An admission of sorts?

[Ceruleanblue]

Yesterday was another doozie. He didn't get me anything for Valentines day, then got angry at me that I was hurt. I'd bought him several gifts, and he knew this on friday. Plus, his son called and needed money so HE could buy a gift for his off/on girlfriend, and BPDh wired money into his account(again). Right there with me sitting next to him, knowing I felt badly about "no gift". He then left the house, without telling me where he was going(this has been addressed in marriage therapy), and I later got divorce threats.

Can he just not see how this was hurtful? I even gave him an "out" by saying we could just buy me a cheap bottle of perfume(I collect them), off Ebay, but he showed zero interest. I mentioned that on friday when he informed me he hadn't gotten me anything(he works across from the huge outside strip mall, and he managed to call his son on his drive home... .when most guys were last minute shopping I'd think). So, no interest in even just pushing a button on ebay to make me feel better, no interest, and to top it off, HE then played the victim when I was hurt.

Our anniversary is coming up in a little over a week, and I'm getting him a card. No gift, no being extra sweet like I always am on special days, no effort. I think he did this to hurt me, and make a statement. After he got off the phone with his son, he could have even admitted it was a dork move, and said "hey, lets go shopping for you a gift, I've been a total butthead". He could have done LOTS of things that would have felt better than him storming off, and then threatening divorce.

At the end of the day, when I was by then a nervous wreck, he said he'd had a "nice day"? What in the world? I was shaking from a panic attack, and I asked him if we'd witnessed the same day. He then said, he could see where I wouldn't think it was a good day?

He'd been angry and volatile all day, and again, it was ME apologizing, just to try to calm him down. When I disengage, he seems to think I don't want to be around him. Stay: get verbally abuse. Leave to give him space: he feels abandoned. So he left me, without any explanation, and frankly, he's been acting so kooky, that I fear he could be feeling suicidal, but I'd bet he's way too narcissistic for that, actually.

He actually asked to hold me because I was having a panic attack, but before that he said wasn't really angry at me(I don't believe this), but that he gets angry about "things" and TAKES IT OUT ON ME. He's admitted to this twice lately.

Is this true, or is this maybe a bid for empathy(and I can and do empathize)? He has moments of insight, but he usually goes right back to his negative thinking/feelings later.

Not long ago, he apologized for how he's been treating me for the last month, but then came Valentines Day, and he again made bad choices to be angry. Is he just not using his DBT skills? Yesterday was a day of blame, threats and that cold rage.

It's getting to where I dread every day, let alone holidays. I wish we could just skip our upcoming anniversary. Seriously. I have zero expectations now, and he'd always been a decent gift given in the past. He knows my love language is gifts, and words of affirmation, but he just hates doing both. I think he with holds as a means of punishment, and self sabotage. He even said "why do you even still want to be my friend, or be with me?"... .

[Daniell85]

I know that feeling of wishing there was no holiday or anniversary. I really did opt out of valentines day this year. For my own feelings. It's not that I don't care about my boyfriend's feelings, right now I care more about mine.

So if you want to opt out of the anniversary day, then you can do it. Will you feel better? I felt better.

Your husband is treating you this way on purpose. Probably it's not good advice, but if I were you, I would stop giving anything to him, including a card. After a while when he sees you aren't going to give more than you are giving, he may step up to the plate.

[Cat Familiar]

CB, this sounds miserable.    I couldn't bear putting up with behavior like that.

[formflier]

CB, this sounds miserable.    I couldn't bear putting up with behavior like that.

CB,

Listen, wow.   I'm with Cat Familiar on this.  It's one thing to opt out of a holiday.  So, if his son asked for help and your hubby said, hey, I don't do V day, I would actually go a bit easier on him.

But here is the thing, for him to assist a kid with something and not lift a finger to do something for you is a big statement (IMO)

I really see two big ways for this to go that leave you somewhat in control. 

1.  Focus on radical acceptance, look for whatever little good you can and double down on self care.  That is a recipe for staying.

2.  Communicate to him the type of r/s that you are able to offer and that you want to be in.  Make it clear you hope he comes with you, but let him know you are going in that direction, and you go there.  Yes, this is vague, because some of the blanks need to be filled in by you.  Make it clear that it is safe for your hubby to pick a different kind of r/s and that you wish him well if he does that.


I'm having a really hard time describing where I "see" you, in this r/s but it seems like you are waiting around for him to behave reasonably so things can get better.

It seems like a long time since he has behaved reasonably. 

How long are you willing to stick with status quo?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

He actually asked to hold me because I was having a panic attack, but before that he said wasn't really angry at me(I don't believe this), but that he gets angry about "things" and TAKES IT OUT ON ME. He's admitted to this twice lately.

