Reflections on how we got where we are today

[purekalm]

Interesting topic Kwamina.

I know it's hard to believe, but in the midst of all the turmoil, around 21 years old, ( 8 years ago) I finally accepted and dealt with a lot of things. At the time, we lived near a river and I would go there and cry, talk, scream, be silent, whatever I needed, and it was very healing.

That was when I realized that excuses suck, but reasons are important. There are VERY many reasons why my dad, and mom for that matter, are and were the way they are. It helped me because I literally hated them and wanted them to die. I wouldn't ever do or orchestrate it myself, I just hoped they would drop dead. I know that's horrible, but that's how I used to feel. I accepted that what I lost could never be given back, and what lay ahead just wasn't pretty. My dad has so altered his reality that he was a great parent and husband and honestly doesn't understand when anyone treats him remotely like he wasn't. It's difficult in the fact because there will be no resolution with him for those things. I've had to accept that it would never happen, and it was hard, because it's more difficult to get the closure you want that way, but thankfully not impossible. My brother is the only other one who feels this ways, both my sisters still blame them for everything and are very "two-faced" when interacting with them. They feel one way, but to not cause waves, act another.

Reasons why my dad has uBPD?  Wow, there's so many.  I wrote them all down, then erased them, it's not my story to tell. Defining moment though? I know that very clearly, it was when his closest brother died of kidney failure. He had a host of other issues to go along with it, but that's what eventually took him. His brother was his grounding, and even though he'd been crazy even knowing that, he flipped after that and has never been the same since. Because he had so many health issues my dad was always around him, taking him places, taking care of his physical needs and just enjoying being around him. He was the only one who could tell my dad like it was and he wouldn't flip on him. Once the ground was taken from under his feet is when he lost it for real and has never truly come back.

He's in such a sad state right now, with so many health issues it isn't even funny. Even though I know he did it mostly to himself, I can't help but see him just as he is, like we all are, broken, wanting to be whole and not knowing exactly how to do that. We find ways to manage, to make things better sure, but I think that inside we all know that we're not perfect. It's just hard to admit that, especially for people who haven't been through all that most of us here have. It wasn't easy, and he still ticks me off with his antics, but since I already let all of that go it doesn't carry the weight of all the previous baggage with the current situation like it used to. I let it all go at the river, to be honest. I yelled, screamed, cried or just simply talked. Everything I hated about him, about mom, myself, my life and the way things were. After I got through the majority of that, and let out some of the pain I had been holding for SO SO long, healing kind of flowed naturally and I was able to see them as people, not as an object of hate/disgust/disdain which I had previously done. Like I said, not what might be considered the clinical approach, but for me, it was when my heart wasn't so clouded to see the truth, they were broken too, and without the skills or ability I had found to heal.

For my mom, it was about the same time because her mom (although she was adopted and physically, emotionally, mentally abused her her whole life) died within two weeks of my uncle. My mom and us kids (my two sisters, brother and me) were the ones that took care of her as she was dying, literally no matter the weather we were there every night. Her dad, (also adopted, she was adopted as an infant) died of cancer 7 years before him. He was a rough old man, but he loved us. My mom was the one who got to see the worst him, but he also cared for her, just had to fight his wife to do it when he was there. He was gone a lot working. With my dad falling away from his own brother, he couldn't be there for my mom and vice versa, so that moment in time is when everything really fell to pieces for both of them. Her parents controlled her, and she went to my dad who controlled her every move.

From learning their stories, it didn't help me to forgive what they had done to me. All my life what had happened to them became excuses for what they did to me, and that made me hate them. There were reasons why they did what they did yes, but it doesn't excuse their behavior by any means. To explain what I mean, I have a ton of issues because of the prolonged abuse, and I haven't acted great, a lot. What caused me to do it may be a reason, but it isn't an excuse, a cop out. I'm still fully responsible for the consequences of my actions. That's what my dad has never gotten ahold of. Regardless of how bad your life was, my life was/is, it doesn't give you an excuse to continue to abuse.

I guess I was lucky to be able to observe, to think more. My parents were mainly doers, just get it done, work hard, life will treat you right kind of people. ... .Yeah, not exactly. Anyways, that's all I've got to say. I hope it makes sense.

