DH did mediation with ex, then got text

[kells76]

So they had the mediation appt the other day. They were able to agree on the day-to-day schedule plus some holidays, but not on vacation or housekeeping stuff.

Day to day would give DH a bit more time, plus actual 2-overnight weekends. DH wanted vacation time in week blocks or so; mom suggested 3-4 days instead.

Here's the twist -- mom in no way wanted to agree to this clause: "Parenting time schedule changes will be made by parents only". She insists that the kids "have a voice" or get their say or whatever.

Then, after mediation, DH gets this text from mom -- she's talked to the kids about the new schedule (that she & DH literally just discussed) and told him that SD9 is adamant about only wanting 1 overnight at a time, & sd7 is adamant that she won't spend the night without sd9.

So basically, Mom is "agreeing" to all this nice sounding stuff in mediation, but turns around and puts it on the kids, giving herself an out -- "Well, of course I support this, but the kids don't want to".

DH is frustrated -- he feels stuck, like if he pushes to enforce what he & Mom agreed on, he's the bad guy, just like Mom keeps describing him as to the kids. He doesn't want to play into that description.

He on the other hand feels like if he keeps asking the kids what they want, he's right back where he's been the last 4-5 years, which isn't healthy.

So -- he's willing to concede vacation down to 3-4 days at a time, if it means Mom will agree that parents make the PT decisions. If she won't go for it... .He's not sure yet what to do, and he really doesn't want to go to court.

He's thinking of trying to get something like this in the PP (sort of a "next best" thing given how Mom operates): something like "If the kids don't spend a night one weekend, it will be made up the next weekend". Sort of giving a way for him to be flexible with the kids but to get that time with them.

Thoughts on including that wording? Also, thoughts on the situation? Ways out of this stuck place for DH that maybe neither of us have seen? Ways for him to not be the bad guy, without continuing the unhealthy routine of having the kids make the decisions?

Thank you guys... .It's been a heck of a last few months.

[david]

I may way off but in my situation I believe my ex had our two boys under pressure to say what she wanted them to say. It put them in the middle and I refused to play along with that.

Eventually I was able to get a court order giving me 50/50. Anytime my ex tries something like saying the boys don't feel like coming over for whatever reason I simply replied that I would be picking the boys up at such and such a time following the court order. Our order permits the parents to change anything in our order provided both parents agree in an email exchange. Once those boundaries were established through the courts I followed them without compromise since the order gives us flexibility to change things.

I think a week for vacation makes more sense personally. Our summer schedule is week on/week off. However, I have agreed to two week vacations with ex because I thought it worked best for our boys.

Also, if ex wanted to change something and the boys brought up, without me asking, that they did not like the change I would listen to them. If they seemed to have good reason I would adjust my position with their mom and not include them in my discussion with her. I found out, in the beginning, that if I included them in my discussion they had hell to pay when they were with their mom.

When I have been in court I noticed that judges do not care for the kids making parenting decisions.

Since our order is 50/50 I agree to changes provided there is make up time to maintain the 50/50. My ex has actually made offers giving me more time. At first I pointed them out and offered to give her time somewhere else. For some reason, that led to attacks towards me. I suspect that she interpreted my email as an attack towards her because she didn't see the loss of time. After a few times I stopped doing that and just let it go.

My "communication" with my ex can be more challenging then anyone one else I have ever dealt with. Certain expressions/phrases I used to use would trigger her so I don't use them. I reword it and still say the same thing. That takes time to figure out. I still make mistakes but I am much better at it.

[kells76]

Hi David, thanks for writing back. Your story always gives me some hope. Sorry if you feel like you're constantly repeating yourself to me -- I guess sometimes I just keep asking the same question in different ways 

So did the boys' mom ever use the fact that there was a court order to blame you? To clarify, I think DH's worry is that Mom will spin this to the kids as "Everything was fine until DH just had to take this to a judge, so really he's making you do the visits". That Mom will be like "Oh, I was fine with the mediation result, but DH wasn't, so he was the one who made it go to court". If those worries make sense.

Yeah, I think DH really has to get that one boundary in the PP -- that schedule changes are made by the parents.

