You attract what you project

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Do you think that you are on the same level of emotional maturity as your ex BPD partner?

We are all here on different levels of our healing path.

We all view our partners in a different light and perspective. So, I am very interested to see your responses and thinking about this subject.

Based on my observations in stories on this board and my personal experience, I really think that the statement from the title is true.

I am emotionally mature as she is but we have different manifestations of this (un)maturity. This is one of the main reasons why I am in therapy which started right after the breakup. Even in that moment when I left I knew that 'my walls' have fallen. I knew that something in me changed and that I am a different person.

I really believe that you cannot fall deeply in love with a person with BPD and have no emotional problems. 

[blackbirdsong]

Do you think that you are on the same level of emotional maturity as your ex BPD partner?

We are all here on different levels of our healing path.

We all view our partners in a different light and perspective. So, I am very interested to see your responses and thinking about this subject.

Based on my observations in stories on this board and my personal experience, I really think that the statement from the title is true.

I am emotionally mature as she is but we have different manifestations of this (un)maturity. This is one of the main reasons why I am in therapy which started right after the breakup. Even in that moment when I left I knew that 'my walls' have fallen. I knew that something in me changed and that I am a different person.

I really believe that you cannot fall deeply in love with a person with BPD and have no emotional problems. 

[krax]

I agree with you. I've fallen for women with BPD traits all my life. I turned to this message board the first time 5 years ago, I was so in love with this woman, but I was miserable. Finding this place made me see in a more clear light. It took me 2 years to heal, and I kind of just pushed everything away.

Now im here again, making the same mistandes. But this time I Dont feel resentment for my ex, what she did to me etc. I've come to realization that im as much to blame for the failed r/s as her. And after reading the book "the human magnet syndrome" im starting to see my dysfunctional childhood and that I have alot of work ahead of me.

[GreenEyedMonster]

People with narcissistic tendencies and people with abandonment fears are a common match . . . made in he11.  It makes sense when you think about it.

The narcissist wants someone with few expectations, whom he can ignore at his will, who is concerned with being the "perfect" mate lest he or she be rejected.  I was narcissist bait when I left my last relationship, which I clearly recognize.  I had been kicked to the curb in some really terrible ways before this, and I was ready and willing to "earn" my way into a relationship by being a perfect girlfriend.  I spent money on this man like you would not believe.  My mother baked things he liked.  We went on vacations together.  I put my own sexual satisfaction second to his.  I cleaned up my house when he left a mess, almost every time he visited.  And I kept doing more and more because if I was the perfect girlfriend, he couldn't dump me, right?

Wrong.

I have learned that I need to develop a more internal locus of control in my life so that I don't feel the need to earn my self worth from others.  I have told others to do this over the years and clearly I need to follow my own advice.  On the bright side, I know that the problem is him . . . since I tried my best. 

I think my ex sensed that I was ready and willing to "earn" his love and that is what he wanted.  I was always the one to assume the risks in the relationship because of my own desperation, which saved him the trouble.  I have dodged a couple bullets after that because I have seen other people do the same thing.

[troisette]

Hi BBS - I think we have emotional frailties and that's why we are susceptible to relationships with disordered people.

But I don't think emotional maturity is a flat plain - age 3, 5 or whatever. I think it's hills and valleys, we can be emotionally mature in some areas and not in others.

I recognise that I have a wounded 3 year old inside me, damaged when my father died and fearing subsequent abandonment all my life. This compounded by being raised in a dysfunctional family where I saw violence and experienced bullying within a needy and ungrounded family was causal in becoming a co-dependent.

Yet there are other strands of my emotions that have matured into adulthood. And of course, as a classic baby boomer, there is a part of me that will never grow old!  

Hope this makes sense!

[Thread]

I also agree with a lot of what the others have said. I learned in therapy there are a few factors of what I put out there that attracts this sort of disorder BPD. I also realize a few ex boyfriends probably most definitely had BPD.

