My D10s essay

[formflier]

So, periodically I (we) monitor our kids internet usage.

Below is what D10 has written in her google docs.  Sigh.  She has shared it with my wife but obviously not me.


Start of writing

on the weekend my aunt (aunt's name) and my cousins had come from tennasee and we were watching a movie and we had it down to where we could not even hear it and I was like right at the tv.

then my dad came out and said we needed to turn it down or turn it off.and so we said that we could not even hear it so I was thinking if we can not hear it then how can daddy.I think he just did not like the fact that we were watching tv and when he came out he said we were holding his sleep hostage I did not think that was true we were not holding his sleep hostage we were just watching a show that we had to turn down so much we could not hear.it made me feel scared because daddy scares me and I have had enough of him doing this it really scares me so much I just want it to stop.and he called his dad over to the house to claim it was his house and that we had to do what daddy said and we had to go to social services because had called them and said that mommy was abusing us but she was not daddy actually was and so he had to leave the house for a while

end of writing

[Ceruleanblue]

Not sure what to make of that? Is your wife able to coach her to the extent that she really is afraid of you, or could you come off as scarier than you think you do?

I had a Dad who was a yeller, and could have a scary temper, but it was never directed at my Mom, just mostly at situations or things he was working on. I know witnessing it as a kid could be scary though, and maybe your daughter is picking up on the fact that you were obviously upset, or possibly yelling?

Lots of families have issue with the TV volume. Can compromise be reached? Can you wear ear plugs, if the TV truly is that close to where you sleep?

It is pretty clear that your daughter is not sharing your view of the event itself, and I'm assuming her view matters a lot to you. Parental alienation is so common in divorces, or when things get rocky in a marriage. BPDh and I have witnessed this first had with his grown kids.

[formflier]

 

much of that stuff I have heard my wife "coach" the kids on in front of me and when I have been "put on trial".

Earplugs don't work, tried them.

I'm totally open to suggestions, multiple sleep studies, tried all sorts of things.

It is well known to me and my family for several years the conditions under which I have a chance at a good nights sleep, no secrets here, only choices.

When others choose to try something else, 100% failure rate of me sleeping.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Her 'reality' seems quite coincidentally the same as her mom's.

What is the context of this doc?  Is it part of other pages of a personal diary type doc? 

As a 10 year old girl, I did not write in such a style to only convey 'facts.'  I was often writing about my feelings to sort them out on a situation.  I find it odd that she does not discuss her happiness about the show she was watching or the dynamics that played out right before the event or her feelings about how they played out after.

The writing style is not displaying a range of interest or emotion.  Sounds either coached... .or staged for someone to read.  Does not sound a thing like something she wrote for her own personal use.  It does not sound at all like the casual language style of a young girl.

If I were 10 I may write something more similar to:

My cousins were over, we finally got to watch the episode of xyz that we were waiting for so long to see.  Rita was beng annoying, I am not sure why this time, maybe she was cranky, it was late for her but she does this so much it still annoys me.  I liked staying up late even though it was a school night, sometimes even mom can be cool. Our fun got ruined when dad came out to tell us to keep it down.  After that, things went ballistic and I never got to see the end of the show, I'm still wanting to know how it ends so I can tell Amy at school.

While upsetting, not exactly new info.  Mom has been trying to hijack everyone's reality to be hers vs their own. 

What do you suspect?  What does your guts say?

Do you think the mission to get the kids in her reality is regular BPD stuff?  Or evidence of a bigger agenda?

[Sluggo]

Her 'reality' seems quite coincidentally the same as her mom's.

What is the context of this doc?  Is it part of other pages of a personal diary type doc? 

As a 10 year old girl, I did not write in such a style to only convey 'facts.'  I was often writing about my feelings to sort them out on a situation.  I find it odd that she does not discuss her happiness about the show she was watching or the dynamics that played out right before the event or her feelings about how they played out after.

The writing style is not displaying a range of interest or emotion.  Sounds either coached... .or staged for someone to read.  Does not sound a thing like something she wrote for her own personal use.  It does not sound at all like the casual language style of a young girl.

