The dance class decision

[formflier]

So, on the one hand I feel weird about discussing "problems" with a dance class at same time we are discussing parental alienation, but I think the "root" is the same.

Many weeks ago we found a community flyer with different classes.  Wife mentioned that she would like to do dancing.  I said that sounded like fun, but did not want to make any time commitments until we were bot  h onboard with our schedules.  (no idea what exact quote was but I communicated fun and no commitment)

At some point over weekend she mentioned class was fun and S13 had stood in for me.  I didn't pursue her or the subject.

This morning as she was heading out the door she says "Hey, we have class on Tuesday night.  I need to know if you are going or if I will have to take S13." 

Note, this is in front of S13 and rest of kids.

My response:  "I'll have to consider it, "

FF wife:  "But I need to know, "

my response:  "I'll let you know after I consider it, "

She huffed, and went out the door.

Tossed a couple texts my way after that that actually had please in it.  A few texts did not.

My gut says I say no and that I am up to finding classes we can both agree on .  This is same pattern of her figuring out what is going to happen with family and then allowing me to decide yes or no.

There was a hint of this even this past fall, but when I say hint I would say 80% of decisions were discussed and agreed on, with the rest being "Hey, I really want to do this, can you just say yes"

Now we are way north of 90% of decisions are "we" (her and kids) figure things out and then my decision is to come along or skip it.  Many times with threats of police or other authorities being involved if I try and do something else.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I understand you don't want to encourage unilateral decision making, however, taking the dance class would be a bridge toward rebuilding your marriage. Perhaps it's her way of trying to make a repair. After all, you will be touching and holding each other in public. I'd do it, if I were in your shoes.

[flourdust]

I understand you don't want to encourage unilateral decision making, however, taking the dance class would be a bridge toward rebuilding your marriage. Perhaps it's her way of trying to make a repair. After all, you will be touching and holding each other in public. I'd do it, if I were in your shoes.

This is a good point.

It's also possible to see it differently from her perspective. You both expressed interest in the dance class. The decision to attend the dance class is time-dependent, obviously, as it already started. Since she couldn't get you to say either yes or no by the deadline, she signed up for the class. She has decided to go to this dance class - a decision she is entitled to make. She is offering to let you come or to go with S13. The choice is yours.

This sounds remarkably like what you describe as your decision-making style, too. You've talked about how you're going to do things like offer her the type of marriage you can live with, and she can decide to come along or not. Well, she's offering you the dance class she wants to go to, and you can decide to come along or not.

[Notwendy]

I wouldn't dig my heels into this if I were you, FF.

l

Everything you do together does not necessarily need consultation between the two of you as to which one is mutually agreed upon.

This is the bottom line: Your wife found a dance class she likes. She really wants you to be her dance partner. The asking you in the form of you or S13 is her way of asking you because she feels defensive. People who are afraid of rejection use this style instead of the direct " would you be my dance partner?"

Even briefer: "FF, I would like you to please be my dance partner in class tonight"

This is a positive for goodness sake.

It's amazing but consider this: despite all the conflict between you- your wife is still asking you to be her dance partner?

Don't blow this one by overthinking it.

The other concern is S13. Now there is nothing wrong with a son dancing with mom at some event like his wedding, or one dance at something,  but as a regular dance partner in classes between couples, this is starting to cross a boundary. Even if there is nothing going on. It is that, developmentally, 13 is a time where teens need to start separating from their parents. They can not do this fully, but they start not wanting to hang out with their parents. They start to dress differently, identify with their peers. This was the age where they don't even want to be seen in public with their parents, forget going to dance lessons with them. And this is the time where emotionally healthy parents allow them to separate with appropriate boundaries. This is also a time of raging, uncontrollable hormones, and he is not in control of these feelings. Parents who are aware of this, physically back off from the affection at this time, not because they are creepy but this is when the cuddling, hugging, sitting on laps needs to back off. IMHO, this includes dancing all evening. Parents with BPD might see this as rejection when a teen starts to separate but it is a normal stage.


Your son may feel obligated not to leave his poor ( VICTIM OF YOU NOT GOING TO THE DANCE, DAD) mother alone.