1. I lived in a codependent household and have those type of behaviors a bit

2. I also feel I need to earn my self worth

3. I was also raised in a dysfunctional family with my parents constantly fighting in emotionally abusive ways and sometimes even my mother throwing stuff at my dad or dumping drinks on his head at the dinner table. I hated dinner time. My parents were both not emotionally mature.

4. My mother and sister are undiagnosed BPD which my therapist was able to see the commonalities with them and my husband and me trying to get the approval I never got from those relationships and now with my HBPD

- I was so used to the behaviors my husband BPD felt safe and comfortable. How we are raised really effects who we choose as a significant other. When BPD may be an obvious red flag to other people who have not been brought up in that kind of BPD home, to me it is just normal.

So again I agree to an extent, but also think there are a variety of factors involved.

Apparently my anxiety issues are also something that attracks BPD partners I forget why my therapist said that was a common thing. Maybe the insecurity thing I don't remember.

[GreenEyedMonster]

Apparently my anxiety issues are also something that attracks BPD partners I forget why my therapist said that was a common thing. Maybe the insecurity thing I don't remember.

I think there is definitely a correlation here.  Anxiety makes a person want to try to control a lot of outside factors, and pwBPD at first feel within our control because we can "earn" our place in their lives by giving them what they want.  If I'm feeling anxious, I just give my BPD partner attention, sex, money, a vacation, something . . . and I get instant reassurance that he is still there.  Also, people with narcissistic tendencies are attractive because they can give anxiety-laden folks a voice in a world that seems overwhelming to them.

[blackbirdsong]

I am thinking about this topic intensively last few days. It is correlated with my work in therapy.

You can call this generalization and disagree but I am convinced, based on everyday reading different (but again the same) stories here (on different r/s type boards) that huge (and I really mean a huge) number of members here have very strong narcissistic traits (including me). It is not just codependency. People here often like this term: Codependency. It sounds like: "I am a really nice guy who lets others to exploit me." Codependency is just a symptom of more broader cluster. BPDs also have codependency issues.

The main difference is whether we are somatic (body type) or cerebral (mind/intellectual type) narcissist.  

This is the main reason why are we attracted to BPDs (or they to us), why we had so intensive r/s, why we fall in love, and why is it so hard to let it go.

My opinion is that whoever has the same path as the one described in the previous sentence should consider to have strong narcissistic traits.

The main problem is that narcissist doesn't admit his traits as something bad or even existing.

I did some deep introspective work last few months and I must admit that I recognized and discovered different traits in myself.

But guess what, now I recognize them but I am not even sure that I can suppress them, because like BPD, they are part of my personality.

So, all these stories here that I read in the context: "Leave it, man, it is them. They have BPD. Just continue your life, you are a nonBPD person. They will never be happy. You can.", I find them very noncontributing to our healing.

You can call it bad period in my healing, but I think, however difficult BPD recovery is, the same difficulties are ahead  each of us also.

[SmarterNow]

Maybe this true for all of you... .I did not project anything.  I had what appeared to be a normal relationship with someone until I learned they have BPD.  I didn't put up with a bunch of pushing and pulling, ranting... .nothing.   She was great for nearly a year and then suddenly disappeared... .only now do I see the many BPD traits after doing research 

Not everyone on here needs to blame themselves for some other person's personality disorder.  Some people just didn't know this screwed up disorder existed and couldn't have possibly known their partner had the emotional maturity of a 6 year old when it really counted.  I'm sure there are several dynamics in play when disorders come together, but that isn't the case for everyone and today I am not in the mood to hear I may have been at fault when 100% I was NOT!  It was her and her BS disorder ... .nothing else.

[C.Stein]

You can call this generalization and disagree but I am convinced, based on everyday reading different (but again the same) stories here (on different r/s type boards) that huge (and I really mean a huge) number of members here have very strong narcissistic traits (including me). It is not just codependency.

Every human being has some traits of every personality disorder otherwise we wouldn't have a personality.   It goes without saying some nons have their own problems, disorders, whatnot ... .but let us leave it to the professionals to determine that and try not to paint with such broad strokes when talking about pwPD and nons.