If I were 10 I may write something more similar to:

My cousins were over, we finally got to watch the episode of xyz that we were waiting for so long to see.  Rita was beng annoying, I am not sure why this time, maybe she was cranky, it was late for her but she does this so much it still annoys me.  I liked staying up late even though it was a school night, sometimes even mom can be cool. Our fun got ruined when dad came out to tell us to keep it down.  After that, things went ballistic and I never got to see the end of the show, I'm still wanting to know how it ends so I can tell Amy at school.

While upsetting, not exactly new info.  Mom has been trying to hijack everyone's reality to be hers vs their own. 

What do you suspect?  What does your guts say?

Do you think the mission to get the kids in her reality is regular BPD stuff?  Or evidence of a bigger agenda?

I agree with sunflower... .it has the style like someone older wrote it for a particular intention.  Perhaps compare it to some of her other entries that have nothing to do with you and see if they match up.     I assume since you and wife both have password that she could write in it just as easily as she could.   

Not sure if you have the access to talk with them... .but you could ask her... .I am sorry I got angry the other night as I am grumpy when I am tired. Will you forgive me?  ... .How did you feel when I said that... .  if she doesn't answer... .  Did I scare you?

[Daniell85]

Absolutely compare the writing style of this document with her other essays.

I agree with the other posters. It's too direct and emotionless for a child who is actually writing out an upset.

[Grey Kitty]

This represents pretty serious parental alienation here.

From how you describe it, your wife at a minimum saw it, and more likely, coached/manipulated her in this direction.

Best case I can think of, your wife thought this was OK, and appropriate for a school assignment, and didn't say a word to you about it, and that is pretty bad. It only gets worse from there.

Also, best case, this is the result of your wife being emotional/impulsive/etc. and twisting reality to fit her feelings (you are painted black right now, or were when she was involved with this essay).

However there are some far worse cases here, and while they don't fit what I know of your wife / marriage, they are possible. Time to be talking more to your lawyer, preparing him, you might need to pull the trigger on some legal filings, FAST. Also time to understand laws about parental alienation.

Have you posted anything about this on the legal board? Lots of very good, hard-headed, practical advice for this kind of thing there.

[formflier]

 

couple posts over there and some good talks with my L. 

this was written a couple weeks ago, will try to match up what was going on.

I will compare writing and see what I think, will be tomorrow when I have time and privacy.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

I wonder what your thoughts are towards any 'action' you want to take?

My thoughts... .

Probably best not to bring up the topic just because you uncovered the essay.  My suspicion is that this will just bring forth the issue again in her mind to sort out, and last time she sided with mom's reality. 

It is not likely that conditions in the home have created a situation that makes D10 feel any safer now siding with any other reality than mom's... .so why reinforce what she already 'sorted' out?  It can make things worse by reemphasizing a false memory. Or even if she doesn't think it a true memory, she will likely still be reminded of feeling in the middle of the mom/dad conflict... .and feel crummy.

In a PA dynamic the child wants to bond with both mom and dad, however, if she feels her relationship with mom is a threat to bond with dad, then she will severe her feelings for dad to not be devastated to loose mom.  For to bond with dad means a loss of mom, and mom is reprogramming her to see dad as a threat.  Your D is choosing the only 'safe' option to her psyche.

Are you familiar/versed in PA education?

It had been a little while since I read up on the PA stuff, but finding ways to reconnect with bonding and positive bonding feelings with FF is the thing to do.  These opportunities do not at all need to be related to any incident. 

I wonder if you can find opportunities when FFw is not around to allow D10 some safe bonding time?  I wonder if D10 siblings can have a positive influence on her opinion of FF in some way that may need facilitating.  For example, if older kids are comfy expressing FF is cool, then have D10 tag along when older kids are likely to enjoy FF. D10 may feel unsafe enjoying dad directly, but may feel more at ease seeing older kids enjoy FF in some way.

