Do I discuss exH past sexual acting out with S12 per S's therapist?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My question in bold below.  Here is some background and perhaps general venting.

S12 lies to me.  He and I have been going to a T that I don't think understands what S12 deals with from his father (NPD/BPD).  T doesn't seem to be helping.  I do not know what to do anymore, so I guess I just ignore and end therapy?  His T says if I continue to try to enforce my values (ie completing homework and not lying), I will lose my relationship with S12. 

This past summer S12 posted online that he thinks he's bisexual.  When I saw it I told him that posting that online is not the way to address this.  I had him take it down.  I told him we would talk about it and the most important thing for me to tell him is that I love him.  His school administration is very supportive of diversity.  I am not a parent who would reject a child because they are bisexual, homosexual, etc.

I haven't yet talked to S12 more about this.  This month my exBPD/NPDh emailed me that he wants to change the parenting plan to have S12 and D7 every year for annual gay pride activities.  I told him I'd respond after the holidays.  The only reason, when I asked, is because it's fun.  Co-parenting with exH is nonexistent.  If he responds, he chastises me in some way or another.  I dread trying to communicate with him about things.  I wish we could discuss this for the benefit of our child.  If wishes were horses... .

I am concerned, given exH past sexual acting out (you can read about some of it in my first couple of posts, and if you really need more detail you can ask), coupled with his narcissism, and projective identification/distortion he engages in, that he is not the healthiest person for my S12 to be talking to about his sexual feelings.  My exH used to physically shudder if something came up about a gay person that I knew, and say, "Ewww."  I don't share those sentiments and never did.  I also, apparently, asked more than once in MC if exH was gay, because of what he was saying.  The MC pointed it out to us and said this is very important and wanted to explore it with exH.  ExH grew up in a community that was not accepting of diversity.  Also, starting when S12 was about 5 or 6, exH would say "jokingly" how jealous he was of S because he was better looking than exH, and had more girlfriends by the time he was 6 than exH ever did.  I know it was a joke, but, often, exH uses jokes and sarcasm to communicate what he really feels or thinks.  I always wondered about it, and why exH would make it sound like he was in competition with S12.  Exh told me after the affair I discovered, that everybody thinks about sex "all the time."  That was news to me, and he told me there was something wrong with me sexually if I didn't think about sex all the time.  I sound like I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, I know.

My question:  S12 T wants me to bring this up with S12.  Specifically, my concerns that exH's problematic sexual past, his acting out, and his lack of addressing it in therapy lead me to have concerns for S12's seeking guidance from his father regarding healthy sexual development.  I am concerned if I should bring this up at all, and if so, how.  Any suggestions are appreciated.  We meet with T in a day, but I will probably wait until after Christmas.  I will see my own T prior and can ask for direction. I don't see how I can bring this up without sounding like I am badmouthing his father and sounding like I am criticizing or rejecting S12, or sounding like a nutcase that S12 will reject further.  In general the PA is very strong right now, and I am having a difficult time with having lost my connection to my S12 (and I also know some of it could be S12 age).  I am also working on accepting the idea that I will not be able to instill values like honesty and integrity into my S.  I do not have faith in S12's T, but I also realize that could just be my perspective.

[Ulysses]

My question in bold below.  Here is some background and perhaps general venting.

S12 lies to me.  He and I have been going to a T that I don't think understands what S12 deals with from his father (NPD/BPD).  T doesn't seem to be helping.  I do not know what to do anymore, so I guess I just ignore and end therapy?  His T says if I continue to try to enforce my values (ie completing homework and not lying), I will lose my relationship with S12. 

This past summer S12 posted online that he thinks he's bisexual.  When I saw it I told him that posting that online is not the way to address this.  I had him take it down.  I told him we would talk about it and the most important thing for me to tell him is that I love him.  His school administration is very supportive of diversity.  I am not a parent who would reject a child because they are bisexual, homosexual, etc.

I haven't yet talked to S12 more about this.  This month my exBPD/NPDh emailed me that he wants to change the parenting plan to have S12 and D7 every year for annual gay pride activities.  I told him I'd respond after the holidays.  The only reason, when I asked, is because it's fun.  Co-parenting with exH is nonexistent.  If he responds, he chastises me in some way or another.  I dread trying to communicate with him about things.  I wish we could discuss this for the benefit of our child.  If wishes were horses... .

