I feel confused. Not sure how to title this...

[C.Stein]

That I would be placed in her stable, in purgatory, until she was ready to give me a crumb.  It's a cycle that won't end until I decide to do it.

This is good LA.  You know J, you know she likes to keep people in "orbit".  You know J has feelings for you and you her.  Whatever her reasons for keeping you in orbit you should realize that a part of you wants to be kept in her orbit and more importantly you want to keep her in your orbit.  I think you are finally seeing this and how unhealthy it is for you.  I commend you for having the strength to do this.

[Learning Fast]

LA,

I've followed your story for some time and would agree with your decision to politely decline any invitation to meet.  I can't see much upside but can see a lot of potential downside (like the C. Stein "sack of potatoes" experience) or something unpredictable that could leave you with more questions than answers.

I think many of us have a firm intention in mind when we post about something of this nature that is driven more by our hearts than our heads.  The many "voice of reason" posts in this thread and others cause us to think with our heads and not our hearts toward the end of the thread.  This has happened with me several times and at the end of the thread I'm so thankful for all of the comments and counsel.  You're making a wise decision by declining to meet.

LF

[Lonely_Astro]

This is good LA.  You know J, you know she likes to keep people in "orbit".  You know J has feelings for you and you her.  Whatever her reasons for keeping you in orbit you should realize that a part of you wants to be kept in her orbit and more importantly you want to keep her in your orbit.  I think you are finally seeing this and how unhealthy it is for you.  I commend you for having the strength to do this.

Yes, Stein, this has been a process for me. It still is.  As you said, I care for J, I have feelings for her.  I want her in my orbit, even though the logical side of me knows that I shouldn't want that.  Emotionally, I want it for that small gleam of hope that DBT will work and all hasn't been in vain.  Of course, the academic side of me knows that DBT will take years to yield a result and that's if she does the work. In the mean time, it's business as usual in the r/s department.

As I have said many times, the logical/academic side of me knows being away from her is the best option.  The emotional side of me holds onto hope that she'll somehow accept me that I accept her.  I'm not getting into radical acceptance, that's not what I mean.  What I mean is that she says she wants to "be better" and claims that I have brought that.  Where the disconnect for me is, if that were true, then why can't we work?  I may not have put that in good enough terms as to what I'm trying to convey.

The end is this:  I wanted us to work (when that was finally an option). I tried my best to make that happen.  I had a good run with her (even if it wasn't always "good".  I will always have feelings for her.  There's a part of me that will always wonder if the new(est) guy will succeed where I've failed.  I'm struggling with the part of how I can mean so much and so little at the same time.  But, that's BPD, isn't it?  She loves and hates me (even though she has always maintained she's never hated me) all at once.

This has been an arduous journey for me.  It has been for you all as well and I thank you all for your support.  It's why I come here when I begin to struggle.  Relationships, especially these, are complicated.  More so when we add our own fears into the mix.  I know I often times sound like a broken record.  I don't want to do that anymore.  Her having Mr. Roses means I need to move on.  I mean really move on.  I need to feel the hurt and pain from all this and stop exposing myself to more.  Because that's all it is, isn't it?  More pain.  More sorrow.  More heartache.  

I need to realize that if J does love me, then she'll leave me alone.  If I truly love her like I feel like I do, then I need to leave her alone.  I did it 4 years ago, I can again.  

Thanks for writing, Stein

[thisworld]

What I mean is that she says she wants to "be better" and claims that I have brought that.  Where the disconnect for me is, if that were true, then why can't we work?  I may not have put that in good enough terms as to what I'm trying to convey.

Lonely_Astro  

This seems to be my soft spot, too. Not only emotionally; basically I have difficulty grasping this. I don't think I'll ever fully understand it. I can only expect to somehow formulate it and then get used to it. I mean, I came together with my ex due to some attraction. At one point, I was very attractive to him as a woman. Then he discovered other  aspects of my personality and I became an "angel", his most "meaningful" relationship where I didn't damage him the way other women did (this can be partially true, his previous partners seem to be disordered as well), where for the first time in his life he was "treated like a human" in a "non-abusive" environment, where someone "truly cared for him" and "inspired and encouraged him" to "get better". It's wonderful, yeah? You get attracted to this woman, chase her to be your girlfriend and then she also happens to be this wonderful personality. If I came across someone like this (based on his words you know), I'd love that person, appreciate their presence in my life and try not to lose them maybe. My ex abused me, emotionally cheated on me, is still trying to recycle me while blatantly doing naughty things with other women. I don't believe any of these words    result in what they would mean in my world. Same language, different universes. What should be a natural consequence of these words in my world just becomes a fallacy - jumping to conclusions- in relation to him. I went through all that stuff hearing these words. Maybe he lost his attraction because I didn't give him anguish - beneath the verbal level, I think that's what he actually desires.