Looks like a bit of progress, that he can recognize this, and even share it with you upon occasion. I'd take it as being encouraging... .

... .but not expect it to be any useful indication that he will soon be doing significantly better on this front. Well not very quickly, anyways.

 

[Verbena]

I can't remember if I asked this before, or if you have discussed it before, but is it possible your husband is more than BPD?  You've mentioned that he hurts you purposely during sex, and he seems to actively choose to hurt you emotionally on a regular basis.  He really seems like a sadist from what you have described.  

Whatever the label, all people can change.  I just wonder what it is that you're really dealing with.   If he gets enjoyment out of hurting you--and I think he does--then the payoff for his behavior will continue as long as he can hurt you.  How you can stop that hurt is really beyond me.  Anyone would be hurt from this treatment.  

His behavior on Valentine's Day resulted in you being upset, hurt, and having a panic attack. I think that's what he was after, thus his comment about it being a "good day." 

[Ceruleanblue]

Hmmm, maybe he viewed it as a "good day" because I ended up with a panic attack, but I think it's probably more that he's able to view things however he CHOOSES to view them, and reality has little bearing on it. Therefore, he can think something I'm doing totally out of good will is crappy, and things his kids do that is clearly awful(like hating on me for zero reason, and not letting BPDh see his grandkids) is hunky dory(although he's finally admitted his kids are behaving in dysfunctional ways). He's sort of able to pick and choose his reality, but he just seems to want to pick a negative reality in relation to ME, and our marriage.

The money he wired his son hurt because he did it ON VALENTINES day, with me sitting right next to him, hearing the conversation, and he sort of belligerently stated "I'm sending "man/boy" money because he needs it for Valentines for his girlfriend". He KNEW this would hurt me after he'd done nothing, but he is unable(or unwilling) to tell his kids "no". I get "no" very easily, and I'm even afraid to ask him for anything! It's crappy. He knows I feel this way, because I've very carefully, and kindly explained that fact. He then left the house with zero explanation, and I got scared. I knew it would be divorce threats, or him threatening to throw me out, or that he could be out road raging(huge issue for him).

He had DBT yesterday, and he shared with me that he told her about Valentines Day. Of course I know this probably means the whitewashed, "ceruleanblue" is partially to blame version. He said his DBT therapist told him to stop the threats, and he said "sided with me"(odd as I wasn't even there, and why does he view it as "sides?) and told him of course his threats make me scared and have no feelings of security. He acted shamefaced(as much as he's able, as he's pretty arrogant), and said he knows he needs to stop, but it's hard for him. He also said he thinks they figured out why he acted so badly on Valentines Day: he was feeling "worthless". I'm not sure I buy into that. Maybe. He felt worthless because he didn't buy me a gift, he said. I see it as a deliberate choice, and he certainly didn't take me up on my easy "out" for him of picking out one of several cheap bottles of perfume off ebay. I think all his behavior was deliberate, and I'm having trouble thinking it wasn't. Much as I like to make excuses for him, it's getting harder and harder.

I DO think he's dealing with something worse than BPD. I've thought that for a while now. He's definitely NPD too, but I feel it's something worse, or perhaps just a really severe case of BPD. He's always seemed higher functioning, as he can hold a job, but there is also a history of run ins with his various boss'. He was about to get fired at his last job, and this new one he's already on notice after two short years.

As of last night, he's saying he really just needs to work his DBT skills, and I think that's great, but the issue has been when he dysregulates, they fly out the window. He's like a rage addict. Plus, he's back to where he was 14/15 months ago, before he walked out of the marriage, and when he was saying "he just doesn't think he wants to be married", and "he shouldn't keep putting me through this", interspersed with times he views everything as "my fault". Funny thing is, he still looks back on his last marriage where he was physically abused(likely a reason for that, not that there is ever a reason to abuse someone), and he says "he thought it was her, but he now see's it was HIM". So, he won't blame his ex, but he blames me, and always has. It's like his thinking it backwards.

He's just all over the place. I think he's having some insight, but I'm hoping it's not short lived this time. I hope he actually starts using the DBT skills(I use them). I'd like to think he's remorseful, as he did come home with a "gift" last night(I feel he deliberately didn't buy what he knows I like: perfume, cheap or pricey), but I think it was because his DBT therapist might have made him feel like a cad about Valentines Day.

[Notwendy]

Not to take this off course, but I saw an article where a woman was arrested for beating up her husband for not giving her a present for Valentines day. ( Of course this wasn't a good thing to do). But it's probably not a good idea to not get something for your wife on this day. 