DO YOU SEE THE TRIANGLE?

Mom, in front of son, tells you if you don't go, she will go with him. SON BECOMES RESCUER. Your wife is not doing this with some sinister alienation plan. She is being who she is, and she has poor boundaries and does not recognize your son's emotional/developmental stage.

That is not his job. No NO NO. Please, step up to the plate, dance with your wife, keep son out of this one.

[formflier]

Everything you do together does not necessarily need consultation between the two of you as to which one is mutually agreed upon.

But something does,

I struggle to remember something I proposed doing and then we agreed to do it, and something happened that actually resembled the idea.

And when I proposed it, there were options.

Tons of other classes, I was on a trip to bring last few things up and we were in communication.  I even asked questions about how the day was, what was going on and showing interest.  No word of this until after the signup and after the first class had happened.

Likely I will attempt to go.

We have tried other dance classes in the past and enjoyed them when we could attend, but I was "pushed" into agreeing, perhaps not as bad as this time, when there really wasn't time.  At the end of the day we attended about half of what we paid for

FF

[Notwendy]

and that is still half of the dance classes- which is better than zero.

The outcome of your agreeing to go isn't guaranteed. Also, maybe with someone with BPD, the way things are done aren't  done as well as you would expect them to, but the alternative to not trying dance classes, or getting into the details of the decision is no classes.

I get that you are precise. My H is too. But here is the catch. Not everything is a crucially exact decision. This may not be all BPD but also a difference in your personalities.

I can give an example. If I want to have a room repainted, I can spend all day looking at paint chips. My H wants a say in this - understandably, but when he has a say in it, he wants all the details to be precisely worked out to his specifications. But for me to do this, make picking out the paint into such an ordeal, I won't even try. It is exhausting to do this for what is ultimately, an emotional decision. " I like the color".  I haven't tried to get the walls painted in years because it is a bigger job to get all the details than the paint. Now, details are important but in the worst case scenario, we don't love it, and repaint it later.

What I wish is that he would just say " OK Notwendy, pick what you like".

We used to go out more, but he would have to know when, where, who is there, what should he wear. One time, heaven forbid, we were dressed too casually.

FF, honestly, if you want my opinion, you are overthinking this. She invited you to dance with her, and if you overlook this by focusing on the details or the kind of outcome you want, instead of what it is, this is a contribution to the relationship issues. This is not a military plan for battle with lives on the line. It doesn't need that much precision. It is an emotional decision on her part. She wants you there. Can't that be enough?

[formflier]

 

Yes, that can be enough.

When do I get my turn?

If I wasn't clear.

Step 1.  We have a dance class on Tuesday night.

Step 2.  Are you going to come.

There are times when she straight up asks me a question, there are other times she informs me of what is going to happen and asks if I will be compliant. 

The question about the dance class of this morning was asking about compliance.

I should be ok with going

FF

[formflier]

 

Notwendy,

Some very interesting parallels in our marriages.

Painting has been an issue for most of our marriage.

And I don't ever remember a time is was about the color.

It was about the time (multiple times) that I wished she would have used a drop cloth.  $75-100 of paint on the walls and hundreds of dollars of damage to the floor and furniture.  Once to include a piece I had just refinished. 

Painting without prep work (TSP or even an attempt to sweep off the wall) resulting in peeling and failed paint job.

I've flipped about 50ish houses, own a paint sprayer and have painted more walls than I care to think about.  Also have hired (and fired) tons of painters.

Anyway, hang with me here, my purpose is not to beat up my wife, I swear.  Anyway, when I tell you guys that there was a long string of things that indicated to me that she was and we were, getting better, painting was one of them.

She announced one day that she and boys were going to paint the house (last one we lived in), as in the outside of it.  I kept my poker face on but was worried where this was going to go.  Well, she asked me to explain to her how to do it.(yep, couldn't believe it either) 

So, they drag out the pressure washer, clean the house off and over a week or so put a kick ass paint job on it.  A couple of times she came to me to ask for assistance on really high stuff, which I happily did.  Then she and boys helped with getting our outbuildings done as well.  I was a bit more involved in that.

