An extinction burst had an unexpected positive outcome (1)

[unicorn2014]

 

I'm going on over a week now of no FaceTime with my partner until either I see from him, his lawyer, or on the county website he's filed for divorce. He tells me his lawyer tells him because of all the work he's done it should only take a couple of months for him to be able to file for divorce and move. That sounds like very optimistic news but I'm not celebrating until I see what I've asked for.

The board had been urging me to stop doing things like location sharing and calendar sharing. I had discussed that with some members. I stopped sharing my location after one extinction burst and he stopped sharing his calendars after another extinction burst which in turn allowed me to stop sharing mine without causing yet a third extinction burst, so now all is quiet on the western front.

I was actually able to give my relationship over to God the other day just like I gave myself over to God in my 7th step. I feel like my relationship has been cleansed of all that was wrong with it structurally, the location sharing and the calendar sharing being the last things to go.

If and when I see the divorce has been filed either from him, his lawyer or the county website then it will be time to start working on treating him better, to put it simply.

[Kwamina]

Hi unicorn2014

I was actually able to give my relationship over to God the other day just like I gave myself over to God in my 7th step.

Letting go of the things we cannot control can feel scary, yet also be very liberating as it frees us to start working on the things we actually can control. The way you describe giving your relationship over to God, very much sounds like letting go of the things you cannot control, such as your partner's actions. Is this also how this feels to you?

If and when I see the divorce has been filed either from him, his lawyer or the county website then it will be time to start working on treating him better, to put it simply.

Given all that's going on, taking it slowly before moving on with the relationship seems advisable. A great advantage of taking things slow is that it allows us to be more mindful of everything that's going on in our lives. This 'pause' gives you the opportunity to reflect on everything that has happened so far and continue your own personal journey of healing and growth.

[Skip]

If and when I see the divorce has been filed either from him, his lawyer or the county website then it will be time to start working on treating him better, to put it simply.

Members have encouraged you to step back, dial back the intensity and involvement in each others lives, and stand strong to your moral values (and the boundaries needed to define them).

I don't think anyone is encouraging you to treat him bad until he proves he has filed for divorce. I know that I have warned you that this is a recipe for disaster.

As you describe things, and as he also see them, you are punishing him. Your are taking away thing he wants to send a message and manipulate him into action. You've tied your take away to he actions. You move the bar. You respond to his frustration by doing things that slap him back, more.  I assume if he get frustrated again, you will respond with something else.  Its a punitive parent routine. This is emotional abuse, Unicorn. You are showing him very little respect.

I understand that he lied to you. That's on him. It's bad. But it is not a reason or a pass to be abusive to him. We can back away from a relationship (which I think is the right thing for you) with integrity and compassion.

It really important that you shift the focus on to something that honors values and truth and openness and honesty. Right now, this is a relationship of deception (he) and manipulation (you). One a culture like this sets up, it is not reversible.

[unicorn2014]

Kwamina , at the moment I let go of my relationship I was clear. I'm struggling with another resentment now, the situation that caused him to stop sharing his calendar in the first place.

I agree with you about taking it slow. He sent me a divorce schedule and that also stirred up bad feelings. I wonder why am I seeing this in January 2016 instead of July 2012 when he first told me he was getting divorced.

The time out is helping me feel my feelings as my partner shames me for them and demands forgiveness.

Skip I was making a joke about treating him better later. I have dry humor. I don't know how to indicate that online. I was able to apologize for being emotionally unpredictable and hurtful and toxic. He denies being evasive and ambivalent .

I was truly relieved he stopped sharing his calendar as that allowed me to stop sharing mine without an extinction burst.

I was encouraged to stop sharing location in line with a boundary.

My understanding of sharing locations and calendars is it has  become weaponized on his end. His turning off his calendar really hurt me because it was coupled with telling me he was leaving me because I was emotionally abusive.  I had to weather that by myself without support and it had serious consequences.

I found out on Thursday that he had further deceived me, not about his marriage, but about something else he had been doing which has made me lose faith in sharing calendars. He might have stopped sharing his out of shame. It has to do with the privacy/secrets dichotomy other members were talking about previously. I will try to write up the specific incident .

[Skip]

Skip I was making a joke about treating him better later. I have dry humor. I don't know how to indicate that online. I was able to apologize for being emotionally unpredictable and hurtful. He denies being evasive and ambivalent .

You can use an emoticon. 

To be honest, I'm not responding to just your comment here.  I'm responding to what you have been doing for the last few weeks.

[unicorn2014]

Skip I admit and accept I have been emotionally abusive.

