Hi, introduction, question about Idaho resources

[3free]

I'm 3 years out of a long-term marriage to a dBPDh. Grateful for the healing that I have experienced!

I am here to try and help a friend. She is in a 20 yr. marriage to a uBPDh. It is getting really rough now, he is splitting her black more and more, and is becoming increasingly destructive to property and manipulative to their children. She has no experience with this, and my personal experience only goes so far, since we had different circumstances.

She is is Idaho, and is in desperate need of resources. Anyone know a BPD experienced attorney? Or any other local resources that would help her personally to protect herself and the kids?

Thank you so much!

[Turkish]

It might help to contact some therapists first:

https://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/prof_results.php?state=ID&spec=196

You may also find resources by calling the local NAMI:

https://www.nami.org/Local-NAMI?state=ID

She can also ask on www.avvo.com.

Attorneys there are there to find clients, so be careful about screening before committing a retainer.

[livednlearned]

Does she have a copy of Splitting by Bill Eddy? That may help her get started, to understand what she's dealing with.

The only thing that helped me keep my son connected was validation. It didn't work with my ex to much effect, but validating my son's feelings made him realize he had one parent who let him feel what he was feeling, and another parent who told him what to feel. When the parental alienation became toxic, I used some of the approaches that Richard Warshak suggests in Divorce Poison. That's another book that was a lifesaver.

Tell her to document everything. Everything.

Does she have access to a computer?

[3free]

Hi, thanks for the replies!

Turkish, the avo.com site is about cigars. Was there another that you meant to post?

I will suggest those sites and books! Thank you!

[Turkish]

D'oh! Darn wolf brain... .

www.avvo.com

Two "v"s. The post above has been corrected as well. 

[3free]

OK, she had to leave and run to a friend's house. Then he served her with divorce papers. Any new advice?

[Turkish]

If this is a DV situation, she needs to get in touch with a local shelter. She "had to flee" sounds like she wasn't safe. Are the kids safe?

[3free]

Violence, yes, but he breaks things in the house, punches holes in walls, etc.

He closed the bank account and took her car keys. She called a friend, and they are at the friend's house, safe. His buddy showed up with divorce papers.

[Turkish]

Violence, yes, but he breaks things in the house, punches holes in walls, etc.

He closed the bank account and took her car keys. She called a friend, and they are at the friend's house, safe. His buddy showed up with divorce papers.

That's domestic violence. Where are the kids?

In California, being "served" like that isn't legal or valid. Unless she signed something. It's good that she's safe. A local DV resource can hook her up with legal help. You can find resources to pass on, right? If she's hesitant to call, stress that a phone call is anonymous.

Get her the book that lnl mentioned. She'll need it.

[3free]

The kids are with her.

I didn't divorce (Still separated, long story), but I was told by people on here that I really needed a lawyer who was experienced in BPD, since it's so different than a regular case.

I am in a different state, so it's hard for me to help.  :'( But I want to make sure she has a really good lawyer. I'm really trying hard to find someone.

I will suggest the calling the DV places.

Thank you!

If anyone has any further advice I would be glad to hear it!

[ForeverDad]

If he is successful in filing first, he may think he is ahead of the game.  Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, it's hard to say.  Likely he made claims of abuse from her, after all, he's trying to make her look worse than him.  That's SOP for a controller or acting-out person.

If she had to flee, sounds like she can easily choose to file for protection for herself and the kids.  That usually starts as an ex parte order then is followed up where both appear in court to state their cases.  Does she have photos of the damage to the home?  She can also ask for possession of the marital home in the meantime.  If she has possession then she controls who visits.  If she has a protection or restraining order then he would have to stay a minimum distance away and not pressure her in any way.

She may be afraid to anger him more and in her statements hide some of his misbehaviors that might impact his work.  Hiding the other's misdeeds is a form of self-sabotaging.  Court can make better decisions if the problems and issues are mentioned up front.

[livednlearned]

You can also Google her town with keywords like "lawyer,"  "high-conflict divorce" and "parental alienation." Those tend to be code words for attorneys with experience dealing with PDs.

One word of caution -- I have read somewhere that there is a tendency for codependent people to pick lawyers who may have PDs themselves. Something about the attraction to narcissistic types. Out of the frying pan into the fire    This article is really good in terms of how to pick the right lawyer. It's written by lawyers for lawyers, providing advice about how to best work with someone who has a BPD/NPD spouse. So your friend can look for a lawyer who is assertive instead of aggressive.

