Dealing with parental alienation

[formflier]

Yes, my kids need to be out of it, it being whatever she is pissed off about.

I am confident I won't be defcon.  But, in a calm businesslike manner can ask for agreement that kids are out of it.  Would also be interested in why, since we both know from our counseling history, kids were brought in it in the first place,

I do want to listen to see if there is another story, she does keep saying we can't talk until MC, and then she keeps talking.

Perhaps there is another story, but I doubt it.

FF

Topic split from https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=290511.msg12734560#msg12734560

[Grey Kitty]

But, in a calm businesslike manner can ask for agreement that kids are out of it.  Would also be interested in why, since we both know from our counseling history, kids were brought in it in the first place... .

NOO! It's a trap!

And you "asking for agreement". Really? We have had this discussion before!

I understand that you really WANT these things, but really nothing good will come of it.

If she is pressed to "agree" she may... .then you will be royally upset when it flies out the window in a dysregulation.

And please have nothing to do with interest in "why" she did it. She doesn't have a good reason. If she confronts that she will have to face her own shame over these things. And she doesn't seem to have what it takes to face that. Instead she dives into mental illness and attacking you.

Either of these things will make your marriage worse, whether you are in the presence of a MC or not.

... .so what can you do?

Make it not about her. Or at least nearly so.

Be 100% clear. Bringing the children into your disagreements with her is not acceptable and you will not participate in it.

No tolerance. No negotiations. No threats. No discussions of "why".

Just know deep inside you that this has no place in your marriage.

[formflier]

 

GK,

That's really good advice, I see where you are going.

I state my truth and my view.  Let her state hers and let MC sort through it if there are two different realities.

FF

[patientandclear]

What does it mean concretely to say it is not acceptable to bring the kids into conflict? She is doing it. The next time she does it, how does FF manifest "not acceptable?" Walking away actually just ends it early--does not insulate kids who heard the beginning.

[Verbena]

FF, I don't see your wife allowing anyone, especially not you or a counselor, telling her that she must stop dragging your children into your marital problems.  She may agree that it isn't healthy, but she is going to keep doing it as long as it serves her purpose.  Even if she KNOWS it is damaging her children, her need to hurt you is greater.  

I agree that you need a zero tolerance policy for this behavior.  But what does that really mean?  You can say you won't tolerate it or participate in it, but you can't keep her from doing it and you can't stop the damage it's causing.

As far as stating your truth to the MC, does this include explaining what has happened in the past two months and why you don't find it acceptable?  I don't see your wife even agreeing that these things ever occurred.  In her disordered mind, maybe they never even happened.  I have experienced this recently with my husband.  

[Grey Kitty]

I state my truth and my view.

Yes, this is right on. State this and don't JADE about it.

However... .this isn't about your truth vs. her truth, and this isn't about what is said in MC.

This is about how you are living your life, and how you are protecting your children. This needs to be boundary ENFORCEMENT. Which is 99% taking action, and 1% stating what you will do.

Your wife needs to understand from your actions that you will not participate in situations where she pulls the children into conflicts between the two of you.

Just like she understands that physical discipline of the kids the way that got CPS involved last time is not something you will allow to happen. Yes, she is still PISSED about your involving CPS. Yes, she blames you, paints you black, and says all kinds of crap about it. But that isn't what matters. What matters is that she hasn't beat the kids since that incident.

Honestly, I'm not too worried about how you handle discussing it with her and the MC.

What is your action plan to stop it from happening in your house, tomorrow, or whatever time she next attempts it? Can we help you work that out?

[formflier]

 

So, I realize that I can't stop her.

What I see counseling for is to help my wife and I have a conversation.

I would like her to understand the type of marriage that I am offering to her.  I want to understand the type she is offering to me.

If we are at a place where those don't match up, then we go our separate ways.  End of story.

Note:  The curious part about this is I have been offering a biblical model.  She has chosen a biblical counseling place, so I don't know how she navigates these waters where she wants to live a life of unrepentant sin.

It's one thing to have a blip or bad day here and there.  Even nons have that happen.  

We are going on two months of what appears to be a "new FF wife", with blips of good behavior.

I realize I can't force her to make a choice, at some point I will make one.  