I am working on a new post defining a  value around not sharing calendar and location.

[Skip]

Skip I admit and accept I have been emotionally abusive.

I am working on a new post defining a  value around not sharing calendar and location.

I suggest approaching this from the other side. Something like:

1. What relationship (friendship, ex, therapeutic separation, etc.) are you trying to achieve, and why should he and you want that __________. What does it include.

2. Then list what goes away.

3. Then discuss a mature and compassionate way to make it go away. (Hint, taking things away, one by one, in response to him trying to recover things is not mature and compassionate).

Get the focus on the good things.  Even if the good things are a once a week call and no other contact - make that call reliable and consistent and fun. No more punishment for disappointment. 

[unicorn2014]

Skip, I will work on this. The calendar and location sharing have already been removed. So I will be starting from where things are now. FaceTime, calendar and location sharing have gone away. I think the value will need to be around phone contact. I am using the word value instead of the word boundary to take away the ultimatum component of boundary.

[Kwamina]

Hi again unicorn2014

Thanks for answering my question.

The time out is helping me feel my feelings as my partner shames me for them and demands forgiveness.

This is very positive that you are able to connect with your feelings What are you feeling exactly, can you put those feelings into words? You mention struggling with resentment, can you also identify other emotions you're experiencing since this time-out?

His turning off his calendar really hurt me because it was coupled with telling me he was leaving me because I was emotionally abusive.  I had to weather that by myself without support and it had serious consequences.

I am sorry this hurt you so. The way you describe it, I suspect this triggered some very intense emotions in you. Is that what you are referring to with the serious consequences? Or are you talking about something else?

[patientandclear]

Skip, can you elucidate the difference btwn "punishment for disappointment/taking things away he wants" and firm clear boundary enforcement?

[unicorn2014]

This is very positive that you are able to connect with your feelings What are you feeling exactly, can you put those feelings into words? You mention struggling with resentment, can you also identify other emotions you're experiencing since this time-out?

I'm experiencing frustration that I am still a single parent after having been in a relationship for 3.75 years. I'm also experiencing a feeling of loss. When I met my partner I was much less mature then I am now, being exposed to the financial, legal, psychological, business,  and relational problems of an older, wealthier, more professionally experienced and more formally educated man had a serious effect on me.

This was discussed before and I am going to bring it up again.

I'm definitely feeling strong feelings of anger about this.

My partner's attitude when I first met him in the Spring of 2012 was that he was trying to protect me from his life which is why he didn't tell me he was married in the first place. He thought he was going to be able to unwind his marriage before I ever found out about it. He had dissolved his marriage once before in his 20s and he thought it was going to be just as easy this time but it turned out it was not. He had accumulated property, assets, a business.

I told him today that I wish that he had sent me the list of working on his divorce back in July 2012 when he told me he was first going to divorce his wife.

He response was trying to remind me that he was trying to protect me from all that. Back in July 2012 I was naive and I believed him. I was looking for a father figure and I had no idea the man I picked had traits of a Cluster B personalty disorder.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

I am sorry this hurt you so. The way you describe it, I suspect this triggered some very intense emotions in you. Is that what you are referring to with the serious consequences? Or are you talking about something else?

I'm talking about something else. I had blocked him on my phone and he sent me a series of emails where he was calling me abusive, telling me I had a disorder, telling me I needed to get help, telling me not to contact him again. I actually copied and pasted those into a note in preparation to post them here. I told him that was fine if he was going to leave me but I wanted to him to tell me that to my face on FaceTime instead of in email. He refused. I don't know who called who but we ended up getting in a big argument on the phone.

My d15 kept coming in the room and trying to stop the argument. After we hung up the phone we were still texting and she tried to stop me from texting, even though I was in the kitchen and was quiet as a church mouse. I was sick so she made me tea in an effort to get me to go to bed. She was trying to parent me even though I was trying to keep to myself in the kitchen. Then when I was in the shower she snuck out and didn't come back till the next evening. When I asked her if that argument was part of why she left she said yes there were "bad vibes". She had been acting out for 3 days prior: coming home at 2am on Tuesday after running off to go for a hike at 9pm, staying out till 8pm on Wednesday after I told her to come home right after school and lying to me about being at the school library when in reality she was in another city she was not allowed to go to, Thursday she had two boys walk her home from school and then she locked them in her room when I got home from the store which in resulted in me confiscating her laptop for the first time in her life. I had already taken away her phone and her iPod. So when I got in an argument with my partner it gave my d15 the perfect excuse to run away.