I guess one possibility is that he could differentiate to the kids between input & decisions; that of course he wants their input, it'll help him & Mom make a decision. Maybe that would be a way around? Anyone else dealt with kids thinking they "made the decision"?

And yeah, it seems likely that if DH tries to tell Mom what the kids tell him (they want to spend time with him or whatever), she'll use it against him/them somehow.

[bravhart1]

I want to start by saying, I totally get trying to stay out of court. It's exhausting, expensive and produces drama and stress for the whole family. Now having said that... .

I just want to point out a couple of things about your situation that seem off to me. First of all mom sat in mediation and in seemingly good faith made agreements. If she was going to just go home and undo it, why did she do it? Because she wants to "look" like she is cooperating, why does she care? Because she knows if she went to court she would lose this whole enchilada. I think dad is much more in a place of power than he knows.

Even my SD's BPDm mom who was ordered in therapy for alienation issues, as well as inappropriately talking to and not parenting SD in a acceptable way, got two weeks vacation every summer. She also had four overnights a month. She had no legal custody, and was admonished and warned by the judge numerous times to quit the game playing, she still had more time with a younger child than your DH has.

I know you said earlier( think it was you?) that husband had some rough childhood stuff? Seriously who cares? I say push the envelope. This woman is going to continue to dole out these children as she sees fit for years to come if you let this continue. And as those girls get to be teens, all bets are off. She will use the whole I can't make them thing, while she is promising them whatever they want so she "wins". Don't think even the best teens won't cash in on that ability to manipulate parents to gain freedom and what ever else they are trying to do.

I think you should stand her up. After all your money went toward the mediation too did it not, is DH's time not worth something? He's now ready to give away what little time he gets for vacation?

The courts are not going to dredge up Dh's past. She's basically blackmailing him with his kids.

Go get those girls, they need their dad, and it sounds like you are a very nice reasonable step mom.

Best of luck, with whatever you do. Just remember if you tell BPDm you aren't playing around anymore be willing to back it up, she will call your bluff at least once at first.

[Nope]

Bravhart makes some great points. A nine and a seven year old shouldn't be getting asked for their opinion. They are at an age and in a position to be easily manipulated by their mom. It's unfair and most courts would even find it inappropriate that she even discussed it with them beyond "You're dad and I worked it out and this is what we, the adults, decided is best."

Realistically, she is going to say what ever she is going to say to them. What DH needs to be able to say to them us that he and their mom could not agree on what was best, so they got some help from a professional to figure it out and this is what was decided. She can blame DH all day but ultimately it may end up in the hands of the court and the professionals know what's best. (And can also be blamed without damage to either parent's relationship.)

If it looks to DH like a court would give him a better deal that the BPD parent will then the best solution is to go to court. And the court will almost always give a better deal than a disordered co-parent. Typically the BPD parent will wait until the last minute before court to settle out of court. There just isn't enough pressure before then to cut through the entitled demands.

[Thunderstruck]

In our situation, uBPDbm constantly claims that SD10 "begs" her not to go to our house and is miserable with us. Of course, when we pick her up she's happy and we do fun things.

So either:

1) SD10 is saying these things because she knows it's what uBPDbm wants to hear

2) uBPDbm is gaslighting or just plain lying

3) ? I don't know, it wouldn't make sense to me that a child would cry and beg not to go and then be happy and excited to be there

uBPDbm tries to switch around the schedule a lot, and her excuses for doing so are usually "I have to work" or "SD10 wants to be with me". We first of all NEVER reduce our parenting time (more consistent contact counteracts all this alienation BS she is trying to pull) and second of all try to stick to the schedule as much as possible.

I think your DH is trying to be flexible with BPDmom, but the issue is going to be that he gets steamrolled. It's ok to stick to the schedule as agreed upon. If the kids whine, I would say to them "This is the schedule that mommy and daddy agreed upon". Then go do something fun together. They really are too young to be calling ANY shots here. Our judge specifically admonished uBPDbm who wanted to bring SD(then 9) into court to give her opinion on what she "wanted". The judge was like no way lady, this is up to the adults to work out. Judges know that kids can be manipulated by their parents, I'm sure they see it happen all the time. And that's a crummy game to play.