Waverider here once clarified something for me: changing (or promising to change) because you need approval and changing (or promising to change) because of responsibility. They result in different behaviours. If my ex had a bit of responsibility - in the way I understand it- he would have changed nevertheless. He just changes a bit for approval  or acceptance and then goes back to his own self very quickly.

Would DBT change this? It may or it may not. Am I willing to take that risk to go through a lot of torment for something like 4-6 years fearing what would become of us if he dropped it and then maybe see that he didn't drop it but dropped me? No. I think this is about our boundaries actually. I like calling it my right to protect myself from future trauma. DBT doesn't guarantee that promiscuity or emotional affairs will lessen. Maybe my ex who lacks a sense of self will find or strengthen his self, thank me politely and gratefully for all my support and then say he wants to try something with someone else. This happens in the world of nons, too. I can take that risk with a non, I think a mentally disordered person with my ex's patterns - even if in treatment- is too high an emotional risk for me - and very tiring.

You mention J.'s DBT, but what are your boundaries in terms of your future? Is there anything that you would never get into or get into but come out immediately?

[Lonely_Astro]

Lonely_Astro  

This seems to be my soft spot, too. Not only emotionally; basically I have difficulty grasping this. I don't think I'll ever fully understand it. I can only expect to somehow formulate it and then get used to it. I mean, I came together with my ex due to some attraction. At one point, I was very attractive to him as a woman. Then he discovered other  aspects of my personality and I became an "angel", his most "meaningful" relationship where I didn't damage him the way other women did (this can be partially true, his previous partners seem to be disordered as well), where for the first time in his life he was "treated like a human" in a "non-abusive" environment, where someone "truly cared for him" and "inspired and encouraged him" to "get better". It's wonderful, yeah? You get attracted to this woman, chase her to be your girlfriend and then she also happens to be this wonderful personality. If I came across someone like this (based on his words you know), I'd love that person, appreciate their presence in my life and try not to lose them maybe. My ex abused me, emotionally cheated on me, is still trying to recycle me while blatantly doing naughty things with other women. I don't believe any of these words    result in what they would mean in my world. Same language, different universes. What should be a natural consequence of these words in my world just becomes a fallacy - jumping to conclusions- in relation to him. I went through all that stuff hearing these words. Maybe he lost his attraction because I didn't give him anguish - beneath the verbal level, I think that's what he actually desires.

Waverider here once clarified something for me: changing (or promising to change) because you need approval and changing (or promising to change) because of responsibility. They result in different behaviours. If my ex had a bit of responsibility - in the way I understand it- he would have changed nevertheless. He just changes a bit for approval  or acceptance and then goes back to his own self very quickly.

Would DBT change this? It may or it may not. Am I willing to take that risk to go through a lot of torment for something like 4-6 years fearing what would become of us if he dropped it and then maybe see that he didn't drop it but dropped me? No. I think this is about our boundaries actually. I like calling it my right to protect myself from future trauma. DBT doesn't guarantee that promiscuity or emotional affairs will lessen. Maybe my ex who lacks a sense of self will find or strengthen his self, thank me politely and gratefully for all my support and then say he wants to try something with someone else. This happens in the world of nons, too. I can take that risk with a non, I think a mentally disordered person with my ex's patterns - even if in treatment- is too high an emotional risk for me - and very tiring.

You mention J.'s DBT, but what are your boundaries in terms of your future? Is there anything that you would never get into or get into but come out immediately?

I think I understand what you mean, thisworld.  At some point, I don't doubt, I was attractive to J for the reasons you mentioned.  4 years ago when we were together, it was a different r/s.  There were a lot of words spoken between us but not really any actions.  It was because at that time, I was just another guy in her life (1 of 5, simultaneously, according to her).  J seems to have no issue with emotional affairs, but her "cheating" line seems to be physical sex from what I can gather... .though like everything else, that line is blurred.  I mention that because it'll play into what I'm getting into next.  We never slept together 4 years ago.

When we reconnected 3 years later, as I have said before, she seemed so much different.  She had grown so much, it seemed.  We talked candidly about the past and J said all the same things yours said about the way I had treated her then (like a human not an object, the "meaningfulness" of our r/s, etc) and how she had regretted what she had done to me and how she had had this great guy in her life, treated him like crap, and lost him.  She had told me that she had been through DBT (which was a lie, she claims she was confused by her T and thought she was going through DBT... .).  As I said, in the beginning (yes, I know... .it was a mask, honeymoon, whatever) she seemed so much different.  Add in that she had been diagnosed, she married (though claimed separated and divorcing because he was abusive - an independently verified fact, at least he was emotionally -), rumors about her stopped, and she just overall seemed in a totally different and totally better place in her life.  It was easy to buy into all of it.

