Convincing and influencing

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi friends.

First, a quick background before I get to the problem.

I’m divorced 6 years with 50/50 care of 13yo son.  I came across this board just after I left my ex, and learned and followed the advice to communicate with her.

My ex has a propensity for conflict and a heightened sense of entitlement. She seems incapable of seeing someone else’s point of view or questioning herself whether she would agree to what she’s expecting. Her roadmap for getting what she wants is to ask first, demand second, involve our son as the negotiator third, accuse/threaten fourth and escalate to nuclear levels fifth, until everyone is exhausted.

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Lately, my ex has had a growing behaviour of convincing our son to want what she wants or take on her perspective, and then he expresses her wants or her perspective as his own.  He is worded up with her emotion charged delusional yet convincing point of view, then he takes on that perspective and tells me he really wants something (that just so happens to be what she wants).  She’s seemingly convinced herself that they “think alike” and “have the same values (sic)”.  And that I need to “hear what he wants” and “show him respect”.  You can imagine how he’s being manipulated and how I’m in a position of either giving in or being the bad guy, which just perpetuates her “us versus him” manipulation further.

An example might be our son really wanting his mother to pick him up from school on my day or when I've already made plans, because “we haven’t spent a lot of one on one time together lately and we’re going to my favourite restaurant.”

(Another recent example which doesn’t explain the impact to me but shows the level, is my ex recently had a falling out with her brother - yet another falling out with someone in her life - and now suddenly my son is “scared” of his uncle and wants nothing to do with him anymore.)

As a side note, when I do give in, it only ever causes more unreasonable demands and issues (give an inch and take a mile). So from being nice I end up having it thrown in my face, often literally with a barrage of verbal abuse.

I know I don’t have examples of any great extremity, but it’s just petty, controlling, game playing that's been happening more and more. As he’s getting older and his intellect is growing, I feel like it’s a race between him being completely brainwashed or he figures out what’s really happening.

Has anyone had any experience in how best to deal with this influencing/convincing/manipulating behaviour?  How can I help our son recognise that he’s just being used and influenced?  She is VERY convincing and always has the advantage of getting her perspective in first because I don't.

Thank you for reading and for any advice

[Concord]

Hi friends.

First, a quick background before I get to the problem.

I’m divorced 6 years with 50/50 care of 13yo son.  I came across this board just after I left my ex, and learned and followed the advice to communicate with her.

My ex has a propensity for conflict and a heightened sense of entitlement. She seems incapable of seeing someone else’s point of view or questioning herself whether she would agree to what she’s expecting. Her roadmap for getting what she wants is to ask first, demand second, involve our son as the negotiator third, accuse/threaten fourth and escalate to nuclear levels fifth, until everyone is exhausted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lately, my ex has had a growing behaviour of convincing our son to want what she wants or take on her perspective, and then he expresses her wants or her perspective as his own.  He is worded up with her emotion charged delusional yet convincing point of view, then he takes on that perspective and tells me he really wants something (that just so happens to be what she wants).  She’s seemingly convinced herself that they “think alike” and “have the same values (sic)”.  And that I need to “hear what he wants” and “show him respect”.  You can imagine how he’s being manipulated and how I’m in a position of either giving in or being the bad guy, which just perpetuates her “us versus him” manipulation further.

An example might be our son really wanting his mother to pick him up from school on my day or when I've already made plans, because “we haven’t spent a lot of one on one time together lately and we’re going to my favourite restaurant.”

(Another recent example which doesn’t explain the impact to me but shows the level, is my ex recently had a falling out with her brother - yet another falling out with someone in her life - and now suddenly my son is “scared” of his uncle and wants nothing to do with him anymore.)

As a side note, when I do give in, it only ever causes more unreasonable demands and issues (give an inch and take a mile). So from being nice I end up having it thrown in my face, often literally with a barrage of verbal abuse.

I know I don’t have examples of any great extremity, but it’s just petty, controlling, game playing that's been happening more and more. As he’s getting older and his intellect is growing, I feel like it’s a race between him being completely brainwashed or he figures out what’s really happening.

