I know I need to leave, but I can't

[ArleighBurke]

We've had a cat for 8yrs. He's my wifes cat - they love each other. The cat ran away about 4 months ago. For that time he lived in a forest. Lots of neighbours saw him, and watched him catching rabbits. He was re-caught by a neighbour and seemed fine. The VET said he was healthy, and he seemed social. When I told my wife, she said she didn't want him back - because she would always worry about trusting him. She said if he ever hissed or scratched the kids, she would be concerned. She said she'd never be able to be relaxed with the cat around the kids (ages 6+yrs), always worried that now he's 'wild'.

3 years ago I cracked (under 12yrs of co-dependacy and emotional abuse) and half heartedly posted an ad on an adult dating site. 24hrs later I had removed it, and started fixing myself instead - learning to be less enmeshed and more independant. My wife found out about the ad and my self-improvement-program a few months later, and since then I've been getting healthier, the relationship has been getting worse. She always talks about not being able to trust me anymore - I can understand she is fearful about me cheating (even though I didn't and say i won't) and she hates me having my own opinion and desires.

I can't help but think that if she can't bring herself to trust the cat, what hope is there of her ever trusting me again?

[thisagain]

Hi Williamskevin,

It's unnerving how BPD behaviors like splitting can happen even with beloved pets. I hope the poor cat finds a good home.

I feel for you both re: the dating site... .it must have felt terrible for her and reinforced her already-intense abandonment fears. But I get where you were coming from, and it must be frustrating that she doesn't.

How does it feel when your wife says she can't trust you? How do you respond? Is there anything else going on that makes you feel like you have to leave, or that you can't leave? If you haven't already gone through the Choosing a Path steps on the right, those could go a long way toward helping you get unstuck.

[formflier]

How did she find out about the dating site and the self improvement program?

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

You say in title that you know you need to leave, but can't.

What I hear is that you are afraid that your wife's lack of trust in you is shaking the foundation of your security in the relationship with her, as well as her own sense of security  Am I getting that clear enough?

It is not surprising that your observations of her painting another black is disconcerting to you.  Even if that other is a cat.  Actually, especially a cat who unconditionally loves. 

It is also not surprising that all of you hard work on yourself is being noticed by her and instead of her feeling closer, she is more apprehensive and symptomatic? (Oh, on editing... .I see I neglected to notice the ad she discovered that contributed much)

You say the relationship is getting worse, do you mean she is more symptomatic?

Or are you both struggling in interactions?

Can you give us an idea of what this looks like so that we can help more specifically?

Why is it that you think you 'need to leave' exactly?

What 'holds you back?'

[ArleighBurke]

Sorry, i mostly post on the "Improving a Relationship" board... .

Short background: When I posted the dating site ad, I think I was mid an emotional breakdown. When I composed myslef I knew that wasn't the answer and started working on myself instead. I found a self-development program that basically worked on making myself a better/healthier person, which was then supposed to improve the marriage as well (I didn't know about BPD yet). 3 months after i started that program my wife noticed all my changes, and asked me about it. I wanted the program to remain a secret, but I knew that secrets were bad for relationship trust. I made the less bad decision and told her about the program. Within a day she had found the online forum for the program, and my login, and all my past posts, which were quite honest and detailed. She was *rather* annoyed/hurt/offended. I have tried to tell her many times since then that I didn't cheat, and also that I decided to improve the marriage because I *wanted to*, not because she found out. (To me that completely changes my mindset completely)

After that I started seeing a psych for about 12 months. And during THAT my psych suggested my wife had BPD. I researched and suddenly I saw the light! Everything was clear, and explained, and I have been reading/trying/working since then (2yrs).

I say I know I need to leave because of many reasons:

   1) The original psych and the psych after her, and the counsellor who gave us marriage counselling all told me to leave. (Which I think is wierd because I'm sure they're not supposed to say that... .)

   2) I am resigning myself to the fact that she will never change. No matter what changes I make, no matter how I can stop triggering her, in the end she will always be easily angered, non-affectionate, jealous, unsocial.

   3) For every step better I get (improving me, getting emotionally better, starting to re-socialise, finding my hobbies again) it seems she gets a step worse (hiding in work, "fearing" me, withdrawing).

   4) I don't think I want to grow old with her. She has no hobbies. She won't *do* anything with me. She won't go on dates to dinner, or walking, or sport, or shows or dinner with friends, or have friends over. She says she only wants to connect through "talk" - but 90% of topics are off-limits because they trigger her. I have no way of relating to her and ultimately find her boring.