I am concerned, given exH past sexual acting out (you can read about some of it in my first couple of posts, and if you really need more detail you can ask), coupled with his narcissism, and projective identification/distortion he engages in, that he is not the healthiest person for my S12 to be talking to about his sexual feelings.  My exH used to physically shudder if something came up about a gay person that I knew, and say, "Ewww."  I don't share those sentiments and never did.  I also, apparently, asked more than once in MC if exH was gay, because of what he was saying.  The MC pointed it out to us and said this is very important and wanted to explore it with exH.  ExH grew up in a community that was not accepting of diversity.  Also, starting when S12 was about 5 or 6, exH would say "jokingly" how jealous he was of S because he was better looking than exH, and had more girlfriends by the time he was 6 than exH ever did.  I know it was a joke, but, often, exH uses jokes and sarcasm to communicate what he really feels or thinks.  I always wondered about it, and why exH would make it sound like he was in competition with S12.  Exh told me after the affair I discovered, that everybody thinks about sex "all the time."  That was news to me, and he told me there was something wrong with me sexually if I didn't think about sex all the time.  I sound like I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, I know.

My question:  S12 T wants me to bring this up with S12.  Specifically, my concerns that exH's problematic sexual past, his acting out, and his lack of addressing it in therapy lead me to have concerns for S12's seeking guidance from his father regarding healthy sexual development.  I am concerned if I should bring this up at all, and if so, how.  Any suggestions are appreciated.  We meet with T in a day, but I will probably wait until after Christmas.  I will see my own T prior and can ask for direction. I don't see how I can bring this up without sounding like I am badmouthing his father and sounding like I am criticizing or rejecting S12, or sounding like a nutcase that S12 will reject further.  In general the PA is very strong right now, and I am having a difficult time with having lost my connection to my S12 (and I also know some of it could be S12 age).  I am also working on accepting the idea that I will not be able to instill values like honesty and integrity into my S.  I do not have faith in S12's T, but I also realize that could just be my perspective.

[scraps66]

These discussions are so tough under the circumstances.  As I've mentioned Ulysses, you and I have similar circumstances in terms of our positon in our child's life. 

I'm guessing S12's T may not be aware of PA or may not be considering the sensitivity under the circumstances.  If you are the targeted parent, taking up such sensitive topics for discussion, directly with S12, can have adverse effects and further push the child away.  That is how I feel using my case as the comparative benchmark. 

If I put my objective concerns of the T to one side, I don't think, especially considering PA existing, I would take up a discussion regarding exH's sexual past with a 12 year old.  Even if the bond between yourself and S12 was more robust, I don't think this would be something I would take up with a  12 yr old.  What exactly does the T think will come of this that improves the situation?  What COULD be done is to talk in generalities about what is expected and acceptable behavior regarding sexual choices.  I would not advocate discussing this topic as it specifically relates to exH, that just doesn't seem good.  I still question the suggestion to discuss such sensitive topics with a 12 yr old. 

If I read through the tea leaves and put on my BP-perceived or enstilled paranoia hat on, could exH be using sexuality as a means for alienation?  Meaning, is exH casually suggesting that S12 in some way shape or form follow, or emulate, exH's behavior however poor and unacceptable?  This would be my concern.

My ex "uses" religion as her own crutch and as something she can portray to our S8 and S11 as something that puts her on a different, more lofty level, compared to me the Protestant heathen.  The flip side is, the real side to the story, ex has had two failed marriages, used conception as a means of entrapment, is an abuser, etc. etc.  It can also be hereditary, my ex's mother is now on bad marriage number 3!  But she is also a "Christian."  As a friend of mine tells me, "those two will one day be struck by lightening entering church."     

[Panda39]

Hi Ulysses,

I think you are right to talk with your therapist first.  It sounds like your gut is telling you this isn't a good idea so getting more advice is probably good.  What do you think are the pros and cons?

You can always push this conversation out to a later date too when your son is older more mature.  There is no law that says this has to happen now.

My other question is if the Therapist wants to have this conversation why are they not starting the conversation?  Why do they want you to start it? Or are they just checking with you to see if you are okay having this conversation?

Panda39

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi Ulysses,

Your situation sounds complicated by many dynamics going on.  I want to comment regarding what my experience was, however, my experience was not complicated by PAS... .so I realize you have much more to consider.  (Yet maybe something could be helpful)

So my son's dad has some pretty messed up thoughts on sexuality.  He was raised by a step dad that is a pedephile.  :)ad has created a macho womanizing personality that constantly objectifys women.  