[Verbena]

I was in Walmart a couple of years ago on Valentine's Day.  I won't ever do that again, by the way, as it was insane.  Anyway, there was a man there picking out a Valentine's gift for his wife.  He called her on his cell to ask if she was okay with what he was getting her ( no surpises I guess) and apparently she threw a fit over his choices because she was screaming at him (you could hear her) and then he cussed her out right there in the checkout line.  All I could think was, "Wow, what a lovely couple they are."  Dysfunction is everywhere, even (or maybe especially) at Walmart. 

[Ceruleanblue]

Both those stories are funny. Beating your guy up(physically or emotionally) is definitely not a good option, and the couple that cussed each other out clearly have bigger issues than the Valentine's gift.

BPDh was in no doubt as to what I wanted, as I clearly told him: perfume. Sometimes I'll say: perfume or jewelry(need not be expensive). This time I was very specific, and it was just a case of "didn't care". I'm not giving him a "pass" on this one. I already tried that with the ebay offer, and he clearly was making a "statement", because he couldn't even be bothered, yet he played his computer games for HOURS on end. Message received, and I think he thought he was making some point, until his DBT therapist told him he was clearly thoughtless.

I know I'm not the only woman whose husband chose to ignore the day, but it still stings, and I'm going to really consider doing the above suggested options. Our anniversary is coming, and I'm likely going to do Zippo, Nada, Nothing. Not to retaliate, but because why should I keep spending hours shopping for thoughtful gifts for someone who can't be bothered for me? That just makes me feel worse, when clearly, to him, I'm not worth the effort. Or something. I seriously still can't figure out WHY he did this.

[Notwendy]

I know that I can't make a choice for you, but for me if I were in your shoes, I would do nothing, not because of him, or because he didn't get me something, but because of how I feel.

I would feel resentful if I got him a gift, and to me, resentment is a signal that I am not doing something that comes from an authentic place. It might be also that I would consider getting a gift because of FOG, or to keep the peace, but that isn't a good reason either.

I wouldn't do anything for the anniversary because, I just would feel resentful. And there doesn't have to be another reason but that.

[Verbena]

I agree with Notwendy about not getting him anything given how you feel.

I have not gotten my H anything for our anniversary for quite some time.  Our marriage has deteriorated to the point that we have no physical relationship, no relationship really at all.  He will not discuss our issues, says he has no memory of anything I want to talk about, and is in complete denial. 

Even saying "happy anniversary" really feels fake, and I hate fake. 

You are really in a tough position with your marriage, and I can't give you any advice other than to try to accept that this might be as good as it gets.  I think that's where I am.  Our husbands are very different, but at least yours is in therapy.  Mine refuses any help and believes he has no part in our dysfuncton. 

You deserve better than what you are getting.   

[Grey Kitty]

This whole thing with romantic holidays is crazy. And I'm still scarred from it, I just realized. (For those who don't know my story, I was married for 25 years, hints of BPD were there at the beginning, it ramped up a lot a ~decade ago, and then a year or two after I found this place and boundaries, she stopped being abusive... .at least directly, and our marriage ended a year ago anyways, another long story.)

And I just had a delightfully fun started-to-fast, went-to-deep, and ended after exactly one week online dating relationship.

I realized something as this was starting up--that I really wanted to heal something in myself around the whole concept of romance. I wanted to be in a relationship where I could do romantic things, be appreciated, receive romantic things, appreciate them, enjoy it, not feel guilty, not second guess myself, etc.

I spent way too long in this state where my wife didn't feel like she was lovable and worthy of romance. And since feelings=facts, she wasn't lovable and worthy of romance. And if I was acting loving or romantic toward her, the obvious conclusion was that I was faking it for some ulterior motive, because it wasn't possible that I would be genuine about it. Which meant that whatever I did, it was wrong. If I did nothing that was wrong. If I did too much or the wrong thing... .didn't really matter what I did, she could find a way to make it be wrong and blame me for it. Afterall, it is easier to blame somebody else for hating you than it is to hate yourself.

And that played out on every romantic holiday and usually on her birthday too. (Generally all I saw was blaming/attacking me for doing it wrong... .what she was feeling didn't come out for a long time)

... .and in beautiful irony, the new relationship I had hopes of healing romance for me... .I was dumped on Valentine's Day.

[Cat Familiar]

Oh, Grey Kitty, so sorry.   

But at least you didn't have to spend years to find out how this one would work out.

Hope the next one is better. 