Has anyone had any experience in how best to deal with this influencing/convincing/manipulating behaviour?  How can I help our son recognise that he’s just being used and influenced?  She is VERY convincing and always has the advantage of getting her perspective in first because I don't.

Thank you for reading and for any advice

[Thunderstruck]

Hi Concord 

Yes, we have the same problem over here with my SD11. She is very enmeshed with her uBPDbm. She believes everything uBPDbm says even though she knows (and has said to me many times) that uBPDbm is a liar. It's frustrating.

We have 50/50. This weekend was supposed to be uBPDbm's. Thursday she sent a message asking to switch weekends. We said we can't, because we have plans with SD next weekend, but we are free to watch SD11. uBPDbm said she had to "work" (she's currently unemployed) and she was "devastated" to not spend the time with SD11. We picked SD11 up late Saturday night and she had spent the entire day with friends, not even with uBPDbm. Then she's asking "Why am I always with you, why can't I see my mom?". Her mom tells her it's because we won't "let" her. In reality, she made plans to leave the state with her friend during her parenting time. It sucks when you follow the court order and plan your life, only to be made the bad guy.

I get the small, petty things that add up. That's hard, because it's many multiple frustrations that courts would perceive as forgivable, instead of one big nasty thing that you could take action on. So you feel "stuck" living in the situation.

[Nope]

We are put in the same position here as well. It's the exact same process you described except she usually skips the asking and goes right to demanding. And when it comes to the kids she absolutely counts on us to not tell them the truth we've tried all sorts of ways around being the bad guy (short of explaining to them that their mom isn't doing what she's supposed to do.) But now that they are 11 and almost 13 we are considering telling them a lighter version of the truth from now on.

Example: They have been convinced that their mom should get six weeks of summer because when they lived with her their dad got six weeks. Instead she is only getting two weeks and the kids will want to know why. Instead of trying to just say that this was an adult decision that they aren't part of, we might try explaining that she could have had six weeks if she had done the things the court order says she has to do. That their dad would have been happy to give her that time but she needed to do her part. Since she didn't there is nothing he can do about it. Making court the bad guy is something that I've seen brought up here as a solution a lot. An attitude of "the rules are the rules and even the adults need to live with them" hopefully will put everybody in the same boat together.

My advice is to never deviate from the parenting plan or court order. That whole giving an inch and having them take a mile thing. And I feel like BPDs don't handle inconsistency well. At least in my case she seems more disregulated by wiggle room and uncertainty. So having strong boundaries and being consistent is best for everybody. She may blow her top at first but over time she'll stop testing and if she gets to the point where is isn't testing anymore maybe she'll also stop dragging the kiddo into it quite so regularly.

[bravhart1]

^^Agreed. Don't give in to the changes, it's just the start to the slippery slope.

Here's my example of how we handle this exact same problem ( they are nothing if Not consistent)

SD was having a birthday, the actual day fell on our parenting time. Mom was given three hours that day to see Birthday girl. A week before the day of, mom asked SD to ask if she could have the night before her birthday and the whole birthday, and would get her back to us the next day. So we wouldn't see birthday girl at all on actual day, and lose two custody days. Mom had her on the birthday the year before and would have her on the birthday the next year, this was our turn. We said no. So mom told daughter she planned a BIG family party, with 50 guests who were all going to be in attendance but no birthday girl. We had a very sad six year old on her birthday, who believed she was missing out on FIFTY presents because that's how mom framed it. We had our regular sized party, she saw mom for an hour and a half, mom brought her back on hour and a half early for no reason. And when we saw SD again after going back to moms she informed us that "everyone took their presents back because we wouldn't let her be there", it was gross manipulation. We just continued to ask her why her mom would plan the party when she wasn't there, and did that make sense? And did she think her grandparents would take their present back if she wasn't there? She eventually came around to question mom why it was planned that way which mom couldn't answer. It also opened Sd's eyes to the wrongness of moms requests, and versions of the " truth".