I kid you not, that paint job was one of the "markers" that I looked at to say things were really changing for the better.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

This is case of making the conflict SMALL instead of BIG.

Big conflict: She signed you up for a dance class without consulting you on your schedule. This is boundary busting behavior, and not something you want to encourage, or support.

Alt view of big conflict: She gives you a directive and asks you if you will be compliant.

Small conflict: Are you available for the 2nd dance class with her on Tuesday.

You can resolve the small one. Don't make the small one somehow "symbolic" or "precedent setting" for the big one.

"Yes, I would love to go to dance class with you Tuesday."

And upon going, you now know the schedule, and can schedule other activities around it, and probably make the rest of the series.

Add in a dose of radical acceptance.

1. Your wife is simply impulsive on things like this, signing up without taking the time to consult you. That is irksome, exactly the opposite of how you would do things or want her to do things... .but not terribly harmful in and of itself.

2. Your wife is feeling out of control in her life right now, and her preferred way of coping is trying to control you. Sucks... .but you know you can stand your ground when it matters, and don't want to make everything into a battle.

[Sunfl0wer]

I'm with what folks here have already said.

I am curious if meeting her 'on her level' will reap a positive result.  It reminds me of when your wife wanted to chat about something, I think you guys were in bed and you typically would say no to that time for chatting.  Yet you broke your typical MO, and you two actually had a positive result... .to your surprise.

While I realize there have been time in the recent past where your wife responded to a bit of pressure and choose more healthy as a result, and was making positive changes when she saw she could not simply 'get her way.'  I think you may need to switch gears from the 'mostly stable FFW' you have had for some time... .to: 'temporarily regressed FFw.'  Maybe a new RA is in order? (For this current presentation of wife)

I also wonder if she knows she is trying to 'bend you' some and feels more loved as she may see this as a 'loving sacrifice' on your part.  (Not saying the feeling will last, I just wonder if the element of her getting you to break out of your MO = love, to her.)

[Notwendy]

I think part of RA is accepting that our loved ones might not do things our way. Thousands of dollars in damage is one thing, but given the chance, something could also go well.

Before I was married, I was pretty handy. I have painted walls, put up drywall, and can do many things, however, I concede that my H is better at it than I am.  But that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy doing them, it is just hard to do something under the prospect of criticism if I don't do it all right.

I can imagine asking my H to go dancing, but I think he would be analytical like you, and bring up all kinds of perhaps logical points to discuss. But I emphasize- the decision would be emotional and impulsive- yet still an opportunity to share an experience. If this is the case, don't squash this moment by over thinking it.

[formflier]

 

We had another one of "those" talks last night.

Boy, last night, still trying to process that to see if I can make a coherent post out of it.

OK, I know I've put some weird ones up here lately, but I may be about to take the cake.

She seemed willing to talk and hang out, so I tried my best.  We watched a show she liked.  Then she wanted to talk about the people she met from c-list and bought furniture from.  They were so nice, etc etc.   Then she started explaining that they were high school sweetheart that had married other people, gotten divorced, found each other again and were so happy.  I didn't trigger, kept listening and being part of convo but she stayed on the 2nd marriage/happy thing for a while.

Well, it was time for me to go soak and get ready for bed, so I invite her.  She ended up taking a bath with me and then off to the bed.  Umm, listen for 20 years I've had a lot of sex with my wife but I have never seen anger and an orgasm combined, until last night.  I didn't say anything about it, all seemed good as we finished up.     

So, after all the festivities are over I have mask and splints on and she says, "hey, can we talk, "

I said sure and took off mask. 

ff wife:  "so, you never told me about your trip, "  (I have talked to her about it many times, but whatever)

She apparently wanted to hear it again, I mumbled through it.  She really didn't say much.  I put mask on and went to sleep.

Sigh,

[Grey Kitty]

  Sounds like a good job of meeting her where she is, when it is positive enough to engage with... .I'm really glad that taking your sleep mask/etc. off and talking with her went well!

... .along with serious and very understandable confusion on your part.