Fast forward to the end of this past year and it was a lot like it had been 4 years ago.  It turns out she had lied to me a lot.  We started out as an affair and as it was pointed out in another thread, I had no 'rights' to hold J to any standard toward me because of that.  However, I disagree with that.  I feel she (and myself) had an even stricter standard because of our past and the fact of the affair.  J and I had discussed this, at length.  Granted when we started, I was under the impression she was leaving her husband, which turned out to not be the case later on, but I never concealed anything from her.  But, that's an entirely different topic.  By the end of 2015, I was readily available to J anytime she wanted and was by all intents and purposes, single and available to her.  For those wondering, J had told me around Jan of 2015 she had left M and filed for divorce.  Late Oct (after the discard started earlier that month) of 2015 is when M actually filed for the divorce (I happened to be in her department when she was served, btw).  Her divorce wasn't finalized until the end of Dec 2015.  As it would turn out, she had lied to me about leaving M, she would move in and out with him over the course of 2015, all the while having a full blown emotional/physical thing with me (all of this was unknown to me at the time).  I'm not shifting blame, I played a part in all this, but I did a lot of it under false pretenses.  Yes, I had an affair.  No, I don't see just because of that reason it gave J the right to lie to me, misdirect me, or generally treat me the way she did because of that.  Granted, I was the 'other guy' in the entire set up and didn't know it.  Had I, things would've been different.  In fact, I wanted them to be different from the onset, but was to weak to resist J.  But that's another topic.

She entered DBT (from the best I could tell, she went through great lengths to fake it, if she lied) in mid-sept of 2015.  At first, this was claimed because she had dated yet another guy (B) in July after we had a pretty big argument in late June (I also didn't attend a wedding with her around the same time, even though we were both still married at the time... .so frankly neither of us was in the position to go).  At the end of July when I found out about B, I exited.  The month of Aug we reconciled, though I shouldn't have in hindsight, and thats when she said she was going to DBT because she wanted to "get better" because of what she had done to me.  Keep in mind M is still in/out of the picture at this time, though unbeknownst to me (as far as I knew, they were still divorcing and the reason it hadn't been final was because of 'paperwork' being 'lost/misfiled' etc - I knew it was a lie, I just ignored it out of selfish hope it was a coincidence).  She entered DBT in mid-Sept (when she finally found a T that offered it).

September was a great month for us.  By the first of October, she was gone.  I tried to hold us together until December, when I found out she had been out "a couple of times" with a guy "friend", R.  At that point, the whole year of cloak-and-daggerness had weighed on me to much and I left, officially.  Frankly, we had been over since October, but as these things tend to do, we didn't officially end until the end of December.  During that last week, we talked very frankly about everything.  Thats when she admitted she had lied to me about M the entire year, said she still regrets B, and still said that R was nothing more than a "friend".  Whether the last two statements were true or not, I'll never really know, but given her pattern, they were attempts at "more than" and didn't pan out how she had wanted.  But, one of the most revealing things to that last week was that she had said she had been going to DBT for me.  So that she could "get better" for me.  For me, the key part to that was she was doing it for me not for her.  I can't see therapy being effective for anyone when they go in to placate someone.  She made several veiled comments about wanting to continue with a r/s during that time.  I had told her that I was to hurt from all the lies (a big thing we had talked about in the beginning) and the trust that had been broken from that.  It was somewhat ambiguous from me because I was torn between continuing or walking away myself.  At one point I had told her that as well, that I wasn't sure what to do.  If nothing else, I have always been 100% open and honest with J.  I've never concealed or lied to her about anything, ever.  Lies carry to much of a price and aren't worth it, especially with her.

January 2016 started out with us not talking for a couple of weeks, then we did for a few days (it was during this time that I found out she had "been on a couple of dates" with someone - not R she said - but nothing serious, as an allusion).  The talking broke down when there was a dozen red roses delivered to her desk and left out where I could see them (I know this because she knew I had to come in after hours that night and I had to walk by her desk.  The flowers had not been there earlier in the day and it was obvious they were left in a prominent spot) and we didn't speak for another couple of weeks.  I was hurt again because of that.  Then came this past Friday.  So, I think we are all up to speed on whats been going on.

As Stein has said, I have wanted her in my orbit as much as I have wanted to be in hers.  I have always been conflicted on continuing or not on an emotional level.  Logically/academically, I know that we aren't going to work.  We can't, because I would be in a r/s involving one person, not two.  One of us would always be moving/growing toward a goal and the other would only be pretending to do that (while cultivating other goals with other people).  That's the stark reality of being involved in a r/s with her.  BPD doesn't, on its face, make her a bad person.  She chooses that path. 