[Ceruleanblue]

GreyKitty:

So sorry that happened, especially on Valentines Day. I do often think that Hallmark, and Hollywood have given us unrealistic expectations for holidays, but I also think that when you are in a relationship, loving gifts and gestures should be part of it. It sounds like you tried very hard to please your ex on holidays, and that's great. If she couldn't receive them because she felt unworthy, that was her issue). I sort of think BPDh might bounce between feeling unworthy, or at least guilty for getting gifts when he couldn't be bothered, to actually feeling totally entitled to be the only one worthy of a gift. He's very narcissistic, so it's hard to figure out, plus he bottles his feelings unless he's raging, so who knows. Either way, it stinks.

I love giving people gifts they enjoy, and I do love getting them(it's my love language). I love knowing that the person took MY personal likes into consideration, that they took time out of their day, and that to them, I matter. I remember coming home from school, and my Mom would sometimes surprise me with a new item of clothing, and have it waiting on my bed. I loved that, because it just made me feel so loved, and even 30 years later, I remember that feeling.

I feel like something that I really enjoy, and that means a lot to me is possibly something I won't have with BPDh. WHY this hurts so badly is because I know his history of things he did for his ex(thanks to his whole family for telling me, BPDh also told me too), and the fact that I get to witness him be overly generous with other people he's giving gifts to. I can't help but think this is deliberate, as he's a good gift giver to others.

He told me he'd make it up to me, but we've gone shopping twice, and once he showed zero interest, and last night, he took me to a very expensive perfume shop(he knows I'm cheap, and like to find deals on ebay or at TJ Maxx and the like, where they have the same stuff, but marked down), but he didn't offer to buy me one. It's like he's playing this cat and mouse type head game. He says he'll "make it up to me", and "let's go look for you a perfume, because I feel really bad about Valentines Day, I know I was a schmuck"... .but then he either zones out, or doesn't say "how about this one", or "if you like that, lets go home and find it on ebay".

I think it's all a game, and I think I'm done playing it. I think he enjoys hurting me initially, and I think he enjoys stringing me along, pretending he's trying to make it up to me, but really he's enjoying watching me twist in the wind with disappointment. Maybe I'm just being too hard on him, but I don't think so based on how he HATES to disappoint his kids, or anyone else.

I did order him something for our upcoming anniversary, but I'll give it to him with no expectations. If I change my mind, I can keep it, and not gift it to him. I pretty much know after my birthday, then valentines, both in short order, that he's probably in the same mental place now, two weeks later. A healthy person would think "I'm going to really do better this time"... .you know, if he really WAS sorry, as he's said. We'll see, I guess.

[formflier]

 

CB,

I wonder if being more direct would be better than cat and mouse.

He takes you to expensive perfume shop, pick one out, swat him on the butt and say it's make up and make out time.  If he balks, ignore it, or perhaps walk away and go do something by yourself.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I feel for you CB. It really sucks to get the bait and switch thing when you were at the perfume shop.

My husband did a bit of a sucky thing on Valentine's Day too. He did give me a card and flowers, but when I gave him a gift, he told me that he had looked in town for something the day before (I planned weeks ahead with his gift) and that he thought he'd give me a gift certificate at the shoe store, but he thought that $100 might be too much and there'd be money left over, but then I could also buy a second pair of shoes.

So his plan was to go to a movie matinee and then we'd go to the shoe store. After the movie, he completely forgot about the shoe store and started walking toward the car. In the past, I wouldn't have said anything--I would just have felt hurt that he didn't remember.

I said, "What about the shoe store?" and he said, "Oh, yeah." But then he was suddenly hungry and it was a crisis and he thought he'd get some ice cream at the ice cream store. But then there were about six people in line and that was too long to wait, so we crossed the street to the shoe store.

I looked around for a while, but I could see he was getting impatient. I said, "I can see you're hungry. Why don't you go across the street and get your ice cream?"

He said, "Are you trying to get rid of me?"

"Of course not," I said and continued looking, but his agitation was distracting. After a few minutes he left and returned with a cup of ice cream and sat down and ate it inside the store. (I thought that was rude, but I didn't say anything.)

I found a pair of shoes and I didn't look at the price. When the clerk rang it up, they were $170. A look of disapproval crossed my husband's face. "It's an expensive afternoon for you," I said. (I thought "What a jerk! He's ruining my enjoyment of the gift he tried to forget he promised me. And he's a wealthy man and this week he's treating himself to a spa vacation out of town." I just smiled and thanked him.

[formflier]

I found a pair of shoes and I didn't look at the price. When the clerk rang it up, they were $170. A look of disapproval crossed my husband's face. "It's an expensive afternoon for you, " I said. (I thought "What a jerk! He's ruining my enjoyment of the gift he tried to forget he promised me. And he's a wealthy man and this week he's treating himself to a spa vacation out of town." I just smiled and thanked him.