[david]

I live in PA. Our courts will listen to children when they turn 14 and must show a certain level of maturity. The children do not make decisions but will be listened to. I think most courts have a similar position.

I tend to repeat myself all the time. I am a high school math teacher and repetition is part of my nature. 

I have talked to our boys about the fact that mom and me disagree and when that happens we go to court and have someone else decide. We both present the facts and the judge determines what he/she thinks is best. If I had a mediation agreement in writing I would probably tell our boys that we had an agreement and mom changed her mind. I would want it in writing in case they wanted proof. I took the position early on that being honest with our kids was important. It was something that defined both parents. It also, over time, helped gain trust from them. They used to be very cautious of saying anything. They now come to me with problems etc and do not talk to their mom about anything. They know they can come to me and not be attacked for doing/saying something "wrong". Today I would not need proof for them because of the years of their mom lying to them and them figuring it out on their own.

When we were together one of my SS's came home clearly drunk. He was a junior in high school. Mom went ballistic on him and yelled for close to 20 minutes. I looked at him and he was just hearing loud noise and wanted to sleep it off. There was no communication from him at all. She grounded him for 6 months and sent him to his room. I sat there and listened to her "vent". I slowly and rather quietly mentioned that SS was an honors student, on student council, on the football team, never came home drunk before, had a job. I thought the punishment was too harsh because he would lose it all. I was then berated for about 10 minutes. I told a few stories of my high school days. That set her off even more. Never did that again. Same thing I believe our kids are doing with her. Two days later she was calm enough to say that perhaps 6 months was too long of a punishment and she changed her mind to several weekends. SS is now an nurse and currently going to school to be an anesthetist. We get along great and he has limited contact with his mom.

I rarely email ex with something either boy tells me. I did in the past and they payed the price. Not telling her was the only way I knew to protect them from her wrath.

[david]

Another thing to think about. Doing what is best for our kids doesn't show up immediately. Two of my SS's (31 and 29 now ) have talked to me about things that happened when they were pre teens and teens. The events they remember that were pivotal to their lives are not all the same events I thought were pivotal. They have thanked me numerous times about things I said or did for them growing up and how those things helped them become the persons they are now. They told me of times that I protected them from their mom, I had no idea until they told me, and how that helped them.

I think a lot of times we don't think about how much influence we actually have on our kids or step kids. Some of their stories I remember very differently as in I wasn't feeling very happy with them when they did what they did. It was how I handled it vs their mom that made the difference and that is how they described those times.

They opened up only in the last 5 or 6 years about this so this is fairly recent. They will call me for advice sometimes and we are close. We go on vacation together with the two younger boys. They don't do that with their mom.

[Panda39]

So either:

1) SD10 is saying these things because she knows it's what uBPDbm wants to hear

2) uBPDbm is gaslighting or just plain lying

3) ? I don't know, it wouldn't make sense to me that a child would cry and beg not to go and then be happy and excited to be there

I agree with the above.

I would also add

4)The kids might really want or partially want what mom wants too - my example would be when my SO's uBPDxw wanted to take the kids to a midnight movie on a school night.  The girls wanted to do it and their ":)isneyland" mom wanted to do it but it was irresponsible and not good for the girls. 

Their dad was the adult (had boundaries) and made the adult decision... .of course he was the bad guy for saying "No", his ex was an expert at putting him in double binds. 

My SO's ex also played the "girls want this or that" game... .blowing the FOG Machine    He initially struggled with it but eventually ignored it and made his decisions accordingly.

My SO's D15 and D19 like david's son's have both been burned by their mother and are very LC with her now.

Panda39

[sfbayjed]

She should not be discussing the custody arrangement with the kids at all.  That is bad.  My order clearly states that this is not to be done. I may be off here but I would take this very seriously and take a copy of the text and file a motion attaching that as evidence requesting that the ex not discuss custody arrangements with the Kids. In my county that is grounds for custody modification as it is emotionally damaging to the kids.

[livednlearned]

david and I have both lived with someone who has BPD.

It's not easy to assert your differences with someone who is BPD, and we're adults. People with BPD have a hard time with individuation, so when you act in ways that are contrary to what they want, it's a showdown.