If she is in a state of mind where she's inclined to read, we have a long list of Lessons here on this board.

There is also this Anatomy of a Divorce designed to help people think about divorce when BPD is involved. It represents the collective wisdom of senior members who have been through protracted legal battles themselves, as well as supporting hundreds if not thousands of people who have come through here, sharing their stories. It might help your friend to read through it and demystify some of the court processes.

Another option is to go to www.highconflictinstitute.com (Bill Eddy's organization) in California and ask if they have any referrals.

[3free]

Thank you! I have been doing extensive searching, and still waiting to hear back from HCI on referrals.

Possibly found a decent one, she will meet with the prospective choice soon.

That whole ex parte order, possession, etc. would that be done through the lawyer, I assume? Yes, she has pics of damage to the home. How does one get a protection or restraining order?

[ForeverDad]

Each county's domestic court would have the forms.  While the staff or clerks at the court can't provide legal advice, they may be able to make subtle comments about what is expected in a filing or give indication of experienced lawyers.  The local DV resources should also be able to help.  (I went to mine but they had no resources for men.)

I agree with prior posts, punching walls and breaking items in the house is a form of DV, not to be discounted or left unreported.

She may only need to provide basis for 'fearfulness'.  But she shouldn't count on it, she should list specific details. Dates and times, locations, etc help elevate allegations from "he said, she said" to incidents.  Court cares most about events within the past 6 months, older information may be 'stale' but could count toward establishing a History or pattern of behaviors.

If there were prior police interventions or CPS involvement, that should be included.  She should be sure to include reasons why the children need protection too, or else the court may exclude the children.  (That's what happened when my ex tried to include our preschooler in her temp protection filing.)

Likely in the motion or petition she can request occupancy of the home, meaning he would be the one to depart.  She needs to weigh the factors as to what she needs both short term and long term.

Whoever doesn't get the residence would probably need to request a police escort to ensure the peace when picking up personal items.

If he's the breadwinner for the family and he's been hoarding his money, then she probably doesn't need to be nice and "take only half of what's available to her".  If she takes too much (unlikely) then it will get handled later in the divorce during the financial reconciliation phase.  Court will not pay much attention to her taking too much, it expects some conflict and emotions upon separation and figures it will get handled eventually.  This is a time to stand up for herself and the kids, in most cases the court lets what happens happen and most times doesn't concern itself overmuch about the monetary details.

Also, any money provided before the court gets around to ordering spousal or child support or done outside the ordered framework is almost always considered "gifts".  Any support ordered will probably start retroactive to the date of divorce filing.

She needs to be careful of her statements.  She does not (and should not) have to say anything that makes her look bad, that is, she needs to listen to her lawyer.  If testifying or making statements, keep it simple (KISS).  If it is expected to be Yes or No, then keep it short.  Don't volunteer information without the lawyer's agreement.  She may want to explain something but she could inadvertently end up sabotaging herself.

[livednlearned]

That whole ex parte order, possession, etc. would that be done through the lawyer, I assume? Yes, she has pics of damage to the home. How does one get a protection or restraining order?

A lot of DV shelters have advocates that will walk victims/survivors through the process, and even go to court with them. I noticed in my experience that young, less experienced people handled the intake process, whereas more seasoned volunteers (often with legal backgrounds) handled the actual advocacy. I was actually so freaked out about how inexperienced my person was that I bailed and never showed up at the hearing.   It wasn't until later when the advocate followed up with me that I understood a little better how things worked. I figured a 21 year old college student was no match for my N/BPD former trial lawyer ex, and was worried she didn't understand the extent of what I was dealing with.

One thing I also noticed about lawyers -- they tend to try and diffuse situations. So the second time I came close to filing a PO, my L and ex's L actually hashed out this agreement and surprisingly, my ex abided by that agreement. My L was worried that a PO would escalate my ex's abuse because he had already shown such a blatant disregard for judge's orders and authority.

[3free]

OK, she has chosen a lawyer, and is borrowing money to get the retainer paid. The DV place said she cannot get a restraining order because she cannot prove physical or sexual abuse. There were never any police reports or anything, so she is stuck. She has been having the kids call to say good night before bed, and it's usually really quick. Is she under any obligation to let him see them? He is in the military, and his higher-ups are just finding out about the situation. Supposedly they don't tolerate their men leaving wife and kids with no money, so this may be bad for him. He has had work problems in the past, and maybe this could be a final straw and result in him losing his position. If so he would be really mad. Makes me all the more worried about the kids having to see him.