[GreenEyedMonster]

You can call this generalization and disagree but I am convinced, based on everyday reading different (but again the same) stories here (on different r/s type boards) that huge (and I really mean a huge) number of members here have very strong narcissistic traits (including me). It is not just codependency. People here often like this term: Codependency. It sounds like: "I am a really nice guy who lets others to exploit me." Codependency is just a symptom of more broader cluster. BPDs also have codependency issues.

I think you are on to something, blackbirdsong.  I also think that is why we see so many websites about BPD that are focused on making the pwBPD a terrible person inside, painting them black, so that narcissists who fall into relationships with them can continue to avoid responsibility and feel like heroes.

As I said in my post above, people with abandonment fears (BPD and others) are narcissist bait.  We will do anything and say anything to make you love us and not leave us.  We *like* being someone's supply, because that gives us a solid role to fill and a sense of being needed.  (Being wanted or liked is never enough for someone with abandonment fears -- need is the only thing that makes us feel secure.)  Looking back over my own life, I think my abandonment fears have placed me in the crosshairs of more than my fair share of narcissists, and I started experiencing my first discards before I had even finished middle school.

OTOH, a narcissist would enjoy being a rescuer, a hero, the special person who could save someone when no one else could. 

My ex, whom I now consider to be more of a narcissist, had a previous relationship with a woman who was probably full-blown BPD.  She had cycles of intense relationships where she would return to exes, drug use (that eventually put her in rehab), and got engaged to my ex after talking to him on the internet for 10 days.  My ex claimed once to have stayed on the phone with her for almost 10 hours to keep her from committing suicide.  She was eventually the one to call off their engagement.  He took zero responsibility for anything that happened in the relationship, and claimed to be a victim.

So I filled the role of the pwBPD in his life because of my abandonment fears.  I don't check all the boxes, for sure, but it was enough to feel familiar and comfortable to him.  Heck, on our first date, he didn't even pay for me, and I came back for more.  I showed up to one of his performances as a fan, hoping desperately that I wasn't being annoying!  That marked me as good supply from the very beginning.

[blackbirdsong]

Maybe this true for all of you... .I did not project anything.  I had what appeared to be a normal relationship with someone until I learned they have BPD. 

Maybe you really didn't. I am talking about many stories here. What is a common thing to the most of the stories here (based on my personal opinion, you don't need to agree with it).

Not everyone on here needs to blame themselves for some other person's personality disorder. 

Where did I say this?

She was great for nearly a year and then suddenly disappeared... .only now do I see the many BPD traits after doing research 

A bit confused now. So you found these BPD traits also great? And defined them bad only when their appeared under BPD symptoms context?

Some people just didn't know this screwed up disorder existed and couldn't have possibly known their partner had the emotional maturity of a 6 year old when it really counted. 

You see, this is also was my main problem. I also had this opinion. But the problem is that all those BPD traits that you already mentioned actually are signs that she was emotionally immature. And we also have some aspects of emotionally instability for not recognizing this. There are reasons why she ended up with you and stayed 1 year. My opinion again, you don't need to agree.      

I am not in the mood to hear I may have been at fault when 100% I was NOT!  It was her and her BS disorder ... .nothing else.

OK

[Lifewriter16]

Hi Everyone, 

It seems to me, that now I am aware of personality disorders, I see them almost everywhere and I have to remember that it is a matter of degree that determines whether a person receives a diagnosis or BPD/NPD/ASPD/HPD or not and many people we discuss on this site haven't been diagnosed and could have sub-clinical traits (like us).

I'd like to add another possibility into the melting pot and that factor is that people with personality disorders may also tend to make relationships with 'geeky' people who seem to have more limited choice in relationship partners due to compromised relationship skills or shyness.

