Emotional Enmeshment, Projection

[Turkish]

Except for Monday night (which I gave to her for whatever reason... .rescuing?) I have the kids until next Sunday per the stipulation, and the holiday.

She texted me tonight asking if I had nice clothes for S5 and D3 to wear on Christmas. I BIFFed it, "yes." Then she asked me again in a different way. I BIFFed it again.

She hasn't seen my friends in two years (I have the kids for this week; she knows I am going to see my friends), yet she's anxious about the kids being dressed well on my time.  In her mind, this reflects on her. This is even though my friends would think she is weird if I told them. I don't hang with narcissistic people. I can be sarcastic, but I stifled my tendencies to 1-3 word responses.

On the one hand, it bugs me that I am still soothing her. On the other, it's sad that she has such amxieties about how people view the kids (herself).

D3 has been especially clingy to me lately. Not to be mean, but like a leech, albeit a very cute one. She always wants me to hold her. It interfers with the day to day actions. I kind of wonder,but then I have no baseline to which to compare, a healthy parent kid r/s. She seems starved for affection. She's always saying how she misses Mommy, too.

[livednlearned]

Isn't it normal to want the kids to look nice around the holidays? I'm guessing. Like you, I didn't have the normal healthy childhood with an abundance of validation. 

It's a daily struggle for me to get S14 to care about hygiene. He's at that awkward stage where his body odor is wow. Plus scraggly facial hair, hair always messy, doesn't care about clothing, doesn't care about brushing his teeth. Is it narcissistic to care that he presents well to others? His T and school guidance counselor mentioned hygiene to me -- I think there is a healthy level of care for how our kids look and present themselves. I do notice S14 feeling more confident when his clothes represent him the way he wants, and his face is clear of acne.

So there is a normal range here?

I do think we all should get a free pass at the holidays when it comes to irritability, frustration. This is a hard time of year when your family unit is broken. I find my patience wears thin this time of year without fail.

Maybe D3 is feeling the whirl of holiday frenzy when people are less mindful and checked in?

[Turkish]

She's always been like that. I remember the first time she got angry at me, for "chewing too loudly" she told me later. A friend of hers I hardly knew turned to me and said, "What's wrong with her?" Social anxiety.

You're right though. I don't know what's normal. I've heard on multiple occasions, "I don't want people to think our kids are slobs," or "I don't want people too think we are bad parents." I.guess my skin is a lot thicker.

My patience is definitely wearing thin this week. Since now I'm taking care of ":)"73, but that's a story for another board... .

[livednlearned]

She's always been like that. I remember the first time she got angry at me, for "chewing too loudly" she told me later. A friend of hers I hardly knew turned to me and said, "What's wrong with her?" Social anxiety.

My son has this thing called misophonia -- he gets fight or flight response to certain sounds. Not just cringing, like when people do nails on chalkboard. It's more intense than that. We were out to dinner and he was sitting next to two chewers   and S14 had to plug his ears. His T said it's probably part of a very sensitive nervous system, along with the other "highly sensitive child" traits, and other sensory processing issues. I have to validate, and then enforce boundaries (he has to go out and be with people, even if they chew).

You're right though. I don't know what's normal. I've heard on multiple occasions, "I don't want people to think our kids are slobs," or "I don't want people too think we are bad parents." I.guess my skin is a lot thicker.

Me too. My codependent mom and narcissistic dad ran a covert narcissistic household, and appearances mattered. I rebelled hard the other way and became an outdoorsy person, then swung back when I realized there was nothing really to rebel against. We're somewhere in the middle now, me and S14, although Americans celebrate things a lot more than Canadians, it seems. Schools here are always having ceremonies. We're too broke to keep up with a growing teen and constant nice clothes so that's how I'm defining normal these days   If we can't afford it, then people are just going to have to talk.

Is the more pressing issue the fatigue validating your ex, being the guy who rolls with everything all the time, the adult in the room?

[scraps66]

I get these sorts of texts all the time.  Sometimes more frequent at times.  I noticed last week that if ex finds out I am doing something for one of the kids, S11 has a cold sore that he plays with too much, I'm giving him ointment.  She turns the kids back to me and parrots, "Please give S11 some aquaphor on his lip."  On the surface it seems like appropriate if this were a healthy relationship, but continually sending me these notes about what to do with the kids when on my time.  It's just more attempts to make me "feel" small in their lives.  At the same time she has been building up her bf as "dad."  Ignoring and not acknowledging are things I need to get better at.

[Ulysses]

Is the more pressing issue the fatigue validating your ex, being the guy who rolls with everything all the time, the adult in the room?

I am interested in this question.  I have often wondered, Turkish, how it feels for you to be able to continue to validate your ex and keep a good relationship.  I tried with my ex and I wish I could.  I keep trying but I feel like giving up.

