I really consider this a success.

[Depression = 72% of members]

I have been with my husband 9 years this year.  He has a BPD ex wife, the mother of his 2 kids. 

I started the relationship naively believing that if DH and I just loved his ex through her tantrums, threats, and hardship, she would see that we are willing to support her even if she is mentally ill.

Over time, the crazy games with the kids--trying to make them think we hate them, do not care, she is the only one who loves them, etc--and the viciousness of her legal attacks, false accusations, etc, really challenged my ability to hold a compassionate place in my heart for her. 

But man, I worked at it.  It was so important to me to not give in to the feeling of powerless anger at her, but to know that though she could convince people that DH and I were bad for a few months, it never held, and the pain she experienced to be able to do that was so much more than that I felt because of being unfairly blamed.  It was painful to see how worked over the kids were when returning from mom's, their shoulders so tight, not being able to eat due to anxiety, etc.  But they would calm down, laugh and be kids, and I realized that their mom NEVER could really be a kid when she was little.  I learned about much of the severe abuse their mom suffered as a child, and saw that no matter how difficult she was for her kids, it never TOUCHED what her mom did to her.  She tries so hard to be a good mom.  I saw that her anger at me for being a "better mom" than her was justified--not because I took a mom role, as I do not see myself as mom and never want to be a mom--but by the fact that I naturally understand empathy and nurturing in a way she was never taught. 

Bottom line, long after I gave up on my empathy having any impact on BPDex, I practiced it for me and for the kids.  I believed that their mom was doing her very best, and that this was a HUGE accomplishment given her upbringing and the resulting challenges she faced as a child. I loved her, not liked her most of the time, but loved her because she is part of my family, the mommy to the people I love so much. 

So here is the success:

1) My heart stayed open, with clear boundaries and not much interaction for many years, and lots of time hanging up on a screaming ex-wife in law. 

2) The kids came to know and rely upon that.  My 15 year old once said to me, "I think the best thing for my mom would be to spend some time with you."  She also said, "I see all you do for us, how much you do for me and my sister, and I love you more than you will ever know. I see how you want everyone to be taken care of--my mom, me, my sister, my dad, and even you.  You never leave anybody out. Everyone matters to you, and I love you so much for that."

3) And, this is the biggee... .drumroll please... .we seem to now be in a situation where BPD mom is actually seeing this too.  We have had about 4 crises in the last year where she called to talk to me... .to apologize, to get my help before she flipped out at other parents of my SD's friends, to ask for support in a genuine way.  She has honestly, not in a victimizing-herself-for-sympathy way, but a real way, admitted that she really feels permanently messed up by things that happened to her as a child, and she sees that I deal with things better as a result.  So she wants me to help her.

This is fricken AMAZING.  She definitely has both narcissistic and BPD challenges that come out--screaming and yelling and threatening us; or telling us she is a horrible person, ultra-victim, or both at the same time. 

But we also get a ton of gratitude from her at the same time.  I get her calling me and telling me she feels like we are a team.  I get her texting me to say good things.  And, I get her view on the kids, for real, not just to manipulate me. 

When she used to do the BPD manipulative victim rage with me it was :"YOU are not their mother!  I am the one who can never move away, who is FORCED to be her because I married my ex, you both have EVERYTHING and I have NOTHING, how dare you not let me live with MY family in another state!"   Me meanwhile making sure she knows I am not a parent, do not think I am, do not have a say regarding parenting plans, am nothing.  Deferring totally.

Now, the same state of mind yields her saying "You are the real parents.  I am not.  I am a terrible mom.  At least I trust that the girls will never live in an abusive home the way I did.  You and my ex would never hurt each other or the kids, I trust you totally.  I know you are a good parent."

And I say, "You are their only mommy, that is not my role.  Do you want to hear how I address when the kids are having that (whatever problem triggered her freak out)?"  Her: "Yes, I would love some ideas about that."  Me: "I know it is so scary being a parent of a teen going through that.  But I say, 'I trust your judgement.  I trust you to ask for help if it feels to big.  Do you need some ideas about how to address that?'"  Her: "I am really, truly grateful we are now more of a team."  Me: "Me, too." 

