Is this poor executive control? [Part 2]

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I guess let him go, he's saying he won't call me tomorrow so I have to accept this. I have to be willing to lose the relationship so I don't lose myself. Is this correct?

He is now accusing me of taking the relationship hostage.

I told him I look forward to hearing from him after he met with the lawyer.

I hope that is enough.

---

Now he's accusing me of holding the relationship hostage and says he won't contact me until I release it. That is the most irrational statement yet. How do I respond to that?

----

I don't know how to work with him.

He's doing that behavior of raising the bar.

I agreed to his term, contact me when he's met with the lawyer, now he's telling me he'll contact me after I release the relationship. He's being totally irrational and I don't know how to respond to it.

----

He wants me to resume normal contact. I will not. I don't know how to respond to him.

[unicorn2014]

I guess let him go, he's saying he won't call me tomorrow so I have to accept this. I have to be willing to lose the relationship so I don't lose myself. Is this correct?

He is now accusing me of taking the relationship hostage.

I told him I look forward to hearing from him after he met with the lawyer.

I hope that is enough.

---

Now he's accusing me of holding the relationship hostage and says he won't contact me until I release it. That is the most irrational statement yet. How do I respond to that?

----

I don't know how to work with him.

He's doing that behavior of raising the bar.

I agreed to his term, contact me when he's met with the lawyer, now he's telling me he'll contact me after I release the relationship. He's being totally irrational and I don't know how to respond to it.

----

He wants me to resume normal contact. I will not. I don't know how to respond to him.

[formflier]

  How can you best take the space you need?  Is there a better option that "just letting him go"?    

FF

[unicorn2014]

Form flier I do not know. He's telling me I'm holding the relationship hostage. I don't know how to respond to that. He wants me to resume normal contact. I don't want to. I don't know what to do here.

[Grey Kitty]

Maybe you are holding the relationship hostage.

Maybe it is the right thing for you to do.

Do you want to treat this as a 'normal' rtlationship when he is married to somebody else and is consistently failing to even take effective steps to change that?

I dunno. It is a very hard choice to make. Not one I would enjoy making.

[formflier]

 I don't want to. I don't know what to do here.

   So don't.  Simple as that.  What advice have you been given before about how to go about taking space?  Note:  I'm not aware of any way to go about this or any advice that has been given where you or he will feel good about it right now.    I'm with GK that this is not a choice I would enjoy or want to make.  Unfortunately in life many of the turning point choices are not pleasant or easy.    

FF  

[unicorn2014]

Form flier you said you take the space you need whether or not the pwBPD likes it or not.

So, after I gave in and said fine you can contact me in two weeks then he said if he calls me after he calls the lawyer in the morning can we go back to normal contact and I said yes.

So this is a precedent, two nights in a row of no facetime by my choice.

I told him if he had looked at his text message before the end of the business day and saw that I had chosen a lawyer for him and called, then we would not be in this position tonight. I said he has one more day to get this right or then I would have to make different choices.

If he calls the divorce lawyer tomorrow then he will have met my condition to move forward into the new year.

I need to start thinking about what this again was talking about, do I want to pull teeth every step of the way with him. No. So moving forward into the new year, and on my next thread, I will need to start thinking about boundaries I will set up along the way of his divorce.

[formflier]

   So, after I gave in and said fine you can contact me in two weeks then he said if he calls me after he calls the lawyer in the morning can we go back to normal contact and I said yes.  

   Sigh, So, you had contact with him after you said you would have contact with him in two weeks (before the two weeks are up).  This is exactly the kind of glaring example of you "taking space" and him "taking it back from you".    Example: "I need to take space to sort out issues on my side.  I wish you well in the new year and will be available to discuss things in two weeks."  There are various ways to do it.  But the critical element is that when you let him know you are offline for two weeks, you are offline for two weeks.  What you have done tonight was brinkmanship and threatening behavior and I believe continued a cycle of hurt and pain in your r/s.    

FF

[unicorn2014]

Form flier  he told me would contact me in two weeks and I said fine. That was not my time frame . Then when I agreed to his terms he said he would call me in the morning.

He is the one who has been engaging in brinkmanship with me this week not vice versa. That's his behavior, not mine.

[GaGrl]

So you are allowing him to set the terms, and you acquiesce?

Time for reflection?

[formflier]

  Time for reflection?

    And more importantly to look at the reflection in the mirror rather than looking at him and his behaviors.    

FF

[unicorn2014]

I hear what both of you are saying.