Not sure how this church does church discipline, but essentially there is a model in the bible of confronting sin.  Confront person, bring in others, take it to the church.  

If someone is unrepentant they could get booted, but again, not sure how they do that here.

FF

[formflier]

What is your action plan to stop it from happening in your house, tomorrow, or whatever time she next attempts it? Can we help you work that out?

I'm open to suggestions.

What she is doing is not illegal.  I suppose I could video it, but I think that would be adding fuel to fire.

I can't physically stop it.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

What is your action plan to stop it from happening in your house, tomorrow, or whatever time she next attempts it? Can we help you work that out?

I'm open to suggestions.

What she is doing is not illegal.  I suppose I could video it, but I think that would be adding fuel to fire.

I can't physically stop it.

FF

Perhaps I don't understand exactly what she's doing, but I think you can do more to stop it. Let me start by defining what "it" is. Here is what I'm thinking of.

She has a disagreement with you. (Typically you are not obeying her directives).

Next, she involves the kids and "holds court" in this disagreement, pressuring the kids into "testifying" against you.  

Alternatively, she calls her FOO on the phone and loudly condemns you for your poor behavior, in a way that you and children are forced to listen to.

Can you stop it?

No, you cannot force her to stop talking at these times, and no you cannot get any law enforcement agency to do so.

You can, however, be very clear that you will not participate in this. You can immediately leave her presence with a statement that this is not acceptable behavior and you will not be present for it.

(I would suggest taking kids with you, but the logistics and escalation of that sounds unlikely to turn out well in your case.)

This seems like a start. What do you think?

[formflier]

 

Yep, I left her presence and was on the other side of a locked door, holding the door shut with my foot.

She held court on the other side of the door. 


Once it is clear that court has started up, I don't stick around for long.  I do make sure and say clear and to the point things like "the kids should not be involved in this" or "this should be a private discussion between mommy and daddy"

Basically, once it is clear she is making her opening arguments, I head somewhere else.  Sometimes she pursues, sometimes she doesn't.

FF

[Verbena]

Walking away when your wife creates her chaos and drags your children into it might be sending a message to your children that you are weak, that their mother is stronger (and louder) and that she "won."  

It's not about winning, of course, but I do worry that this could be the lesson they are learning:  If you are aggressive enough and make a big enough scene, you can force the other person to walk away.  Then you can twist the events and be the hero.  

What would happen if the next time this happens you calmly and clearly state--in front of the children--that you do not want them witnessing any of this, that you fear this is only hurting them, that you do not want that.  You don't have to say, "Your mom's behavior is hurting you" even though it is.  

Maybe you've already done a form of this, but I would think the children need to hear you say it in front of everyone.  If your wife escalates to her cursing/hopping/dancing around/threatening mode, then so be it.  Then you can ask her, in front of the children, to please stop the behavior for the sake of the kids.  

As long as you are the calm one and as long as you stand your ground, I think your kids will benefit from seeing that.  

[Grey Kitty]

Walking away when your wife creates her chaos and drags your children into it might be sending a message to your children that you are weak, that their mother is stronger (and louder) and that she "won."  

No, that isn't the optimal thing to model to the kids. It is, however, better than others.

"Holding court" through a locked door with your foot blocking it was worse than leaving.

Standing in front of her listening is worse than leaving. (Not very different from the above)

Yelling back at her trying to shout her down is clearly far worse than any of the above.

[One other note. Kids are NOT stupid. They notice what "winning" looks like. If FF refuses to fight, but also doesn't change behavior in response to the provocation, they will observe that too.]

FF, weren't you a fan of good, better, best? I'd call removing yourself with a single clear, calm statement that this is not an acceptable way to resolve a disagreement "good."

In the "Better" department, I'd suggest that if this is done, telling the kids to go someplace out of earshot might be better. Especially if there is a good chance of them doing so.

Turning it into a fight over what the kid does "Go to your room." "Stay right here." ... ... ... ... would be worse.

[Verbena]

Maybe what I'm struggling with is actually what is said before you walk away, FF. 

The kids know exactly what the behavior is that you are not ok with them witnessing.  Instead of, "This is between Mommy and Daddy" or "This should be discussed at a later time"  what about calmly making a request for the specific behavior to stop?

Examples: 

Please do not tell our three and five year old that I am a liar. 