When my son was about your sons age, dad would brag to me about trying to get son interested in girls sexually and trying to hook him up with neighbors.  I was concerned.  I felt my son was old enough to process info regarding psychology and how we aquire behaviors and habits from our parents.  I told my son outright that he should understand dad's development... .having been raised by a pedephile, he has some inappropriate dysfunctional ideas about connecting with women.  I explained it from a viewpoint that dad was exposed to some horrendous things and it is only expected that he have confusing behavior compared to other men.  I gave some examples on how dad approaches women, his ideas and how they connect to being raised by a pedophile.

I think explaining dad's behavior from a compassionate perspective of dad was helpful in him trusting what I was sharing.

I remember that before I had this conversation... .I was worried that I was making a mistake in over disclosing.  I worried that over disclosing would be harmful in some way.  Looking back... .I am so grateful I had this talk.  My son was able to realize that in some areas... .dad just doesn't know any better.  He started questioning and looking for things on his own.  I believe he has developed a mental filter for dads behavior and can more easily see that dad has flaws and uses his own judgement more... .vs allowing himself to get caught up in a moment that dad creates.

Like I said... . i know you have many more things to consider.  Just wanted to share my experience for what it's worth.

Edit: also noteworthy... .  My son's dad does not have a PD.  My son likely never revealed this discussion to dad.  I had no worry about anything backfiring really... .just simple worries about such a heavy topic for his age.

[Ulysses]

Thanks for the responses.  I talked with my T today and I do not feel ready to begin discussing exH past behavior with S12.  I am going to try and focus on reestablishing or rebuilding our relationship, and open the door of discussion with S12, and continue to engage S12 in conversations and activities and listen to him.  I am so crunched for time and energy with full-time school and three part-time jobs, that I notice I feel extremely guilty for not being there for him like I was when I was a sahm.  I just do not have the energy to do things with my S12 sometimes.

Thank you Sunfl0wer for that information.  I hope that my S12 will someday realize that his father is not necessarily the best person to speak to about certain things.  I don't think I can tell him that right now or convince him, but it is good to know your experience for when I do talk with him.  I really worry about the harm that will befall S12 until he realizes how damaging his father can be in certain ways.  I am working on not worrying, or at least not letting it eat away at me.  I will take your information to heart and hope that there will come a time when I can support S to look in many directions for healthy decisions.  I often wonder, will there come a day when my kids area grown and ask me, Mom, why did you let us live him?  More future guilt I'm creating for myself that does me no good.

Panda - yes my gut is telling me that I, at least, am not ready to discuss this with S12, and therefore I don't think it would be productive.  I don't think I can think clearly enough yet to approach it in a way that doesn't sound alienating or bitter and end up pushing S12 away.  I don't know why T won't discuss this with S12.  I would very much like T to get S12 to open up so he can at least figure out what S12 has been exposed to (his dad writes pornography, and while I don't have proof S12 has viewed it, I do have evidence that exH gave S(11 at the time) a copy of a book that had inappropriate material for an 11 year old (sex scene, phrases like "f--- you from behind.".  When S was 9, exH talked up his alias name that wrote pornography, and S took the name to school telling kids it was his dad.  His dad didn't tell him he was writing pornography, but anyone who looked up the information would clearly see what it was.  T doesn't seem to be interested in or able to open up conversations with S12 about material he has read, even though I have told T and sent him a copy last year.  S12 brought the phrases up to me and it was clear he didn't know what they meant.  I chatted with him but didn't say I knew his dad had given him books to read.  I question this therapist for not being able to build a closer relationship with S12.

Scraps, I agree that it is probably better to put off this conversation.  In part because my relationship with S12 is not very smooth right now, in part because I think he has a ton of pressure from his dad and perhaps from the divorce in general, and in part because I think 12 is really young to divulge these things.  And I'm probably putting pressure on him in ways I can't see.  Maybe it will never be appropriate to divulge these things to a son or daughter, even when they're an adult.  I have some time to think about this I guess.

I do not know what S12 T thinks.  I encouraged him to discuss S12 with our MC, who also treated S12 before MC.  ExH also gave approval.  MC is the one who kept encouraging me to listen to my gut re:  S12; who recommended a book on projective identification and personality disorders, which opened my eyes to so much; and some other books, for instance Alice Miller.  I had hoped that after talking to MC, S T would understand what stresses S12 seems to be under.  He might, and there might just be nothing anyone can do about it.  It is very difficult because D7 T seems to be able to work against the alienation that was occurring with D when she was 6, and help her have a good relationship with both parents.  Maybe it's an age difference.

I'd ask to borrow your BPD paranoia hat, but I think I have my own.  It could be that he is using this to alienate me, or at least, hoping I will react in a certain way.  I really don't care what sexual orientation my S has, and I would think exH would know that, since when we were married, I never expressed anything different. 