Only to explain why a child would beg to not spend more time with dad -- they're trying to survive. They'll do anything to avoid the anger.

BPD mom will use the kids as extensions of herself for years to come, it makes it predictable and consistent to know this, although obviously not easy.

It's important to do what david said: keep repeating over and over that you're the parent, and parents make big decisions, not kids. And when mom and dad can't agree, there are lots of people who help, and this is something that adults are good at. Kids have a job, and that job is to be kids.

Don't waver, if you can.

[ForeverDad]

Every single member's response here, I agree with.

I want to start by saying, I totally get trying to stay out of court. It's exhausting, expensive and produces drama and stress for the whole family. Now having said that... .

I just want to point out a couple of things about your situation that seem off to me. First of all mom sat in mediation and in seemingly good faith made agreements. If she was going to just go home and undo it, why did she do it? Because she wants to "look" like she is cooperating, why does she care? Because she knows if she went to court she would lose this whole enchilada. I think dad is much more in a place of power than he knows.

Even my SD's BPDm mom who was ordered in therapy for alienation issues, as well as inappropriately talking to and not parenting SD in a acceptable way, got two weeks vacation every summer. She also had four overnights a month. She had no legal custody, and was admonished and warned by the judge numerous times to quit the game playing, she still had more time with a younger child than your DH has.

I know you said earlier( think it was you?) that husband had some rough childhood stuff? Seriously who cares? I say push the envelope. This woman is going to continue to dole out these children as she sees fit for years to come if you let this continue. And as those girls get to be teens, all bets are off. She will use the whole I can't make them thing, while she is promising them whatever they want so she "wins". Don't think even the best teens won't cash in on that ability to manipulate parents to gain freedom and what ever else they are trying to do.

I think you should stand her up. After all your money went toward the mediation too did it not, is DH's time not worth something? He's now ready to give away what little time he gets for vacation?

The courts are not going to dredge up Dh's past. She's basically blackmailing him with his kids.

Go get those girls, they need their dad, and it sounds like you are a very nice reasonable step mom.

Best of luck, with whatever you do. Just remember if you tell BPDm you aren't playing around anymore be willing to back it up, she will call your bluff at least once at first.

First of all mom sat in mediation and in seemingly good faith made agreements. If she was going to just go home and undo it, why did she do it? Because she wants to "look" like she is cooperating, why does she care? Because she knows if she went to court she would lose this whole enchilada. I think dad is much more in a place of power than he knows.

This woman is going to continue to dole out these children as she sees fit for years to come if you let this continue. And as those girls get to be teens, all bets are off. She will use the whole I can't make them thing, while she is promising them whatever they want so she "wins". Don't think even the best teens won't cash in on that ability to manipulate parents to gain freedom and what ever else they are trying to do.ad some rough childhood stuff? Seriously who cares? I say push the envelope.

Just remember if you tell BPDm you aren't playing around anymore be willing to back it up, she will call your bluff at least once at first.

In our situation, uBPDbm constantly claims that SD10 "begs" her not to go to our house and is miserable with us. Of course, when we pick her up she's happy and we do fun things.

So either:

1) SD10 is saying these things because she knows it's what uBPDbm wants to hear

2) uBPDbm is gaslighting or just plain lying

3) ? I don't know, it wouldn't make sense to me that a child would cry and beg not to go and then be happy and excited to be there

uBPDbm tries to switch around the schedule a lot, and her excuses for doing so are usually "I have to work" or "SD10 wants to be with me". We first of all NEVER reduce our parenting time (more consistent contact counteracts all this alienation BS she is trying to pull) and second of all try to stick to the schedule as much as possible.

I think your DH is trying to be flexible with BPDmom, but the issue is going to be that he gets steamrolled. It's ok VITAL to stick to the schedule as agreed upon. If the kids whine, I would say to them "This is the schedule that mommy and daddy agreed upon". Then go do something fun together. They really are too young to be calling ANY shots here. Our judge specifically admonished uBPDbm who wanted to bring SD(then 9) into court to give her opinion on what she "wanted". The judge was like no way lady, this is up to the adults to work out. Judges know that kids can be manipulated by their parents, I'm sure they see it happen all the time. And that's a crummy game to play.