So moving forward in the future, I know have some very hard line boundaries for myself.  I am not going to get involved with J again.  The price of admission isn't worth it to myself.  I can silently wish her all the success I know she wants, but I don't have to be there to see her succeed (or fail, which is the most likely outcome).  J was my first and only affair.  I don't plan to ever get involved again in something like that.  It hurts to many people in the process.  I have been in therapy myself over the past several months.  I have been working on my own FOO issues that have led me to where I am today, which has helped.  No, my T doesn't agree with me being wishy washy with J.  My T has told me over and over I need to "forget the borderline" and move on.  My T has given me great advice, that I haven't followed.  They've supported me in my backsliding with her, but I'm sure they are tired of hearing about her.

Anyway, I am off to the office in just a little while.  Yay, Monday.

[C.Stein]

Fast forward to the end of this past year and it was a lot like it had been 4 years ago.  It turns out she had lied to me a lot.

This is unfortunately something that cannot be ignored nor can it be "fixed" by DBT.   If you need to radically accept something then it is this.  

When the lie comes easier than the truth and the person does it more or less unconsciously (at the time) then how can you build trust with that person?  I believe you know this and also know you cannot have a healthy relationship with someone you cannot trust.  If your mind is always asking you if J is lying, no matter how softly that voice may whisper inside, what will this do to you ... .to anyone?  Surely you could radically accept this but at what cost to you and the relationship?  Can you even call it a relationship or have true emotional intimacy if there is no trust?

When my ex admitted to deceiving me for a month or more it devastated me because I saw just how easily those lies came to her.  They came out of her mouth like the truth.  It shattered the trust I had placed in her and caused me to question everything that I had a gut instinct about but had given her the benefit of the doubt.  Even though I wasn't looking hard for her to lie after that when I noticed her doing it again, the subtle misleading deceptions, I realized this is ingrained within  her very character, an automated response to something she perceived as needing to be lied about.  It doesn't matter how small or insignificant the thing being lied about is, it is the underlying thought process (conscious or not) that matters.

This literally broke me as I was still hoping she might find a way to come around, to realize what she was doing and take responsibility for herself and her actions/consequences.  It was this recognition and realization on her part (without my guidance) that I desperately hoped for (and a part of me still does) but I know it will likely never come and she will never change.  The reason is because the most damaging lies are the ones she is telling herself.  

So the longer she ignored what she had done, the damage the she had caused, the more withdrawn and distant I became.  As time went on I found myself becoming bitter and even more withdrawn and distant.  This is not me nor who I want to be.  As a consequence to all this I wonder if I could ever be able to completely trust her even if I had another chance to.  The only thing I fear she has learned from all this is how to become a more accomplished liar, and she more or less said as much.  

Now I have been completely ghosted, deleted, trashed like I never existed.  I literally have no reason to still feel attached to her yet I cannot seem to find a way to detach completely.  In spite of how profoundly she has hurt and damaged me a part of me still wants to believe in the person I fell in love with.  That this side of her can rise to the surface and stay there with few to no incursions from the most damaging parts of her "dark side".  There is so much good within her, so much there to really love and cherish, but when the bad parts come to the surface it cuts so deep the good starts to become tainted as does your belief in that good.  

Even if she finally does go and get tested for BPD, assuming she is suffering from it, and gets treatment I question just how successful it will be for a BPD waif (she is primarily a waif like J).  I can certainly see how DBT could be successful with the more extreme cases (raging, physical abuse, etc... .) but with the internalizing waif I have serious doubts (not based on any scientific evidence just my gut and intuition).

So in some ways I am going through much the same process as what you are going through with J except in your case it is 100 times more difficult.  You want so much to believe in the good within her, to hold onto the good and the hope it could prevail, but the bad parts are just to damaging to ignore and/or radically accept.  What I think we both need to "radically accept" is our ex's will almost certainly never be capable of being in a healthy trusting relationship.  The lying is so completely ingrained within their core character it can never be totally eradicated or even managed successfully.  

[Lonely_Astro]

So in some ways I am going through much the same process as what you are going through with J except in your case it is 100 times more difficult.  You want so much to believe in the good within her, to hold onto the good and the hope it could prevail, but the bad parts are just to damaging to ignore and/or radically accept.  What I think we both need to "radically accept" is our ex's will almost certainly never be capable of being in a healthy trusting relationship.  The lying is so completely ingrained within their core character it can never be totally eradicated or even managed successfully.  