[flourdust]

Well, I actually HAVE a ten year old daughter. Your D10's writing looks comparable to what I've seen in my daughter's diary and letters. It may or may not have been coached, but it also may or may not represent real alienation. My daughter often feels caught in a tug of war between us -- she'll turn on her mother when she's upset at mom, and she'll turn on me when she feels that I'm the one who is causing the tension. She loves us both, but she hates being caught in the middle.

I have only seen one really clear time when she was coached. A few hours after she told my wife she was scared of her, my daughter came to me and said "I didn't mean it when I said I was scared of mommy." I asked her if mommy told her to say that, and she said "No... .well, yes, but it's true." Kids that age can be coached but that's not the same thing as being brainwashed, and they definitely can't hold on to a cover story for very long.

[teapay]

I also have a D10 and I could easily envision her writing something like this without being directly coached based on the situation you described.  From her perspective she is only seeing being forced to turn the tv down or off when she wants to watch it with her family/friends and then see the drama of the grandpas.  She is not fully comprehending a "why" behind it or at least your prespective.  I'm often seen as the "killer of all fun" because I have to enforce the order and discipline in the house since my W ability to that has deteriorated.

You know your D10 and can probably judge if she was coached  or influenced or not by your W or if it is genuinely how she feels.  Either way it is good information to have. 

[Notwendy]

This gives me the chills. I would cry if I found this letter- not just because it was about me, but because even if it was about either parent, it shows how much the conflict is effecting the child. I did find some notes from my kids, even younger than this, about the fighting between us that they heard. One of them did blame me for it. I also could tell in the kids that as soon as I discussed something with my H that triggered him, and his tone of voice changed, they would plead "stop fighting".

It tried to see it from their point of view. From their point of view, they saw me as the one who triggered him into getting angry. So they assumed it was my fault, not his being easily triggered into anger. What the fighting was about were those endless circular discussions that went nowhere. Eventually I would start to cry, from frustration or the things he would say in those moments, and that tended to make him madder in the moment. If he raged, it was frightening. He was not physically abusive- we all knew that he would not physically hurt anyone, but he could get angry. From the kids' point of view, it could look like I started it.

The kids are my bottom line. I grew up with this and I was determined to stop this, in any way I knew how. At first this meant doing all I knew to stop the raging. I literally stopped saying much of anything to my H, and became a doormat. This is co-dependency, but it was all I knew to do at the time. I know now that kids can pick up on conflict regardless, but I choose to try to diminish the arguments and yelling in the only way I knew how.

Later when I had "the talk" (dating, sex) with a child, the response was " I don't think you and Daddy love each other". The kids are sharp and know more than we think they do. By that time, we had consulted a MC. The verdict was that I was co-dependent. I was angry at first, that I was targeted, and that the raging, lack of communication was not, but I saw in the long run, that it was up to me to change my part in the conflict. I also at this time was very motivated to not model co-dependency to the children. My response to my child was an honest ( the kids knew about my BPD mom) response that I didn't grow up with a good model for relationships and that I was working hard at learning it, and that their parents were in MC to help do this). I felt that if I was to make a difference, I would role model learning and getting help for them, instead of secrecy and denial- like in my FOO.

Parental alienation was not a concern for me as I was the main caretaker. I know that neither my H or I have spoken negatively about each other to the kids, which is a good thing. However, the kids have eyes and ears and they saw the issues between us.

So here is my take on the letter. While one response is to suspect your wife, I would like to emphasize that regardless of who they think is the problem, they are negatively impacted by the conflict in your relationship. Considering who is at fault for this, or who looks like the good guy or the bad guy, is not focusing on the main message of this letter: The kids are distressed- your child.

Your kids see more than you know, and less than you know. If the good times between you and your wife happen mainly in the bathtub/bedroom, then they don't see this, ( and they shouldn't)  only the arguments.

They could be subjected to alienation, or they see things from a different point of view, including seeing things about both their parents - including you- better than you can see yourself. Where is your focus on your relationship with them?

With this much stress, do the kids have any access to counseling- for them- someone to listen to them without the input from the parents- so they are safe to tell it as they see it?

I don't see this note so much as being about you, or about your wife, but about your kids.