I allowed him to have a relationship with me for 3.2 years while he was married thinking he had filed for divorce like he said he would. 3 months ago I found out he hadn't filed.

So I was allowing him to have a relationship with me based on believing what he said was true. I didn't think to ask him for proof of his filing until 6 months ago.



Apparently I'm suffering from poor executive control myself.

   

[formflier]

  Apparently I'm suffering from poor executive control myself.         

   Unicorn, I understand you are hurting.  You have valid reasons to feel hurt.  My hope for your New Years resolution is that you will figure out how to take space for self care and care of your relationship.  All the rest of the stuff going on is a distraction from you taking time to heal.    

FF

[Skip]

So is this poor executive control on his part?

No.

He doesn't want to get divorced. Unequivocally. Steadfastly. Paint it on a billboard, no.  

There could be many reasons for this - he may have financial issues that he would have to reconcile that he can't, he may have IRS issues that he doesn't want entered into evidence, he may be waiting for an opening to reconcile, etc. He has not budged one inch on this since you've known him. Most importantly, in all this time, you don't have a clue why he is holding back. He hasn't told you. There is little intimacy* in your relationship - he afraid to confide in you (because you won't like what he believes) and you are afraid to let go (so you look for justifications, but they are getting hard to find.

It's unhealthy to keep trying and force this against his will. It is also not been productive.  Not to say I wouldn't have done the same - give him a chance to harmonize what he was saying with what he was doing - but you are well past that.

Play it out. Let's say he calls a divorce attorney. So where are you at the end of January - arguing over whether he is going to sign the letter of engagement and pay a retainer.  If getting him to talk to an attorney was hard, how will it be for him to write a check for $5,000 and sigh a contract?  But say you get past that by August 2016 - then what?  You start making a boundary that he has to actually file a divorce petition? How many months/years is reasonable for that?

My point is simply, he doesn't want to get a divorce for a reason. There is not even a scintilla of motivation or commitment here.  He can easily drag this on for a years - when the parties are not motivated - divorces can take a very log time.

Bottom line, he is going to do this on his own time.  And here is the hardest part. He should. It's his wife. His marriage vow. His in-laws. His family. However dysfunctional, they are bound by something much stronger than his bind to you.

I know this doesn't feel good - but I think I'm not telling you something that you don't already know. The path you are on is going nowhere. But you keep telling yourself it is - if you can only get him to show you that he filed, spend $250 to talk to a lawyer for 45 minutes, show you a business card, things will be blissfully back on track.

Getting on a different path is going to take a significant change in what you are bot doing.  It's going to take getting a commitment and professional help. This is not something either of you want to do. I suspect he doesn't want to be called on his stuff (a therapist won't be so patient, or buy these excuses).  I suspect the reality of the situation is not something you want to face either. You didn't want this to fail.

Rather than growing, your relationship has been devolving for months - in your eyes, his eyes, your pastors, your friends, your family - there are gaping holes of integrity, honestly, and caring (and its not all one sided at this point). Is it past the point of no return - past the point of recovering to a healthy relationship? Is it reasonable to think that this is ever going to resolve - or is this a kitty chasing a laser spot on a carpet.

Ultimately, that is for you to decide.  But I think we can help by telling you that it is not "poor executive control" or sunspots or the inability to find a lawyer.

It's about two people with irreconcilable priorities.



* Intimacy is about being emotionally close to your partner, about being able to let your guard down, and let him or her know how you really feel. Intimacy is also about being able to accept and share in your partner's feelings, about being there when he/she wants to let their defenses down.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you skip. Yesterday with the help of another member I drafted and sent a message to him this morning :

My dear partner,

I still want the plans we made and the connection we have.

I’ve allowed myself to become involved in your divorce process when it is your business and those are your decisions to make. I deeply care about the choices you make but it is not my job to make those choices for you. It isn’t my role to help you get divorced, pick a lawyer, or clear the way. I would love for you to file for divorce but I can’t be organizing it.

I’m not clear on how to proceed while waiting for you to file for divorce. I need to take some time to think things through. I would like to check back  with you on Monday morning after I had a chance to reflect on things calmly for a few days.

And sent it.

[unicorn2014]

Apparently I'm suffering from poor executive control myself.

   

Unicorn,

I understand you are hurting.  You have valid reasons to feel hurt.

My hope for your New Years resolution is that you will figure out how to take space for self care and care of your relationship.

All the rest of the stuff going on is a distraction from you taking time to heal.

