Real sounding threats, and false claims...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

He's been angry at me since last night. This morning he demanded he drive my car, as his is bad in the snow. I called him so we could find a resolution to this(on his commute). He got mad because I'm not supposed to call him, per him. He got irate, divorce threats, and I think he now means them, just like last year when he walked out. I'm scare to death.

He also says all this is MY fault, and that I "antagonize" him, and "trigger him". That is not the sort of word he uses, so could he be hearing that in his DBT? Could he be lying to his therapist(he's done this in the past)? For a while, he was coming home saying he knows he needs to stop threatening me, that they talked about it, and I saw that as a good sign. That's been a while though, and he usually eases them into "yeah, I've done some bad things, but she did blah, blah, blah(most of which are lies)".

I never, EVER do or say anything I think would antagonize him. Now, he's saying I can't even speak his kid's names. You know, the ones who won't have anything to do with him. All I did was ask if he was going to keep one of his guitars, because he'd given the other two away, and he likes to play, and it's one of her few surviving good memories: him playing guitar to me.

I'm not responsible for his rage. Even his kids told him that actions have consequences, yet I'm the one paying for his actions. I called him to find out if I could start driving him to work, but didn't even get that far. Oh, and he's driving my car far away, for his job, as the work car is in the shop. I now have to cancel my plans I've had for a week, because I have no car.

I needed that outing with my foodie club, so I'm going to try to dig HIS car out of the snow. If I can just make it to the plowed road, I can make it. He's likely to be mad, but I can't live my life changing everything I do, and fearing his anger.

I think he wants out again, rather than to really change his ugly behaviors. He insisted on telling me to "stop b___ing" which I've asked him not to say for years. He did it deliberately, and when I got asked him why he said that, the divorce threats started flying. He is going to do what he wants, no matter what.

He had been seeming like he wanted to really work his DBT program. I even have the note he wrote me where he said he really needs to change and get a handle on all this. And less than a week ago, he said he needs to work harder, and not just take baby steps. Now this.

How do I best deal with this, especially as scared as I am?

[Ceruleanblue]

He's been angry at me since last night. This morning he demanded he drive my car, as his is bad in the snow. I called him so we could find a resolution to this(on his commute). He got mad because I'm not supposed to call him, per him. He got irate, divorce threats, and I think he now means them, just like last year when he walked out. I'm scare to death.

He also says all this is MY fault, and that I "antagonize" him, and "trigger him". That is not the sort of word he uses, so could he be hearing that in his DBT? Could he be lying to his therapist(he's done this in the past)? For a while, he was coming home saying he knows he needs to stop threatening me, that they talked about it, and I saw that as a good sign. That's been a while though, and he usually eases them into "yeah, I've done some bad things, but she did blah, blah, blah(most of which are lies)".

I never, EVER do or say anything I think would antagonize him. Now, he's saying I can't even speak his kid's names. You know, the ones who won't have anything to do with him. All I did was ask if he was going to keep one of his guitars, because he'd given the other two away, and he likes to play, and it's one of her few surviving good memories: him playing guitar to me.

I'm not responsible for his rage. Even his kids told him that actions have consequences, yet I'm the one paying for his actions. I called him to find out if I could start driving him to work, but didn't even get that far. Oh, and he's driving my car far away, for his job, as the work car is in the shop. I now have to cancel my plans I've had for a week, because I have no car.

I needed that outing with my foodie club, so I'm going to try to dig HIS car out of the snow. If I can just make it to the plowed road, I can make it. He's likely to be mad, but I can't live my life changing everything I do, and fearing his anger.

I think he wants out again, rather than to really change his ugly behaviors. He insisted on telling me to "stop b___ing" which I've asked him not to say for years. He did it deliberately, and when I got asked him why he said that, the divorce threats started flying. He is going to do what he wants, no matter what.