Please do not ask our son to testify against me.

Please do not ask the children to throw away my things when I am asking to go through them myself.

Please do not use the F-word in front of the children. 

Please do not encourage our children to keep me from sleeping.   

[patientandclear]

A couple things.  First, the abusive dynamics (in my state it is called "abusive use of conflict" involving the kids here goes deeper than just FF's wife criticizing him in front of the kids.  Leaving does address that at some level, and Verbena's idea of naming the problem in front of the kids does too.

But after a few episodes of that, the failure to do anything about the situation besides futilely stating that it is bad, is going to be depressing and demoralizing for the kids.  By the 50th time you've said "this should not be going on in front of the kids," but it still does, there's little point in saying that anymore.  Kids will feel you cannot or will not protect them.

Deeper: she doesn't just criticize you in front of the kids; she actively deploys them in these war games.  To punish you, she orders them all in the car and they head off to her parents or the beach or wherever.  She instructs kids not to help you when you've asked them to help you.  This is ACTIVE involvement of the kids, not just them witnessing a bilateral skirmish between their parents.

I think most folks who grew up with parents who did stuff like this later testify that they longed for the parent who was the target to leave.  To create SOME safe, peaceful, sane space.  To end the grating on one another.  It may even enhance the problem parent (for want of a better term)'s relationship with the kids, because they don't have to witness the problem parent engaging in mistreatment of their other parent.

[formflier]

Please do not tell our three and five year old that I am a liar. 

Please do not ask our son to testify against me.

Please do not ask the children to throw away my things when I am asking to go through them myself.

Please do not use the F-word in front of the children. 

Please do not encourage our children to keep me from sleeping.   

I have said all of this, almost verbatim.

Please don't tell the kids that I am insane.

This is a marital issue and shouldn't be discussed in front of the kids. 

Please go with me to discuss this in private.

This is parental alienation, it's damaging to the kids, stop it.

This is emotional abuse, stop it.

This is damage for (name the kid) to hear, stop it.

I have told kids to go to other room, wife countermands it, I retire to different room for energy to dissipate.

There are other's I haven't put on the list, but you get the picture.

When I say this I am not yelling, but firm and assertive.  Stern.

FF

[formflier]

 

Note:  In an odd way, if we weren't going to counseling soon, I would likely have done something different, sooner.

There is a thought to try to keep things somewhat calm so we make it to the counseling room.

I wonder if the pressure of that upcoming appointment plays into this at all.

Two days before she painted me black, I got the text asking if she could pick a counselor.  I replied yes. 

No further discussion.

FF

[Fian]

Here is something to consider:

1.  Get agreement in MC that she will not do parental alienation.

2.  Also get in MC that if she violates above, you can play in MC recordings of her violation (explain that based on past experience she does not hold to agreements).

3.  State that the next time she violates it, you will record the conversation (and visibly start recording when it happens).

4.  State that if she continues to perform parental violation, you will likely end up in divorce, and you will use all recordings as evidence that she is not fit to be a parent.

Basically establish boundaries where something that she does not want happens if she violates the agreement.

Optional Addendum:  Every single time before MC, have a secret ballot where every kid checks Yes/No on whether mom said bad things about dad when you weren't around.  T reviews the ballots at the start of each session.

[empath]

One of the things that I have done is talk with my children about the actions of my husband. They know that he has hurt them, so I say it is wrong (using age-appropriate language and concepts). They have also talked about bullying and violence in school,  so I build on those ideas. Then, I give them permission to come to me and talk about the things that bother them (and I will listen and help them). It hurts the kids to be used in this way. My thinking is that the kids need to know that the things going on are not right and need tools to deal with it; it's a bit like what I would do if the kids were abused by someone outside our home.

This started after our youngest asked me what I did after my husband scared her. I realized that she needed to know that I had her back; a lot of times kids don't have parents who will stand up for them.

[flourdust]

Here is something to consider:

1.  Get agreement in MC that she will not do parental alienation.

2.  Also get in MC that if she violates above, you can play in MC recordings of her violation (explain that based on past experience she does not hold to agreements).

3.  State that the next time she violates it, you will record the conversation (and visibly start recording when it happens).