I'm starting to quote everyone here.  So I better stop.  The consistent response has been, Ex is demanding and wheedling too much and he has been overly acquiescent.

My conclusion... .Dad will get far more from family court itself by exposing her quicksand "agree and then undermine" methods that give him no way to succeed.  Do you know how gambling establishments succeed?  They make House Rules that are in their favor.  No one can beat the house, not on its turf and by its rules.  Time to dump her house rules and get it done with a judge's decision.

Bluntly, no judge would lock him into such a poor settlement as she manipulates.  The bare minimum is 3-4 overnights per month.  I don't know what dads would agree to 3-4 day vacations only.  I've never even heard of half-week vacations.  (I've driven my son to the mountains, it's a two day trip.  If I was stuck with that I'd have to turn around and return immediately.  One time I tried to squeeze a mid-winter vacation to the beach into a week, my ex demanded part of that time and tried to shorten it so I'd have only one day at a beach.  This was described in court and made her look bad.)  My order reflects the county guideline, 1 week or 2 week vacations, to 3 weeks total per year.  No one, I mean no one, messes with that standard unless there is very good reason to limit it.  Is dad okay with the likely perception he's a problem parent who needs to be restricted?

Courts don't care that mediation failed.  Mediation fails all the time.  One reason is that it is typically attempted early in the court process and only works with reasonably normal parents.  It doesn't work for the HC cases.

Radical thinking here... .Dad should remind himself that whenever BioMother opens her mouth, she lying, retracting or pressuring or manipulating.  He should Radically Accept that the only way for fair (or less unfair) treatment is to get a judge to rule.  Asking for a judge to rule is not mean or bad or whatever.  In some cases that it all that works.  His is one of those cases.  Anything she agrees to would not be good for him.  Then, once he has a decent order, he should stick to it.  Firm boundaries.  No giving in to wheedling by manipulated SDs or his Ex to undermine a good order.

Edit:  He should not ask for just the bare minimum.  At a minimum, he should ask for what normally happens in cases where dad is not the primary parent.  Maybe more too, since courts can often issue orders somewhere in between what both parents seek.  For example, there's nothing wrong for him seeking equal time and substantial parenting.  After all, isn't that what a good and reasonable parent would do?  Especially if he knows his every step will be sabotaged as before?  This is not a time for timid Clark Kent.

[livednlearned]

If I remember correctly, the girls are super enmeshed with mom.

My SO's middle daughter and younger son were like this with their mom (who has BPD traits with something else, plus more alienation tactics in their situation than in mine, which was a lot). If SO took the approach to his custody situation that I took to mine, he would've lost his kids hearts/minds  :'(

I think the low-functioning/high-functioning axis does make a difference to threading the needle. Higher functioning can be trickier.

[kells76]

Thank you all for your thoughts... .Here's the latest.

DH felt super stuck, so we had an extra session with our counselor (who knows what's up with uBPDm). C gave DH the "come to Jesus" talk -- basically asking DH the hard questions. Does DH trust Mom? If he's ok with the kids opting out of time with him but making it up later, what's to stop a perpetual cycle of "making it up later"? Why is it that the agreement Mom proposed lets her voice be heard, and the kids' voices (aka more of Mom's voice), but not DH's? Would gettin a court order really mean that DH is the bad guy, or that the judge is the bad guy?

I think this was really important for DH to hear. He so wants to believe that this time, because things are going well with the kids, that Mom is turning a corner. But he agreed with C -- he doesn't trust Mom. C emphasized that if Mom turns the screws, the kids aren't strong enough to keep saying they want to see DH. C straight out said its crazy to put those decisions on the kids. Mostly C was referring to Mom, but I think he kind of meant for DH to see how crazy and unloving it would be for DH to play along.

So, long story short, DH wrote one more email to Mom, saying Look, we've made some progress so far, but we need to work out how schedule changes are decided, or we'll keep having this conflict.

I think he needs to feel like he really, really, really tried. But I hope that C's message hits home and DH gets that Mom won't change her manipulation and reinterpretation, like y'all have been saying for a long time  Really hoping. Will post more soon. Thank you so much once again.