Sure, sometimes she calls and texts 16 times in a row, raging, because we did not (fill in the blank). 

But it seems to always return to this sense of trust.  How can that be ?

To me, that is the fantastic success I wanted when I naively started dating DH, when I thought we could love her through this, and eventually she would.  Sure, there is so much other water under the bridge, way more boundaries and clarity and strength than I thought it would take.  But we are still in that place where she can be who she is, and we can be who we are, and we can actually be a team.  A team dealing with raising teens with a BPD mom, a team with someone who lacks communication skills for ANY level of conflict.  But a team. 

[ennie]

I have been with my husband 9 years this year.  He has a BPD ex wife, the mother of his 2 kids. 

I started the relationship naively believing that if DH and I just loved his ex through her tantrums, threats, and hardship, she would see that we are willing to support her even if she is mentally ill.

Over time, the crazy games with the kids--trying to make them think we hate them, do not care, she is the only one who loves them, etc--and the viciousness of her legal attacks, false accusations, etc, really challenged my ability to hold a compassionate place in my heart for her. 

But man, I worked at it.  It was so important to me to not give in to the feeling of powerless anger at her, but to know that though she could convince people that DH and I were bad for a few months, it never held, and the pain she experienced to be able to do that was so much more than that I felt because of being unfairly blamed.  It was painful to see how worked over the kids were when returning from mom's, their shoulders so tight, not being able to eat due to anxiety, etc.  But they would calm down, laugh and be kids, and I realized that their mom NEVER could really be a kid when she was little.  I learned about much of the severe abuse their mom suffered as a child, and saw that no matter how difficult she was for her kids, it never TOUCHED what her mom did to her.  She tries so hard to be a good mom.  I saw that her anger at me for being a "better mom" than her was justified--not because I took a mom role, as I do not see myself as mom and never want to be a mom--but by the fact that I naturally understand empathy and nurturing in a way she was never taught. 

Bottom line, long after I gave up on my empathy having any impact on BPDex, I practiced it for me and for the kids.  I believed that their mom was doing her very best, and that this was a HUGE accomplishment given her upbringing and the resulting challenges she faced as a child. I loved her, not liked her most of the time, but loved her because she is part of my family, the mommy to the people I love so much. 

So here is the success:

1) My heart stayed open, with clear boundaries and not much interaction for many years, and lots of time hanging up on a screaming ex-wife in law. 

2) The kids came to know and rely upon that.  My 15 year old once said to me, "I think the best thing for my mom would be to spend some time with you."  She also said, "I see all you do for us, how much you do for me and my sister, and I love you more than you will ever know. I see how you want everyone to be taken care of--my mom, me, my sister, my dad, and even you.  You never leave anybody out. Everyone matters to you, and I love you so much for that."

3) And, this is the biggee... .drumroll please... .we seem to now be in a situation where BPD mom is actually seeing this too.  We have had about 4 crises in the last year where she called to talk to me... .to apologize, to get my help before she flipped out at other parents of my SD's friends, to ask for support in a genuine way.  She has honestly, not in a victimizing-herself-for-sympathy way, but a real way, admitted that she really feels permanently messed up by things that happened to her as a child, and she sees that I deal with things better as a result.  So she wants me to help her.

This is fricken AMAZING.  She definitely has both narcissistic and BPD challenges that come out--screaming and yelling and threatening us; or telling us she is a horrible person, ultra-victim, or both at the same time. 

But we also get a ton of gratitude from her at the same time.  I get her calling me and telling me she feels like we are a team.  I get her texting me to say good things.  And, I get her view on the kids, for real, not just to manipulate me. 

When she used to do the BPD manipulative victim rage with me it was :"YOU are not their mother!  I am the one who can never move away, who is FORCED to be her because I married my ex, you both have EVERYTHING and I have NOTHING, how dare you not let me live with MY family in another state!"   Me meanwhile making sure she knows I am not a parent, do not think I am, do not have a say regarding parenting plans, am nothing.  Deferring totally.

