Improving board posts being moved to the Undecided board

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

 

MaybeSo,

Thanks for the insight.

I can see a similar pattern playing out in my r/s.  I've become a lot healthier, I believe I have good, solid, healthy boundaries.  What I believe my wife is "telling" me is that she doesn't like the new me.  Has been complaining about it for a while.

For a while she sort of went along with it (got better).

I do PM some members and appreciate the PMs I have received back.  Every once in a while I will make a post over there.  I'm sort of self limiting my own postings to others threads right now because I have a lot on my plate,

I do still feel that staying is my "home" and where my heart is.  Hope to be back there someday.

FF

[formflier]

 

MaybeSo,

Thanks for the insight.

I can see a similar pattern playing out in my r/s.  I've become a lot healthier, I believe I have good, solid, healthy boundaries.  What I believe my wife is "telling" me is that she doesn't like the new me.  Has been complaining about it for a while.

For a while she sort of went along with it (got better).

I do PM some members and appreciate the PMs I have received back.  Every once in a while I will make a post over there.  I'm sort of self limiting my own postings to others threads right now because I have a lot on my plate,

I do still feel that staying is my "home" and where my heart is.  Hope to be back there someday.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I too have been upset when some of my threads were moved from Staying to Undecided. Until I understood recently the criteria for the different boards, I felt like someone else was making an evaluation of my relationship, whereas I've never had any intention of leaving, other than in flights of fantasy.

What occurred to me lately was the threads that were moved had a theme where I was complaining and venting about my husband, playing the victim, without trying strategies to make things better. If I continue upon that path, it is likely that I really will be in the Undecided camp.

So thanks, moderators, for showing me this. 

[waverider]

Often after a crisis and with hindsight it is much easier to post againoin Staying/Improving board as your own opinions are more centered and objective.

When its all crashing down around you and your attention is on survival and consolidating who YOU are and where YOU are at, rather then building the RS then your eyes are not really focused on the Improving the RS tone of the board, and you are probably too involved to realize it... If this is happening to your threads take it as a  that this is what is happening. Its not one frustrated post that instigates this move it is the trending tone.

To new members seeing senior members posting in such a pessimistic light it can cause them to give up before they have even started ("if their RS is still a crock what chance mine?"  etc)

The double abandonment perception is understandable though.

[unicorn2014]

I actually voluntarily moved from the staying board to the deciding board when I found out my partner's divorce hadn't been filed. I'm not moving back over there until I see a divorce case. I'm committed to staying in the relationship however that is dependent on how long I can wait for his divorce to be filed. At this point it is his wife that is holding up the show, however that doesn't change the effect it has on me.

[MaybeSo]

To new members seeing senior members posting in such a pessimistic light it can cause them to give up before they have even started ("if their RS is still a crock what chance mine?"  etc)

the flip side... .

is it wise to move the real life struggles of a senior person from the eyes of newer folks in similar settings?  

are we trying to sweep reality under the rug?

the reality is, senior members sometimes aren't able to stay.   we can't control how a newer person might interpret that reality... .and it's not like we ever have a mass exodus of staying seniors all posting about a crash and burn all at the same time... .but it does in reality happen that senior members sometimes have to leave.   new people may be following the member to other boards anyway.  i think if the tone remains respectful and isnt going into black/white thinking or bashing... .it could potentially be helpful and prudent for it to stay longer in staying.  In my case it seemed more cut and dry... .if I'm moving I'm not staying so I was bumped.  That was several years ago... .it may be different today.  We have some inbetween boards today that we didn't when I moved out.

A senior member who is choosing to leave b/c the hostility in the home goes on unabated and decent boundaries continue to be ignored... .is something that might be educational for a newbie to see. Boundaries in action sometimes necessitate leaving. When we take care of our boundaries, that sometimes means leaving.  Not always, but sometimes.  It's not such a bad thing for a newbie to see that reality play out for some senior members w/out cutting them off the staying board mid-crises.

Maybe what you are saying is... .it depends on the tone... .?

