Could a 12 step group be a bad influence?

[empath]

My husband has been going to Celebrate Recovery for a little over a month now, and he is participating in an associated 12-step group for men who are recovering from sexual issues (his 'issue' is his recent limited use of p). He has described the group as men who are in various stages of separation from their wives and significant others due to their issues; some are divorced, some are separated, some are in-home separated.

As is common with pwBPD, my husband doesn't have a stable sense of himself or the perseverance to see things through. in the past, He has changed his views and presentation of himself depending on who he is around and whose approval he is seeking; he thinks he is codependent and a people pleaser (he will admit those things). So, I have been a bit concerned about his participation in this group, but I feel like there is outside pressure that is very pro-12-step group.

Over the past month or so, he has been withdrawing more from the relationship; talking about divorce, taking pictures of himself down from our display, being away from home more often, etc. At the same time, he is meeting with the guys from his support group more often, adding another meeting with them outside the standard group. During a recent conversation, he said that he had been looking for apartments for himself and working on getting himself ready to live on his own. He also said that he was concerned about me talking to 'women who had divorced their husbands'; I was confused by that comment because there isn't anyone who I'm talking to who had done that. The women he was referring to were widows, and I said that.

My concern is that this 12-step group that he is attending seems to be influencing him toward becoming 'like them'. His past patterns, current behavior, and his 'projections' on me seem to indicate this might be going on. I'm conflicted about how to handle it because normally, it would be a good thing for someone to be seeking out a support group and working on their issues, but it also puts him in a group of people who are not working on their issues in the context of a marital relationship. For people who have a more stable sense of themselves, I think it is a good thing, but for those who don't, it could influence them toward a negative solution.

I don't know how I can bring up this type of thing without invalidating or shaming my husband. I want to support him in his efforts to change... .

[Grey Kitty]

I'm personally kinda skeptical of the concept of sex addiction, and very skeptical that the 12-step programs for it are ever helpful. I do think that 12-step programs for substance abuse CAN be helpful, although I've seen some research suggesting that they aren't very helpful for most people.

I do believe that 12-step programs for codependency like CoDA and Al-Anon can be much more helpful, although individual meeting groups vary quite a bit.

That being my general opinions, in this case I think your assessment that it is a bad influence on your H, and that he is projecting on you sounds very accurate.

And I'd say that you aren't likely to improve your marriage by pushing him to stop going to these meetings. I'd recommend one of two courses of action:

1. Don't discuss it with him, and if he brings up the 12-step stuff, tell him that you support him, but think that his recovery is really his issue and you don't want to interfere/meddle in it.

2. Consider telling him JUST ONE TIME that you are concerned about the bad influence on your marriage. If you want to do that, how about working out what you want to say and how you want to say it here, in advance... .we are here to help! Read up on S.E.T. or give yourself a refresher if you've used it before:

TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

[Notwendy]

I have been around 12 step groups for a while, and they can be different even if they follow the 12 step protocol. One reason is that they are lay groups with lay members. Also the members can be very different from each other. I have found the whole range of people, some who I think really have it together after a lot of work. These are the ones who I think would really encourage your H to look at his own issues. However, someone with BPD might not gravitate to one of these people or tolerate doing the kind of personal work they would advocate for.

There are also members in the group that I would not gravitate to, or choose as a sponsor. Also people who come to them do have issues with addiction, enabling, and co-dependency, and so, if they paired up would enable each other. The members in the group can not control the choices of the other ones.

I have had a sponsor, but this sponsor was not an enabler. She was real, honest with me, and called me on my dysfunctional behaviors. This is exactly what I wanted, however, I don't think someone with BPD would choose that.

IMHO, I think 12 step groups are really helpful, but it takes personal work on the part of the member to make them helpful. And, I agree, they aren't the choice for everyone.

I also think that looking for companionship and friendship is not the main purpose of the group, and that it could be possible for dysfunctional members to become friends and influence each other. But the 12 step group isn't the problem, it would be the choices of those members.

[empath]

I also think that looking for companionship and friendship is not the main purpose of the group, and that it could be possible for dysfunctional members to become friends and influence each other.

The leaders of the group are encouraging companionship and friendship outside the group. I think that is probably not very helpful because it isolates them from more 'normal' relationships and such.