[unicorn2014]

The unsolicited and unexpected email my partner sent to me on January 6 at 11:55pm. He titled it

What I am looking or from you

Hi

i need to wake up in the morning  and know I am not going to hear things like "if you want to be in a relationship with me... ." I Need our relationship not to be continually

threaten when you don't like something.

I need to know the person who claims to be my partner is committed to the relationship and your commitment to the relationship ship is not based on the mood you are in.

I also expect to to get your projecting under control.

You put yourself on me and you continually paint me over with your past relationships and current ones. I have talked to three therapist about this.

I have spent a small future in what I call subtractive diagnosis which

Means I found out what  I don't have based in exploring with a therapist the things you have told me I have.

Further I  am looking to see  you to deal with the spiritual cancer of resentment that you had before I meant you and you brought into our relationship when I disappointed you and you discovered I am not perfect.

I also am looking for you to stop rewriting our history to reflect your current view point.

I am looking to see that the person who claims to be my partner starts acting like one.

I am finally I am  looking to see to start caring more about how you treat others and less about how they treat you.

I replied the next morning at 8:24am

Please let me know what time you will be calling me tonight.

He replied at 9:20am

Since you are avoiding me I won't be. Tried many way to reach you only to discover you turned off your phone and pulled your landline.



Please let me know what time you will be calling me tonight.

I replied at 11:28am

I just woke up. Then I will call you after my meeting.

I was very sick and my daughter had stayed out till 2am the night before and Wednesday was the first day I could sleep in since Sunday.

He replied at 11:31am

No thank you  

I replied at 12:10pm

Let me know when you want a phone call. I won't try again until I know you are going to answer.

I didn't hear from him the rest of the day so I wrote to him again at 8:13pm

What a self righteous letter you wrote. And now you've left me and are giving me the silent treatment. That's fine. Once I get help with this I'll deal with it properly .

(I was not prepared to deal with the silent treatment as an outcome of me establishing a boundary.)

He replied at 9:26pm

You are are very spiritually sick person

Who values are

Resentment, self righteousness and drama

Then at 9:59pm he stopped sharing the calendar he created for me, which I found out later meant nothing because he was still doing things he wasn't telling me about which I will discuss later.

That triggered a flood from me.

[unicorn2014]

I was not prepared for my partner's extinction burst email. It totally caught me off guard and I had no help. So I responded reacted to it and sent my partner an email in response.

I titled it you left me 1/7 10:09pm

You didn’t even have the decency to leave me over FaceTime, you left me in an email.

He responded at 10:23pm

You are a very abusive

And crossed the line

I warned you about this and you do not care

I responded reacted at 10:23pm

I loved you unicorn's partner. I was not going to leave you. I told you this over and over again. I told you I wanted us to work out.

[unicorn2014]

This was actually my first reaction to my partner's extinction burst email sent on 1/7 at 10:08pm entitled

You have broken my heart

I believed you when you said you loved me and weren’t going to leave me. You have abandoned me.

he responded on 1/7 at 10:26pm

fell in love with you and still am

But I can not be treated like this

I tried and tried and you do not listen


There will never be anyone but you, but I can not let you continue to be abusive.

If you promise to stop I will reconsider but until you do it is over

I responded at 10:27pm

I asked you to facetime me and leave me properly. Do not leave a 3.8 year relationship through email. I have tried to call you and your mail box is full. You can facetime me in the kitchen and tell me you are leaving me to my face. I will be waiting.

So this situation is going on meanwhile I have a d15 who's mad at me for enforcing my value of long term emotional and physical sobriety and who wants to go live with her drug abusing and dealing father and his family.

Things were chaotic.

[unicorn2014]

My partner's extinction burst email really triggered me, as you will see I wrote him a third email. I was totally unprepared to deal with this on my own. I know people had told me that disordered threatened to leave the relationship as a way of getting their way, that they make threats that they are not serious about, but none of that mattered in the heat of the moment, especially with what was going on in tandem with my d15. Obviously I am still very naive about dealing with a  personality disordered partner even after 3 years. Remember the extinction burst that first brought me here was a suicide attempt on his part that I called in. I still haven't learned my lesson after all this time. Im just shaking my head as I've had so many years of recovery and therapy and yet I'm still so codependent. Its baffling.

I sent my partner at third email at 10:25pm on 1/7 entitled

Lets say goodbye properly on FaceTime please

I do not want to do this in email.

he replied at 10:29pm

If you promise to get help

I will reconsider

I need you to apologies that you have been abusive

And you will start listing me me and stop fighting me every inch

(That is why I get for looking for reparenting in the past  from a personality disordered partner. I had talked extensively with my 7 year therapist about this)

I replied to him at 11:56pm

I will be sure to print this email out and bring it to my first session when I get a new therapist.