I remember when I was moved, I was really agonizing and conflcted but I was not bashing ... .I even was struggling about if my choice to move was me engaging in b/w thinking... .and senior members encouraged me under the circumstances to realize that in a crises, we all do need to make hard decisions that we might otherwise not make. Black/White thinking  (emergency thinking) was wired into humans to assist us in a crises.  It's not always a bad thing.  It's only "bad" eg., dysfunctional when it's the only tool we have in our tool belt.

[formflier]

 

Boundaries do come at a cost and we are not always aware of exactly what those costs will be.

My wife is pushing to get us back into counseling and in her more dysregulated moments she will say it's 100% to fix me.  In other times she allows that she may have a thing or two that needs some tweaking.  So, there is hope and I can certainly hunker down for a while to let some time elapse and see if there is any serious effort to address stuff on "her side" of the dynamic.

At some point I will need to make a more detailed list of the hill(s) that I will let the r/s die on.  That's not my purpose (to off the r/s), but what I should be purposeful about is clarifying my values and the type of r/s that I can offer to my wife.  I want to offer that to her and let her know I want her to come along with me but also offer understanding if she chooses something else.

I understand that if we stay together that (at best) we will still have a rather eccentric r/s and that issues will come and go, many will probably be handled badly.  Look, nons will get ticked off and have it last for a few days.  I'm sure that will still happen if we stick together.

What I'm not going to have any part of, is a long term campaign to smear my character, alienate my kids, repeatedly demonstrate abusive behavior to and in front of the kids, and involve multiple other family members (her FOO) in the process.

Sure, I can be a clever guy and come out with some tactical victories here and there in that environment, but strategically thinking, I am just not going to be in that environment.

Back to boundaries and values:  I am very grateful that senior members "slowed me down" on my first boundary and educated me to not go back on setting it, once I set it.  Taking back my email and phone (keeping her out) was a hum dinger.  But it played out just as predicted.  Now she acts like it is no big deal, but will snoop when I am lazy and don't lock the laptop.

Perhaps "hard" is the only lesson newbies need to learn.  And maybe now the "potential cost" of boundaries is the appropriate lesson for me to be learning.  But at some point we should all face that and decide for ourselves how precious our boundaries (and person-hood) really is.

Keep the thread going, I'm liking the discussion.

FF

[waverider]

To new members seeing senior members posting in such a pessimistic light it can cause them to give up before they have even started ("if their RS is still a crock what chance mine?"  etc)

the flip side... .

is it wise to move the real life struggles of a senior person from the eyes of newer folks in similar settings?  

are we trying to sweep reality under the rug?

the reality is, senior members sometimes aren't able to stay.   we can't control how a newer person might interpret that reality... .and it's not like we ever have a mass exodus of staying seniors all posting about a crash and burn all at the same time... .but it does in reality happen that senior members sometimes have to leave.  

Its about maintaining a balance on the board. Yes, many senior members leave as a result of what they have learned here. That is not failure, that is them finding their direction after reaching a balanced state for them. In the meantime there is ebb and flow.

Posts are only moved when the balance of the board starts to be overly weighted towards lack of growth. Its not really determined soley by tone of a member but about the effect it has on the tone of the board as whole. The "pile on" effect if you like. This starts to have a subconscious effect on those who otherwise are not at that same state of their RS. Having a few high volume posters going though the same thing at the same time, and it no longer feels like the hopeful place it needs to be for new members.

To use an analogy: A senior member may have surveyed the entire landscape of their relationship, and finally chosen a hill to plant their flag and have decided not to budge any further. New members may come here, see this example, but not the research behind it and believe the answer to their problems is to go out and plant their flag on the nearest hill, but without the benefit of surveying the landscape first. ie it can provoke preemptive conclusions by emulation. The tone of the board has been effected and stagnated.

Improving is about exploring new areas for development. Dynamic rather than static. There is no quick fix. It is human nature to seek one, and taking an inflexible stand on the first issue they come across may seem like a way to go.

[formflier]

New members may come here, see this example, but not the research behind it and believe the answer to their problems is to go out and plant their flag on the nearest hill, but without the benefit of surveying the landscape first. ie it can provoke preemptive conclusions by emulation. The tone of the board has been effected and stagnated.

And also without the wisdom to understand the vastly varying degrees of this disorder, and that each persons landscape, even if it sounds the same when reading it, is likely very different.