Its important to stay vigilant to the manipulation. And if mom continues to pursue this very destructive means of coercion I would get a therapist involved asap. The enmeshment and manipulation does bad things to kids heads over time you could be dealing with more than a hostile ex. In the future if this continues.

[Concord]

^^Agreed. Don't give in to the changes, it's just the start to the slippery slope.

Here's my example of how we handle this exact same problem ( they are nothing if Not consistent)

SD was having a birthday, the actual day fell on our parenting time. Mom was given three hours that day to see Birthday girl. A week before the day of, mom asked SD to ask if she could have the night before her birthday and the whole birthday, and would get her back to us the next day. So we wouldn't see birthday girl at all on actual day, and lose two custody days. Mom had her on the birthday the year before and would have her on the birthday the next year, this was our turn. We said no. So mom told daughter she planned a BIG family party, with 50 guests who were all going to be in attendance but no birthday girl. We had a very sad six year old on her birthday, who believed she was missing out on FIFTY presents because that's how mom framed it.

Now that is an example I can relate to!  And it's this scenario that ends up ruining so many special times, with the conflict and pressure building up for weeks beforehand.  Unfortunately, further to your example, I just don't know if my ex will pick him up from school or sabotage a changeover, so she has him for the birthday.  So it really does go right up to the moment before I know if everything will be ok.

Your response to your daughter is similar to my approach too, just simple "playing dumb" common sense responses rather than getting emotional or attacking back.  Obviously inside it's not so calm.

It's very rare that I do end up giving in to unreasonable demands, but she keeps trying none the less.

I guess my question is, do I make more effort to "guide" him into the light and if so how?, or do I just continue with the passive "he'll figure it out" approach. My concern with option 2 is he's getting older and is being sucked into her game.

[sanemom]

Just be careful you aren't falling into the PA as well by explaining yourself.  Ask questions to get them to use critical thinking skills.  Just telling them the truth doesn't work.

In our case, the kids just have decided that all adults lie to them because they don't know which story to believe.  It is so frustrating.  We stopped telling them our version for that reason--BPD mom always makes sure it backfires.

Even in therapy, this latest CPS allegation came after we told them some truths (with the counselor) about what the judge said in court.  It is like the closer they get to knowing what the truth is, the worse her PA gets.

[bravhart1]

here's one conversation about the birthday... .that actually happened.

"So SD, you know we have a very set schedule from the judge with the dates you will be with mom and the dates you will be with dad ( she knows this all TOO well as she and mom have poured over it numerous times so mom can lament her unequal time to SD )

So if we have this schedule, SD, and we KNOW your birthday is coming up, why would WE ( not mom) plan a birthday party for a time when you ARENT with us?"

SD answered, well you wouldn't. So then the next logical step is to ask her why do you think mom planned the party ( btw I hope everyone here is getting there was NOT a party) for a time when you aren't with her? Then SD says, IDK and asks us why. I only say, IDK either, we can't know what others are thinking unless we ask them. Otherwise we are just telling ourselves a story which may or may not be true. (See how I sneak in some extra non magical thinking stuff)

So I suggest she ask her why she would do that, and flip-o-change-o, SD is now asking the right person the right question, and we didn't say anything bad about, BPDm.

Sometimes it's harder, we've dealt with it all. But for the most part we just seem confused when Cornered about changes in scheduling, like " well mom knows we can't change the schedule, so I'm confused why she is asking". Which is why we are all saying DONT allow changes, or she will just use that as an example of you allowing changes in the past. Then it's used against you as to why you refuse to allow change in the future, all the while never addressing that BPDm would NEVER allow a change to HER schedule to accommodate you.

It gets much more murky, and they use different opprotunities to try different stuff, which is why I will say be adamant that your child needs a therapist. You need someone to help you navigate this stuff and document the PA as it begins and ramps up. And sorry but it's going to ramp up, you are describing a pretty classic case, enmeshment, using the child, and coercion, etc.

Best of luck!