[Cat Familiar]

My disclaimer: I took care of my mother for several years after my dad passed away. In the process of doing that, I can't tell you how many times I said to others, "My dad must have been a saint for putting up with her for so many years."

As a young child, I frequently attempted to mediate in their disputes. I really don't remember my dad starting the arguments, but he did attempt to make rational sense out of what she was saying. (Who wouldn't? This was long before Borderline entered the common vocabulary. She wasn't crazy because she could hold down a job. So there must be some sense in what she says. That was the status quo then.)

After a while, the lies and distortions would try his patience and he, too, would get angry.

I remember the vein on his forehead would stand out and make a "V" and I would get scared. He never touched her, seldom raised his voice, though angry, always seemed in control. But from a child's perspective, he was so big that I was frightened.

I knew how out of control Mom got. But I saw that regularly and I knew what to expect. It was really scary when Dad got angry. I didn't know what could happen.


FF, you are dealing with a child's perception and size matters. If your children have regularly seen their mom blow up, they probably aren't so worried about her. But seeing you angry can be unpredictable. Yet another aspect of the BPD conundrum which is completely unfair. That BPD spouses use children as shields or witnesses is so wrong. But what can you do to mitigate the damage?

[formflier]

 

Think football lineman build.  I'm 6 foot 2 and around 250lbs right now.  I get that.

I've listened to the recording of the "sleep hostage" night several times and I would describe my voice as authoritarian/directive and not as yelling or hollering.  During the second wake up I would say I hollered my FIL's name in an attempt to get him to focus on me.  I then went back to authoritarian saying his actions were making noise and preventing me from sleeping. 

Shortly after that he assumed "sugar ray" stance started hopping around in front of me.  So, yes I did yell and yes I do understand that from the POV of children milling about that it was scary.

I'm totally open to what to do, please suggest.

My current strategy is to clearly say it shouldn't be in front of kids and clearly say what is happening that is wrong and to disengage.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

It's horrible to find yourself in that position, FF. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If you back down, then you set a precedent.

If you assert yourself, even keeping a modulated voice, then you can come across as "scary".

It's a totally f*up situation that your wife has put you in, as you well know. I agree with Notwendy that the children would benefit from seeing a family therapist, but it sounds like your wife has put the brakes on anything but her choice of counseling.

Having grown up as an only child with a BPD mother, I decided as a young woman never to have children because I had no positive role models. I figured that I'd either do exactly as I was raised or that I'd do a 180 and either choice would be bad. So, I encourage you to get them into therapy because they might make some choices later that they will come to regret. (I don't regret my decision, but had I married a non, I might really have enjoyed having children.)

[formflier]

 

I'm an only child as well.  I don't think my mom or dad "had" anything.  My mom's Mom (grandmother) was a handful but I attributed that to a rough raising where 16 kids survived childhood and very limited education.   I think her family pulled her from school in 7th grade to work in fields and house.  Basically poor southern farmers making the best of it.

My Mom is over the top about fixing a lot of food and "pushing" food on everyone.  I am pretty sure she was hungry for a lot of her childhood. 

Looking back I think my parents used boundaries to insulate me from that influence, but we still visited and it was obvious she had issues.

My Dad was and is devoted to my Mom.  She was college professor he moved to area to continue chasing her and eventually convinced her to marry him.  She worked over 40 years at same institution and my Dad mostly did banking (several different jobs) plus our involvement in family farming activities.  

The entire r/s made and still does make sense to me.  My mom set the standard (a high one) for the kind of man she would marry and my Dad happily jumped over that.  Mom's field is limited and the area was a great place to raise a family (still is) so they stayed.  Both were very open that they could have made more $$ other places but would have sacrificed family environment.  The were content and I had a wonderful childhood and dreamed big dreams.  

Even in high school I said to my buddies that I wanted a big family, so none of them in my graduating class are surprised at 8 kids.

So my model is to be hardworking guy that provides and to let the woman sort out home decisions.  This worked well for 15 years.  I have no model for a woman sorting out home decisions that were wrong (IMO) and for a couple years I was really invalidating as I argued my points.