If I were kidless, I think I would have left a long time ago. But I have 3 kids (12/9/6) and I can't get my head around how life would work if we were separated. She has said (in unrelated conversations) that without me living there she would be lonely and bored, but at peace. Perhaps so, but I'm not sure I like how she'd raise the kids - they will do things to trigger her. And I'm not sure if me only seeing them up to 50% will allow me to have enough good influence over them to make up for whatever happens with her. I also know that she couldn't afford the house if I left, and I don't want the kids to have to move.

So for now I stay. Working on myself. Trying to strengthen my relationship with my kids. Trying to improve my relationship with my wife. But I fear I am soon to give up on us. I don't want to, but my hopes of having a strong loving relationship with her are fading fast.

[Aussie0zborn]

I've been in this same boat. It seems that she might fear that you strengthening yourself makes her weaker and primes you for a life without her. My ex used to say that I had "one foot out the door" and resented me for it, always trying to guilt me for having some level of independence.

The dating ad is a problem - this is where they usually get you... .they can do a thousand things wrong and you do one thing and it's total distrust even though you corrected it of your own accord. All of a sudden the issues that bother you become irrelevant because you planned to "cheat".

Perhaps it seems to her that you will only do what the cat did ie: abandon her.

It's a no win situation. If you can  afford to buy her out and keep the house on your own, why not kick her out and keep the children in their home with you?

[ArleighBurke]

Another failed conversation the other night (see https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=290934). After she gets emotional I'm not sure what of what she says I should "believe" or not. Snippets of what she said while triggered:

• I'm being pressured. I'm hearing I'm not good enough.



• The reason we han't had a lot of sex this year (the last 2 months) is reason-reason-reason-reason (sicknesses mostly). This last week has been really good - very loving. <Fri, Tue, Fri - today is sat night> This last week I've felt romanced by you - loved. That's why i cuddled you on wed/thu night <but when I suggested intimate touchign she belw up> 



• You keep telling me I'm not f**king enough, not kissing enough, not sucking enough.



• If you hate this marriage so much why dont' you just leave.



• I'm bending over backwrds to clean and do and make sure you have a life. But I can't give to you. I can't touch you emotionally. There's nothgin I can think of to touch you.



• I have 3 kids,menopause, depression-I can't do any more! I havn't even talked about work. How can I juggle everything? 



• When we kiss - if I'm not in the right place - I feel used, raped, taken advantage of, not in control,  like it's expected of me. But if I'm in the right mood then it's good. Me:When is that time? Her:well a common problem of couples is matching overlapping <moodtimes> Me:I'm pretty sure I'd kiss you like that anytime. When do you feel that? <she moved on... .>



• You shouldn't ask me about these things. You should talk to a professional

This was the 4th time in about 4 months that I've tried to open up to her emotioanlly and tell her where i am/how I feel. Again it's been turned around into her feeling bad and horrible conversation. I really tried hard to be soft in my approach, and be accepting and pre-validate. "perhaps there is no answer but I'd like to try". But the result: Sex makes her feel bad - and kissing does too! And she's told me that cuddling her from behind and my groin touching her is bad! And she won't date me/go out and DO anything. What hope is there?

That was sat night. On sunday she went into work. I joined her with kids after lunch. We talked plesently, and I put my hands on her shoulders at one point when we were watching kids. When she came home (before dinner) she went and laid in bed. I went in, spooned her and started talking about the conversation. Me: "That was a horrible comversation last night, I'm sorry. " She just started into how do I not understand I need to support her emotionally?

I went out to sport and came home a few hrs later (late). She said:

BPDw: Why aren't I talking to her and making repair and saying sorry? (er... .I was spooning and talking just a few hrs ago?)

BPDw: If she knew I was emotionally hurting SHE':) do whatever she could to help that (er... .I opened my heart last night telling you I was hurting, and since then at breakfast, this afternoon and this evening all we are doing is talking about YOUR hurt from the conversation!)

******

This is never going to get better. I know that. She keeps saying we're not emotionally connected, she wants me to open up, yet when I do... .And how can *I* stay emotionally connected to a woman who I can't date, can't pursue, can't kiss, can't touch, can't have sex with - and can't talk to. The only outcome is a close friendship, or good roommates raising kids together.

I can't do it.