One of the first times I tried SET was in MC when still married.  I noticed the MC's eyebrows shoot up, and he seemed surprised that I used that.  It worked wonderfully.  I continued to use it.  I felt this past year that it was getting more difficult and I couldn't see the point.  Also, I felt there comes a point when I can't validate anymore (e.g. exH and then-gf drawing ball-point ink tattoos on D6's lower stomach/waist, next to her hipbones after I asked gf to not draw in ball-point ink on D6's hands, arms, legs, and feet, and exH became enraged, and within a week the hip tattoos showed up). 

Some questions I have been asking myself are, for those of us tiring of validating and being kind and bending over backward, how do we continue if it's the best for the children?  What is the best for the children?  What is best for us?  For those of us who have stopped validating and using SET due to fatigue and a sense of hopelessness, did we pay a price in the reaction from our ex?  Did our children?  Are we giving ourselves too much credit thinking we can improve a relationship if the other party doesn't want to?  Do we resume using SET and validation at a certain point?  Will it do any good after not using it?

[Turkish]

It may be something like fatigue, but I've accepted that she is who she is. In a way she still sees me as a white night, and sometimes I wonder if I hadn't rolled with everything during the detachment (not legally: I served the custody papers), if I would feel more validated if she ouright hated me. Seems wrong, given most of the stories here.

Notice that I didn't use SET when responding to her, "It's understandable to want the kids to look sharp at a Christmas party... .blah blah blah."

I have an "acceptable" outfit picked out for D3 (though my girl argues with me about what matches, "white and black match everything," "noo, it doesn't match!". I found myself anxious while going through the closet trying to picture what S5 could wear which would be acceptable to his mom. Should I put him in his Sunday best? A dress shirt and vest? It won't match his warm jackets, and he likes to keep his jackets on. Maybe a school uniform polo? She'll want pictures, and I've let lapse the boundary of not sharing pics (her object constancy).

I think I just won't send her pics of that day. If she asks, I'll tell her why. Everyone else there will be enjoying themselves, and so should I.

[livednlearned]

Everyone else there will be enjoying themselves, and so should I.

There is a book called Conscious Parenting, or something like that. The one part I remember is about parent-child clash of wills, especially with a headstrong or defiant child. Your post reminded me of the passage where the author describes a mother-child in a massive meltdown because the daughter wanted to wear her purple tutu with sneakers to a family event. It was meant to demonstrate how we see our kids as reflections of ourselves, and that our parenting can be driven by a need to protect our own ego, instead of recognizing the separateness of theirs.

It could be that our kids, having a BPD parent, need us to validate their individual personal choices even more so.

My son really does not care how he looks. The teen years present some new challenges because the peer dynamics can be brutal with long-lasting consequences. For you, Turkish, your kids are so young. They're at an age where peers are not going to cannibalize them for making individual choices.

Ulysses, could some of the fatigue you feel come from the efforts to co-parent? Many members here choose to parallel parent, often as a way to minimize conflict, with the added bonus of restoring some much-needed peace of mind. There are challenges to this -- we surrender control of what happens in the other home, for example. It's not for everyone, and for some, it's the only way.

When I used validation or SET with my ex, it was not necessarily to control what he did or did not do, it was to establish a way of interacting that improved the odds that conflict could be minimized, and to model healthy adult relationship skills to my son, who until then had only our prior dysfunctional dynamic to guide him. It did take effort initially, it also felt like I began to feel empathy that had previously been hard to access. Carrying around tension about my ex really took a toll on me, and I am relieved to replace it with empathy. It took me 4,5 years to get there, and I do still feel exhausted at times and angry.

It is also very tiring to go through these experiences, in great need of validation ourselves, when there is no one there providing it. One of the best lessons out of this whole experience is recognizing the only person who needs to give me permission to take care of myself is me. Can't believe how hard it has been to actually follow through on that, and the guilt I feel when I put myself ahead of my son, for example. It's healthy, though.

Like Turkish said, everyone there will be enjoying themselves, and so should he.  

[Ulysses]

Turkish, that sounds difficult to be wondering if your ex will find your choice for clothing ok.

I found myself anxious while going through the closet trying to picture what S5 could wear which would be acceptable to his mom.

Clothing is a difficult area.  My D7 wore a nice dress and converse high-tops to a holiday thing this year.  It wouldn't have been my first choice, and I don't think it was her first choice.  Her nice shoes I bought her were at her dad's.  She seemed happy with her choice, though, so I let her run with it.  It was a cute look for her, actually. What happens if you send your ex a photo and she complains to you?  Do you shrug off the complaint?  Or is it just one more thing that is too much to deal with right now?  Or it gets her going and creates more problems than it's worth?