Anyway, I don't want to assume "victim" stance.  I do have choices.  I don't like any of the choices that I see me having.

I guess my biggest worry is that my wife gets "a little better", in counseling.

1. If she stays the same or worse, and refuses to make choices for herself then my Dad files eviction on both of us and then writes a lease with just me (and some strong language excluding my wife and her family).  That provides a house I can sleep in and that my kids can stay at.

Custody and enforcement will be a big mess, but in some form the family survives.

2.  If she gets tons better or back to the way it was before the move, then I'm ok with staying together.


I like number 2 but that is not in my control.

FF

[empath]

I had a situation with my d11 recently that showed me what was in her heart. My husband was escalating and talking loudly about separation after I expressed hurt that he didn't communicate with me about some basic information.  :)11 heard us and started crying,  so afterwards I talked with her. She was scared because her dad was being unstable and she was worried that I might agree with him(and that he might hurt himself again). She seemed to need one parent that she wasn't worried about.  I've been more aware of making sure that I seem okay at least to her. The kids are smart enough to know things are not good. Try not to feed into the craziness.  The thing that comes to mind is meekness - strength under control.

[empath]

Also, I was wondering how you got a copy of the essay?

[formflier]

Also, I was wondering how you got a copy of the essay?

It is in her google docs.  Periodically I (we) will poke around in our kids computer browsing habits.  I don't have facebook so my wife monitors that more that I do.

So, I scan her gmail I scan her google docs and see lots of things for school and then see one that looks interesting, and I opened it, and here it is.



FF

[Notwendy]

I'm totally open to what to do... please suggest.


I hear a lot about you, and your relationship with your wife, but what about the kids?  This note is an insight to their distress.

I would not have thought anything like that about my father. At age 10, I pretty much knew my mother had issues and I could see it. I was also terrified of my father's anger, but the only thing that scared me about my mother getting angry was that she would get Dad "on her side" and Dad would get angry at us. I was not so much scared that he would hurt me- he would never do that, but of not having his love and approval which I wanted.

Like Cat, in the sum of it, what he put up with, was superhuman strength and tolerance. The question I do have is- why didn't he step up for me? Why did he let us suffer emotionally on account of their relationship? A philosophical question- why didn't my father SEE me? I don't mean in the physical sense, but emotional. We kids loved him and we were hurting. This is what motivated me to do everything I knew how to to stop what was upsetting my kids, even if I didn't do it exactly the best way.

Whatever dysfunction got passed on to you and your wife from your FOO's that connected the two of you to each other, is setting the example to your children of what a relationship is like. You have one chance at this to make a difference to your children, especially your daughters. Because I accepted being ignored, emotionally, by my parents and learned that I had to keep them happy to be loved by him, I accepted this in my relationships. Do you want your D to take the dysfunction she sees at home into the partners she attracts and is attracted to later on? Even if she dates according to your religion, there is no religion on the planet that is exclusive of dysfunctional members, and if all she knows is dysfunction, she will find people that match it.

It matters less who she thinks is the problem, then that she sees a problem. This is your chance to make a difference to her by SEEING her, not you, not your wife.

[Grey Kitty]

I knew how out of control Mom got. But I saw that regularly and I knew what to expect. It was really scary when Dad got angry. I didn't know what could happen.

This perspective from the eyes of a child is eye opening. That your wife's tirades are "normal" and "understood" even if they are damaging, and when it actually gets under your skin and YOU get upset makes a big difference.

Remember that children DO see what is going on, and DO understand, especially the unwritten rules in the household. They completely understand that, and the power dynamics.

And YOU, FF, are doing something that is turning their world upside down, and it probably unsettles them quite a bit. You are changing how you relate to your wife. Changing the game.

Yes, the changes you are making are very good, very healthy ones, and absolutely needed to have any chance of saving your marriage, and yes, I'm cheering you on, and hoping to give you some insight into how to do it better.

You still need to (internally) acknowledge that it is changing the landscape for your kids, and that there will be some distress and adjustment to it.