you so you should stick to it. It will be hard on you both but if gd gets into the habit of enabling too then exdil will still con money, jewellery etc out of her even when she is 25. I explained enabling and that by not setting boundaries others enable her behaviour to continue.

2)I gave some thoughts as to how if they were going to give her money after seeing the receipt  it could be split and make the stolen money part of the equation including mentioning the new flute that she will refuse to pay for.

3) I will be reluctant to give gd money in the future as I feel exdil will somehow wheedle it away from her.

To me there are a few problems. Son and gd enable exdil's behaviour, there are no boundaries set (except by me, the hard exmil), exdil continues to steal any which way she can, gd has a bad role model and may be some of the problem is mine after working hard all my life I find this behaviour abhorrent. Should I just relax about it?

I don't know if any of this is the right way to tackle these problems. My son is naive and after years of abuse on all levels any fight has been knocked out of him, my husband though lovely buries his head in the sand and I sometimes feel I am the only one willing to tackle the problem. However I also feel it is not about us it is about giving gd the strength and means to create her own boundaries and see what is right and wrong. I feel for gd she is way to young to have to deal with this crap!

What would others do in these circumstances? Are there any books that can be recommended for gd and son> They have read An Umbrella for Alex and he has read Walking on Egg Shells.

[rarsweet]

In my experience it is easier to handle money situations on your own. Seriously I don't ask my daughter's father for anything, he hasn't contributed at all. I don't care, it's easier not to deal with the b.s. I would try to keep gd out of the info about finances as much as possible. She really doesn't need to know.  Remind me, does she live with you or her dad?

[Panda39]

Is therapy an option for your son and granddaughter?  Sometimes that outside support and perspective can be helpful and it takes you out of the triangle. 

Panda39

[Turkish]

Through all of this, your grand daughter's feelings stick out, she doesn't know whom to trust. I do agree with the boundary regarding the receipt. I can't understand, however, the desire gd has to pay for anything.

There's a drama triangle here involving 4 people, one of whom is a pre-teen minor. The switch between Persecotor-Rescuer-Victim roles seem to be fluid, and probably change depending upon which of you is viewing it. It's cinfusing enough for an adult, much less a 12 yo. How can you step out of your role, thereby helping gd step out of hers? Not all triangulation is unhealthy.

Can you step out of the conflict between the three of them while suporting your gd? Perhaps set up a seperate account with gd, similar to what rarsweet is saying. Get the three of them deal with their money issues. Validate when gd wants to talk to you about things,.and it will probably build her trust in Grandma's Wisdom.

[mother in law]

Rarsweet my son does normally handle money situations on his own. The bother of getting her to pay is not worth the aggro he also normally pays anything else she asks for. He does not earn alot in his job. She is nearly always kept out of the loop re money but her mother drags her back in.   Gd is with mum 5 nights and her dad every weekend. 

Panda I don't think either would go to counseling I have broached this before to no avail. I think for gd she feels she is being disloyal to her mother which I guess I understand.

Turkish gd feels the obligation to pay because it is being placed on her by her mother.  The helping pay in the 1 St place came after the money was stolen by her mother. I didn't want to be seen as a rescuer for all time,  I wanted her to be part off the solution and I wanted her to feel some sort of achievement in getting this computer.  A separate account has been set up to which her mother has no access whence the manipulation by mum to try and get the money while sidestepping dad who wants to see the receipt.

I will try to step out of the situation but it is hard to see gd wearing this while her mother manipulates and her father buries his head in the sand.  I should never have said her mother is a thief and I did apologise. Ares there any books that explain to children how to recognise and withstand this manipulation? Gd did once call it emotional violence after a talk about domestic abuse at school !

[Turkish]

That is tough that your gd recognized and named the dynamic after the talk at school...

It's unfortunate that those us with borderline parents can be pushed to growing up early, as it were. I certainly was, without a grandma in my corner 

As a Leaver, and as the child of a borderline mother, I'll offer, "gd, you're not responsible for anyone else's feelings but your own, and that includes me."

That might be too much to place on her. It might be good to gently lead her there without alienating her from her parents.

All in all, what's the worst that can happen if she chosses to pay?

[mother in law]

Turkish I did say once when her mother was going on about us that there is a saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me" so don't take on board what someone else says.  She seemed to get that.

I guess I feel that if she pays it is a never ending cycle and will be expected always and somehow we need to break it. And theoretically she has paid already. Some how we need to get gd to recognise manipulation and break the cycle of exdil trying to con money from her.

I realise we cannot change or reason with her mother.

[mother in law]

Turkish I realized after writing the last post that at 12 she is not really going to recognize manipulation but I would like to help her deal with this.  She is actually quite good when her mother rages. She doesn't get involved and is quite brave when her mother is angry and illogical. I guess it is just time till she realizes mummy is not going to parent as most parents  do.

Maybe I am unrealistic to expect the manipulation and stealing to stop.  Am I?