This can include people with asperger's syndrome (including myself and possibly others posting here). As a person with AS, I tend to be more emotionally reactive than the average person and have difficulty with self-soothing. I have empathy but may get distracted from being empathic by my rational side (and likely cause pwBPD plenty of unintentional hurt). And I can also have poor executive control. There is quite a cross-over between the conditions and I am discovering the full extent of that and having to come to terms with the negative things that I am discovering about myself. AS is a developmental disorder (perhaps BPD can be seen in a similar light) and is not considered to be a personality disorder. However, personality disorders can be co-morbid. I wondered if I had BPD because I do the push-pull thing and look to others as a way of soothing my emotions. So I did the self-diagnostic test on this website and it seemed to indicate that I tend towards having Dependent Personality Disorder which also involves some of the push-pull behaviour seen in BPD. In actuality, amateur and self-diagnosis is a very complex and potentially damaging occupation. We can, however, become aware of our behaviours and endeavour to change those things that do not serve us.

To me, what it boils down to is that all of us bear responsibility for our own actions. A behaviour that would be okay with a fellow non can be simply triggering to someone very sensitive (including those with BPD who may not be as irrational as we think they are... .we just don't understand them because they think differently to us). Eventually, the repeated hurt that we cause them, leads them to withdraw from us. They often give us many chances before they withdraw completely. Who are we to say that they shouldn't be hurt by our actions? Often, when we feel hurt, it is FOO issues that underpin our pain. I think it is no different for pwBPD etc. The problem is, their genetic and emotional makeup make them less able to process the pain. They just can't cope with the relationship once it become close enough to trigger FOO pain in them. It's hard for anyone. So, let's remember that they didn't set out to hurt us any more than we set out to hurt them. It's tragic but it's not wilful... .we all did our best. I suspect that many of us nons and many of our BPD loved ones regret having been unable to have done better and we have all been buckling under the weight of our own self-criticism to some extent. We can all be our own worst critics. Let's be kinder to ourselves and each other. Many of us are coming to terms with a significant loss and are fragile right now. The last thing we need is a label (or another label)... .

Love Lifewriter

[SmarterNow]

The traits I was referring to:

She was loving, cared deeply for me... .intense feelings, she had overcome some "obstacles" in her life as a child, she had a run of "bad" relationships ... .all things that sucked me in to the vortex.  Not because I had an intense need to be her knight in shining armor, but because I loved this person and am kind-hearted and knew that we would have a great future because I would not treat her like these other people did.  She did not push/pull ... .it was steady for about a year.  She is high-functioning, hides it well, successful ... .she was gorgeous (is) ... .she was perfect for me ... .until she vanished and cut off all communication instantly.  Three weeks went by before I stopped by her house to find out if she was alive and she called the police on me!  We had spoken many times a day, saw each other several times during the week (did not live together).  We were in a serious and loving relationship and I am not delusional about any of that.  Only after the fact, when I looked up ghosting did I see a reference to BPD and I researched and lo and behold, there were the characteristics ... .not all of them but enough to draw the conclusion.  She has spoken to therapists for the 12 years I have known her ... .I thought for the childhood issues or relationship issues and it could have been all of the above but it HAS to include her BPD.  She obviously works hard to mask it and does a good job of it.  Only when I look back do I see the traits that I never would have clued into before researching this disorder. 

Bottom line ... .it was not me with the problem.  It was her.  And maybe you didn't say anything specifically about blaming one's self but it is implied in the title of the thread and that is what "attracted" me this morning when I was in no mood to read it.  Maybe I just jumped on the wrong thread to voice my displeasure with the thought.  Clearly there are people who attract BPD's by what they project.  I projected a normal, caring, loving desire to be with someone that I had no idea was this troubled underneath the surface and got the rug pulled out from underneath me.

[philo beto]

Black Bird song.

I would generally agree in the fact that, i was going through a painful divorce, my self esteem was shot, and bam here she is. The honeymoon is great but in a healthier time for me i would have thought the intensity a bit  odd and i would have backed away at all the neediness however i needed to be needed, i was wounded. The stage was set. You finally commit and you chase the honeymoon dragon forever. "why can't it be like before ?" Because the Honeymoon stage is not real, its a dream we wanted it to be real. I feared abandonment from my divorce.