[Notwendy]

My groups have social get togethers as well. Many of the members are friends. But our groups are led by really seasoned people who are doing this to pay it forward. I hope most groups are like this.

Yet, the 12 step is not a cure for dysfunction or mental illness. It is like any other thing- motivated people who are working on themselves will use them for self growth. Mentally ill people will function in them as mentally ill people.

I think these groups take motivation, self awareness, and the ability to be honest with a sponsor- and also to be able to tolerate a sponsor working with you on "character defects". These are traits I can not imagine someone with BPD having. I do think someone with BPD would be attracted to the group for self identity, but would make little progress when it comes to working on themselves.

So, the in group socializing works with motivated people, but it isn't the primary purpose of the group. I can see how they would tend to hang out with each other- after all, members of the group can feel a mutual understanding. But to form an "us against them ( family, spouses) " is triangulation. Dysfunctional people could use the group in that way.

One thought about the things your H says about moving out and things like that may be his identification, as a mimic of others, but they may just be fleeting thoughts at the moment. My mother with BPD will announce unrealistic plans and ideas. I used to react to them, but she rarely follows through. So I don't know how serious your H is when he says those things. My mother also has such a weak persona that she can imitate the words and ideas of others, but they aren't her ideas and words, so they don't mean more than that.

To answer your question- do 12 step groups encourage such separation from family members- I would say I have not heard of that. It would not be according to the mission of the 12 steps to make these choices for others. In fact, if I vented about my H or someone else, my sponsor immediately turned the mirror on me, making me responsible for my part in it. Projecting/blaming someone else is counterproductive.

But groups of people can be functional or dysfunctional. We have all heard of church groups, or organization groups that do great things and then there are some that veer way off course.

[unicorn2014]

Long story short: no. Is this a legitimate 12 step group? If you want to message me the name of it I'll let you know my opinion of it. I disagree with GK on this one, I think sex addiction is VERY real. When you say p I am guessing that's a 4 letter word that ends in n?

[Notwendy]

I googled Celebrate Recovery, and if it is the group your H is in, it may incorporate some of the 12 step principals, but it would not be under the umbrella of the classical 12 step groups as far as I am aware of. The classical groups- AA, CODA, ACOA have a protocol for how they are run, and as far as I know, they do not include anything extra- additional principles, religions. There is an aspect of the 12 step groups that includes spirituality and the original AA book was written by Christians and includes some references to Christianity. However, members are free to decide on how they wish to interpret that and to have their own religious views. The term for God is "higher power" not a specific religious term for God. There is no emphasis on a particular religion. The leaders are lay people, not clergy.

Celebrate Recovery does not call itself a 12 step group. I don't think it can, because it includes other aspects. It is a religious ministry. It looks like pastors are involved to some extent ( not sure what) . The website states that it is based on the words of Jesus, but that is not the sole basis for AA.

I know nothing about this other than it is not a classical 12 step group. It could be good or bad, like any other programs. Considering the mission, it makes me wonder why they would encourage disengagement from marriage, or divorce as your H is speaking of. Knowing that pw BPD can misinterpret things, I wonder where he got this, if it is even accurate Or, this particular group of people is taking its own direction.

[empath]

I'm not sure how serious he is either; if he made a decision,  it would be a major departure from his stated values. I think he may be trying it on, but he is in significant distress about our marriage with lots of shame triggers.

The group is associated with celebrate recovery, and it is completely lay-led. From what I understand,  the CR meeting is on a different night than the group night, and it is very structured. I don't think that the leaders are encouraging disengagement from the marriage;  it is probably more something that the SOs of the guys initiated.

Yes, his stated issue is p-n; it hasn't been a significant thing in his life for years. However, with the stress in our marriage,  it returned briefly. He feels very ashamed of that, but it is also an "acceptable" issue for guys. He did say that the guys' list of things they are recovering from seems to grow longer each week.

[unicorn2014]

If I may, please don't associate "celebrate recovery" with any of the anon programs. There are very good anon programs to help with sex and love addiction: SLAA and there's even a group for partners of sex and love addicts.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm not sure how serious he is either; if he made a decision,  it would be a major departure from his stated values. I think he may be trying it on, but he is in significant distress about our marriage with lots of shame triggers.