[ugghh]

3Free, a few suggestions for your friend.

1) Go get a digital audio recorder that she should have on and running anytime she is around the husband.  This is for her protection and to provide some validation should he begin going into a rage. 

2) Your friend needs to push her attorney to get a date on the court calendar for temporary orders, sometimes called pedente lite, in which they can push for things like money to live on, exclusive possession of the marital residence, etc.

3) She needs immediately to begin documenting not only what has happened in the past, but also her daily routine.  What it is often hard for others to understand is that courts are clogged with former spouses who claim that their ex is violent, etc.  Judges are often conditioned to essentially view these claims with skepticism because they are so often bandied about without supporting facts.  The documentation is the key to show patterns of behavior, not only by pwBPD, but good parenting behaviors by the other parent.  For example, making sure the kids talk to Dad every night shows that she is a reasonable person who would not exclude the Dad if she were awarded full custody.

[ForeverDad]

My experience is likely to be the case in many areas to a greater or lesser extent... .Without a written court order in hand stating otherwise then both parents have equal but undefined and unspecified rights to the children.  What that means is that the parent in possession generally has massive control.  That parent can be guilted or pressured into making exchanges but not forced into it.  For example, that parent could hear the police officer plead that the children be exchanged to defuse the incident and feel pressured to let an exchange take place.  (That is the goal of police and other emergency responders, to defuse the current incident and encourage the parents to resolve it in court.)

A reasonably normal person would think, "I don't want to look bad to domestic/family court, decline an officer's request or appear a problem to others, so wouldn't I get credit for sharing?"  Well, a truism sometimes mentioned here:  The person behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the person behaving well seldom gets credit.

My thought is that she should only allow contact that she is comfortable with.  Yes, court may order some level of contact that is greater when they eventually get to court, but without any orders in place right now then she can use good judgment as to what parenting to allow or not.  Also, she shouldn't give up on the concept of seeking some protections from spouse's obstructions, abuses, whatever.

My early story:

11/2005 - We separated and she filed for her and child to have protection from me by blocking all parental contact.  Son was promptly removed from the petition by the magistrate but I was relegated to non-primary alternate weekend parent in the temp order.

02/2006 - Temp order was dismissed and then-separated spouse promptly blocked all parental contact for 3 months, not even allowing my calls to our preschooler.  This time we went back to court for divorce I filed.  Mother wasn't admonished, Father didn't get any make up time and Father was reset again as non-primary alternate weekend parent in the divorce temp order.

In my county the typical temporary order is issued in a half hour hearing 1 to 2 months after the divorce filing.  It was a free-for-all until then.  Even before I filed, my then-stbEx filed for an Ex Parte protection order to block my parenting.  The magistrate removed our son from the petition once CPS stood up and stated they had "no concerns" about me.  Though she was facing Threat of DV charges in another court, no one mentioned that line item on the petition.  All the magistrate was concerned about was our work schedules.  Though I had the house in my TPO and she couldn't come near it, she stated she "worked from home".  So the magistrate issued the typical temp order, mother got temp custody and majority time.  I got alternate weekends and a 3 hour evening in between (when she followed the order  ).

When those temp orders were all dismissed and she was found Not Guilty of DV threats (judge ruled no weapon in her hands so death threats were not "imminent" per case law).  She immediately stopped exchanges.  After a month I found a divorce lawyer, got my paperwork done and filed for divorce.  Another two months and we had our initial divorce hearing.  We had the same magistrate as before and he was not perturbed she had blocked me 100% for 3 months.  All he said was, "I'll fix this" and issued the same temp order, this time also ordering me to pay child support starting retroactive to the filing date.  No consequences for her, no make up time for me.

Ask the lawyer you consult what your weaknesses and advantages would be in the case.  They can't guarantee there won't be surprises - there always are - but they can tell you what the typical outcomes are.  Don't be disappointed or dejected if the lawyer is cautious.  I recall my lawyer warned me about my expert custody evaluator, said court never went against the recommendation, asked me if I really wanted to risk one.  I did and it was glowing for me, about the only negative was that I documented every detail and was too hyper on disproving every lie and distortion ex made.

What my CE emphasized in his report summary was that "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can."  Push that in your case, courts don't like parents being obstructive to the other parent.  Courts also are reluctant to give consequences so they may 'fix' some things going forward but not be inclined to give make-up time.