He had been seeming like he wanted to really work his DBT program. I even have the note he wrote me where he said he really needs to change and get a handle on all this. And less than a week ago, he said he needs to work harder, and not just take baby steps. Now this.

How do I best deal with this, especially as scared as I am?

[Ceruleanblue]

Is going to the foodie club meet up a bad or good idea? I could really use the time for me, and to get my mind off things.

[formflier]

It is your car.  Why is he driving it if you said no?  Did you say no?

If you said yes, you will have to own this.

From now on keep all keys for car on your person or locked away where only you have access. 

Do NOT discuss it further.

Or you can decide to capitulate again.  You have a choice.


FF

[formflier]

I would not dig out his car,

Take control of your keys when he gets home.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Can you call for a cab, uber, or other transportation, instead of using his car?

[Ms.Perfect]

sell his car and buy different one. (or the same as yours  )

[Sunfl0wer]

I'm not proficient in boundaries around here but I'd like to open the conversation to boundaries... .

I vaguely recall another post I think was yours re boundaries around abuse.  (Apologies if my recollection is off). I do not recall what the resolution of that post was.

Do you have a firm secure understanding of what your boundaries are regarding abuse?

I am asking because I think you NEED to and that boundaries around abuse should be firmly cemented ones before moving onto trying to set boundaries that have the likelihood of inadvertently triggering abuse.

Again, apologies if you have been there, done that, and are solid in your definition of abuse and exactly how you will respond including escape and safety plan and network of resources.

[Sunfl0wer]

I like the alternative suggestions offered here that do not involve you using his car.

Just as you do not like it if he takes your car without permission, the fact that he took your car without permission, does not mean taking his car is NOT disrespectful.

I feel this behavior is escalating the situation and adding fuel to a fire.

This feels like 'tit for tat' behavior that is likely going to end very very badly for all involved.

[Sunfl0wer]

 Sorry for the triple posting!

I worry that if you are taking a stance of some sort and he counteracts with abusive tactics then you back down and have no way to securely address the abuse, then you have really only strengthened an abusive dynamic in the relationship through an intermittent reinforcement.

I worry if your abuse stance and boundaries are not firm and resolved that any other boundaries you set, he abuses, then the abuse cycle grows stronger each time.  This can be extremely dangerous!

Does this make sense?

[Daniell85]

As long as you are holding onto the marriage for dear life, he is going to use your fear against you in order to scare you into allowing him to abuse you.

There are 3 choices for you here:

1. Let him abuse you because you are scared he will divorce you. You lose yourself.

2. Leave him. You lose him.

3. Stand up to him and face the fear of the loss. You may lose him. Or calling his bluff may lead to the opportunity for a better marriage.

[Ceruleanblue]

He's actually okay with me driving his car most times. I have a perfect driving record, he's had quite a few accidents. If I thought he'd get mad about me using his car, trust me, I wouldn't do it. The whole issue with the car was that the road are snowy, but now they've been plowed.

And yes, he did take my car knowing I didn't want him to. I then called him on his commute, to find a way we can find a peaceful resolution, like me driving him to work on snow days, but he blew a gasket. Divorce threats, telling me I "antagonize him", and so on. I apologized(for what, I don't know), because he was just going off on me. He really seems to believe all this nonsense about me. I'd no more provoke him than I would an angry bear.

I didn't say "no" to him taking my car, but he knew I didn't want him to. And yes, I even hid the keys last night. He was so enraged this morning though, that I told him where they were(just in my purse).

I had a boundary around my car over the summer, when he was refusing to use the insurance payoff to buy a car with the cash. He's still mad about that months later.

I do have boundaries around abuse, at least physical abuse, but thankfully that has not been an issue for quite a while. It's just threats, and lots of verbal abuse now, and constant put downs and criticism, and blame. ALL crappy, but I try to walk away from it. I think that is a boundary? Sometimes I'll still try to have a civil conversation, or explain myself, but I try not to JADE. And using S.E.T has never worked very well with him, in fact the "truth" part almost always enrages him.