4.  State that if she continues to perform parental violation, you will likely end up in divorce, and you will use all recordings as evidence that she is not fit to be a parent.

Contracts and ultimatums with BPD? I have never heard of that working.

Optional Addendum:  Every single time before MC, have a secret ballot where every kid checks Yes/No on whether mom said bad things about dad when you weren't around.  T reviews the ballots at the start of each session.

This is a horrible horrible suggestion. You do NOT involve kids like this.

[Sluggo]

FF,

I am dealing with this also.  My wife escalates to a point where I just need to leave.  I am not sure if that is the best strategy but it is the one that I have been using as any of the other things I have tried leads to a show down and my wife wins and I feel horrible to have listened to all of that.  Also my kids don't need to listen to it either when I leave.   

So I have been leaving.  And since I am at an apartment now for 30 days, it has been nice because she knows that I will leave if that happens.  But on the flip side, she has started to ride me as soon as I walk in the door, and uses that as a weapon as she knows that I will leave.  It is her way to get me to leave the house and keep away from the kids.  We don't have custody arrangements yet so she has been winning that battle and I have allowed it.  Needless to say I am not sure what the best way to deal with somehting like that is. 

[Notwendy]

I don't wish to interfere with your choice of religion, but my thoughts on a style of confrontation over "sin" and "unrepentant sin" would be triggering and shaming to someone with BPD. Even if you believe it is the right thing to do, if it is triggering and shaming which leads to dissasociation, then IMHO this kind of approach could not be effective. It would be even more so in the presence of someone else.

One thing that comes to mind is the Catholic approach to this, with the priest behind a screen, in a closed area. This creates a confidential situation that the person walks into voluntarily. ( even thought it is required) Also, it is known that this is applies to everyone. A person with BPD would be aware that they are not singled out, and they are not "confessing their sin" in the presence of a spouse. In addition, the priest gives them something tangible to help them- certain prayers, actions to do, so that the person can redeem themselves. I know that you are not Catholic, but I do believe that some ideas can be shared between religions, and the idea of confidentiality- and the one on one relationship with clergy can make this easier on shame, and in the case of BPD, that shame is overwhelming.

These are crucial concepts for everyone, but especially in the case of someone with BPD. They already feel they are defective. To be confronted, face- to- face by a clergy member and in front of others with their "unrepented sin" might be overwhelmingly shaming. While you may be firm in your belief about this, I wonder if there is some better way to deal with this than in biblical counseling with you. After all, if an aspect of this that she can let go of some shame that is personal to her, doing this in your presence makes it not personal.

[Notwendy]

Also, with what your wife says to the kids about you, I don't think you can control what she says. It isn't possible to watch her every second. In addition, if you get into refuting her, then you sound just as divisive to the kids. I don't know if your wife has some plan. That sounds way too organized for the emotional issues behind this. This to me sounds like triangulation combined with poor boundaries and emotional immaturity, with your wife feeling as if she is a victim. Also, this triangulation is not just in one situation.

An example of this is seen in pre-teen girls. It isn't as common with boys I think because at that age, boys seem less interested in the social dynamics of pre-teens than girls are- from what I have observed. If one girl had a spat with another one, then she would rally the other girls in the group to "her side". The middle school years are emotionally rough to navigate, and thankfully these dynamics are outgrown as kids mature, but I think we have all seen examples where they are not in some people.

Where the poor boundaries come in is that, I think pwBPD see their kids as peers, not children.

This has been a common occurrence with my mother. Since I have been her "black" child, she has made attempts to pull people close to me aside to fill their ears with something negative about me. She appears to be ruthless with this and has tried to do this with my H and my kids, but if you were to ask her why, ( and give this one up, there is no articular why- I think just the feeling in the moment)  I think it is about her feeling like she has been victimized. Although she is not successful with them, she has been successful in painting me black to her FOO and my father. She does it with her children, calls one of us up to "discuss" the other ones. I basically told her and sibs that I will not participate in these discussions- but this doesn't stop her talking to others.

She did this with us as kids about my father. He didn't resort to the same actions. I almost never heard him speak negatively about her. Sometimes when we were younger, she was convincing. When we were older, we looked at this in context of the whole picture. Dad was the one who seemed normal to us, and eventually we just thought she was not- and her triangulating behavior was part of the whole picture, not just about him.