Of course it really makes me mad when he tells me to get help. I've got 3 12 step programs, a sponsor, a business coach, DBT, a parental stress line, this board, and he's telling me to get help.

[patientandclear]

Unicorn, I don't think he was intending to leave you when he sent the "this is what I need from you" email. I think he was saying how, from his perspective, YOU were threatening the r/ship whenever he does something you don't like. When you did not acknowledge the possible validity of some of that perspective, he may have felt like he was painted into a corner and had nowhere else to go except to say he was done, unless you "get help." By "get help," I presume he means, find support so you can be able to hear him and process what he needs.

I don't know that it matters but I would not call his email about "what I need" an extinction burst. It seemed a relatively responsible attempt to get you to hear how things look and feel to him.

Have you processed this with your therapist yet?

[unicorn2014]

Unicorn, I don't think he was intending to leave you when he sent the "this is what I need from you" email. I think he was saying how, from his perspective, YOU were threatening the r/ship whenever he does something you don't like. When you did not acknowledge the possible validity of some of that perspective, he may have felt like he was painted into a corner and had nowhere else to go except to say he was done, unless you "get help." By "get help," I presume he means, find support so you can be able to hear him and process what he needs.

Patient and clear, I don't think that's what he means, but I will ask him. In a later email or text or message he said I had a disorder. I talked to him about that today. I told him if he thinks I have a disorder that is going to color how he sees everything about me.

I am currently working on getting a new individual  therapist to work with while I am doing DBT. I met with a DBT therapist   on Wednesday regarding this, which is ironic considering my partner sent me that email on Wednesday night.

Here's his "get help" email again.

If you promise to get help

I will reconsider

I need you to apologies that you have been abusive

And you will start listing me me and stop fighting me every inch

Apparently he agrees that I am emotionally abusive.

I saw something on the leaving board about someone who had started emotionally abusing their emotional abuser. I am afraid that I might have started doing that too even though I haven't made the decision to detach  yet. My partner thinks I learned to be emotionally abusive from my  mother. I think I learned it from him as well as her.

[thisagain]

Hey Unicorn,

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time 

All I can say again, is to try to get back to slowing down, not engaging in fights, and focusing on the big picture. This drama is distracting both of you from the core issue of him filing for divorce. If he doesn't file, you've decided you can't continue in the relationship--regardless of who has what disorder, who's abusing whom, etc.

I can see some truth in what he's saying. You have contributed (and are continuing to contribute) to the unhealthy dynamics in your relationship, which each of you perceives as emotional abuse. Can you go through his messages and think about where there might be truth? Do you think you could pause and think more about your role and how to change it, instead of continuing this back-and-forth?

If you aren't ready to work on that until after he's filed for divorce, then I think the kindest thing to do is to take a big step back. Either full NC after explaining it to him in a clear and respectful way, or extreme LC (like we talked about before, small talk, avoiding triggers, zero relationship talk).

[unicorn2014]

I can see some truth in what he's saying. You have contributed (and are continuing to contribute) to the unhealthy dynamics in your relationship, which each of you perceives as emotional abuse. Can you go through his messages and think about where there might be truth? Do you think you could pause and think more about your role and how to change it, instead of continuing this back-and-forth?

I have already discussed this with him and admitted to him that I am emotionally abusive and that currently our biggest problems are his divorce and my emotional abuse. I am currently looking for a therapist. He is very happy I am taking this approach and I am very happy he is continuing to work on his divorce.

I will be sure to let the board know when I am either given a therapist by the DBT team or am able to locate one on my own.

I was able to discern that I get emotionally abusive when I feel trapped, whether by my mother, my ex, or my current partner and I was able to share this with him and he appreciated it. I told him his divorce created a toxic situation for me where I felt trapped. He understood what I was saying. Hopefully this will be resolved in a couple of months.

I have to say that reading UTBM and writing on the coping board is also really helping as I am sure this is triggering unresolved coping issues.

He actually said whatever help I am getting is really making a difference, so that is a testament to everyone here on the board! 

[Kwamina]

Remember the extinction burst that first brought me here was a suicide attempt on his part that I called in. I still haven't learned my lesson after all this time. Im just shaking my head as I've had so many years of recovery and therapy and yet I'm still so codependent. Its baffling.