Yes, I want(ed) to believe that the good in her would prevail.  While I understand she is both 'good' and 'bad' (like normal people), I had hoped for far to long that because she kept telling me she wanted to "be better" or was 'better', that I believed she would be... .at some point.  As I said, reconnecting with her 3 years later she did seem to be just that: 'better'.  It turns out that was, in reality, a lie.  She was better at something: lying.  At least for awhile.  I mean, as of Friday, she was still lying wasn't she?  I don't think she was lying, directly, to me about her feelings toward me but I do think she was lying to herself about the motivation of telling me those things.  After all, why would you say those things to someone if you had no desire to be with them?  What I mean is she made it sound like I was this great person and love in her life, yet she has made it clear "we can't be together".  Whether she believes that she can't because she's 'bad' (or has treated me wrong, or whatever else) and therefore unworthy of me or because she really is that manipulative, I don't know.

As you said, I will always have that doubt.  I would always be looking for that lie, even if she started suddenly telling the truth.  She had said that in our last week, that "matter how much good" she did, I would always doubt.  Even though trust could be rebuilt, it would take time and she's not willing to do that because she feels that I would be 'controlling' her.  It's funny, she said that about M.  She said that he always kept her on a timer and left long lists of things for her to do while he was at work (he worked overnight).  She said she felt so controlled, but I also see why he did that: he didn't trust her.  Of course, he had no reason to, just as I didn't.

For those that are wondering how my day went, I didn't speak to her.  She never reached out and neither did I.  I did pass by her desk once.  I simply waved at her as I did.  She smiled and waved back... .and promptly went back to her messing with her phone.  Previous to that, she had passed by my office door a couple of times.  She scurried past quickly (and luckily I had people in my office both times), but I could see her cut her eyes over to me.  It probably meant nothing, but I presume it was just one of those things like "hey, look at me for a minute and make me feel good".  Like I said, probably not true, but who knows.

As I said, it's time for me to move on.  I mean really move on.  I owe it to myself to do so.

[Lonely_Astro]

Well, here's an update: 

She contacted me today via text.  We had a brief discussion, which was bizarre to me.   To give you the nuts and bolts of it, I told her to leave me alone.  I did this because it's in my best interest.  This thread and my thoughts over the weekend brought me a new sense of clarity.  I'm done messing around with her, I'm moving on.  I've been used, abused, and mistreated enough.

The conversation wasn't pleasant.  I was aggressive with her.  Not quite a bull in a china shop, but I made a hard stance and stuck to it.  I don't need her or the problems that come attached to her.  At the end, I told her to enjoy her new life with her boyfriend.  Frankly, I don't care if I 'hurt' her by saying it or not.  I'm done being orbited by her. She didn't want me and that's final.  Why should I accept scraps from her?  Who does she think she is to treat me like that? 

Thank you all for talking me off the edge of the cliff. 

[C.Stein]

Good move LA.  I have to ask though, is there a part of you that thinks this hard line stance will do the exact thing you say you don't want?

[Lonely_Astro]

Good move LA.  I have to ask though, is there a part of you that thinks this hard line stance will do the exact thing you say you don't want?

You mean knock her out of my orbit and I hers?  I hope so.  I'm done being a lap dog.  I deserve better, as the rest of us here do, and I'm not going to get better by hanging onto even a sliver of her.  Letting go hurts like hell but sticking around hurts more.  As I said before, if she 'loves' me like she claims maybe one day she'll understand.   I mean, what's the point of us continuing any interaction?  Nothing good would come of it. 

I will miss her.  I'm not pretending I won't.  But, I'm tired of my feelings in all this being ignored.  Really, her and I were having circular discussions where she was allowed to dig at me.  I always ended up feeling worse afterward and I'm done with that.  She has her life, whatever kind of life it is, and I have mine.  I'll "get better" where she actually won't.  There was little point and keep going, she was still using me.  Let her figure it out, it's not my problem anymore.

[C.Stein]

This is good LA.  Being a lapdog is not a good place to be.  What I am getting at here is trying to determine if there is a part of you that believes the hard line stance will cause her to "see the light" and effectively draw her back into your orbit?  Just trying to ferret out any latent stuff here.

[cosmonaut]

I need to realize that if J does love me, then she'll leave me alone.  If I truly love her like I feel like I do, then I need to leave her alone.

This is a very wise insight, LA.  Sometimes love does require sacrifice and it is the darkest of times that most truly test our love.  Love is easy when times are great, but it's when we have nothing left to gain - indeed when it may cost us terribly - that our love is most proved.  This is the realm of true love.

Letting go can be an act of tremendous love.  Like it or not, we have become triggers for our exes, and that is something very hard to accept.  We never intended that, of course, and neither did our partner.  This is just one vicious aspect of a devastating disorder.  We can't be the soothing presence anymore.  We are a trigger.  And in order to cope with that, our ex needs emotional distance.  By intruding upon this, we are only causing our ex more pain.  If we truly love our ex and we truly care about their well being, the best thing we can do in this situation is to let them go.  Let go with love.