[Kwamina]

Interesting topic Kwamina.

I think so too!

I know it's hard to believe, but in the midst of all the turmoil, around 21 years old, ( 8 years ago) I finally accepted and dealt with a lot of things. At the time, we lived near a river and I would go there and cry, talk, scream, be silent, whatever I needed, and it was very healing.

... .

I let it all go at the river, to be honest. I yelled, screamed, cried or just simply talked. Everything I hated about him, about mom, myself, my life and the way things were. After I got through the majority of that, and let out some of the pain I had been holding for SO SO long, healing kind of flowed naturally and I was able to see them as people, not as an object of hate/disgust/disdain which I had previously done. Like I said, not what might be considered the clinical approach, but for me, it was when my heart wasn't so clouded to see the truth, they were broken too, and without the skills or ability I had found to heal.

Thanks for joining the discussion and sharing your experiences. It sounds like your time at the river was very cathartic and transformative. To use the words of Marsha Linehan "Pain is pain. Suffering, agony, are pain plus non-acceptance. So if you take pain, add non-acceptance you end up with suffering.  Radical acceptance transforms suffering into ordinary pain."

You quite literally laid down your burden down by the riverside.

The point you make about excuses versus reasons is also very valid and important. Our parents have disordered minds, yet within the context of that disorder they are still responsible for their own actions. Making the analysis to determine the reasons or root causes of the dysfunction is very important for us to be able to end the cycle of conflict and dysfunction. Our parents may never change, yet by changing our own behavior and responses we can end the cycle of conflict and dysfunction by no longer contributing to the drama. That's why I also really like tools such as the Karpman Triangle and FOG because they help conceptualize the dynamics of conflict that can be passed down from generation to generation.

[GreenGlit]

How interesting the story of your mother and the tragic loss of her parents at such a young age. It seems to be a known thing that having a destabilizing or invalidating environment can be a catalyst for BPD.

My uBPD mother grew up in communist Cuba in the 50s and 60s. In that era the political environment was very unstable. My grandfather - her father - was actively involved in anti-Castro revolutionary efforts, and many of his comrades were captured and executed. It was a constant risk for my mother to lose her father. She knew this, and he always tried to prepare her for the worst ("If they get me, you need to be strong and keep fighting and get our family out of here," he would say). But I think it left her terrified on the daily. She lived through a civil war where her hometown was bombed... .she spent Christmas Day in 1959 under a mattress listening to fighter planes flying overhead. On top of that my grandmother is not a loving or affectionate person, and my mother, somewhat of a rebel, was seen as the black sheep by her mother, who I also suspect to have BPD. She eventually left to the US when she was 19 with her parents, penniless, speaking no English, and with nothing but a small duffel bag of a few belongings. In a word it was horrifically traumatic.

She did well for herself and went to medical school and worked as a doctor for 40 years. She was always obsessed with me and my sister having "things" - nice things, nice jewelry, the best clothes, a nice car. She always stressed that she didn't want us to lack for anything. But she went way overboard. It hurt me greatly socially because I always wore nice designer clothes and shoes, and drove an exotic car, and people made assumptions that I would be a snooty brat when in fact I felt odd and out of place in all the expensive gear I toted on the daily. Her parents were never able to provide for her economically, so she used money as a leash for us. She bought us gifts, and she expected us to do as she wished. If we didn't then we were labeled as unloving and inconsiderate. Just this past Christmas she bought me a new phone, and when I disagreed with her on something later that afternoon, she lost it and said, "and here I am, buying you all this nice stuff, and look at you - such an inconsiderate brat!" *sigh*

I know her upbringing is never an excuse for her behavior, but I can understand how she came to be the way she is because of her traumatic upbringing. It at least gives me something to think about when she's raging. Something to remind myself that she was once young and vulnerable, and was hurt and emotionally tortured in ways I won't ever understand. In a way, I think pitying my mother makes it easier to deal with her. I think of her as like a schizophrenic... .someone who perceives the world in such a twisted way, it's hardly reality anymore.

[Kwamina]

Hi GreenGlit

It seems to be a known thing that having a destabilizing or invalidating environment can be a catalyst for BPD.

This does seem to be the case yes. Such an environment isn't necessarily the cause of the BPD, but can definitely trigger or exacerbate the BPD (traits) present in someone.