Ask what strategies and options would help your case.  Remember, ex has made this a parenting 'war', not just a quick 'battle' or two.

Remind the lawyer that the typical vagueness in boilerplate clauses can give ex room to reinterpret the order so best to have clear details in the areas where H has had the most problems in the past.  Getting a new order with real clarity can reduce the probability of future need to return to court.

Courts are often reluctant to make big changes since they figure the current status, if the parents have managed to live with it for some time, can't be all that bad.

[3free]

Update! I am THRILLED! We found a lawyer who was once married to a BPD/NPD! Very experienced, very capable! A clear answer to prayer! Thank you so much for all the advice. I have passed it on to my friend. If you think of anything else, I would be glad to hear it. Thank you all!

[livednlearned]

One word of caution is that BPD and NPD do marry each other, just as it seems common for BPD and codependent types to marry.

In a book I was reading about NPD, the author noted that NPD seems to be rampant in the legal profession.

It's probably not an issue here with the new L, just be sure to have your eyes wide open. An NPD lawyer will take an aggressive approach most likely, with a winner takes all attitude. My T, who has been sued twice by BPD clients, told me that she tests new clients by disagreeing with them on something, to see how her clients respond. Not being able to take mild criticism or feedback can be a sign that someone has issues... .

On a side note, my own L, who has become a friend, also divorced a BPD/NPD ex husband. I eventually got up the nerve to tell her that I was upset about something she did, and she responded with honesty and compassion. A sign she did not have a PD.

And my ex husband was an attorney too, a combination of BPD and NPD. He could not tolerate abandonment, and he could not tolerate being made to feel inferior.

Anyway, it's good to be cautious and make sure things add up.  

[3free]

Wow, thank you, LnL! I wouldn't have thought of that. 3 years free has really gotten me out of the loop of dealing with PD's. Not that I'm complaining... .

[3free]

OK, she is faced with a question, does she want separation or divorce? She needs to put that in her papers. She is told that in Idaho, it's basically the same. What is your recommendation? Needs an answer by morning.

[Turkish]

Is this a egal question or an emotional one from her? I think only she can answer that, no?

[3free]

Legally, what is best?

[Turkish]

What is her lawyer saying? He would know the laws best in that state.

[livednlearned]

Like Turkish mentioned, there are emotional implications, and legal ones. 

LEGAL: When you are separated, there are still a bunch of legal ways you are liable for the other person. Car insurance, for one. If the H is particularly spiteful or feels particularly hopeless, it's possible he  could do something to jeopardize her safety and well-being, even if it sabotages himself.

EMOTIONAL: What is her intention here? Does she want to shake his cage so he will get treatment? If so, in her heart, does she believe that is likely? Is she worried about the impact of divorce on her kids? Is she worried about making it on her own without him? These are tough questions, I know. In my case, I waited and waited and waited until the choice was made for me. This can be more traumatic for us and our kids, though I understand the hoping and praying route, and know that it tends to drive the bus when we are feeling weakened by abuse.

[ForeverDad]

EMOTIONAL: What is her intention here? Does she want to shake his cage so he will get treatment? If so, in her heart, does she believe that is likely? Is she worried about the impact of divorce on her kids? Is she worried about making it on her own without him? These are tough questions, I know. In my case, I waited and waited and waited until the choice was made for me. This can be more traumatic for us and our kids, though I understand the hoping and praying route, and know that it tends to drive the bus when we are feeling weakened by abuse.

I too waited and waited, my ex never sought or permitted counseling, and there was nothing I could do to make Staying work or be Right.  Without progressing therapy getting positive results, many of us found that Staying meant appeasement, walking on eggshells and boundaries continually weakened.

[ForeverDad]

Legal separation or divorce?  My lawyer said he had only handled two in his 17 years of practice.  He was not in favor of LS.  He described one as an amicable 'separation' so that the man's wife could continue receiving health insurance.  It worked in that limited instance.  His point was that if there is or has been conflict then LS is cutting some strings but not enough.

Sadly, halfway measures seldom work for long.  A clean break, or as clean and final as possible, is generally the better solution.  If there are minor children it is more complicated but still the same counsel.

[3free]

Thank you! She chose divorce. A VERY tough decision. I am passing along all comments, they help reassure her that she has done the right thing. Please see my new topic, she just found out that he has been selling much of their belonging while she has been gone. She need to know what to do. Thanks!