FF

[Suzn]

To new members seeing senior members posting in such a pessimistic light it can cause them to give up before they have even started ("if their RS is still a crock what chance mine?"  etc)

the flip side... .

is it wise to move the real life struggles of a senior person from the eyes of newer folks in similar settings?  

are we trying to sweep reality under the rug?

We often forget and what new members don't know (surveying the landscape as waverider explains) is that each board here is goal oriented. Each board has a set of tools and lessons found on the right hand side of the board. Sometimes those lessons overlap, as in the case with the two boards in question here.

The first step on this board In Choosing a Path is Stop the bleeding-tips on how to immediately diffuse conflict. This works very well with step 2 Take a step backward. And so on...

Although there is never a guarantee (that would be impossible with all the variables), what new members need are strong seniors who embrace the clinical philosophies behind what is taught here. Seeing those tools and lessons in action can be inspiring. We do not promote stay at all costs, we do promote what the professionals recommend trying. It is no secret that it takes an emotionally strong individual to be able to step back out of the conflict emotionally and to apply what we learn here consistently.

[Fian]

Although there is never a guarantee (that would be impossible with all the variables), what new members need are strong seniors who embrace the clinical philosophies behind what is taught here. Seeing those tools and lessons in action can be inspiring. We do not promote stay at all costs, we do promote what the professionals recommend trying.

Let's take FF as an example.  His default behavior is to stay with his wife.  He wants to Stay.  But as you pointed out, he will not, and should not, stay at all costs.  If that was the requirement for Staying, then the board would be empty.  I think FF demonstrates how to apply the tools in action, yet how also to question himself, to ensure that he is not falling into a trap of thinking he is always doing the right thing.  Even though his marriage is not doing so well right now, I think it is helpful for new members to read, since chances are they are having problems right now, or they would not have posted in the first place.

My guess is that most senior members who are having success in their marriages right now, don't post much on the Staying board.  People post when they are having problems.  So my guess is that this is resulting in far fewer senior member posts on the Staying board, and as a result, fewer viewership on the Staying board, which means less coaching for new members on Staying.

[Cat Familiar]

Here's a question for the moderators. Why is it that you cannot get to this board without signing in? Sometimes I have very little alone time and I like to take a quick look at the staying and deciding boards. When my husband might walk into the room unexpectedly, having to sign in adds a whole extra layer of caution. Would you consider allowing us to look at the deciding board without a sign in?

[Notwendy]

Personal growth, and relationship growth is a constant thing. Over a long time, all couples will likely have relatively stable times, and also times of change. Emotionally mature and healthy people will react and respond to these changes, but in an emotionally healthy way. People, and couples with BPD can have the same changes, but respond differently.

It is possible that a relationship can have a period of stability, and then, like in FF case, become a rocky road for a while. Where that leads to isn't entirely known- either another period of stability or not, and the posts can reflect that period of instability.

IMHO, there are members who can coach each other. We are not all on the same paths and not all having conflict/stability at the same time.

I think families and couples with a BPD member have similar life events- the joys, the stresses, but the response to them can be a challenge. It would be during these times that they would likely post, however, other posters may be able to help them too.

[MaybeSo]

Posts are only moved when the balance of the board starts to be overly weighted towards lack of growth. Its not really determined soley by tone of a member but about the effect it has on the tone of the board as whole. The "pile on" effect if you like. This starts to have a subconscious effect on those who otherwise are not at that same state of their RS. Having a few high volume posters going though the same thing at the same time, and it no longer feels like the hopeful place it needs to be for new members.

Yes, this can happen for sure. Totally see that.

A newbie also runs the risk of potentially being so attached to the idea of staying on the staying board that it influences them to stay longer than they might otherwise. I'm not sure the board can fix or control for all of those possibilities, either way,  as no system is perfect.

Maybe the fact that the other boards that a person gets "bumped" to are physically below the staying board makes it feel like a demotion. Maybe it's the wording "bumped." I doNt know. There's something about it that just feels like a demotion, or a failing, almost like there is shame attached to it. I'm speaking purely for myself right now. When your relationship fails or is failing, it mirrors that experience to be bumped down to another board. It's like a fall downward.  it's certainly not a move up! I don't know, that's my stuff coming up. I'm not sure that can be fixed or needs to be fixed.  some shame comes up for me about not being on the staying board. Some shame inside myself gets activated. I don't think the board can fix that for me, it's pretty much my internal experience and mine to work with.