However i was not responsible for some of the situations she put me in. I was only responsible for my actions to those.

As i said before, no healthy relationship asks for your core values and boundaries to be broken continually in love or friendship. If that is being asked of you it is not a healthy relationship, get out. I see that now.

[Lfisco111]

Just my two cents... .these people are a gift... .they mirror our subconscious wounds from long ago and we can see the opportunity to learn from the mirror... .in an ideal space, they would do the same and the r/s would provide growth... .but... .the pwBPD doesnt want to look in the mirror. ... its too much and too fatal... .nons sort if do as we see that whatever damage happened can be remidieed. . For me... .it feels better to let go of resistance to what is happening, because its happening for a reason... .we create our reality and when reality doesn't align with what we "want"... .the result is pain... .just for me, the way to heal from this chaos is to align with what feels good... .sometimes that is sending live from a far and sometimes its reassuring the ow BPD that they can have love when they love themselves... .a very hard tightrope to walk but in the end, we have zero control over anyone else, only what meaning we assugn to their actions... .which is deeply rooted in childhood history and wounding... .when we can look in the mirror at ourselves, the outcome and feelings change... .live is still there, we just dint take it personally as much... .a bit... .but it lessens the sting.

[philo beto]

Lfisco 111

Wow that is an amazing post. Yes i totally felt that, and i wanted to remedy it to be the best person i could be for myself and then the relationship. Nobody would choose to live with what BPD people do however the fear of change is greater. That tightrope you speak of is one i fell off many times and maybe i wasn't cut out/healthy enough to walk it at all. Our own fragile ego assigns the meaning and value.

[mywifecrazy]

Love this thread!

I've come to realize looking back that I was young and naive when I met my uBPDxw. I was the perfect target for her. I was an insecure young man but with a big heart. I didn't realize it then but I was a rescuer. It made me feel good to rescue this poor damsel in distress. I thought I was Nobel. I fell for all the manipulating stories of her alleged abuse. I thought I was a good person who fell in love with a troubled girl. What I realize now is that I was an unhealthy person Not only didn't I have healthy personal boundaries for myself but I didn't even know what a healthy boundary was. I felt responsible for this person's well being. This was obviously flawed thinking and a recipe for disaster. Disaster came after being married for 18yrs.

Now I am blessed as through my healing/recovery work I have learned about my own emotional health and personal boundaries.  I've been on dates with emotionally needy people and I can spot it immediately and I do not feel that need to be rescuer.  I've enacted my personal boundaries in a healthy polite way. Even though I have sympathy for them I don't feel drawn in to wanting to fix their situation. Now my journey is to learn not only how to continue being emotionally healthy myself but to learn how to be in a relationship with a healthy person.  I've learned that I was probably drawn to relationship with needy people because it was easier for me to take care of someone in a fatherly role. This is probably the unhealthy narcissistic part of who i used to be.  And taking care of someone is not what a healthy relationship should be.

It's weird because now that I've changed and I know my X hasn't I see her in a whole new light.  When I see her at our kids activities it's like I don't even recognize her.  I do still have sympathy for her but I know it's HER responsibility to change the things about her that are unhealthy... .Boundaries!

Very good discussion. Hope i made sense and didn't ramble.

MWC... .

[Thread]

I think everyone's situation is different. My family has a lot of Bpd traits very strong uBPD. But very Bpd. 2/5 may have Bpd.

Growing up in a home that is like this I am used to it, so when I met Bpd husband I didn't know the difference. Bpd was normal. Disfunction was normal.

I have to agree w smarternow every situation is different for one reason or another.

I also believe this site isn't to banter at each other but support each other in no judgment. We are here for a safe place to talk about things we can't at home or get judged about by others. Let's be more supportive and less argumentive.

[blackbirdsong]

I think everyone's situation is different. My family has a lot of Bpd traits very strong uBPD. But very Bpd. 2/5 may have Bpd.

Growing up in a home that is like this I am used to it, so when I met Bpd husband I didn't know the difference. Bpd was normal. Disfunction was normal.