I don't condone this, it isn't a good thing to do with kids, but I don't think there is any good way to control it, and I also think it extends beyond you- and she does it with others.

[formflier]

 

Religion stuff:  No interest in debating what is better or right.  This is for information about Mrs FF and I "believe".

We have pastors.  They are not involved in our r/s with God.  There is nobody "in the way" (as we would say it).  A saved person talks directly to Jesus to deal with their sin.

We are all sinners.  My wife is no better and no worse than the preacher.  Being forgiven for sin doesn't make you a "better person", it just means that sin is forgiven.  That sin is still there, it is covered by forgiveness.

Unrepentant sin is the only "ok" reason for divorce that my reading of the Bible gives.  Some would say unrepentant sexual sin.  Such as a spouse is having a public affair and refuses to stop.  Divorce and remarriage would be permissible.

If there is an affair, it stops, forgiveness is sought, then there are no grounds for Biblical divorce.

We are supposed to deal with out own sin and confess it.  If we have sinned against another, we should go ask their forgiveness.

There is a structured process to confront someone about their sin, usually if it is affecting you.  Goal is to "win back" a brother to the fellowship, not punishment.

Note:  I actually think that "our" version is more private that Catholic approach.  Jesus knows, that's it. 

There are no actions, zip zero nada, that we can do to redeem ourselves.  Jesus is the only pathway to redemption.

Yes yes, there is a beliefs/works debate that will rage on forever.  I lean heavily into the James model that says we can look at "works" or "fruit of the spirit" to get an idea of a persons belief and salvation.  Some people will argue that works and belief are separate, I don't see how you can separate them.  The "works" I do and that you do could be very different, but belief should bring on some kind of works.

I could go on, but wanted to give a bit of a flavor.

Shame:  We should all be ashamed of the sin in our life and we should be grateful for Jesus sacrificing himself for that sin. 

Hope this helps understand where we are.

FF

[Daniell85]

I think I said before I have gone through this. As a result, my 22 year old son has cut me out of his life. He suddenly had a massive rage at me, and cited my abuse of his father ( ex husband) as one of the main factors.

I had been divorced for going on 12 years at the time. The ex husband had attempted, at the time of the divorce, to gain 100% custody of my son. He destroyed my life in the process, which was something he later told me was his intention. My business at the time was ruined, my credit was ruined, I lost all of my friends, financial devastation, not to mention the emotional and psychological damage to both my son and myself.

What I didn't realize at the time is once the ex lost his case against me, his efforts at parental alienation continued unabated. To my face, he was calm and "nice", while enmenshing my son into taking care of his father on a variety of levels.

And as it turned out, I was the awful one.

This stuff, even if I had know, I am not sure what I would have done. My son DID complain about his dad. I was careful not to tear the man down. The ex is an alcoholic, used drugs extensively prior to our marriage, and used to steal my medication from me if he thought he could get something from the effects. And that was even AFTER we were divorced.

I never wanted to ruin the relationship between them, I tried to soften the blows.

I was set up and sucker punched.

My own suggestion is to take a visit to a child psychologist yourself, discuss what is happening, and take advice on how to defray the damage. Your children may need a separate advocate outside of the situation... a therapist could be helpful for them.

[Notwendy]

Although in principle, repenting sin isn't supposed to be punitive or shaming, I wonder if someone with BPD perceives it this way ( and so would avoid it). It doesn't take much ( if not at all) to trigger these feelings.

In ACOA groups, we talk about the "God concept" we developed being raised in a dysfunctional FOO. Young children are not abstract thinkers ( and a full concept of God requires abstract thought ). They form their early God concepts on the models of their parents. Some of the members ( and this is a variety of religions) have had to re-define their own concept of God, because if their parents were dysfunctional, so are some of their ideas of God.

I mention this because if your wife and her FOO are dysfunctional, then even in Biblical counseling together, the same concepts could be interpreted differently by you and your wife. It is even conceivable that her own conversations in private with God are interpreted as punitive and shaming if her thinking is this pattern.

I also like Daniell's proposal of an independent advocate ( therapist) for your children.

[formflier]

 

Forgiveness is harder on the person doing the forgiving than on the person receiving it.

Well, that applies to "normal" people. 