What's done is done. We cannot change the past and any of our past actions, but we can control what we do now in the present and how we move forward. There are various ways to read that initial e-mail you got from him. No matter how it's read, it is important to indeed respond and not react. You also realize this quite well based on your strike-outs of the word respond and replacing it with react. It's of course always easier in hindsight to say what we could have done better. Still, whenever you receive a (potentially) hostile e-mail/text it might help to keep the following in mind:

Don’t respond the moment a demand is made. Give yourself time to think and assess the matter.  We want to respond - not react.

You can only control your own responses. If you feel he's making false accusations or trying to change the subject (from focusing on the divorce), the J.A.D.E. technique can be very helpful, as in don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.

I know you are familiar with the B.I.F.F. technique, I mention it here because this technique is specifically designed for handling hostile email/text communications. This technique talks about keeping your responses brief, informative, friendly (as in civil) and firm. An important part of this technique however is also to ask yourself if a response is needed at all:

Much of hostile mail does not need a response... .The letter itself has no power, unless you give it power. Often, it is emotional venting aimed at relieving the writer’s anxiety. If you respond with similar emotions and hostility, you will simply escalate things without satisfaction, and just get a new piece of hostile mail back. In most cases, you are better off not responding.

Some letters and e-mails develop power when copies are filed in a court or complaint process—or simply get sent to other people. In these cases, it may be important to respond to inaccurate statements with accurate statements of fact. If so, use a BIFF response.

I think keeping these quotes and techniques in mind can be very helpful for future interactions with your partner. Regardless of who is right or wrong, whether the initial email was intended to be hostile or not, these techniques can help break the cycle of conflict and open the door to more healthy and constructive ways of communicating with each other. Using these techniques to focus your attention and structure your communication, can also really help keep yourself more calm as you deal with all of this. These structured ways of communicating can also help us structure our own thinking.

What are your thoughts on the things I've said here?

Take care

[Skip]

Skip I admit and accept I have been emotionally abusive.

... .and as we have talked, it is destroying the emotional fiber of the relationship.

It will help to untangle what you are doing wrong, vs what he is doing wrong, and clean up your side of the street. You keep justifying your "bad acts" on his "bad acts" and that only creates a toxic cycle.

1. His deceptiveness on the divorce was wrong.

2. His not wanting to get a divorce right now is his right and its OK.

3. Your "punitive parent" approach is wrong.

4. You not wanting to be in a relationship with a married man is your right and it is OK.

The only healthy solution is for you have firm values on zero tolerance on #1 and #3.

#2 and #4 needs to be respected by both parties. This is a problem to be solved or a reason to part ways.

90% of the effort between the two of you is focused on #1 and #3. Its toxic.

With respect to #2 and #4, I don't sense he wants to file for divorce, even now.  As others have said, there is probably some tax or financial problem he doesn't or can't resolve. Because the two of you are choose to manipulate each other, rather than communicate about your potentially irreconcilable differences, this just keeps eroding.

Intimacy is the ability to talk to each other in an open way. Neither of you do that. That's why this can't be solved. The next conflict will be more of the same unless you (both of you) change it. Neither of you want to submit to professional help to do this.

A member referred to this as a slow motion train wreck a week ago - this is what he was saying. There are two trains on the same track heading directly at each other... .

I don't know that it matters but I would not call his email about "what I need" an extinction burst. It seemed a relatively responsible attempt to get you to hear how things look and feel to him.

Have you processed this with your therapist yet?

My impression, too.

[unicorn2014]

Don’t respond the moment a demand is made. Give yourself time to think and assess the matter.  We want to respond - not react.

You can only control your own responses. If you feel he's making false accusations or trying to change the subject (from focusing on the divorce), the J.A.D.E. technique can be very helpful, as in don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.

I know you are familiar with the B.I.F.F. technique, I mention it here because this technique is specifically designed for handling hostile email/text communications. This technique talks about keeping your responses brief, informative, friendly (as in civil) and firm. An important part of this technique however is also to ask yourself if a response is needed at all:

Much of hostile mail does not need a response... .The letter itself has no power, unless you give it power. Often, it is emotional venting aimed at relieving the writer’s anxiety. If you respond with similar emotions and hostility, you will simply escalate things without satisfaction, and just get a new piece of hostile mail back. In most cases, you are better off not responding.

I think keeping these quotes and techniques in mind can be very helpful for future interactions with your partner. Regardless of who is right or wrong, whether the initial email was intended to be hostile or not, these techniques can help break the cycle of conflict and open the door to more healthy and constructive ways of communicating with each other. Using these techniques to focus your attention and structure your communication, can also really help keep yourself more calm as you deal with all of this. These structured ways of communicating can also help us structure our own thinking.