LnL, I don't know if that's where the fatigue is coming from.  I feel that even when I use SET it doesn't make a difference in his responses to me.  It was too much of an effort and no benefit, but perhaps I'll try again. I can use the tools in person with him, and feel good about modeling appropriate behavior in front of our children.  He prefers to communicate by email, which is fine, but he does seem to use the emails to take a dig at me, chastise me, or choose to not respond.  I have received quite a few this fall like that, and also have been dealing with a lot of things with my son, and with work and school, so I imagine a combination of things is getting me down.  I am wondering why his mean comments bother me so much.  I shouldn't care at all.  I feel like I was doing better not caring, and now I've taken a step backwards.  Is that emotional enmeshment - when I feel horrible about myself after exH makes it clear he thinks I'm this or that? 

When I used validation or SET with my ex, it was not necessarily to control what he did or did not do, it was to establish a way of interacting that improved the odds that conflict could be minimized, and to model healthy adult relationship skills to my son, who until then had only our prior dysfunctional dynamic to guide him.

I appreciate this.  Your post in general gives me a lot to think about, and has helped me see things differently as I thought through things today.  I don't see the purpose of using SET or any other tools to try to control what goes on at his house.  I wonder if the example of drawing on my D6 gave that impression.  This was over a year ago, and I do see both sides about how I handled it.  In fact your post helped me really consider an alternate point of view.  My instinct told me to speak up because, well, I would ask any adult to please not draw on my daughter in ballpoint ink.  But I do see how it comes off as trying to control what goes on in exH house (in all fairness, she was introduced as a "friend," not a gf, who had helped him out with a flat tire that day, which I now realize was a lie).  Now that my children are a little older and have been in therapy for a little over a year, I could see not speaking up in that situation, and instead having conversations with D (which I also did back then), and her T, about boundaries and health, rather than ask gf to please not draw in ballpoint pen on her.  I don't know, though.  It's difficult to not speak up when you feel your child's health or safety might be affected. 

Parallel parenting is probably the only thing that will work, which is unfortunate for our children. 

I'm glad you found empathy for your ex.  Maybe some day I'll get there.  I don't feel obligated to feel empathy for him.  I do understand you're saying it might help me.  Mostly I just feel a complete lack of respect for him, when I think about his actions.  Sometimes I do think about how messed up he must feel and how little he respects and loves himself (again, based on his actions, past and present).  I'm mad at myself for ever marrying him and for thinking he was a nice man.  He has the potential for absolute cruelty.  I think I need to continue working on helping myself not feel so bad about myself when he chastises me, etc., in his emails.  Do you think it became easier for you to find empathy as your ex spun out of control and eventually you gained custody of your child?  Then, I assume, you didn't need to work with him as closely on raising your son?  And, people around you could see the truth?  Or, was it something else that helped you come to that point?  Validation is absolutely missing for me right now.  I'm not sure it's validation to take care of myself, but maybe.  I feel it's more like validation of my past experiences with him, and also with the way he acts now.  I see how he's building himself up to be a great father, have a perfect life, wonderful marriage, etc., and it's so frustrating to know the truth about what he is capable of, and what he has done, and not have others aware of it.  I think I wouldn't care as much if he didn't simultaneously degrade me and violate aspects of the parenting plan, etc.   

[unicorn2014]

I appreciate reading these posts. I'm having tremendous difficulties with my ex, I got really mad at him over the phone the other day because he was trying to push his own agenda and my neighbor yelled at me for getting mad. There is no co-parenting in my situation. Thank you to everyone for posting.

[livednlearned]

That's a good question about whether empathy is easier when the BPD parent is out of the picture. It was certainly more aggravating when there was interaction on a daily/weekly basis.

Empathy may also be more challenging when there is a replacement GF/BF like you and Turkish experienced.

I did have a moment that surprised me in court. It was at the height of our battles when I resented N/BPDx the most -- he was having a psychotic episode and not making sense, although just enough that if you didn't understand mental illness, he seemed at the very least underprepared or confused. I had constructed these mile-high boundaries and we were in a safe setting, and for the first time I felt real empathy for him. This talented, intelligent terribly broken sick man, desperately trying to hold on to his son. That is the first time I made the connection between having empathy, and having boundaries. Empathy can feel very vulnerable, like losing control, something I never found comfortable. To feel empathy and have strong boundaries at the same time was a watershed moment.

I also don't have deep empathy all the time, it waxes and wanes. This time of year, I give myself a free pass and recognize it's going to be harder. When my empathy is on low, it means time to redirect it toward me.

You are both parenting under extremely difficult circumstances -- it starts to feel like normal, but it's not. Bill Eddy says people with BPD are not just difficult people, they are the most difficult.

One last thing -- I'm not sure if these things were connected or not. When I started to feel more empathy for myself, the insults from N/BPDx stopped hitting the target. Even ones that were true. I do not come from a very empathetic family, and that probably made me seek out validation from others since producing it on my own was a completely foreign concept. In fact, if anything, as kids we were trained to seek validation from others.

So if we seek validation from others, that means our self-worth is susceptible to what others do or say about us. Both positive and negative.

This is tough stuff to work on