The group is associated with celebrate recovery, and it is completely lay-led. From what I understand,  the CR meeting is on a different night than the group night, and it is very structured. I don't think that the leaders are encouraging disengagement from the marriage;  it is probably more something that the SOs of the guys initiated.

Yes, his stated issue is p-n; it hasn't been a significant thing in his life for years. However, with the stress in our marriage,  it returned briefly. He feels very ashamed of that, but it is also an "acceptable" issue for guys. He did say that the guys' list of things they are recovering from seems to grow longer each week.

I'm not Christian. I know many who are, and I have a lot of respect for how their faith directs them toward living their lives.

My concern is that this kind of group will continue to trigger his shame, and send him deeper into an unhealthy spiral of hating himself for what he finds arousing and what he desires.

You may have different beliefs and values than I do--I'm pretty far out there in some ways. But whatever you think, I'm here to support you and offer you some perspective.

And I think the most important perspective is that you should tread lightly as far as steering him away from this group--because it is his choice, and better left to him than becoming another fight between the two of you. I'm going to re-iterate my first recommendation for you, in light of my increasing belief that this group isn't good for either your husband or your marriage:

1. Don't discuss it with him, and if he brings up the 12-step CR stuff, tell him that you support him, but think that his recovery is really his issue and you don't want to interfere/meddle in it.

2. Consider telling him JUST ONE TIME that you are concerned about the bad influence on your marriage. If you want to do that, how about working out what you want to say and how you want to say it here, in advance... .we are here to help! Read up on S.E.T. or give yourself a refresher if you've used it before:

TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

[sweetheart]

Hi empath,

I'm wondering whether this is less about the 12 Steps group and more about the mirroring tendencies of pwBPD.

It doesn't make it any less difficult for you to know how to deal with it, but it might reduce your concern about the group. I suspect, I can't know for sure that how your husband is behaving would happen in any group. Given that you are already aware that he has a weak sense of self.

The Austrian psychoanalyst Heinz Kohut in the 1940's developed self psychology and a definition of mirroring. Here is a link from this forum that discusses mirroring https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58298.0

GK's suggestion that you use a SET format to tell your h your truth about how you feel one time is a good one.

Ultimately though your h's therapy is his business. Whilst accepting that, I understand is going to be hard if he continues to behave as he is.

[empath]

I generally stay out of his personal issues; it hasn't worked for me to try to insert myself into his efforts.  One of the good aspects of his group is that he realizes that he can be real with other people and he is still accepted - and that he won't dissolve into nothingness if he is alone. I figure that it is good for him to actually be seeking help from other people. I've been telling him that I support him in this effort and that I don't want to be in a position where I'm telling him what to do.

I happen to agree that some/many Christian programs can make it more difficult for people to make progress. From what I've heard, this group seems to offer a good balance of love/acceptance and the need for changing our thoughts, words, and actions. If it were giving him more shame, I would probably say something about it because it wouldn't be a place that would be helpful to him or us. He knows that shame prevents growth.

[empath]

Hi sweetheart,  the mirroring tendency is my concern. In the past, my h has had a mentor who had some issues that influenced my h feelings and thoughts. Those things are now being addressed and corrected - by other people  (not the cr issues), but they have caused problems for our marriage.  He also doesn't have a good way to evaluate others; that is most likely part of the weak sense of self.

[Grey Kitty]

I generally stay out of his personal issues; it hasn't worked for me to try to insert myself into his efforts.

 

I think I'd approach this somewhat as a boundary enforcement issue--Think about it, notice what sort of influences he seems to be bringing back... .and make your assessment.

If you don't have good reason to believe it is making things worse, no action is required.

We can all hope that it actively helps him... .but if all it is doing is taking up some of his time for no real benefit, there is nothing good of bringing that up to him, unless he were to honestly ask you about it, and maybe worth evading even then!

From what I've heard, this group seems to offer a good balance of love/acceptance and the need for changing our thoughts, words, and actions. If it were giving him more shame, I would probably say something about it because it wouldn't be a place that would be helpful to him or us.

If it were causing real damage, like this example, or something else, then carefully speak of it, using best tools and practices, once and back away--it still is his choice.