What are your thoughts on the things I've said here?

Take care

Hi Kwamina, I agree with everything you said here, and seeing the late hour at which my partner wrote that horrible email, I don't think he was very rational. It was almost 3am where he was.

He and I are getting along fine now since I apologized for being emotionally abusive and told him I was getting help however I am very concerned about the violent language he is using, which is what I was reacting to. In later emails he described my values as including resentment and drama, meanwhile he prides himself on not feeling resentment, which he didn't say in that email but which he does say all the time out loud. Furthermore telling me I'm sick, need to get help, he said things like I introduced spiritual cancer into the relationship, that's all violent, confrontational, hostile language. It makes think that if I have to use the BIFF response with my partner that perhaps he is not a good partner for me.

I will review the lessons on J.A.D.E. and B.I.F.F... I am quite sure that I am being driven by being the all bad child in my FOO, meaning to say that's why when he hurls his false accusations at me they stick to me like glue. I am confident that if I continue to work on my FOO issues, especially this all bad child false projection my FOO put on me I will be less reactive to my partner's hostile emails and eventually I may no longer want to be in a relationship with a hostile person. One can only hope.

I think the biggest thing I have to be careful of is not picking up his hostile language and throwing it back at him, but recognizing it for what it is and not correcting him but not responding to it either. One of the fights we used to get in is he was saying I was getting  hung up on protocol. I need a lot of help to not react or even respond to his nasty language and because my father used nasty language, I am attuned to it and react to it.

I'm not very confident that I can respond differently to him because I am hard wired to respond to hostile language because of my FOO which is why I think the only way to solve these problems is to do more FOO work.

I am thinking that a healthy and undamaged person would take one look at those hostile emails, hit delete, and move on with their night and not think about them again.

[unicorn2014]

With respect to #2 and #4, I don't sense he wants to file for divorce, even now.  As others have said, there is probably some tax or financial problem he doesn't or can't resolve. Because the two of you are choose to manipulate each other, rather than communicate about your potentially irreconcilable differences, this just keeps eroding.

He sent me a bullet point list of action steps he is taking next week to move the divorce forward.

Intimacy is the ability to talk to each other in an open way. Neither of you do that. That's why this can't be solved. The next conflict will be more of the same unless you (both of you) change it. Neither of you want to submit to professional help to do this.

I was seeing a temporary therapist in September and October when I found out his divorce hadn't been filed.

I was in DBT in the fall and we just started again last week.

I am currently trying to obtain an individual therapist.

My partner does not think he has a problem with intimacy, he thinks the problem is all me. He thinks I am verbally abusive. He blames me for his inability to be open. I've had enough of that.

Part of the conflict I had with him as I found out he had been talking to the psychiatrist I referred him to over the phone for at least 2 months. That is part of the reason why I said an extinction burst had an unexpected positive outcome, because I found out that my level of disclosure and his level of disclosure in regards to our calendars was not in sync. So the positive outcome is when he stopped sharing his calendar with me as act of leaving me it allowed me to stopped sharing my calendars with him.

I have tried to communicate with him that the reason that location sharing is not a good idea is because it has become a weapon but he denies this.

That is what this post was about, about how his extinction burst email which he wrote at 3am allowed me to turn off my calendars without getting his attention and having another outburst on his part.

My former ACA sponsor and members of this board felt that calendar and location sharing was bad boundaries between his business and my business and that is what I was trying to address with this post.

[patientandclear]

Unicorn, hello. You are working so hard--just wanted to acknowledge that this is a lot of thinking and self-scrutiny on your part.

For what it's worth--I do not perceive these particular msgs from your partner as being hostile. They remind me of things I've said or wished I had been brave enough to say to my ex. I think he is being open with you about what he erceives to be going on that threatens what's good in your relationship. If you were in fact to delete and ignore them, I think you'd be missed out on valuable information about what it feels to be him.

[unicorn2014]

Hi p&c I understand that you do not think that his email to me was an extinction burst.

He sent to me at 2:55am EST.

He was not in his wise mind at 3am.

The reason I referred to his email as an extinction burst is it is a reaction to me upholding my value of not wanting to be in an intimate relationship with a married man.

As a result he is trying to find some kind of boundary to set with me so now he's decided I'm verbally abusive, has talked to a  therapist about it, read about it, and thinks that he has equal cause to set a boundary. Its retaliatory. He doesn't see a therapist in person unless he has a problem with me and then its only to talk about how to deal with me. He doesn't think he has any problems separate from me that would warrant seeing a therapist in person.