[Lonely_Astro]

This is good LA.  Being a lapdog is not a good place to be.  What I am getting at here is trying to determine if there is a part of you that believes the hard line stance will cause her to "see the light" and effectively draw her back into your orbit?  Just trying to ferret out any latent stuff here.

Oh, no.  I neither see that as the case nor do I want it to be.  It takes two to tango and I don't plan to dance with her anymore.  As I said, I will miss her.  She was special to me, even if she didn't believe that.  It's time I let her go with love and compassion.  It's time I let her go for my own love and compassion.

Our story was much like The Cowboy and The Rattlesnake.  I knew she was a rattlesnake, so why should I be surprised when she bit me (and she did bite me)?  Even our last conversation was ridiculous.

So, no Stein, I'm not trying to bring her back with this stance.  I do want her to leave me be.  I can't put her ghost to rest with her orbiting me and me her.  I grasp this concept now, when I didn't before. 

Let her go hug the truck.

[Anez]

That's good stuff, Astro. The Cowboy/Rattlesnake reference works well for my situation, too.

Glad you're seeing things the way you are ... .more power to you!

[Lonely_Astro]

That's good stuff, Astro. The Cowboy/Rattlesnake reference works well for my situation, too.

Glad you're seeing things the way you are ... .more power to you!

Thanks, Anez.  There was something about this discussion, my thoughts on it over the weekend, and then the past couple of days that made me get to where I am.  I do hope she finds solace in Mr. Roses, I do. But, really, there was no point in staying in contact.  All we were doing was feeding each other and it was hurting us both.  Once again, we had two different motivations for talking.  It's a never ending cycle until one of us decided to end it.  I made that decision.

Basically, she reached out today to "see if I was doing ok".  It just rubbed me wrong.  I mean, she knows I'm not.  So, what's she going to do about it?  Nothing, that's what.  Once again it was about her, not me. I had decided by Monday I wasn't going to have anything else to do with her.  She's well aware of that now.

Like I said, let her go hug the truck.

[C.Stein]

Well LA, at least she cares somewhat, so there is that.  My ex couldn't care less about me.  I can't decide which is the worse situation to be in.

[Lonely_Astro]

Well LA, at least she cares somewhat, so there is that.  My ex couldn't care less about me.  I can't decide which is the worse situation to be in.

Well, not really.  She appears to care, but it's just an appearance.  What I mean is that she was asking in what appeared to be an innocent way, but it wasn't innocent nor was it for my benefit.  What I mean is she was checking to see if she still had some control on my emotions and thus supplying her.  After all, she knows how I feel and what I'm going through yet she's moved on to a new r/s.  So what's the point of asking "am I ok"?  No, I'm not, so what are you going to do about it?  Why bother asking if you're going to remain the problem and not be part of the solution?

I'm not saying I need her to get better, what I'm saying is there's no point in me telling her how I'm feeling because it's pointless.  Either it makes her feel more like crap or she was getting "high" off my torment.  Either way, it's pretty screwed up.  Plus, all it did was force me to ruminate on our failure and wouldn't allow me to close the wound up.  Keeping her around was hurting me.  Im tired of my feelings/desires/wants/needs being ignored.  I don't care how she feels or what she's "been through", I've been through just as much as she has.  I didn't bring our end to us, she did.  I tried my damndest to work with her, it was pointless in the end.  I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and continue to be abused by a mentally ill person in the name of love.  If that's selfish, than I'm going to be for awhile. 

Yes, I am angry.  I'm angry at her that she's still playing me or at the very least trying to.  She's been toying with my emotions all the while moving on with Roses (while telling me she's "having a hard time too".  F that.  Let him have 'her' (whatever version of her she is with him).  Maybe he'll succeed where I failed, but I doubt it.  Look at what she's already done to him.  Do you really think I'm the only one she wanted to keep around?  She's a rattlesnake.

Let her hug the truck.

[Learning Fast]

Hi LA,

Great decision---nice work.  I've followed your story since inception as it parallels mine in many ways.  It's liberating when you have that light bulb moment and develop the resolve to move forward with your life---not hers.  Congrats!

We all have breaking points where "enough is enough".  Your's were the roses, the truck and the self-servicing "see if you're doing ok" text.  Mine were no acknowledgment of my Happy Holidays text, however, she was able to text the following week from the same location where we had one of our best weekends (she was obviously there with someone else). Finally, no TY for helping her daughter with complex physics project (our daughters are best friends and this is my only remaining tie to her).