Thinking of leaving is so difficult. Like I've failed. But I know I need to. I think things will get even worse for a while before they settle down. My plan is to say I need a break, and start sleeping at a friends house each night. I'll still pickup the kids from school 3 days/week, bring them to our/her home, spend the afternoon with them, cook dinner for everyone, eat with everyone then go back to the friends home after 7pm to sleep. Havn't got weekends sorted yet, but will probably just arrive early each morning and do whatever with everyone. Really I want to start the pattern of not really being there. Perhaps in 4-6 months I'll get my own place and then start thinking about having the kids myself sometimes.

But the thought of having that conversation and making that step is so surreal. So final. Even now I'm having second thougths... .Argh!

[TheRealJongoBong]

Is your wife in any kind of therapy ? Reading what she has said to you reminds me a lot of my pwBPDs who suffered from emotional, physical, and sexual abuse when they were children. Take a look at the book Trauma and Recovery by J. Herman, you may find it very enlightening.

[ArleighBurke]

She's been in therepy with a psychologist for the past 9yrs. Weekly visits. I havn't seen much change... .

[empathic]

Yes, it's a very difficult step to take, so final. I wouldn't want a trial separation either, it would have to be for real. We travel together, and that works out fine usually. Practical issues with raising the kids works. I don't feel love anymore though. We're like friends and I don't see that changing to be honest.

[TheRealJongoBong]

She's been in therepy with a psychologist for the past 9yrs. Weekly visits. I havn't seen much change... .

My first wife was in therapy from before we were married at least up until we divorced, and that was 10 years. There were improvements over the years but I can't say it was substantial either. From what I remember the majority of the time was trying to blame her issues on someone else, and changing therapists when they didn't agree with her.

Your wife has been seeing the same psychologist for 9 years with little apparent improvement? That doesn't seem right to me at all.

[Sunfl0wer]

And how can *I* stay emotionally connected to a woman who I can't date, can't pursue, can't kiss, can't touch, can't have sex with - and can't talk to. The only outcome is a close friendship, or good roommates raising kids together.

Sometimes people feel emotionally connected through physical intimacy/sex.  Other times people require feeling emotionally connected as a prerequisite to physical intimacy/sex.

It sounds like you are saying that if you could find a way to connect physically, that it would alleviate some of your general disconnect and help build warm bonding feelings from you that could help other areas?

However, it sounds like she is so disconnected that even the thought of physical intimacy is far from her thoughts, as she likely requires an emotional shared experience of positivity before considering being physical.

I suspect as long as she is lacking in her emotional connection, that discussing sex may feel like a violation to her.

Is this what you think you are getting from her?  Is what I am saying making sense? (Asking as my words are not as articulate as I like)

If she needs to feel connected to you first, it is unlikely that taking an approach to first be physical with her or discuss being physical will lead to anything other than more feelings of 'violation.'

I think it is best to avoid the approach to connect to her that is most triggering and look for the most gentle way to connect with her... .and build on that.

Is there a way to connect with her that she is more receptive to usually?

Maybe she allows you to show interest in some area of her life and just let her flow on about it and stay present and interested with her in that... .until you can build into other areas that are more challenging?

There is also the possibility that you are seen completely as a trigger no matter what.  Idk if this is your case or not though.  When I was the trigger for my ex and painted extremely black, there was nothing I could do, he was on a mission to keep me black for another purpose he was pursuing in life... .where I had no place.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm trying to figure out what YOU want. I suspect you are too. Let me summarize a few things, then talk about the big picture as I see it here:

• Your marriage is abusive and emotionally (and physically for the most part) unfulfilling for you.



• Your are working on improving yourself, and feel you've made good progress.



• Your wife's behavior is getting worse.



• You are very concerned that the split custody you would get with your wife would be worse for the kids than what they now have.

First, as a parent, you have an obligation to protect your children from harm.

They ARE being harmed by seeing the example of you and your wife as you are as a model of a romantic relationship. (This shouldn't be allowed to slide completely, but you can take some time before dealing with it. Besides, it will come up naturally for you anyways--this is just one more reason to do so.)

Does your wife direct any emotional (or other) abuse toward them, or only toward you? If that is true, then I think you have some obligation to act sooner, rather than later.

Second, as a person/husband... .regarding your wife... .

I don't know how much longer you can hold on and keep trying to improve things, or how long you should... .but I will say that if you do the right thing yourself, and get better at boundary enforcement to protect yourself, you will make it impossible for your wife to cope with her own issue by abusing you. *IF* you do this successfully, there is a very predictable result--your wife will experience a lot more stress, while she looks for new coping mechanisms. She will get worse. She will turn UP THE VOLUME on attempts to abuse you. And eventually she will realize that this isn't going to work, and have to do something new.