Now, the same state of mind yields her saying "You are the real parents.  I am not.  I am a terrible mom.  At least I trust that the girls will never live in an abusive home the way I did.  You and my ex would never hurt each other or the kids, I trust you totally.  I know you are a good parent."

And I say, "You are their only mommy, that is not my role.  Do you want to hear how I address when the kids are having that (whatever problem triggered her freak out)?"  Her: "Yes, I would love some ideas about that."  Me: "I know it is so scary being a parent of a teen going through that.  But I say, 'I trust your judgement.  I trust you to ask for help if it feels to big.  Do you need some ideas about how to address that?'"  Her: "I am really, truly grateful we are now more of a team."  Me: "Me, too." 

Sure, sometimes she calls and texts 16 times in a row, raging, because we did not (fill in the blank). 

But it seems to always return to this sense of trust.  How can that be ?

To me, that is the fantastic success I wanted when I naively started dating DH, when I thought we could love her through this, and eventually she would.  Sure, there is so much other water under the bridge, way more boundaries and clarity and strength than I thought it would take.  But we are still in that place where she can be who she is, and we can be who we are, and we can actually be a team.  A team dealing with raising teens with a BPD mom, a team with someone who lacks communication skills for ANY level of conflict.  But a team. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[Notwendy]

Wow, what a story, but first, I want to commend you because, I think you are an exceptional person and a true gift to your H and his children. I don't know if you realize the positive impact you have on their lives. As a daughter of a mother with BPD, I would have been immensely thrilled to have someone like you when I was a child.

One of my fears growing up was that, I was unlovable, and that nobody would ever love me. My mother used to even tell me that, and say that I was the cause of the problems between my parents. I would be willing to bet your H's kids feared that they caused their issues too, because kids can fear that. I used to be afraid that my friends would find out about my mother, and decide they didn't like me.

The other mothers of my friends, my father's relatives- they showed me unconditional love and even the small amount of time I spent with them had a huge impact. I also have some friends from childhood who saw her at her worst, and they are still my friends to this day. This is how strongly I value the people who cared about me as I was.

And you are a gift to your H, to be such a positive role model, accept his children, their mother without the drama that can come with that.

Many of us have difficult people in our lives- as parents, exes, children, and to love us means to accept us as we are. This doesn't mean accepting poor treatment, but if we marry someone who has children, then those children and the people connected to them are part of that person's life. It's a gift to love those children and to be kind to their parent(s). Kudos to you for being the loving person that you are.

[waverider]

Important factors here:

~It hasn't got you down and made you bitter and resentful

~You haven't been reactionary, stayed to your own path and most importantly been consistent

pwBPD bounce against everyone and blame everyone. Ultimately though they settle around those who are consistent, because they are ultimately reliable. Providing the stability they lack, and gradually realize they are not a threat

[DreamGirl]

I consider this to be a success too, ennie. 

Validation, boundaries, communication, and acceptance.

I'm very, very happy for you. 

[ennie]

Many of us have difficult people in our lives- as parents, exes, children, and to love us means to accept us as we are. This doesn't mean accepting poor treatment, but if we marry someone who has children, then those children and the people connected to them are part of that person's life. It's a gift to love those children and to be kind to their parent(s). Kudos to you for being the loving person that you are.

Thanks for this.  I find that so few people really get what it means to care about people or be compassionate, and that it does not mean not having boundaries or that each of us matters less.  It does not mean being extra careful not to upset the difficult person.  It means accepting that this person is okay, that I cannot control them, and accepting that their actions will impact me in ways that I do not like sometimes, and that just like any pain, being open to that without catering to it makes it hurt less. 

As a child, it is impossible to do this for a parent, I think.  We are so dependent on parents, and have not yet learned to see ourselves and our situation through others' eyes, just through our own.  I see with my stepdaughters that for them, it feels like a disaster if people know who their mom is.  But for me, she is just a person.  A person in pain, who causes pain, just like the rest of us.  I keep trying to help them know that being real about what is feels better. 