I've been NC for six weeks after sending my final high-road and thankful goodbye text.  It was hard not to lash out but I recognize that she is disordered and figured it was something that I would later regret.  I don't plan to reach out and am hoping that she doesn't either.  As much as we've become triggers for them they have also become triggers for us.

The first couple weeks were hard but the past week has been much better.  A month ago I'd pass by the Valentine's stuff at the store and become sentimental and whimsical.  Today---same store, same stuff and I really didn't feel anything.

You'll find that as time goes on you will fill your days and nights with other activities and interests that will help keep J out of your heart and head.  I read this many times in various posts and was doubtful---but they were right and it does work that way!

Best of luck and keep posting,

LF

[Lonely_Astro]

Hi LA,

Great decision---nice work.  I've followed your story since inception as it parallels mine in many ways.  It's liberating when you have that light bulb moment and develop the resolve to move forward with your life---not hers.  Congrats!

We all have breaking points where "enough is enough".  Your's were the roses, the truck and the self-servicing "see if you're doing ok" text.  Mine were no acknowledgment of my Happy Holidays text, however, she was able to text the following week from the same location where we had one of our best weekends (she was obviously there with someone else). Finally, no TY for helping her daughter with complex physics project (our daughters are best friends and this is my only remaining tie to her).

I've been NC for six weeks after sending my final high-road and thankful goodbye text.  It was hard not to lash out but I recognize that she is disordered and figured it was something that I would later regret.  I don't plan to reach out and am hoping that she doesn't either.  As much as we've become triggers for them they have also become triggers for us.

The first couple weeks were hard but the past week has been much better.  A month ago I'd pass by the Valentine's stuff at the store and become sentimental and whimsical.  Today---same store, same stuff and I really didn't feel anything.

You'll find that as time goes on you will fill your days and nights with other activities and interests that will help keep J out of your heart and head.  I read this many times in various posts and was doubtful---but they were right and it does work that way!

Best of luck and keep posting,

LF

Thanks, LF.  I had determined I was going to politely decline if she had contacted me Monday.  When she didn't, I breathed a small sigh of relief, wasn't surprised she didn't, and moved slightly forward.  Then, out of the blue, she sent me a 'feeler' text saying that she "didn't know what to say" so she would say "this, I hope you have a good day!"  I thought about not taking the bait, but I simply replied with "thank you".  Her response to that was "ok."  It rubbed me wrong and went from there.  The end result was she said to me that she was "sorry about asking" about me and she "won't try to speak again."  Not like she had said much, anyway, other than "ok" and "sorry I bothered you".  It made me feel like she felt she had been doing me a favor this whole time or something by talking to me.  My reply to that was that I thought that would be best and to enjoy her new life with her new boyfriend.  After that, I had to see her a couple of times in passing.  She gave me the 'go to hell' look each time.  Literally it was like a tantrum.  She is an inward rage type, so I'm sure she was raging. 

Let her cry it out to her boyfriend.  I still don't see what the endgame for her was, other than she got the thrill of seeing me hurt.  That's pretty sadistic.  Plus, what was the point of me telling her anything else about how I feel?  She's well aware of it, but she has a new guy, so I don't matter.  Then she has the audacity to confuse me with that mumbo jumbo Friday about her missing "all of me" and whatnot, only to ignore me for almost a week (granted I didn't reach out, but you know what I mean), and then want to see if I'm "doing ok" (after the last conversation we had you could tell I wasn't).  And you follow that up with "I won't try to speak again" (punishment for standing up to her).  Good.  What the heck ever.

I'm an adult with real responsibilities, emotions, desires, and (gasp!) feelings.  If you can't handle that, get out of the way so the big boys/girls can talk, go sit in a corner somewhere, and pout. 

[Learning Fast]

 Not like she had said much, anyway, other than "ok" and "sorry I bothered you".  It made me feel like she felt she had been doing me a favor this whole time or something by talking to me.



LA,

Same impression I got from my ex except she hadn't asked anything about me for months.  Not even a "How are you?" or "What have you been doing?".  Any contact since about November was all about her so the last three incidents were my "enough is enough".

Her response to my good-bye text---"I've been done for months".

I keep trying to remember that in these situations we are adults attempting to relate to those who are toddlers emotionally.  J's and my ex's recent behavior resembles something that would be expected out of a toddler/youngster.

LF

[Lonely_Astro]

Not like she had said much, anyway, other than "ok" and "sorry I bothered you".  It made me feel like she felt she had been doing me a favor this whole time or something by talking to me.



LA,

Same impression I got from my ex except she hadn't asked anything about me for months.  Not even a "How are you?" or "What have you been doing?".  Any contact since about November was all about her so the last three incidents were my "enough is enough".

Her response to my good-bye text---"I've been done for months".