I seriously don't think he's BPD, or maybe he's just a super amped up, on steroids version of it. I'm having more issue with boundaries around how I want to be treated. I mean, I know I deserve to be treated respectfully, but a boundary isn't going to make that happen? Really, all I can do is remove myself from his presence when he's like that, but that sets off a whole other set of issues for him.

He actually brought my car home just a few minutes ago, and was able to get his out because of all the shoveling I'd done, and a neighbor helped him get it out. Just last week, with kitty litter, boxes under tires, shoveling, and all that, I was able to get my daughter's car out. This is another incident where I feel like a failure in his eyes. HE got the car out, and I could not. Well, he did have help, and I didn't.

Why he brought my car back, and is now acting like all is "okay", is like the Twilight Zone. He told me to go to therapy(which got cancelled), and go to my foodie group. He's acting nice as pie, and I'm a mess, and still hurt. My emotions don't bounce back as quickly as his do. He can act like a monster, then a while later, he's acting like it never happened. If I didn't know better, I'd think he has multiple personalities(I'd actually prefer that)... .

Open to ideas about boundaries. And formflier, if I just hide the keys, and don't let him use my car, all hell will break loose here.

[Ceruleanblue]

I think we are already on option #3. We were separated last year, after he walked out. He was acting exactly as he is now. Erratic, unpredictable, and super rage filled. I never knew what he'd get mad about. Well, I filed, because I was done begging to stay with someone who shows no respect for me, said only I needed to change(and I was already working on myself in therapy), and that wouldn't admit he had any issues other than anger.

Well, we ended up back together, but with a whole lot of things he wanted me to change/work on. I have. One of these things, I haven't done in a year(it's a small thing, but something he wanted me to stop, and it basically involved something I feel... .I just don't share it now), he now says I've still been saying. It's like he's delusional. I stopped cold turkey, haven't done it, but he just invents stuff in his mind. I can't combat that sort of stuff.

I feel I did call his bluff with filing for divorce, and being ready to follow through. Also the reason we started talking at all, was because when we were separated, I called him up and told him a piece of my mind, and told him I never thought I deserved how he treated me, and that he'd been lucky to have me, and that I'd been fighting to save us all along, and be healthy myself. He was sort of stunned, and this led to a conversation. He did sort of back down, but then it was back to him testing me, and we sort of "dated" and I was like on a trial run, to see if I could be what he wanted. Total crap.

I decided to reconcile though, in part, because he agreed to get help, and he agreed that he wanted to be healthier. His oldest, adopted daughter, and his other two kids, wrote him off at this time, calling him "toxic", and I think he really took what they said to heart. Nevermind that his kids were doing that because they hate me, and he came back to me! They might have seen some bad behaviors from him growing up, but they'd all told me he doted on them, and was a great Dad. I've never seen him be less than a great Dad. He's a terrible husband(as he likes to say), but he's great to my daughter, and great to his own.

I don't know. I feel we are on #3, and options #1, and #2 sort of stink. I want the marriage, but I of course, don't want to lose myself. I did last time, prior to his leaving, and before I got in therapy. I'm not this time around, but it's sure a lot of chaos, and scare tactics around here.

I just wanted to be one of those stories where things smooth out a little, and I was able to use the tools to get there. I even use a lot of the DBT skills, which I really like, but they just tick him off too. He even hates when I ask for clarification about something.

[flourdust]

As long as you are holding onto the marriage for dear life, he is going to use your fear against you in order to scare you into allowing him to abuse you.

There are 3 choices for you here:

1. Let him abuse you because you are scared he will divorce you. You lose yourself.

2. Leave him. You lose him.

3. Stand up to him and face the fear of the loss. You may lose him. Or calling his bluff may lead to the opportunity for a better marriage.

I'm with Daniell85 on this. I think some of us talked about this in your other thread today/yesterday.