He is retaliating against my value by trying to define one of his own.

In fact in his mind he has now made me out to be abusive which then allows him to set boundaries. I asked him to provide me with the material he is reading which is dictating how he is treating me and he said that would have to wait.

He is focusing on my behavior rather then recognizing the damaging consequences his deception murkiness has on the relationship.

I have to be the strong one and uphold my value of not wanting to be in an intimate relationship with a married man.

I could say the trouble I'm having with my partner today is because I am still allowing myself to have an (emotionally) intimate relationship with a married man.

I have heard a lot of talk from him about the timeline he is now on with his divorce attorney and the things he and his divorce attorney have talked about but as I have recently learned from the absence of information on the calendar he used to share with me that talk means nothing.

I could practice radical acceptance around the fact that my partner is deceptive, murky .

My partner denies he is deceptive but has admitted from the very start that he is murky and in fact told me he knew if he wanted to be with me he could not be murky. Well, he hasn't done a very good job of not being murky. In fact I caught him in even more murkiness just last week, and of course he blamed his inability to be intimate on me. I told him that does not work for me.

The positive outcome is that I was able to stop sharing my calendars with him without drawing his attention but today we are dealing with a different problem.

--------

I think the most difficult thing I have to accept right now is I can not rely on him for help with my d15 because he thinks of and treats me like I am an abusive person. That will not be helpful to me when I am going through a crisis with my d15.

I thought that while I was waiting for him to file that I could continue to "co-parent" with him.

Now I see that I was wrong.

Others on the board had cautioned me against this .

I now see that is a mistake for me to turn to my partner in times of crisis with my d15.

By doing so I expose my vulnerable emotions to him which is a unwise  thing to do.

(As an adult child of disordered family of origin  I am really trying to work on making my language more gentle.)

[thisagain]

I think his e-mail made several valid points. But, I know you aren't ready to be working on that right now. I also think you're right that he's using this to deflect attention from himself and the divorce.

You are both so hurting and raw right now that almost any contact (including contact that an outsider would interpret as positive, productive, or at least innocuous) is causing a world of pain to you both. Do you see that dynamic? What do you think you can do to break the cycle?

[Grey Kitty]

He sent me a bullet point list of action steps he is taking next week to move the divorce forward.

Noo. Not that again!

Please don't get involved with that. That is the start of the same toxic cycle. You know it too well. You don't want to ask him if he took those steps, and hear him deny, evade, or lie to you. You know how painful that is. The only waybtobprotect yourself from that is to not ask and not get involved. I'd suggest asking him not to share progress reports before filing with the courts with you!

Can you work out what relationship you want with him while he is married to somebody else and do that. As skip suggested a ways back.

Stay there until he is actually divorced (or at least filed with the courts!)

[unicorn2014]

I think his e-mail made several valid points. But, I know you aren't ready to be working on that right now. I also think you're right that he's using this to deflect attention from himself and the divorce.

You are both so hurting and raw right now that almost any contact (including contact that an outsider would interpret as positive, productive, or at least innocuous) is causing a world of pain to you both. Do you see that dynamic? What do you think you can do to break the cycle?

I am thinking that I not interact with him until I am able to bring that email to a therapist. I will be calling my health plan in the morning to try and get a therapist.

I'm perfectly happy to be working on what he told me in that email. My position is if he finds me abusive and needs to get help to stay in an abusive relationship then I need to go no contact until I talk to a therapist about this.

I think that email was a ruse.

It was written at 3am.

He was trying to get something to bargain with and apparently he did.

I need to point out to the board that out of one side of his mouth he's calling me abusive, sick, telling me I need to get help, telling me not to contact him, telling me he's blocking me (he said those things today) and on the other side of his mouth he's telling he loves me, he needs to get divorced so he can move out here to help me with my daughter, he cares about my me. He just texted me to ask me if I'm going to my meeting.

I am sorry, but if I thought someone was abusing me, texting them would be the last thing I would be doing.

[unicorn2014]

He sent me a bullet point list of action steps he is taking next week to move the divorce forward.

Noo. Not that again!

Please don't get involved with that. That is the start of the same toxic cycle. You know it too well. You don't want to ask him if he took those steps, and hear him deny, evade, or lie to you. You know how painful that is. The only waybtobprotect yourself from that is to not ask and not get involved. I'd suggest asking him not to share progress reports before filing with the courts with you!