[Nope]

SD answered, well you wouldn't. So then the next logical step is to ask her why do you think mom planned the party ( btw I hope everyone here is getting there was NOT a party) for a time when you aren't with her? Then SD says, IDK and asks us why. I only say, IDK either, we can't know what others are thinking unless we ask them. Otherwise we are just telling ourselves a story which may or may not be true. (See how I sneak in some extra non magical thinking stuff)

So I suggest she ask her why she would do that, and flip-o-change-o, SD is now asking the right person the right question, and we didn't say anything bad about, BPDm.

Does your SD actually ask her mom the hard questions? When I go through something like that with SD12 about something her mom did that makes no sense to her and I tell her that it's a question she should ask her mom she always answers "I'd rather not." With us she's a pretty typical know-it-all preteen who challenges us with questions about every little thing we do or don't do. Yet she seems too afraid to ask her mom questions that might expose her nonsense.

[sanemom]

Does your SD actually ask her mom the hard questions? When I go through something like that with SD12 about something her mom did that makes no sense to her and I tell her that it's a question she should ask her mom she always answers "I'd rather not." With us she's a pretty typical know-it-all preteen who challenges us with questions about every little thing we do or don't do. Yet she seems too afraid to ask her mom questions that might expose her nonsense.

I think sometimes they don't want to ask because deep down, they know it is nonsense, and there is something about that they do not want to face.

[bravhart1]

The one thing my darling SD is not afraid of is confrontation. She learned that from her momma, and her momma do love a fight. They do nothing (did nothing ) but bicker constantly. You never saw a kid more disrespectful and willing to stand up an adult than my precocious SD. ( ya, makes for some fun times for a old dog like me)

So yea, she will. We will see if that continues as she gets older, or if things change in their relationship after the break.

[Thunderstruck]

I have an example, hot off the presses!

We are on a 2-2-3 schedule. Last weekend was uBPDbm's time. Then we have Mon/Tues, she has Weds/Thurs, then this weekend is our time.

Last Thursday she asked to switch weekends. We said no, we had plans but we are free to watch SD11 for her. She claimed she had to work (she was fired over a week ago  ) and that she was "devastated" to miss the time. She said we would pick SD11 up at like 9pm on Saturday night. Then she demanded in exchange the weekend that we have SD during spring break. We said no, if you want us to watch her then you can forfeit the time.

We pick up SD11 Saturday night. She had spent the entire day with a friend. She said her mom was still working at the place where she got fired and they went there to pick up a suitcase so BPDbm could "clean it".  

Sunday night SD11 was talking to her mom, and her mom mentioned being at a restaurant that we don't have near us. SD asked BPDmom "Where are you?" and BPDbm pretended like there was something wrong with the phone and she couldn't hear SD.  

The reality of the situation is... .DH and I found out that uBPDbm went on a trip out of town. She left Sunday and didn't get back until today. (We then expected that we were going to be watching SD Wednesday night)

On Tuesday, SD asked her mom "Are you picking me up tomorrow?". uBPDbm said "That's the plan!".

Wednesday morning, we get a message asking us to watch SD because "I might be stuck here late". (Stuck where?).

Imagine SD's surprise when I show up to pick her up. In the car on the way home she kept asking "What is my mom doing that is SO much more important than me?". Usually at this point I defend BPDbm, but yesterday I practiced validating SD. "It sounds like you're upset and frustrated." SD asked me where her mom was, I said I don't know and I didn't bother asking because her mom doesn't tell us the truth about things.

Last night SD talked to her mom and BPDbm claimed she was working and had just got home. Then BPDbm said "I told your father I wanted you on Friday but he was so mean and said no. You should tell him you want to see me on Friday. I told him I wanted to switch weekends but he said no to me. I don't know why he has to be so mean to me." Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

After the phone call, SD seemed relieved and was happy to believe the lie. I pointed out that usually when BPDmom works, she leaves SD home alone and not with us. I didn't push it though. She would rather believe the lie about BPDbm working because it means that she wasn't ditched without a second thought (even though she was).  :'(  

[bravhart1]

Could you point out to SD that BPDm made plans and asked for your weekend without consulting you and that you would never " presume" to encroach on her weekend without finding out if it was okay, and that you would not presume, then call names just because you didn't get your way?