I keep trying to remember that in these situations we are adults attempting to relate to those who are toddlers emotionally.  J's and my ex's recent behavior resembles something that would be expected out of a toddler/youngster.

LF

Ah, as if the punches don't keep coming... .

I found out today who my replacement is (a co-worker of ours).  They've apparently been head over heels with each other since December.  They are waaayyy deeper than I thought from what I've been told.  The person who told me doesn't know about J and I (they've been out of work on a medical thing for most of the past year).  So, yeah, there's that.

Still pretty unbelievable that she's saying what she has to me and yet spending every waking moment with this guy.  He apparently cooks her breakfast every morning and dinner every night.  They're making plans to go to AZ in a couple of months.  What I hear though is someone taking care of her and not much in terms of it being a mutual loving r/s. 

Still.  Pretty F'ed up.

[cosmonaut]

I'm sorry, LA.  That hurts so much.  I'm sure you are seeing the pattern, though.  This is BPD.  The honeymoon stage is perfect and that is where she is at with the new guy.  He probably thinks this is all completely real and that he's won the lottery in life.  She probably does too.  We can understand, even as we realize the relationship is headed for a hurricane.

It is a betrayal.  There's no question that the behavior is deplorable.  We just have to try and understand as best we can that this is the result of a very serious disorder.  And we can try to be as compassionate and understanding as we can, even as we acknowledge how much this has hurt us.  Even traumatized us.

It's ok to be angry.  Anger is part of the grieving process and we have suffered a very real loss.  We have lost someone we love.

Hang in there, and I'm really sorry you're going through this.  It hurts like hell.

[Jonathan Ricciardi]

All I read on here again is one has to accept this behavior, call her out.  Get in as many hurtful words in as you can, if you don't , you'll regret it!

[cosmonaut]

All I read on here again is one has to accept this behavior, call her out.  Get in as many hurtful words in as you can, if you don't , you'll regret it!

I think you may have a misconception of the purpose of the site.  bpdfamily is a place to support one another in difficult relationships involving BPD, or in healing and detaching from such a relationship.  We aren't a site to bash people with BPD.  We seek to understand BPD in a clincial, holistic way.  And we seek to learn about ourselves and our role in the relationship.  We all had a role and we were all willing participants in the relationship.  Let's look into that and why we did so.

It's been 3 years?  Do you think it might be time to start letting go?  We can help you with that.

[C.Stein]

Get in as many hurtful words in as you can

What purpose does that serve other than lowering yourself to the emotional maturity level of a self-entitled child?

[Jonathan Ricciardi]

I have let go, I'm here to let people know, they don't need to walk down the road I did.  You should tell your BPD every thing that you feel, their plan is to exit and give you the silent treatment, get yours words in fast.  C.Stein what you say maybe true, but remember we got involved with a self-entitled child.

[Anez]

Man, this stinks, Astro. I'm really sorry you're going through this and now finding out this horrible news.

J is a mess. I know it hurts and hurts deep and there's nothing we can really say to help with that. Just know we all feel for you. Nobody should have to experience this.

J is the worst. the absolute worst.

[Lonely_Astro]

I'm sorry, LA.  That hurts so much.  I'm sure you are seeing the pattern, though.  This is BPD.  The honeymoon stage is perfect and that is where she is at with the new guy.  He probably thinks this is all completely real and that he's won the lottery in life.  She probably does too.  We can understand, even as we realize the relationship is headed for a hurricane.

It is a betrayal.  There's no question that the behavior is deplorable.  We just have to try and understand as best we can that this is the result of a very serious disorder.  And we can try to be as compassionate and understanding as we can, even as we acknowledge how much this has hurt us.  Even traumatized us.

It's ok to be angry.  Anger is part of the grieving process and we have suffered a very real loss.  We have lost someone we love.

Hang in there, and I'm really sorry you're going through this.  It hurts like hell.

It's definitely the pattern and I can see it.  She saw me right after I had the news and I didn't hide my emotions well enough, she instantly asked what was wrong.  At first, I resisted, but then I gave into the dark side and let it out.  She than proceeded to tell me all about how he knows we've been talking, she's told him her past and that included me, has no secrets from him, he has access to her phone whenever he wants it, etc etc.  She claims she told him about us meeting.  Supposedly he's fine with that.  This poor guy doesn't stand a chance.

At the end, I told her thanks for speaking to me and that I hoped she took care of herself and him.  She than sent me this text: "I want to be a friend to you. You were my best friend I told him that as well."  I didn't respond, nor am I going to.

The whole things been F'ed up.  Especially with what I told her last Friday.  Completely unfair to me.

[Turkish]

This topic has reached its post limit. Please feel free to start a new topic to continue the decision if needed.