And her version of do something new will either be ending/blowing up the marriage completely, or become more healthy, and work on herself and the marriage. It is her choice.

If you can hold on long enough to let her make it, see what she does. You may be pleasantly surprised.

[ArleighBurke]

Sunfl0wer: thanks. I do try to connect with her emotionally - but i find that a minefield as well.

- She wants me to "open up emotionally" to her, but whenever I do (even about safe topics that have nothing to do with her) she manages to turn that around into her being offended/annoyed

- If i organise a romantic night she assumes I want sex and closes up (even if I make it clear I don't)

- she won't go anywhere/do anything with me - no dates, no walks, not even joint housework

[ArleighBurke]

Grey Kitty: your summary list is about spot on

*IF* you do this successfully, there is a very predictable result--your wife will experience a lot more stress, while she looks for new coping mechanisms. She will get worse. She will turn UP THE VOLUME on attempts to abuse you. And eventually she will realize that this isn't going to work, and have to do something new.

And her version of do something new will either be ending/blowing up the marriage completely, or become more healthy, and work on herself and the marriage. It is her choice.

Seen! Sometimes I wonder if she WANTS me to jump in and enforce something (like telling her to work less). Perhaps she can't say no - and shes wanting me to say it for her.

She "knows" a lot of her behaviours - she can tell me she works too much, she has no hobbies, she needs to lose weight, she even says she fears the marriage will end becuse of her hangups - but she does NOTHING about any of it. If I suggest anything, I'm "pushy". If I organise things for me and invite her she just says no.

Perhaps the imminent threat of me leaving will motivate her - but I suspect not. She is "the victim" -and has so many things to blame for her (work, kids, childhood, being a woman).  I dont' know.

[ArleighBurke]

I've spent the last few weeks feeling miserable - looking at my relationship and noticing just how much work is needed to get my marriage to a point where I'd be happy.

Shes been working a LOT, nights and weekends. She says it's because something big that was planned for 2nd QTR has been brough forward to 1st QTR, but she's also admitted that she uses work as an escape from life.

But it's not really work - it's her attitude to life. I have a desire to enjoy life and my hope is this will help her always enjoy life. But that desire is being pounded by her attitude every day.

This weekend is a long weekend, so I suggested to her we go away as a family. Knowing she woudn't like a long stay, I just suggested 1 night away. She said she was VERY uncomfortable about staying the night. She asked what we would do - I said there was the beach, the pontoon we swam off last time, the water park, and a learn-to-ride park - we could take the girls bikes. She said she didn't want to stay the night - why not a day trip. I said OK. Then she said she agreed that family time would be good, but the girls liked just being home, and "it would be good to do something family orientated that EVERYONE will enjoy, not just some of us". I told her I was open to other suggestions. I know if I don't say anything more we'll end up sitting around all weekend. She doesn't want to go because SHE hates going anywhere or doing anything. I feel like telling her she can stay behind.

Last night she came home at 8:30 after visiting a friend. Straight in the door she was checking her phone messages and work email. Then she jumped on facebook while she "chatted" with me about day-to-day stuff. I tried talking to her 3 times about my own day, but on each time I got 1/2 my first sentance out and she cut me off to show me something on facebook. She didn't ask me to continue or anything. 30-40 mins I sat next to her, alone.


So last week I was miserable. Today I've started the angry phase (that's normal right?). I'm 40 - so I've only been an "adult" for 20yrs, and I have at least another 40yrs left. I have a LOT of my life left - so why am I being miserable now? Do i WANT things to be the same for the next 40yrs? We don't go out, date, do activities, go camping, go walking - all these because of her. I could try to start these things with the kids - but they've had years of not doing things - and I think wife puts a lot of her anxieties on my 2 daughters. Even if i can encourage the kids, how will my wife respond if I live life with the kids and not her? It doesn't seem to motivate her yet - I think she will always have a reason why she is the victim and cannot enjoy life. And what if I wanted to actually SHARE my life with a special person? I don't believe at all that she's going to start to enjoy life - not while she has kids to blame for not doing things, and I'm sure when they grow up she'll find another excuse.

I cant see how this gets better.

[Grey Kitty]

Time to stop "asking" about that kind of thing, I think. Let me present an alternative scenario.

Tell her that you and the girls are going away for the long weekend, and you would love for her to come along with you, but if she wants to stay home she can. You and the girls are going anyway.

(She is entitled to stay home as a prisoner of her own anxiety, but you will not let her hold your children hostage in that situation)

Do you think you could do something like this?