The anger brings up a very serious thought/question... .with the caveat that I'm not wanting you to go into the TMI direction.

When I think of your wife expressing anger before, I think of her aiming it AT you, in the form of abuse.

Feeling anger is a real part of being human. Expressing it that way is toxic and unhealthy. There are, however, ways of expressing anger which are real, genuine, and not destructive.

And... .this isn't one I've heard of before either.

However, *IF* she managed to express anger in your presence, without directing it AT you in an abusive way, that sounds like a very good sign. Especially if it is a new thing for her, which I suspect it is.

If I'm right about this, I really hope she can continue to express anger in your presence in a way that is safe for both of you. <ahem> Preferably under different circumstances... .

[Notwendy]

I know you have had a lot going on, but analyzing individual conversations, and decisions like going to a dance class, and an incident in the bedroom, may not be to the advantage of the relationship. I know that not having any control and all h*ll breaking loose isn't desirable, but this is happening even with your attempts to have things more regulated.

You may be an orderly military guy, your wife, an impulsive, emotional person, but your relationship is a combination of both of you. Looking at last night, you have a wife who still wants to get into the bath with you, have sex with you, dance with you. She is just more impulsive and unpredictable than you are comfortable with.

However, one may be connected to the other.

My H grew up in a stoic military family. Me- I am actually a mix of emotion and logic, but in comparison to him, any display of emotion was too much. So, after years of conflict over a spontaneous thing, like sex not going exactly right, or us going out not being dressed formally enough, or me putting up wall paper that he didn't like, my interest in sharing my emotional spontaneous side of me with him is diminished, and I have learned to be more controlled and stoic with him, and I can be less stoic with friends who seem more comfortable with that side of me.

I am telling you this, to be careful what you wish for because you just might get it. But it could diminish the very aspect of her that leads to her to still want to connect emotionally with you. You might like her to be more like GI Joe in the daytime, but you might also get GI Joe in the bedroom too.

[formflier]

GK,

I'll go with that,


Never heard of it before either,

FF

[formflier]

 

Notwendy,

There is a bit of circular argument to this, but please try to follow.

I'm good with spontaneous, when it is planned.   I know, I know,

And I'm good with it if I can evaluate the idea and no other big idea gets crushed.

Because if I go along with it and something bad happens, the blame is heaped on me.  Yes I am good at sidestepping and not picking it up but still I have made a conscious choice to accept the label and blame of not being spontaneous (enough) because that is far less painful than working through "you should have warned me/told me/not tricked me into doing that"

Plus, when being relaxed and "funny" she will hear me say something and since there is only 1 way to interpret what I say, kaboom.  Evening ruined.

One of the big attractors (is that a word) to my wife is that she was very go with the flow and spontaneous.  Now she is a "there is 1 way to do this and all other ways are failure, and its your fault if it fails, you get no credit if it goes well"

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Because if I go along with it and something bad happens, the blame is heaped on me. 

No, no, no, no, NO, silly man. You are COMPLETELY overestimating your own power to get blame heaped upon you.

Your wife does this because she's disordered and dyregulated. The idea that your agreement, tacit or otherwise has anything to do with whether you get blamed gets zero credibility in my book.     

And when you realize this, I hope it reduces your fear of adverse consequences when you do go along with something!

[Ceruleanblue]

I guess I don't get why you are hung up on this. It feels like you are getting into a p*ssing match with her. I mean, you did tell her it sounded fun, so she probably took that as agreement. I would.

BPDh made plans for us to do dancing classes, and I wouldn't have thought of not going. We had a fun time attending, and it was good for the marriage.

It sort of seems like you gave her the thumbs up, but now you are looking at it as if she's trying to control you. She probably wonders why this has to be a big deal. If I were in her shoes, I would. I often wonder that with BPDh. He'll seem agreeable to something, but then it ends up being a big deal later.

If I were you, I'd attend the dance class. Who cares who signed you up? I seriously doubt she did this as a control thing. If you signed up for a class meant for two, wouldn't you want her to go with you? Can't you just pick out another class that you both agree on, but still do this dance class?