You said something very honest in your post, CB. You said you were scared to death. Then you kind of buried that thought in all the logistics and minutiae of the various disputes.

That fear of losing the marriage is controlling you. What will you do? Exactly what he wants. Or whatever you think will appease him. Then you'll come back here to vent about it.

You've said that you don't want to quit your marriage. That's understandable. You don't have to quit it, but in order to get things to change, you're going to have let go of saving-it-at-all-costs. Enforce your boundaries and rebuild your self-respect. As a result, he may quit the marriage -- but that's on him. 

[Sunfl0wer]

It's just threats, and lots of verbal abuse now, and constant put downs and criticism, and blame. ALL crappy, but I try to walk away from it. I think that is a boundary?

Maybe that is a boundary, I can't tell for sure. 

If your value is that:  It is not respectful for people to use put downs, criticism, etc

Your boundary: You disengage however possible, including walking away if necessary

Then the above sounds pretty reasonable and doable.

However, I cannot tell if you are being firm and consistent about your behavior sending the message that abuse, emotional or verbal included, is not tolerated.  I think that only you know exactly what is transpiring here.

Divorce threats, telling me I "antagonize him", and so on. I apologized(for what, I don't know), because he was just going off on me. He really seems to believe all this nonsense about me. I'd no more provoke him than I would an angry bear.

It sounds like he is saying many abusive things via phone, did you enforce your boundary around verbal abuse here?

I mean, I know I deserve to be treated respectfully, but a boundary isn't going to make that happen?

Absolutely it will! 

You completely have the choice to only be in the company of people who treat you respectfully.  You completely have the choice to remove yourself from any situation where you do not feel respected.  If someone treats you respectfully, then change course, you absolutely have the choice to continue spending time in their company or not, and if you continue to engage with them during or after this.

Was it Oprah, Dr. Phil, someone else who said... .  You teach people how to treat you!  They only treat you as good as you have taught them to.  ... .As good as they know you will allow.  ... .As good as you feel you deserve.

[formflier]

I didn't say "no" to him taking my car, but he knew I didn't want him to. And yes, I even hid the keys last night. He was so enraged this morning though, that I told him where they were(just in my purse).

OK, you have to own this then.  If my wife threatens me and I tell her my password (which I have never done) it is same as saying yes.

Open to ideas about boundaries. And formflier, if I just hide the keys, and don't let him use my car, all hell will break loose here.

Let it break loose, find a room you can lock yourself in or get in car and drive away.

Or, decide he can use the car.

That's where you are.

Again, you told him where the keys were, same as saying yes.  You didn't hold the boundary.

Making a decision out of fear is not good.

 

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I didn't say "no" to him taking my car, but he knew I didn't want him to. And yes, I even hid the keys last night. He was so enraged this morning though, that I told him where they were(just in my purse).

OK... .you have to own this then.  If my wife threatens me and I tell her my password (which I have never done) it is same as saying yes.

CB, I know this will be hard to hear, but what you did is far worse than just saying yes.

You taught him that if you say no, all he has to do is act MORE ENRAGED, and you will cave.

Next time you "try" to say no, he will do it again, and probably louder and more forcefully.

[Cloudy Days]

CB I don't believe you are on #3, you are caving in to any and every whim he has, and in the process you are losing yourself. You apologized for something you didn't do. You claimed that you were trying to explain something to him but you weren't using JADE, last part of it is explain. They don't want your explanation, it doesn't make any difference to them when they are enraged.

I think something you really need to think about is that, emotional abuse can most of the time be so much worse than physical abuse. It has a profound effect on your psychological and emotional well being. That's why putting a boundary around abuse is key and should be where you start. First and foremost, you seem to be very scared of him leaving you. You may have filed for divorce in the past but you may need to think of this as a different relationship than what you had in the past. A start over at least, so what happened when you separated doesn't necessarily mean that it has anything to do with how things are now. When you got back together with him, you didn't really set boundaries around what was acceptable behavior from him, however he did do it with you. It almost seems as if you took on the blame for him leaving. I can attest to this, don't ever accept blame for something you didn't do, it doesn't help you in the long run. I can tell that you really wanted him back because you accepted things from him from the get go just so the two of you could reunite and now you seem to be resentful of it.