My uBPD mother grew up in communist Cuba in the 50s and 60s. In that era the political environment was very unstable. My grandfather - her father - was actively involved in anti-Castro revolutionary efforts, and many of his comrades were captured and executed. It was a constant risk for my mother to lose her father. She knew this, and he always tried to prepare her for the worst ("If they get me, you need to be strong and keep fighting and get our family out of here," he would say). But I think it left her terrified on the daily. She lived through a civil war where her hometown was bombed... .she spent Christmas Day in 1959 under a mattress listening to fighter planes flying overhead. On top of that my grandmother is not a loving or affectionate person, and my mother, somewhat of a rebel, was seen as the black sheep by her mother, who I also suspect to have BPD. She eventually left to the US when she was 19 with her parents, penniless, speaking no English, and with nothing but a small duffel bag of a few belongings. In a word it was horrifically traumatic.

Thanks for sharing your mother's story. Her childhood does sound very stressful indeed. I can imagine how scary it must have been for her knowing she might lose her dad. Especially when she knows many of his comrades were captured and/or killed, which probably only reinforced her fears. This whole ordeal can be very traumatic for a child. Also the move to the US without any money and not speaking the language, isn't easy at all. She was able to do remarkably well though in some areas, she went to medical school and was a doctor for a very long time.

She bought us gifts, and she expected us to do as she wished. If we didn't then we were labeled as unloving and inconsiderate.

This line stood out to me. Your mother's love seems very conditional and her buying you guys gifts seemed more about buying your allegiance or obedience. Another thing that comes to mind is that as you also point out yourself, her perception of reality is distorted. As a result she might actually feel very slighted when you don't do as she wants or express don't wanting her gifts. She might read that as rejection. It also seems that by giving you guys so much, she in a way is almost trying to erase her past or perhaps hopes that by doing these things she can make right what was broken back then. Her buying you gifts in a sense could then also be seen as her buying her younger self gifts, with her younger self being projected onto you. If that is the case, she probably ins't even (fully) aware that this is what she's actually doing here. Do you feel that this might (at least partly) explain why your mother behaves this way?

Take care

The Board Parrot

[sheishei]

Definitely a topic worth talking about.

I try to figure out when my mother´s BPD had a start, i tried searching to how a person develops BPD and for what i have observed in my mother and other people it seems to be caused by early childhood traumas and not having the ability to cope with it the way that a non BPD person would , rationally.

Here´s what i know about my mother´s story, but first let me tell you a little or what i know about my grandparents, my grandmother has the golden award of BPD´s( the queen), but she was i believe the oldest child of a very poor family, many siblings, when she was still a child she had to start working and helping out the family, i don´t know about any physical abuse to my grandmother, but apparently the fact that she was forced to grow up at a young age when she was a little girl, who as a grown up prefers to date a married man only for his social status, and for the places he will bring her to, and the gifts he will give her, even though she knows he will never leave his wife, this man is not my grandfather, it´s someone she met after they divorced. Often as a child i heard her complaining about not having anything as a child, material things, still as a smart woman she is she moved when she could and went to college, there she met my grandfather, married him , had three kids. So my grandfather, by what my grandmother says and what my mom agrees to her, he was a womanizer.

My mother describes herself as a very quiet child, so quiet she was almost stupid( this is how she says it ) apparently my mother was never validated by her parents, my grandfather is the type of guy that lives for the outside person, my mom remembers this occasion where she was playing with some naighbors and they were being mean to her and somehow they got on a fight and instead of correcting her the correct way, my grandfather corrected her by humiliating her in front of these other girls, i see how this can be devastating for ones selfstem, condemn without given the right to express what happened. My mom says that my grandmother often treated her badly and made her feel ugly and self aware of how she looked, my mom also hated , i mean hated her own name just because of the way my grandmother used to say it when calling her. these are things my mom told me when i was yound, from age 5 to 10, she doesn´t mention them anymore. When she turned 15 my grandmother divorced my grandfather and they were extremely poor, my mom though, had a talent for painting and she was attending the art school, many times made fun off for not keeping up with the standards of the other girls, my grandfather met another woman who had two daughters, about the same age, when my mom went to college, she was recluted in school , everyone was, but my mom had severe asthma, still my grandfather never went to visit her at school , but would ride a bike many miles away with his new wife along to see the stepdaughters, this are things i remember my mother yelling to my grandparents when i was little, still they never accepted their failure.