I totally get what it feels like to live with a control freak, but I guess I just didn't view BPDh booking us for dance classes as something to view as "controlling", or taking over. I was just glad he wanted to do something with ME.

[Notwendy]

Avoiding being blamed is a big thing. It is shaming for someone with BPD. pwBPD will tend to blame others for everything.

But if you are doing things to manage being blamed- to avoid being blamed- its the same thing.

So, since you are wrong anyway, and everything is your fault  (tongue in cheek here) why not have some spontaneity anyway?  

Really, beyond BPD, I am trying to bring to light some issues in my marriage between two different personalities. Adding BPD to the mix can make these bigger. Honestly, I wish I were not so co-dependent as to have taken that side of me away from the relationship. Something I am working on is to be more authentic, and not be so reactive to his reactions. I am also trying to point out that we nons, in attempts to keep the peace, can be controlling and pw BPD don't like this any more than we do- and that can make our relationship issues worse.

Which is why, I am in favor of you just going to the dance! and not overthink it.

[formflier]

I guess I don't get why you are hung up on this. It feels like you are getting into a p*ssing match with her. I mean, you did tell her it sounded fun, so she probably took that as agreement. I would.

But, I didn't tell her that.  I told her it sounded like fun and there was no commitment, no license to go forth with my blessing, etc etc.

If I had just said "sounds fun, " or "sounds fun, let's do it, "

There was crystal clarity coming out of my mouth that no thumbs up.

Listen, if your hubby said "hey, that's a nice car" and you said "yeah, I like the way it looks, to bad we can't afford a car right now"

And then he brings you a brand new one home, would you think that is a big deal?

The concept is the same although I understand that a class and car are different.  

The big deal is the process is broken and the same process is used on dance classes and just about everything else.


FF

[empath]

In my case, the most recent example was his getting a storage unit against my objections. It is different because I expressly said that I was against it and he did it anyway and it cost us a monthly fee. This is something that happens fairly regularly in our marriage, and I was upset about it.

In your situation, you didn't exactly raise an objection, there was just a lack of commitment but a general agreeableness. It seems to me that this may be a genuine communication misstep. (assuming the best about her intentions) Sometimes, in my husband's eagerness, he misunderstands my communication, so I have worked on being very clear about things when I am objecting to something. Even then, he can impulsively do things that upset me; what we think should be clear may not be understood as clear by our partners.

Is there a way that you could work through it together, maybe changing the time or something?

[Fian]

I wonder if something else may going on here.  FF in another post you said you are starting to hate your wife after the garbage bag/van incident.  Do you even want to go dancing with your wife?

[Sunfl0wer]

There was crystal clarity coming out of my mouth that no thumbs up.

This changes things for me.  If you clearly expressed that you would not be interested, and she went ahead and booked it. IMO, she is being a bully and it is not a good idea to go along with being bullied.

If on the other hand you expressed indifference or the possibility of it being fun and she booked, sure, I expect my SO to show me more respect than that and I hear that is self centered of her, yet in the context of FFw, showing some flexibility when not being bullied may have a positive overall affect... .maybe.

After reading what D10 wrote, my radar is on and I am suspicious... .

Seems like another possibility is that she intentionally is trapping FF to help her play victim and fill the role of: loving wife who has to go solo to dance or with S13, because FF cannot be bothered.  Possibly this is just more evidence for her case against FF being a great husband and dad.  (Also holding him responsible that. She HAD to take S13)

[Grey Kitty]

The big deal is the process is broken and the same process is used on dance classes and just about everything else.

I agree. That is the BIG problem. However the small problem is still whether you go to a dance class Tuesday.

I think if you look at the small problem, you have a chance of a good outcome--you could have a fun evening dancing with your wife. (It might not go well, but there is a real chance)

I see addressing the big problem (how she makes decisions at you) directly with her is a guaranteed way to make your marriage worse.  1. It will be a fight. 2. If by some unlikely chance, you "win" the fight, and she does agree to involve you in decisions... .I'm sure that the "agreement" will fly right out the window within a day or a month.

When the game is rigged so you cannot win, don't play. Find a different game or change the rules.