I think maybe you really just need to work on the boundaries around abuse at first. Don't stay on the phone with him, don't stay in the same room with him like someone else suggested lock yourself into a room, call the cops if you really need to, or leave the home. If when you come back he is still abusive, leave again. It seems as if filing for divorce for you was at a very last resort because he wasn't showing any interest in you. It seems you still really wanted the relationship though. Now that you have it back you have a bit of PTSD that he is going to leave you again. You need to try and work through that. The two of you separating is not the worst that could happen. Being stuck in scenario #1 is the worst that could happen and it seems you have slipped back into that place. I've lived that life, and I think I would rather die than go back to it again. Maybe that is what woke me up.

My relationship is not perfect but the abuse is much more mild than it used to be because I learned how to walk away from it or hang up the phone. I have been severely physically and emotionally abused in the past and I was just like you, I feared my husband, I walked on eggshells every single day, every single moment and it was a miserable existence. The one thing that stopped all of it was that I no longer feared losing him. It's like a weight is lifted off of my shoulders now. 

[Verbena]

CB, after reading many of your posts I have to ask you a question.  What are you getting out of this relationship?  

I can clearly see what your husband is getting out of it (someone to blame, rage against, have sex with/purposely hurt during sex, someone to play mind games with), but what about you?

Your husband is mean, inconsiderate, and disrespectful to you.  He's emotionally abusive to you and could easily be physically abusive to you again.  He may have some redeeming qualities, but for the life of me I can't see any from your posts.   

[Ceruleanblue]

I think everyone missed the fact that I didn't actually SAY "no" about the car. I just told him I hate being stranded. I agree if I'd initially said "no" then he gets aggressive or angry, and I back down, that that is bad. That isn't what happened though. I just feel he knows, from me having had a boundary about the car prior to him getting his car, that he should still know that the same feelings apply: I don't like being stranded several days without a car. It was easier to set a boundary in the summer, because he could ride his motorcycle.

I try not to set a boundary and then back down, but I know I've done it at times. I just don't agree that I did it this time. I think I'm just guilty of not setting a boundary in the first place. I let him take the car when I really didn't want him to, but it IS one me that I didn't have the guts to say "no" for fear of his anger. And I knew he really had no other options as his car just won't go in the snow. I just wanted to find a solution, and that's when it got ugly. He interpreted my efforts to suggest things like driving him as being difficult, or something. He doesn't like to be questioned, period, or engage in trying to find solutions. I think he's so scarred from the chaotic, dysfunctional way he and his ex interacted, that he forgets I won't react that way. He forgets that I can disagree with him and still be respectful.

What I'm getting out of this relationship is something I'm really looking at in therapy. My answer four months ago, would have been: We do still have some good times, we share a lot of the same interests, when things are good I'm reminded why I chose him, he does have good qualities(I just don't seem to be the recipient of them the way others are), things have actually gotten better this last year(still not what I'd consider a healthy relationship where we equally listen and support each other though), he's gotten a lot better dealing with the step kid issue, and he's slightly enmeshed with my daughter, but he actually is a good step dad to her(other than not setting a very good example of how to treat your partner). I feel like I've worked on or tried to "fix" so many of the things he didn't like, or things he thought I did, but there is always some new thing to "fix". It feels like a game. I like me, and I don't think I'm all the things he says.