[david]

Just to add some more to think about. In my situation I got 50/50 three years ago. That changed the dynamics in ex and she slowly changed her telling me what to do/controlling behaviors. Prior to that she acted as if she was the only parent and didn't need my input. After that she stopped acting that way so overtly. I noticed the change. It appeared to me like she felt like she lost. In a way I guess she did.

Occasionally I now get emails attacking me for undermining her authority and her motherly instincts. I don't reply to those kinds of emails.

Also, our youngest is now 12 and has begun asserting himself more. I think all these things are coming together and she views it as losing control.

[ForeverDad]

It's okay for him to try "one last time" but he needs to beware of the slippery slope of defaulting to "one more try" over and over ad nauseum.  (Why doesn't the spell checker recognize "ad nauseum"?)  Unfortunately trying to be reasonable sends a message of weakness to a controller.

My Ex was/is super possessive of 'her' child.  Here are some court highlights, by no means all that happened.  Son was 3 years old when we separated, 11 years old when our last order was issued.  It took 8 years to get a truly manageable order.  But it wasn't wasted effort because I would never ever have gotten as much as I did by begging and pleading with Ex.  Court is the Real Authority, yes it takes time since court is often reluctant to make drastic changes without solid basis, but odds are it will be "less bad" than what Ex demands.

11/2005 - We separated and she filed for her and child to have protection from me by blocking all parental contact.  Son was promptly removed from the petition by the magistrate but I was relegated to non-primary alternate weekend parent in the temp order.

02/2006 - Temp order was dismissed and then-separated spouse promptly blocked all parental contact for 3 months, not even allowing calls to our preschooler.  This time we went back to court for divorce I filed.  Mother wasn't admonished, Father didn't get any make up time and Father was reset again as non-primary alternate weekend parent in the divorce temp order.

06/2006 - Mediation was first step, it failed in the first of 3 ordered sessions.

02/2007 - Court's social worker's parenting investigation resulted in recommendation for equal parenting time.  Court did nothing and moved to the next step.

07/2007 - Custody Evaluation's initial report summarized, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can... .Mother should immediately lose temporary custody... ."  Court did nothing and moved to the next step.

01/2008 - Settlement for equal time mere minutes before Trial was to start.

03/2008 - Final Decree for equal time in Shared Parenting.

03/2011 - After getting Change of Circumstances, we agree to GAL's recommendation, Father got full legal custody, Mother kept equal time since GAL hoped she would behave better with Child Support.  Took 17 months.

12/2013 - Mother is admonished by court for 'disparaging' Father in son's presence.  (It should have stopped years before.  Courts expect some conflict during a divorce but can get peeved if conflict continues afterward.)  School also relates incidents with Mother at school activities.  Court grants Father majority time during the school year but gives Mother "one more try" by letting her keep equal time during the summers.  This also took about 17 months.

01/2015 - Mother rages at Father (again), threatens court (again), starts telling son he is 14 (no, not yet!) and son can decide when he is with Mother.   It. Never. Ends.  (But at least it can and will get better.)

In other words, if your DH's Ex has been consistently obstructive, then he should not expect that to ever change until Ex's perception of control and entitlement is significantly reduced.  In my case it wasn't until I had not just full legal custody but also majority time.  I still get push back, but it's been manageable the past couple years.  Since he's never had much time in family court and now the children are older, it's possible his Ex won't be as obstructive once court steps in and DH gets a solid order under his belt.  However, once the legal details are settled, she may shift more effort to manipulating the children.

[bravhart1]

Just wanted to touch on that whole "when you turn 14 you can decide thing".

BPDm had been telling SD7 when she turns 14 she can go live with mom full time and never see dad or bravhart again if that's what she wants

When this was mentioned to T, T said yes in normal situations, that MAY be true, but in a case with long standing history of alienation and BPD that the courts would NOT default for obvious reasons. The one main reason being that the child, at any age, may not be able or willing to stand up to a BPD parent and that if that worked, then at 14, every child of a BPD parent would/could be potentially ripped away from the OP, which would be a disaster in family court.

And BPD and teens tend to be MORE troublesome not less.