Cause jeez, that's messed up. 

[Thunderstruck]

Could you point out to SD that BPDm made plans and asked for your weekend without consulting you and that you would never " presume" to encroach on her weekend without finding out if it was okay, and that you would not presume, then call names just because you didn't get your way?

Cause jeez, that's messed up.  

SD11 asked on Saturday about switching to be able to spend time with her mom, and we told her about our plans. And she's very excited for them and didn't ask again. Tonight she might half heartedly go along with her mom and say "Oh yeah, I want to spend time with you" just to appease her. Which of course uBPDbm will escalate into "She hates it there and wants to be with me". 

SD11 was saying at dinner that her mom had "more important" things to do than be with her. We asked "If Daddy and Thunderstruck couldn't pick you up, would you feel the same way?". "No, because I know if you guys couldn't pick me up it'd be for a good reason. My mom just wants to go out with her friends and stare at her phone." SD was upset that her mom doesn't pay attention to her.  :'(

uBPDbm sent another message asking for/demanding a "make up" weekend. We said we were disappointed that she lied to SD11. Her response: "I never lie to her. That's you. You're projecting again."

It just shows you how we're dealing with sick people here. It's very sad, the damage that they do and they don't even realize it.

[bravhart1]

Oh I must be full of piss and vinegar this morning cause that just gets my blood boiling.

How dare she! I would probably make this MUCH worse and engage by asking what EXACTLY is she referring to about  you lying!

My concern is that she shows that to SD and if there is no response then it looks ( to a 11 year old) like you lied and she was right cause you didn't respond. But like I said, I'm not thinking this through, I'm mad at that for you.

[Nope]

The thing I try to always remember when dealing with situations like these is that the kids gain absolutely nothing by knowing their mom doesn't really care. (I know she does really care, but her bain doesn't work the way it should so that doesn't show, but it's impossible to explain that to a child.) The only thing a kid gets from seeing the truth is feelings of worthlessness and abandonment. I mean, if the person who gave birth to you doesn't see your value, then maybe you just don't have any. Best to shelter kids from this as long as possible.

The latest in my world is that I found out from the kids that BPDm told them during their visit with her that her boyfriend has never seen our area so they are planning a trip to our state in April. But they want it to just be their time so they won't be seeing the kids while they are here. She has not come to visit them even once and the earliest she'll see them in her state again is June and she's talking about coming down here but not seeing them? SD12 said she totally understands the need for adult time. Our need to set her streight was almost overwhelming. But really, what good would it do?

[bravhart1]

That's so sad, cause we both know that at 12' that kid does understand more than they let on.

What a peach.

[sanemom]

The thing I try to always remember when dealing with situations like these is that the kids gain absolutely nothing by knowing their mom doesn't really care. (I know she does really care, but her bain doesn't work the way it should so that doesn't show, but it's impossible to explain that to a child.) The only thing a kid gets from seeing the truth is feelings of worthlessness and abandonment. I mean, if the person who gave birth to you doesn't see your value, then maybe you just don't have any. Best to shelter kids from this as long as possible.

The latest in my world is that I found out from the kids that BPDm told them during their visit with her that her boyfriend has never seen our area so they are planning a trip to our state in April. But they want it to just be their time so they won't be seeing the kids while they are here. She has not come to visit them even once and the earliest she'll see them in her state again is June and she's talking about coming down here but not seeing them? SD12 said she totally understands the need for adult time. Our need to set her streight was almost overwhelming. But really, what good would it do?

That makes good sense, Nope.  The ONLY thing I wish could happen is that these kids could lower their expectations so they would not be so disappointed all the time.  But overall, you are right--right now it would be all about a feeling of abandonment and worthlessness.  They totally would not get that their sick parent is not well and it has nothing to do with them.