I think I get indignant, and vent here because I think he's so wrong about me. He's painted an ugly picture of me, in his head, over the last years. I don't agree with it, or take it on, but it hurts me that HE seems to believe it. I think partially it's my stubborness that keeps me here. I don't want to start over, and I hate defeat. Leaving would feel like defeat. Like if I'd just tried another tactic, or gotten better at boundaries, or something... .we'd have made it. I know it takes both of us trying, but I still think I'd feel bad for giving up. I left someone in my past who tried to physically abuse me, so I know I'm capable of leaving, I'm just not there yet.

I think a small part of it is that the small improvements he's made, and my continued work on ME, have given me hope. I'm always hopeful that things can get better.

[Daniell85]

You can't defend yourself about what he is telling you that you are as a person. He already knows this. HIS interest is in projecting onto you and forcing you to accept this IS who you are. He has adverse motivations. All of your explaining, disagreeing is putting you in JADE. Which then gives him the opportunity to disregulate at you.

He knows the score. It's how he operates. He will cross any boundary he can, mainly because you don't enforce said boundary effectively. He knows his raging and threats, his abuse, intimidates you. You both know this.

CB, it is reality to say that until you face him down and enforce without engaging him back when he starts his antics, he will continue as he has been.

You come here to talk out your fears, pain, the upset you feel, and then once you calm down, you make a case for talking at him and how he walked all over you.

I am not sure how far you are going to get until you accept that this man is wildly controlling of every aspect of his choices, and will abuse you to shut up you sharing your feelings about his actions.

I know it's hard. I totally get it. It's why I ended my relationship with my ex boyfriend. I am not able to successfully manage my reactions to him. It ends in tears every time.

Unless you are able to radically accept that your husband is who he is, and step back from engaging him over his stuff( his kids, his sons, the guitars, his car) and stand firm on your boundaries with your stuff, not much is going to happen, except the continued conflict and resulting damaging antics.

You have some space here to defend, beyond what you are talking about today:

1.Your right to have a relationship with your son without your husbands nastiness demands of choosing himself over your child.

2. Your right to marital funds and assets.

3. Your right to preserve those assets ( I figure this is going to be an endless control issues with your husband claiming right to give away whatever he wants when he wants)

and so on.

I honestly believe that you have to accept that this marriage is not going to be "normal" , ever. You will always need to have your own money ( job, social life). You will always need to take practical steps to conserve your belongings ( getting a personal storage unit). You will always need to build your own financial base. and protect it. Because right now, your husband is claiming a very real ownership of you, what you do ( getting job, having son around) and the truth is, your future is entirely under his control if you let this situation continue to play out as it is.

You clearly cannot love him into caring how you feel, you can't talk him into it, leverage him into it. He knows what you are asking for and he doesn't care because he thinks he doesn't have to.

You don't need his permission to live an adult life where you make your own standards, your own friends, your own job, or have a relationship with your son or daughter, or anything else.

Do as you like. If he becomes abusive, leave. If he follows you and escalates, call the police. If he escalates worse, leave, call the police and decide if this is really how you want to live the rest of your life.

You may not want to.

[Ceruleanblue]

Danielle:

You are so right. I'm really weighing things right now, but I do still want to stay. I haven't thought I could "love him enough" that any of his issues or chosen behaviors would just go away. I think this reaches far, far beyond just his relationship with me. Since I've learned more of his history, it's clear that he's had these issues for a long time, and it's led to issues at various jobs, and incidences with people he knows, and even strangers. Road rage was a real issue for him at one point, and he could easily go there now, but the first time I ever saw it, I very much let him know I WOULD NOT tolerate being in the car with him if he drove that way.

I'm doing some of the things you suggested, and others I'm thinking about, or trying to put in place. Logistics is hard right now as to the storage unit. Ideally, I'd like to have zero things in the storage unit at all of mine. I'd like to sell the stuff and live lighter. It will probably have to wait until spring or summer though.

I've realized for a long time that I'll never have the marriage I wanted with him. He's not capable of it. He isn't what he portrayed himself to be when we dated, and I have to decide if it can ever get good enough that I want to spend the rest of my life with him.