I have to agree w smarternow every situation is different for one reason or another.

I also believe this site isn't to banter at each other but support each other in no judgment. We are here for a safe place to talk about things we can't at home or get judged about by others. Let's be more supportive and less argumentive.

I agree with you. But being supportive doesn't mean always saying something that other side wants to hear. This is called "idiot compassion".

I always like to read something that actually shows me my bad patterns in behavior. And this is one of the main points in this topic. Because this is one of the reasons why I am here. I am not here to primarily learn about BPD. If that was my goal I would be mostly on Improving board. I am here to learn also about my behavior that causes this deep trauma after the relationship with BPD person.

At the beginning of my introspection path I really blamed BPD for everything bad in my r/s. Now I believe that was wrong, and by reading about these stuff I managed to review my FOO issues and recognize what kind of emotional instability in my personality that caused. But for do that in a more effective way we need to talk about that and learn from each other. There is no judgement. 

Like I said, we are on different healing paths. There are many topics here that I don't agree with. But this is the point of discussion. Doesn't mean that we cannot be supportive and have different opinions about something.     

[philo beto]

blackbirdsong,

I would tend to agree. my ex partner made attempts to see me (start relationship) many times while I was married. My marriage was sound and i was emotionally healthy and i politely declined. When I was in the throws of divorce after a 14 year marriage (no drama just wanted different things) emotionally weak, battered self esteem and self worth, she came back to me again and i gave in (in truth i had great remorse for this affair). I listened to her awful stories and thought, I can save her, i can be her white knight. In truth this was all about my need to save, to be needed, to control,  so i would not be abandoned again. It is narcissistic to think you can save anyone but yourself furthermore i see now how control is at the basis of all these disorders or lack there of. CoD is about control and BPD or NPD is about lack of control over emotions so control happens everywhere else. I have been working diligently on letting go. You can only control yourself and I failed in this, in this relationship.

In end where i am now, i would have passed on that affair. Told her "find me when you are single" as i did many times in past.  This relationship has really allowed me to see myself and what a loving relationship should/shouldnt be. In the past I would have been dating already but I have made a conscious decision to not date for some time so i can work on me and heal a greater problem in me than just this breakup. I am scared, lonely but I have realized i am not alone.

She has started a new relationship already and her friend told me "she says its magical and we are so connected and talk all night", I wish her the best but know that after 2 volatile, rocky, failed marriages to two emotionally abusive people (a 3rd as we were together 6 years but thank god never married and yes volatile and yes I would yell and scream say hurtful things when i finally had enough not proud and chose to go to therapy to work on that part of me), a father (NPD and i could go on with the scars he's generated, he is why we should have lisc. for parenting) who still controls her with money (he pays her living expenses she does not work anymore), threatened abandonment (forgotten birthdays, general aloofness etc.) and abandoned her in her life multiple times, a mother who abandoned her as a child but now enables her (its all them your ok), many failed friendships and a general lack of acceptance that it might be "her" instead of the men she choses (although the 2nd husband was closeted homosexual and that too has its emotional scars she still charmed him back) that the pattern will continue. If she marries it will most likely be to a man modeled after her father/ second husband as that dysfunctional relationship feels right. I am sad she is gone but i grow stronger and happier every day that this is out of my life.

In reflection though do have great compassion for her as I can only imagine what it must feel like to think our parents loved us only conditionally not unconditionally. I realize now that i can never give her the unconditional love she needs. However I do not feel sorry or guilty for her any more. She is an adult.

I am not mad at her, I failed her on so many levels too, I was as immature in my responses to her boundary breaking actions as she was to ask them. In reflection if  I could have treated her requests with validation and compassion no matter how outlandish, then held her accountable then perhaps things could have been different. This is wishful thinking as i truly believe a healthy mature emotional connection scared the snot out of her, she's never had one in 44 years.

It takes a person with a Narcissistic streak to think they can save someone who's been emotionally hurt and battered for 30 years.

It takes two to get there but only WE can fix ourselves.