I think it is a very difficult time for me.  I don't feel close to my S12, and I always was (except for the year exH was having his affair, and then I couldn't figure out why my S was giving me such hateful looks.  Looking back on it, I wonder if he was picking up on things then, too.).  I am going to try and take a deep breath, and not avoid the conversation with S12, but also not push anything.

[ForeverDad]

If I can comment in general terms... .  Today a growing topic (due in part to same-sex marriages as well as movies and TV being inclusive and even encouraging of all sorts of sexual innuendos and behaviors) is bisexual and transgender, among others.  There have been a few school reports of boys dressing as girls and seeking, even demanding by way of lawsuits, to use the girls' facilities and locker rooms and, I presume, showers.

I won't go into the pros and cons of this, this site tries not to divert into social issues, but I've come to one conclusion, that these are just our KIDS.  They ought to be allowed and encouraged to BE kids.  Yes, as children get older they make friendships, that's normal.  They can even daydream and fantasize, that's normal too.  They can even experiment, generally despite our disapproval.  But at least we can maintain the standard we expect, that they should wait until they're adults and are then free to make their own decisions and choose their own path in life.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if a child is speculating whether he or she is gay, lesbian, transgender or whatever, we can encourage them to Let Go of such concerns (a variety of such impressions are normal as the youth is growing up) and focus on just growing up, enjoying one's youth and leaving such hugely impacting issues for later once they've reached adulthood.

In generations past the general policy was, if you're not ready for marriage or ready to have children, then wait for later when you'll be more physically, mentally and spiritually developed.

When I grew up I'd always heard that in pioneer days such as the 1800s boys got married at 16 and girls at 14.  I assumed that was true... .until I became the family genealogist and searched census records.  Everywhere I searched for my ancestors, every single page I scanned, I almost never saw a husband younger than about 20 or 21 and a wife younger than about 18.  Even with the censuses that recorded the length of a marriage, the older couples reported ages and marriage length that agreed with 20+ and 18+ ages.  The point I've learned is that historically marriage is reserved for adults.  A youth of 10, 12 or 14 should let go such speculations and worries - likely triggered by outside events, peer pressure, poor examples, etc - and just be a youth.

[Ulysses]

So I guess what I'm saying is that if a child is speculating whether he or she is gay, lesbian, transgender or whatever, we can encourage them to Let Go of such concerns (a variety of such impressions are normal as the youth is growing up) and focus on just growing up, enjoying one's youth and leaving such hugely impacting issues for later once they've reached adulthood.

Yes, I agree.  I have also contemplated encouraging him to just relax and come back to it when he's older, to focus right now on friends, school, and kid stuff.  I've wondered if trying to express this to my S12 would sound minimizing, or feel invalidating to him.  I have worked with my T on speaking to him about phases as children grow up, etc.  I think I will start a conversation with him after Christmas. 

[Sunfl0wer]

How about a less serious approach than a formal discussion such as... .

Gosh... .many folks I know don't figure stuff like that out until past 22 years old!  It's a good thing your young and don't have to worry about setting anything like that in stone! Enjoy it!  I sure know a lot of people at work who wish they took themselves less seriously when they were 12. 

Obviously... .use your own version/interpretation/words... .I'm just wondering if it can sound more flippant.  Sometimes I am heard louder with several dispersed seemingly flippant like comments vs one long thoughtful serious sit down talk.

[scraps66]

I'd ask to borrow your BPD paranoia hat, but I think I have my own.  It could be that he is using this to alienate me, or at least, hoping I will react in a certain way.  I really don't care what sexual orientation my S has, and I would think exH would know that, since when we were married, I never expressed anything different. 

What I have noticed is that my ex has an adept skill at "creating" situations where she can compare what I do to what she does in a way that make some look bad.  All of this with no regard at all to how it effects the children.  Haircuts, she rarely takes the kids for haircuts, I do.  I use a cheap place.  In every instance she has an issue with the haircut he gets.  The BIG deal is the sideburns - they're 8 and 11, she always has some comment to make.  Really, she just dislikes that I get them the haircuts.  So now, she takes them to the place I get my haircut, where she TOLD me to take them.  So, now she can compare what she does tow hat I do, casually, with the kids.  I have countless examples of this type of programming.  It's sociopathic.

So I don't doubt that this topic could be created to sue against you.  But here is where you can be the "stable" calming parent in the child's life. 

I've also learned through these trying time periods that my own physical and mental health, if not maintained with good diet, exercise and healthy living, causes my parenting and ability to stay the course, to suffer.  So take a breath every once in awhile for yourself and make sure you're not isolating yourself.