FF

Thank you FF I was finally able to take some space for myself in a no confrontational way. I sent my message to my partner this morning with a follow up phone call to make sure he understood I was not breaking up with him or leaving him . He seems to have understood and agreed with the principles behind my decision.

---

Now I have to do the hard work of reflection. Thank you to everyone for helping me get to this point . In all the time I've been with my partner I've never been able to take time away from the relationship so this will be a first.

[thisagain]

OnceConfused recommended this process to me for deciding, and I think it could be helpful for you:

1. write down all the positives and negatives about this r.s.

2. Compare and prioritize them as to something negligible or a must have in a r.s

3. If the negatives seem to outweigh the positives and you cannot visualize living with her for the next 5, 10, 20 years with such negatives , then use this time to prepare a good bye. This way she can be free to pursue any other person she likes and you can do the same. Why stay together and to feel unhappy every day?

The divorce deception and him being married are obviously huge negatives, but try to think about others as well. If he could magically get a divorce tomorrow, what would be the positives and negatives, and could you live with the negatives? On the other hand, can you visualize continuing a relationship with him for the next two, 5 or 10 years if he does not file for divorce or if the divorce drags on for years?

I'd also recommend trying to list out as many options as you can think of for how to handle the relationship. The options should all be under your control (that is to say, "we stay together and he files for divorce" is not an option). They should also be low-conflict, so making deadlines for each step of his divorce process and threatening to go NC or break up if he doesn't proceed with each step is not an option.

Two options I can think of are:

A. End the relationship and tell him you'll consider getting back together if he sends you a copy of a divorce judgment. Accept that this will probably never happen.

B. Radically accept that he is not divorced and may never get divorced. Focus on minimizing your contribution to conflict, improving the boundaries between what's his business and what's your business, and controlling your emotional reactions to things that remind you of the divorce situation.

I will say that I think option B would be emotionally damaging for you and close to impossible to carry out successfully, but in theory it is an option.

Can you think of other options that are low-conflict and completely within your control?

[patientandclear]

I do think putting a pin in the relationship until/unless a divorce petition is filed is not an unreasonable stretch.  Actually filing a divorce petition is a definitive step.  Actually getting the divorce decree is NOT within his control, but filing is.  It does not take a long time to actually prepare and file a divorce petition.  It wouldn't mean pausing for months and months, IF unicorn's partner decides he's willing to do that.

[thisagain]

Getting the decree isn't 100% within his control, but there are many ways in which he could 100% prevent it from happening even after he files. The exact procedural nuts and bolts depend on the state, but... .What if he files, his ex-wife doesn't respond, and a month later it's his job to go file for a default judgment and he doesn't? What if he files, his ex-wife does respond, and he drags his feet in settlement negotiations for years? What if he causes so much trouble that after they try to settle for a year or two, it has to go to trial and the trial date is in 2019?

There is clearly something keeping him from just getting the divorce (my guess is that it's financial/property-related). Whatever it is, it's probably going to cause significant problems and delay even after he files. And I think Unicorn needs a plan for how to avoid more squabbling and resentment over every delay and every step of the process.

[Skip]

There is clearly something keeping him from just getting the divorce (my guess is that it's financial/property-related). Whatever it is, it's probably going to cause significant problems and delay even after he files.

I would agree. These things happen. Isn't the true issue the way this is being handled? The deception.

And I think Unicorn needs a plan for how to avoid more squabbling and resentment over every delay and every step of the process.

Well said.

[patientandclear]

Yep.  I'm not saying filing solves all issues.  I'm saying that without filing, in light of Unicorn's values, it seems very problematic to continue at all.  So I wouldn't give up on filing as an important marker.  Once the case is started, discovery and other mandatory court scheduling processes start to work, and you've essentially committed yourself to a stance of wanting to end the marriage.  That seems like an important and significant minimum step that could allow Unicorn to feel more breathing space to deal with the slings and arrows of the day to day relationship.

[unicorn2014]

B. Radically accept that he is not divorced and may never get divorced. Focus on minimizing your contribution to conflict, improving the boundaries between what's his business and what's your business, and controlling your emotional reactions to things that remind you of the divorce situation.

Thank you for this reply, I printed it out and will be using it to write in my journal about what is going on. I will also review your thread you quoted, thank you for that too.

In regards to the selection I picked, if anyone could pull off the radical acceptance part that would be me. I've had years of dbt and I've been trying to practice this principle of radical acceptance since I first discovered a Vietnamese Buddhist monk's writing at the library as a teenager. In fact I'm going to use this time off from my relationship to try to deal with some of my issues with my father which I think may be driving some of my issues with my partner.