At any rate, how lovely that you had people in your life who could help put your mom into perspective for you, so that you can live with paradox and be at peace with the sometimes painful realties of living with other human beings.

[ennie]

I consider this to be a success too, ennie. 

Validation, boundaries, communication, and acceptance.

I'm very, very happy for you. 

Thanks, Sis!  The tragedy of being at peace with the BPD person in my life is that now I have to go back to dealing with my own problems.  Working hard, trying to figure out how to have the discipline to take care of myself when I work too much, the continual learning curve of parenting teens (even girls as awesome as my SDs take so much work!), finding time to connect with the husband I love, and so forth.  No drama.  But a lot of work!

[an0ught]

Hi ennie,

congratulations, yes it is a big success for you holding up your own way and now getting the compliments and seeing the gratitude of the kids  .

3) And, this is the biggee... .drumroll please... .we seem to now be in a situation where BPD mom is actually seeing this too.  We have had about 4 crises in the last year where she called to talk to me... .to apologize, to get my help before she flipped out at other parents of my SD's friends, to ask for support in a genuine way.  She has honestly, not in a victimizing-herself-for-sympathy way, but a real way, admitted that she really feels permanently messed up by things that happened to her as a child, and she sees that I deal with things better as a result.  So she wants me to help her.

It may be worth keeping perspective here. She is reaching out. She is stepping over boundaries that had been in place so long. This is happening at a time the kids will start having boundaries of their own and her relationship with them changes. Think about how you want your relationship with her be in the future and what boundaries you maintain and how now that she reaches out to you. Close relationships with pwBPD tend to be complicated. Don't get me wrong I don't want to discourage you to be open - this is the Improving board after all. But it is easier to prevent than recover from problems.

[ennie]

Hi ennie,

It may be worth keeping perspective here.

I do not think you have much to worry about here!  I have no desire to have a "close" relationship with BPD mom.  No matter how much she can trust and receive support in one moment from me, I do not receive that from her.  And I do not want to be close to someone that one-sided; even with my SDs, who I do more for than I ever would for an adult friend, I want reciprocity.

There is a difference between allowing her to depend on me in ways I know I can sustain, and depending on her back.  What I am saying is that I know I am dependable in certain ways.  I do not judge people for their lack of capacity, even if it limits how close I want to be to them.  I just believed, after 5 years with BPD mom in my life, that SHE would not ever know that I am dependable in that way, and that it would take a long time for the kids to see that, because mom spins all stories to mean that everyone hates her. 

What has changed is that 9 years in to this family, BPD mom is starting to see me, when she is not raging.  She is just noticing that I am still not judging her.  I am very clear about boundaries, and I think this is less scary for her.  We both considered me helping her in dealing with her mom's estate, but she was able to say she was scared I would learn things about her that would make her feel ashamed, and I let her know I would not hang out if she raged at me, and that I would probably not be able to go because of my lack of resources and work needs.  She heard that, I heard her, I did not go. 

For me, this is important because: 1) the kids are starting to see that mom has some areas where she is just not capable.  Colluding with that and making the world wrong, instead of accepting that mom is not capable of some things is harmful to them, and hard on us.  This allows them to make boundaries, and develop their OWN sense of how they feel about that--rather than loving her and hating everyone else, or hating her.  This is also terribly important for their own self-esteem, because they are like her in important ways.  To see that there are areas of their personalities where they will need to work hard not to cause lots of conflict, but that they are not bad or wrong for their complexities, is really the best I could hope for as a gift to pass along as a parent.  To help the kids to love themselves, and be honest and not shameful about their challenges, is really satisfying for any parent.