I think my wife has issues forgiving me and others.  I think the anger just keeps building up.

Note:  I have been "unforgiven" on several things by my wife, boy, wouldn't that be interesting to discuss in Biblical counseling.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I think my wife has issues forgiving me and others.  I think the anger just keeps building up.

Note:  I have been "unforgiven" on several things by my wife.

To add my two cents on the forgiveness issue, I think pwBPD have a difficult time ever forgiving when they feel wronged.

I was a teenager when my mother was still bringing up the fact that my dad didn't install a screen door the year she was pregnant with me.

And though I say nothing about my husband's alcohol abuse and try never to criticize, when we have a disagreement, the words that come out of his mouth are "All you ever do is criticize me."

It's like their sense of time is somehow warped. What happened long ago, seems like a recent event when they want to use it as ammunition or justification.

I think the CPS event, FF, is likely to still be a fresh wound in your wife's experience, even though it happened some time ago.

[empath]

Although in principle, repenting sin isn't supposed to be punitive or shaming, I wonder if someone with BPD perceives it this way ( and so would avoid it). It doesn't take much ( if not at all) to trigger these feelings.

I think Notwendy has a good point. For those of us who are fairly well within the 'normal' range of emotional and mental processes, sometimes repenting sin can be challenging. When a person has a root of shame (I am bad), it can be nearly impossible without divine intervention for the person to have hope of changing. If an authority figure call them on their sin, it can create a very bad situation.

I say this from experience. About 5 months ago, we had lunch with our new pastor who had a letter for both of us from our bishop. In the letter, he mentioned that there were some sources that raised concerns about physical safety, and he explained that both of our ordination processes were going to be on hold while we sought counseling.

During and after the lunch, my husband was clearly suppressing his feelings and thoughts. He was mortified that other people had talked about things that had been within our home, and he decided that I had talked to someone. I became the problem rather than him seeing that he needed to repent (blame-shifting). I had been telling him that it was a problem for 7 months by that time, and he had just begun being able to admit that he was abusive toward me and the kids. By that time, I had been seeing a DV advocate for several months and had a decent safety plan and a good idea of what to do if things began to be physical again. It was a very tense time, and our church decided that he should continue his ministry responsibilities. I was encouraged by our pastor to not attend if it was a problem for me, so I returned to our former church (somewhere that I had friends and pastoral support) when I needed to.

My husband believes that he has repented because he said he was sorry and that I am being judgmental when I look at his actions for fruit of repentance. He continues to bring up divorce because he believes that I will divorce him (abandonment fears and lack of trust) and pushes me away.

The biggest progress that he has made is with learning about shame (Brene Brown and Curt Thompson) and about empathy (for one of his job projects). He has recognized that he 'has issues', big issues with shame. It is still difficult for him to refrain from having his feelings drive his thoughts, actions, and words. He at least is aware of the abandonment fears and lack of trust. He also has difficulties with forgiveness -- he will not set foot in our former church because the pastor hurt him by calling out some issues in his life (instability and lack of respect for me). He can't just leave the church, now, because he has vowed obedience, so he has to do something. If he wasn't obligated, he would probably have left a long time ago. He is also on an antidepressant which helps to keep him from just becoming a ball of emotion.

My husband's FOO was fundamentalist-type Baptists, and his dad was a pastor and a ACOA. He learned that Christianity was all about 'doing and saying the right things', outward appearances and not talking about the abuse that is going on at home. He is good at it.

[empath]

I think my wife has issues forgiving me and others.  I think the anger just keeps building up.

A key part of forgiveness is empathy, understanding the other person's point of view and experiences. For people who have difficulty with empathy, forgiveness is difficult as well. My husband has issues forgiving people as well.

[Fian]

I would think that Christianity has something that is fundamentally important for a pwBPD.  Yes, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," however we are also a "new creation in Christ."  We are called "saints" which translates to "holy ones."  We are no longer bound to sin and can choose to walk righteously.  Much of the new testament is calling us to walk as we are, not as how we were.

The Bible is also about love.  God loved us enough to die for us.  He obviously values us greatly.  When he looks at us, he is not disgusted at what he sees. 

If a pwBPD were to truly embrace and believe what I listed above, it would result in a radical change in them, as the core of BPD is self-shame.