In terms of the emotional reactivity part, that is where my challenge is going to be, and I will deal with that in my replies to the other posts on this thread.

Thank you very much for your input, its been very helpful. It took this village to get me to this point where I could even write a message like the one I sent to my partner.

[unicorn2014]

I do think putting a pin in the relationship until/unless a divorce petition is filed is not an unreasonable stretch.  Actually filing a divorce petition is a definitive step.  Actually getting the divorce decree is NOT within his control, but filing is.  It does not take a long time to actually prepare and file a divorce petition.  It wouldn't mean pausing for months and months, IF unicorn's partner decides he's willing to do that.

Thank you for this patient and clear, what do you think this pin might look like?

I chose to call my partner this afternoon to gently ask him to please stop texting me about my original message that I posted above and he complied. He told me that if he hires the lawyer he called today he will give me clearance to contact them so it appears he is willing to file. I told him we could talk on Monday about what kind of time frame we might be looking at regarding his filing. In the meantime I need to do the work to decide how I'm going to deal with that time frame if he indeed does hire this lawyer. I am open to suggestions.

[unicorn2014]

I think Unicorn needs a plan for how to avoid more squabbling and resentment over every delay and every step of the process.

Thank you this again, that is what I'm going to be working over this 4 day break from my relationship. You have clearly identified my biggest problem: my emotional reactivity to his divorce situation. That is going to be my challenge to deal with. Again I am open to suggestions to dealing with this problem. I suspect that I can apply my DBT skills here, there is a skill where you plan ahead to deal with stressful situations so perhaps I can write down some things that my partner has said to me that upset me and come up with some different ways of responding to them.

[unicorn2014]

Yep.  I'm not saying filing solves all issues.  I'm saying that without filing, in light of Unicorn's values, it seems very problematic to continue at all.  So I wouldn't give up on filing as an important marker.  Once the case is started, discovery and other mandatory court scheduling processes start to work, and you've essentially committed yourself to a stance of wanting to end the marriage.  That seems like an important and significant minimum step that could allow Unicorn to feel more breathing space to deal with the slings and arrows of the day to day relationship.

I agree patient and clear and it appears that my partner may finally actually be making progress. He did call an actual divorce attorney today and he is actually seriously considering hiring this divorce attorney and then giving me clearance to call the attorney and find out where things are at. If he indeed does this, then I will be able to relax a little and see if I can focus more on dealing with the everyday problems, which would include managing my emotional reactions to things he says. I'm going to try to do a little work on my relationship with my dad on the coping board during my break from my partner to see if I can get to the root of some of these behaviors. There are a lot of similarities between how  my father and my partner communicate.

I will do as once confused suggested to this again . I am familiar with the pros and cons of DBT where you look at an issue from 4 sides, the pro and cons of doing and the pros and cons of not doing a behavior. In this case it would be the pros and cons of leaving or not leaving the relationship.

I am very clear and I have made it very clear to my partner that I can not continue on like this (no divorce filing)  and he understands this. The divorce lawyer he contacted is out of the office until Monday so we will go from there.

[patientandclear]

This all sounds very encouraging.  Nice way to end 2015, Unicorn!

[unicorn2014]

Thank you patient and clear, once this current crisis with my d15 clears up I will be free to focus on identifying what I need to work on within myself so that my relationship with my partner has the option of being viable going in to the new year.

     

[Skip]

There is clearly something keeping him from just getting the divorce (my guess is that it's financial/property-related). Whatever it is, it's probably going to cause significant problems and delay even after he files.

I would agree. These things happen. Isn't the true issue the way this is being handled? The deception.

 

Let's hope for a brighter 2016!

 

[Grey Kitty]

     

I wish you a 2016 with more peace, clarity, and happiness.

I'm glad to see you reflecting on difficult realities here. It is the way forward for you. 

[unicorn2014]

Thank you Skip and GK, after 1 day of low contact it is clear to me that I do not want to resume normal relations with my partner until I have seen some kind of legal document to indicate he has filed for divorce. That was the relationship I signed up for, that he was going to file for divorce immediately, back in July 2012. Once that occurs then I feel I can reenter my relationship. Now as to how to set that up? I do not know yet. I will have to set up a new thread on that, either dealing with therapeutic separation, my boundary, or both. I am clear that my boundary is something that only I can enforce for myself. I know I need to be very clear on what I mean before I talk to my partner about it. One possibility is no facetime until I have seen the divorce filing document.

I have so far written down the positives and negatives about my relationship.