2) For me, I get the benefit of being validated by the kids, and BPDmom.  I have been willing to hold my ground--clear boundaries, with love--with NO validation from the people I am benefiting the most.  So this is really gratifying for me.  I do not count or depend upon it... .as my last post indicated, I have my ups and downs, and am willing to have BPD mom and SD15 hate me if need be for me to have boundaries.  And, I know that will pass.  It is not about me.  There is a way that with a BPD person, you have to rely so much on your own judgement because theirs is so horrifically unreliable, that there is a danger of developing some arrogance in that vacuum.  You know their judgement is wrong, so yours must be right.  BPD people provide such unreliable feedback, that until we are strong enough, I find it best just to ignore it.  That said, I also need that feedback to understand the impact of my actions.  To have absolute boundaries and not care how it impacts others is just cruel.  So for me, it is so amazing to get some authentic feedback.  To hear BPD mom being able to feel safe enough, just once in awhile, to say, "I am scared of you because you know so much about me, but I also know that through all of this, you do not judge me, even when you do not like what I am doing" means that what I am doing is also impactful for another person.  To hear the kids say, "You care about everyone's feelings, even when they are mean to you, including your own feelings" is so validating. 

That does not mean I will not make my own choices based on what is real to me to get that validation.  It means that trusting my own judgement ultimately benefits not only me, but them, too.  That is the best validation of all--not a validation of not having boundaries, but of being loving while having boundaries. 

DH, the kids, and I were talking about maybe having BPD mom over at some point to our house.  She has never been invited or allowed to be here because she is destructive, and it is my home too and I want to feel safe here.  I am able and willing to express that.  To say, "I would love to have your mom here, I care about her, but she can be very critical and I want to feel safe in my home, not criticized, so I am not sure I feel ready for that."  That is the freedom of having boundaries, and being loved and validated as a person with boundaries.  My family trusts me.  SD11 is not begging to have me invite mom here, and none of the kids take my boundaries to mean I hate their mom.  They are starting to get it. 

I think I would be open to her being here when I trust my own capacity to deal with the worst consequences of that visit.  When I am willing, for example, for a 16 year old child to move to her moms out of anger because mom paints our home and who we are black, and SD16 is too enmeshed to see that or resist it.  Right now, I am not there.  DH makes the custody choices, not me; but I am not ready for that fight.  I am too busy in my life.  I also, as SD15's mentor, want more chances to live with her and help her to learn to be her own person.  I want chances to talk to her about her feeling of shame, and how her mom's way of shaming herself and others makes that happen.  And how when she is a mom, she has the choice of using shame (like she does when she is mad at me), or being true to herself and not trying to make people do things by fear of her hatred, judgment, or shame. I want her to learn.  I cannot control that, but I can refuse to invite disaster.

So I feel clear about my own boundaries. They have just changed and grown as I am less fearful, and less likely to crumple because of someone else's shame and judgement.  As I told SD15 when she was terrified of her mom finding out about some typical teen mistake she made, when she told me she was terribly ashamed and afraid her mom would be mad:  "Your mom lives in a black and white world, where she and others are bad or good. That creates a ton of shame.  But those are just tools to try to manipulate you and her to be who she wants you and her to be.  It is just a game, it is not real.  No one is really bad or good, we just are.  You do not need those tools to make choices that feel good to you. That is just a game, just one game, and you do not have to play it." 

That is true for me.  There is no danger to me in receiving the love and validation of a person with BPD, because I am not playing that game.  I am not good because of that, or bad when she is raging at me.  But it is good feedback.  When she is lost in rage, it is not about me.  She is so triggered, I am invisible.  But when she is open to me, and says, "It hurt my feelings when you told SD15 I drink too much," that is good to know.  Feedback does not make me be different, it is just interesting stuff to note for future reference. 

The danger is that BPD is so fearful of judgement and black and white in her thinking, that when she trusts and loves me, she may expect me not to do things that hurt her, and may be really hurt and angry when I hurt her by saying things that are true for me.  That is really, truly, profoundly fine with me.  And I trust that it makes that process safer for me to be okay with her being hurt by me, because I have no need to insist that she like what I do.  She has her reasons, and I respect that they are good ones--she did not learn to trust because to trust her mom would have been profoundly unwise.  I do not need her to see me.  But if my heart stays open, when she DOES see me, it can feel good to me.  That is nice.  I do not think it is harmful.  It makes me more brave.