Nice work!

[Grey Kitty]

  thanks for the kind thoughts. Honestly I'm not upset at all about this year and I am past the hurt with my ex on this too. It was a fun thought, however brief that I would have a chance to heal this for myself. Another time, another romance. It will happen.

CB, I wouldn't guess that your H enjoys disappointing you and watching you twist in the wind. (Although I don't have much experience with N-traits)

I would suspect that he does NEED to do this to you as his way of coping even though he doesn't really enjoy it.

It is a subtle distinction, and it doesn't change his actions, or what you ought to do to protect yourself. It might allow you a bit more compassion and help you work on your side of things, though.

[Ceruleanblue]

At this point, I'm sure what more I can do to work on "my side" of things. I try to be a good, supportive partner, and treat him with respect, and treat him the way I'd love to be treated. I work on my OCD, and my issues in therapy, and we are also in marriage therapy. I'm not sure how many more books I can read, videos I can watch, or ways I can change to make things better. I've spent the last four years thinking "if I do this different, or just don't react, or give him space, or ... ." None of which seemed to make an ounce of difference.

I think he just gets into these funks, and negative thinking patterns, and nothing I do, even if I was "perfect", would make a difference. He's making choices to think, behave and react this way. He's creating his own reality, and it isn't actually based on much reality, just HIS reality. Some things are far worse than he'll acknowledge(being on notice at his job), and some thing are better(our marriage has improved this last year, until he hit his "low mood". He swings, he cycles, and I'm tired of trying to change ME to accommodate him, because it just doesn't work. I thought changing ONE of the variables(me, and how I react, or relate, or empathize) would change the outcome. Sadly, it just doesn't. I'd be so happy if it did, because it's far, far easier for me to change, do the work, or bend.

I'm open to ideas. I'm just stuck. This sucky birthday and Valentines day was a real eye opener to me. I want to get past that too, but I'm just hurt, and feel I really don't matter to him. The proof is in the pudding so to speak, and he just keeps showing me who matters, and here is the order: His kids(three of whom are estranged), HIM, his job, his hobbies, my daughter, then me, way down the line. I'm not even exaggerating.

[ct21218]

CB, I'm sorry if this comes across as blunt, but I see you doing a lot of the same things and expecting him to be different.  Based on past behavior,  he is unlikely to do anything nice for your anniversary. Why not take the money that you would spend on his gift and do something nice for yourself? If you don't treat yourself better, he certainly isn't going to.  I wouldn’t go out of my way at all for him.  Meet your own needs and don't expect anything from him.  He has ruined a lot of special days for you and he has no reason to change because you continue to go out of your way for him.

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, in the future, I think I'll do what another poster did, and just when were are out, pay for whatever I pick out with our debit card, and thank him! I did go ahead and buy him an anniversary present, but only because I have ZERO expectations from him. I know he likely won't buy me a dang thing, so I bought the gift knowing that.

The reason my birthday and Valentines day stunk was that in the past, he'd been a good gift giver for special occasions. This is a new factor. Now, he's been lousy all along with my "love language", one of which is gifts(the small, token kinds done for no reason), but I could at least count on him to do the expected holiday type gifts.

I bought him an anniversary gift because I would have felt badly if I hadn't. GUILT is a huge one for me, and those who know me well manipulate that fact. I didn't want him playing the victim, or saying "see, you didn't buy me a gift, so now we are even", or worse "you did this to get even". I'd know it wasn't true, but he'd believe it. I bought the gift to honor MYSELF, and what I believe. I believe when you love someone, you buy them gifts to show your love, and not buying him something would have felt disingenuous to me.

I'm fully aware that I likely will get nothing from him, but my gift has nothing to do with that. This time, I went into it knowing that. He actually did get me something for my birthday, just not Valentines. It was my birthday that he ruined with his behaviors, for three days. He also tied things up with "plans" so I didn't get to see my parents. THAT is not going to happen next year.

I am trying to take care of myself, and I guess you are right, it now has to extend to this "gift", "holiday" area now too because he has clearly shown just how deliberately unfeeling he can be.

[ct21218]

I enjoy giving gifts as well. My husband is not a planner at all. I think he felt guilty this past Christmas because he had a pile of presents to open and hadn't gotten anything for me.  He ended up getting me gift cards for a few of my favorite places, which was fine because I know I'm hard to buy for.

I hope that if your husband has one of his moods on your anniversary that you take time away and do something for yourself.  Even a small thing, like a pedicure.