I do like the Deciding or Conflicted board and other new boards recently created,  that reflect more nuanced stages. They somehow feel more under the umbrella of staying.

[Suzn]

Maybe it's the wording "bumped." I doNt know. There's something about it that just feels like a demotion, or a failing, almost like there is shame attached to it.

I think you're onto something. You describe feelings of a personal failure. We want to look at this instead as what we can do to help each other avoid a relationship failure, if possible. 

A different way to look at board choices that might be helpful is "what skills (tools/lessons) do I (or any member) need right now/today?"

Staff involvement has everything to do with bpdfamily Mission

[waverider]

A newbie also runs the risk of potentially being so attached to the idea of staying on the staying board that it influences them to stay longer than they might otherwise. I'm not sure the board can fix or control for all of those possibilities, either way,  as no system is perfect.

Agreed that is why senior members need to be on the ball and not in effect helping the struggling member from validating the invalid. To me this would come in the form, not as a run message, but more of like asking a member to self reflect exactly as to why they are staying and if on balance why it feels like the only option.

[waverider]

Here's a question for the moderators. Why is it that you cannot get to this board without signing in? Sometimes I have very little alone time and I like to take a quick look at the staying and deciding boards. When my husband might walk into the room unexpectedly, having to sign in adds a whole extra layer of caution. Would you consider allowing us to look at the deciding board without a sign in?

You can choose to stay signed in permanently, but that could compromise your security is someone opens the page from your computer. If you are using in cognito browser it probably signs you out when you close it.

Boards that you sign into, on any forum I believe, stops them from opening up in a google search, like a firewall if you like. ie you have to be a signed in member to view

[waverider]

Maybe the fact that the other boards that a person gets "bumped" to are physically below the staying board makes it feel like a demotion. Maybe it's the wording "bumped." I doNt know. There's something about it that just feels like a demotion, or a failing, almost like there is shame attached to it. I'm speaking purely for myself right now. When your relationship fails or is failing, it mirrors that experience to be bumped down to another board. It's like a fall downward.  it's certainly not a move up! I don't know, that's my stuff coming up. I'm not sure that can be fixed or needs to be fixed.  some shame comes up for me about not being on the staying board. Some shame inside myself gets activated. I don't think the board can fix that for me, it's pretty much my internal experience and mine to work with.

I guess thats one of the things we are teaching here, see reality for what it is and dont take all actions personally.

A move to the undecided boards means that member is not having to justify their stance and having to defend why they are not trying improve and maybe even accused of being stubborn. ie the debates can be more balanced in the respect that 'run" advise is not moderated out the same

[Cat Familiar]

What I meant to say is that I can access the Staying board without logging in, but that's not true of the Deciding board. Is there a reason for this?

[Scarlet Phoenix]

What I meant to say is that I can access the Staying board without logging in, but that's not true of the Deciding board. Is there a reason for this?

Does it still happen? It was like that for me, too, until they recently changed the name of the Undecided board to Deciding or Conflicted. I couldn't see the Undecided board before unless I was logged in, but I can see the Deciding or Conflicted board without logging in.

Maybe ask the question in the Technical assistance board?

[unicorn2014]

All I can say is I really appreciate the addition of the word conflicted to the description as that fits me to a T as I am religiously/morally/ethically  conflicted about my relationship. Thank you for the update.

[Cat Familiar]

What I meant to say is that I can access the Staying board without logging in, but that's not true of the Deciding board. Is there a reason for this?

Does it still happen? It was like that for me, too, until they recently changed the name of the Undecided board to Deciding or Conflicted. I couldn't see the Undecided board before unless I was logged in, but I can see the Deciding or Conflicted board without logging in.

Maybe ask the question in the Technical assistance board?

Thanks. I now realize I can get there from the pulldown menu at the top of the main page. However the list of boards at the bottom of that same page does not show the Deciding board yet.