So i think to this point she had a chance of changing , she knew what hurt her, and why she was feeling this way. I remember my mom going on crazy anger moments, through things away that weren´t her , usually my grandmothers, or other things in our house, i at first blamed my grandparents, because i thought why don´t you tell her , nobody tells her how disctructive she´s acting , she can´t go on like this , you are her parents, you should tell her, but they did nothing. my grandmother would put my uncles against my mother telling them how abusive to her my mom was, and when she came over to our house, she would do the same, just that this time the abusers where my uncles. yes, my grandmother ended up splitting the three of them apart, and my grandfather ? well he was with his other wife. my mom never got over this, now my mom is in a better economic situation than my grandmother , so she tells my mom whatever she wants to hear because my mom gives her money. well the story is long , you guys know , this is an everyday battle. and yes when i think about all this i feel bad for her, but having to live through that pain didn´t stop her to hurt me and abuse me everytime she had an opportunity, sneakily she would actually do this things when no one was around and then make me act like everything was fine. so what i think is that she makes a new choice everyday and that´s just how i see it. and out there, there are lots of people ,actually everyone have suffered some sort of pain, disappointment in life, but one make a choice, to be different. i used to love my mom when i was little and suffered so much for seeing her in constant pain and agony, now the only thing i feel is pitty, i wish she would open her eyes and see how much she has missed already , how everything could be happier , but she´s never happy with anything, nothing you ever do for her is enough.

I´m happier since i´ve been in NC with her, she was sucking my soul.

[Linda Maria]

Hi Kwamina - what an amazing thread this is.  I was very moved and impressed by the insight you have into your mother's situation, and admire your ability to accept it for what it is.  Since realising that I think my sister has BPD, I have been able to make sense of a lot of her horrible behaviour, though sadly, every approach I tried, just being nice, ignoring it etc. in the early days (just after my mother passed away, nearly 3 years ago), nothing worked.  When I stopped responding, and distanced myself, she did eventually stop harassing me for the most part, but the horrible stories about me have continued to this day, to anyone who will listen.  Realising that she has BPD also allowed me to make sense of some isolated episodes that occurred when we were younger, and both lived at home.  I can see that her difficult behaviour definitely became worse after my father died 21 years ago - but a lot of the time she is high functioning, so I never thought it was anything more than attention seeking/victim playing/downright awkwardness and being very moody.  When I found the book "Walking On Eggshells" I realised the expression perfectly summed up how I behaved around her a lot of the time, even when she was ok.  I can understand that my Mum passing away - especially as my sister lived with her despite having her own house nearby - and also doesn't have a partner or children - had a massive impact on her, probably more so than me, as although I was very close to my Mum, and she was a big part of my life also, I do have a husband and kids.  So I can see now, that losing our parents would have felt like some huge abandonment, and it helps explain a bit.  But I tried for a long time to get through all the nastiness that started after Mum died - and she clearly wanted to carry it on, and so it didn't seem like she was interested in any olive branches - she was only interested in blackening my character and accusing me of all sorts of vile things (which I later worked out were things that she was doing!).  I am relieved that she is basically out of my life, but sad as well, because she is my only sibling and it is sad that it should be like this.  I honestly don't think there is any more I could say or do that could help.  My other big question mark, is that we are both adopted - both as very young babies, we are only 13 months apart in age, were treated exactly the same by our parents, who were very loving, and there was no trauma in our childhood or youth.  We were also told very young that we were adopted.  I can't remember not knowing I was adopted, and have always been very relaxed about it, although it wasn't something that we ever really discussed with our parents.  I have always sensed that my sister was not comfortable talking about it, certainly not to other people, but always thought that was fair enough as it is a very private thing.  For a long time when I first found out about BPD I thought maybe it was not what she had, because so many articles talked about the BPD sufferer having a background of abuse, trauma etc. and turning to risky behaviours such as promiscuity, drug taking etc.  None of this applies to my sister.  Her behaviour, lying, rages etc. totally mirror the stories I read here - to a spooky extent, so I do think it is BPD, but I still struggle with working out why she has it - it must be mainly genetic, and there was nothing in our early environment to trigger it - and she basically never really left home.  She has her own house, but lived with my parents till a year or so after my father died.  She moved into her own house with her boyfriend for about 2 years, when that fell apart, she lived at my Mum's off and on, and later moved back in with her (she didn't need to - my Mum was in reasonable health and very independent) - though she always moaned about my Mum, and made out she had no choice but to live there.  I don't doubt though that she loved my Mum dearly in her way, though I can see now, thinking back on things my Mum said, that my sister made life quite difficult in the house a lot of the time, taking over, bossing my Mum about etc.  I also think that other than the odd irrational thing, that I wasn't a target for a long time because I didn't live with her - I was an hour away with my own life - I haven't lived with her for nearly 30 years - so she just wasn't really in a position to target me with her anger - I wasn't present- although we talked very regularly on the phone, and I did see her fairly regularly.  Anyway - don't know where I'm going with this - just trying to make sense of it all.  I guess I haven't quite achieved radical acceptance yet! Seems sad - I've helped a lot of people in my life, and I'm a good friend to people, and yet I can't help my own sister - my only option for a peaceful life is to be no contact, and it will never feel completely ok.  Thanks for listening.   