Remember you can take either side on the small issue--simply telling her that you cannot do it Tuesday for (whatever reason), either because of a commitment that you cannot break... .or because you just don't feel like dancing with her, or you would love to dance swing, but absolutely hate the idea of a break-dancing class... .going against her in this way seems better than trying to fight out how she decides things. You have a way to "win" here, at least for yourself, even if it hurts your marriage. It still will hurt the marriage less than directly addressing the big issue.

[formflier]

I wonder if something else may going on here.  FF in another post you said you are starting to hate your wife after the garbage bag/van incident.  Do you even want to go dancing with your wife?

Ummm, this will sound like a dodge, but it is my best answer.

If the nice one shows up, I can think of nothing I would rather do.  It would be fund.

The nice one is is short supply lately.

FF

[formflier]

So, I went to dance class and it was fun.  Was a good decision to go. 

Got back home and it was like flipping a light switch, she ignored me and disappeared to "put the girls to bed". 

Didn't see her again until this morning. 

This morning would be an example of a time when I "pushed" a bit and she became tolerable.  First few things I said to her, there was no response, barely even looked my way.

After 30-45 minutes she spoke to me about nuts and bolts stuff.  Price of corned beef that I bought (as I suspected, I paid a premium) and a few other things like that.

FF

[sweetheart]

Hi ff, in reading your threads I was reminded of a link I read when I first started posting in Undecided.

My relationship and responses toward my h's dysregulations have many similarities to what is happening between you and your wife.

I too kept waiting for my stable, well h of the past to return so I could like him again. It was the feeling of dislike, intolerance and contempt that I felt for the person that he had become that I communicated to him in my every interaction, verbal or otherwise. I had lost my compassion and understanding and existed for many months just reacting negatively to his behaviours and his clumsy attempts to engage me. In short I forgot he was mentally ill, thought disordered and could not do what I expected from him. Really he could not do what I expected of him, neither can your wife.

Can you accept that where she's at for now is because of paranoia, confusion, distrust and BPD?

How she is, communicates the nature and degree of this illness.

It is a link about the stages a relationship in conflict goes through as it breaks down,  https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

[formflier]

Can you accept that where she's at for now is because of paranoia, confusion, distrust and BPD?

How she is, communicates the nature and degree of this illness.

It is a link about the stages a relationship in conflict goes through as it breaks down,   https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

I accept where she is at and I realize that I can NOT continue to live this way.  i'm not going back. 

I can work on myself all day long, and I do, but I can't carry the r/s and I won't. 

That is my choice.

My choice is informed by several other realities that I am dealing with, my health/disabilities, and I am faced with bad choices, but I have choices.

Much of what I was doing before to save the r/s was "for my kids" and also to honor my wedding vows.  The obvious toll that two months of negativity has taken on my health is shocking.  What good is doing stuff for my kids if I am not around to enjoy them and enjoy grandkids and all that? 

My wife and I are going to counseling and she will have choices as well.  I will work my ass off on stuff on my side of the dynamic, but if she chooses to ignore stuff on her side, that is her choice.  If she "can't", well, that's too bad and it will make me sad.

I probably sound a bit more negative than I mean to be, I am hopeful, there is a chance here for positive outcome.

But I also am "facing the facts" that there is a good chance we can no longer live together.

FF

[formflier]

 

I had read this before (the breakdown thing).

I'm in or almost in stage 4.  I peek around the stone wall and when "the nice one" shows up and come out and enjoy whatever good r/s time is out there. 

There have been a few times when I was still hurting, the nice one showed up and I made a choice to not engage and just lick my wounds.  "most" of the time I engage and try to do something positive.

FF

[sweetheart]

And ff I understand where you're at, I really do. I suppose I was checking that you fully understood that a lot of the choices you are making are not really stemming the bleeding, or helping your w return to baseline functioning.

It's a really sucky place to be, I remember peaking out from that wall too, ever hoping that my h as I first knew him would return.

He came back eventually, but never as before but for me that was ok. I realise for you that this isn't what you want and I can hear I think that compromise is no longer an option either. It's tough for sure.