Can you work out what relationship you want with him while he is married to somebody else and do that. As skip suggested a ways back.

Stay there until he is actually divorced (or at least filed with the courts!)

I am trying GK.

I thought I could talk to him about parenting stuff but today I found out that was not a good idea as parenting stuff brings up challenging  emotions in me and makes me vulnerable to him. I think I just experienced some triangulation and drama triangle stuff with him today.

Btw I did not ask him for a progress report. And as I shared the whole point of this post was to share with the board that I am no longer sharing locations and calendars. He is trying to bring it back but I am not giving in.

As I stated previously I'm thinking that maybe I don't contact him again until I've had a chance to show his letter to a therapist.

I should also state today he asked me if we could watch Star Trek together on Friday, and then I think he also offered to stay with me on the phone while I look for my daughter. (She went missing again today, but is home now).

So as I stated previously with one hand he is telling me I'm sick, I need help, I'm abusive and with the other hand he is telling me he wants to FaceTime me, share calendars, share locations, tells me he loves me, tells me he wants to get divorced so he can move out here to help me with my daughter.

Its crazy making.

However since some members of the board think he "What I am looking or from you" 2:55am email is legitimate, I have printed it out to take to my next therapist.

------

Today in the middle of a crisis with my d15 (she went missing again and is home now) he's telling me I'm sick and I need help. I'm sorry but that doesn't work for me. I don't need that kind of drama.

He wants me to call him in a crisis but then when he can't handle me he drops me like a hot potato and tells me there's something wrong with me.

-----

I think I  need to create  a way to tell him that I think it would be better that I not contact him again until I am able to discuss his "What I am looking or from you" email with a therapist because of what happened today.

------

I also printed out the message where it was suggested I define what relationship I am trying to achieve (friendship, ex, therapeutic separation).

I was trying to coparent with him but today when I called him to tell him about two issues going on with my d15 he made a reference to something one of  his T told him the last time he got verbally abusive with me and that triggered me and I hung up on him. I realized I could not work closely with him when I was feeling triggered by my d15 behavior because he inevitably he was going to say something that was going to trigger me as well.

------

I think what this is pointing out to me is that I can not coparent with him at this point. I thought I could but I think I was wrong. And to be frank I don't know that I could ever coparent or would want to coparent with somebody who thought I was sick, abusive, valued drama and resentment, introduced spiritual cancer into the relationship. That's not really someone I want to rely on to help me make decisions in a crisis.

----

So the challenge is going to be how do I communicate that to him? So if I am following those principles of defining the relationship, I think coparenting with him at this point is too risky considering the kinds of things he's been saying to me.

[thisagain]

Can you slow down and look at the dynamics of the relationship as a whole, rather than the issue of the day? It'll be hard for a therapist in one session to get an accurate idea of what's going on and where that e-mail was coming from. Your going NC until a therapy session, again, has an air of punishing him for the e-mail rather than appropriate boundary enforcement. I think it's very possible that you are not in a place emotionally to talk with him without feeding more conflict and toxicity--but that doesn't sound like what you're saying.

I'm not sure it's helpful to think of it as you emotionally abusing him, so much as you contributing to the conflict that is very hurtful to you both, or contributing to the unhealthy dynamic that you both are experiencing as emotional abuse. Does that make sense?

Many members have observed that you have been acting in a way that is confusing and hurtful to him, and contributing to a very high daily level of conflict that hurts you both and erodes at your relationship. That can be true at the same time as him emotionally abusing you, or him showing BPD behaviors (or just generally obnoxious behaviors) that are very hurtful to you.

I firmly believe that my ex emotionally abused me and I did not emotionally abuse her. However I did respond to her abuse and neglect in ways that were painful to her and not beneficial to our relationship. It wasn't emotionally abusive for me to want a hug when I'm upset, but if I see that she's shut down and isn't capable of giving me a hug, and I cry and beg instead of just giving her space to pull herself together, that's a high-conflict reaction, doesn't get either of us what we want, and is intensely upsetting and frustrating to her. It goes back to radical acceptance and realistic expectations.

In your relationship, it is absolutely not emotionally abusive to not want to be in a relationship with a married man. It's even fine to resent the deception/murkiness so much that you're unable to carry on a relationship-as-usual with him without the resentment seeping out (like we talked about before with all the picking on little things). But the kind thing to do in response is to back away from the relationship until the tension has been resolved (either by him filing/getting divorced, or by you working on radical acceptance). Not to keep picking daily fights or, as Skip mentioned, taking the punitive-parent role with respect to his divorce.