[Kwamina]

Hi sheishei

Thanks for sharing the story of your mother and grandparents. Based on your post I can definitely see certain things your grandparents did that would affect your mother. That however, indeed does not excuse her abuse of you. Sometimes it unfortunately is necessary to distance ourselves from our own family-members, this to protect ourselves. You are currently in that situation. No matter how you go forward with your mother, I am glad you are feeling happier now and this period of NC is something you can use to heal and strengthen yourself.

these are things my mom told me when i was yound, from age 5 to 10, she doesn´t mention them anymore.

You were still very young when she told you all these things your grandparents did to her. How did it make you feel as a child hearing these stories? How was your own relationship with your grandparents?

It is sad that your grandmother splitted her own children and pitted them against each other. From your post it becomes clear that your mother did seem to realize that the way her parents treated her was not right. Do you feel like your uncles ever came to a point of realizing that what your grandmother did was wrong?

[Kwamina]

Hi Linda Maria,

Nice to hear from you again

I am relieved that she is basically out of my life, but sad as well, because she is my only sibling and it is sad that it should be like this.  I honestly don't think there is any more I could say or do that could help.

I can understand why you are relieved, nobody wants to be abused. At the same time it also is very sad that the only way to deal with her seems to be complete NC. I actually have a brother who I'm NC with. I don't talk about him must, usually only talk about my uBPD mom and sis when I'm online here. I never considered my brother to be PD, still don't but in some ways he's way worse than my mom and sis. That's also why I'm NC with him. The thing with him is that his hatred, rage and contempt are constant. I don't see any dysregulation in him as I see in my mother and sister, he is always this way and has massive narcissistic traits and a huge sense of entitlement. With him it's never that he's out of control, he always knows exactly what he's doing. The scary thing is that he's in control, his contempt is real and stable, no splitting with him, just total and stable contempt for his own family. In certain ways he was also spoiled by my mother who did not correct his disrespectful and aggressive behavior at all. He also never did anything in the house growing up, no chores at all, he never offered to do anything either and my mother never asked him to do any chores.

Anyway - don't know where I'm going with this - just trying to make sense of it all.  I guess I haven't quite achieved radical acceptance yet! Seems sad - I've helped a lot of people in my life, and I'm a good friend to people, and yet I can't help my own sister - my only option for a peaceful life is to be no contact, and it will never feel completely ok.  Thanks for listening.  

Yes that's what we are all trying to do, trying to make sense of this difficult BPD reality and doing the best we can to cope. It is sad that your sister behaves the way she does. Radical acceptance is hard and requires continual work, and even then I think many of us will deep down inside always still long for the loving 'fantasy' family-member we never had. It is what it is and there is of course always hope, yet knowing what we know about our disordered family-members, it is important that any hope we have is based in the (harsh) reality of what we know about BPD. It is what it is, and it is sad indeed. Radical acceptance can't take away all the sadness, but can make it a bit more bearable.