Collaborative Law; Mediation; Alternative Dispute Resolution

[Woof]

Hello all -

It looks like I'm headed to a divorce.  My wife is diagnosed depression and anxiety, and undiagnosed but very likely high-functioning BPD/NPD.  We have three kids, two of which are minors.  I've been attracted to the idea of mediation because I feel like I reduce the risk that she finds an aggressive and easily manipulated attorney.  It was suggested to me that I consider something referred to as collaborative law, which involves a therapist, coach and two lawyers.  I love the idea of getting a therapist involved who understands some of the personality traits possessed by my wife but don't care for the expense.  I'm interested in all of your thoughts on what other options are available.

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Woof

[ydrys017]

The best advice I can offer is to read "Splitting - protecting yourself while divorcing someone with BPD/NPD" by Bill Eddy.  Chapter 13 is devoted to alternatives to litigation and covers: self directed negotiations, mediation, collaborative, settlement conferences, arbitration or private trial, etc.  It is an excellent book, and is useful regardless as to where you are in your process.

[ugghh]

Agree 100% with the recommendation of reading Splitting.

I would be very careful about using the collaborative process.  My high functioning ex-wife who was uBPD was all about trying to talk me into that.  When I consulted with my attorney who was highly experienced, he counseled against it as he said it was his experience that it typically led to significantly higher costs, longer time to finalize the process and ultimately when dealing with personality disordered people, he ended up litigating anyway.

A couple of resources for you

www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/images/dispute_resolution/Linda_Wray_Article_of_interest.pdf

https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2010/08/31/divorce-and-high-conflict-people-borderlines-narcissists-histrionics-sociopaths-and-other-persuasive-blamers/

In legal code words, they often substitute "high conflict" instead of attribuing a personality disorder.  Mental health issues are complex and often not easily diagnosed, whereas high conflict or difficult can usually be observed fairly easily.  The biggest issue with pwBPD is that no matter what deal you offer them, their sense of entitlement will always have them feel like they are owed more.  Additionally by therapists, coaches, etc.  you are introducing outside parties that have a limited amount exposure time in which you hope they are keen enough to pick up on the egregious behaviors.

I elected to go straight to the litigation route and my ex managed to go through 3 attorneys (the first 2 fired her), deemed the 20 year experienced GAL as incompetent, and finally even after the divorce walked out on yet another co-parenting counselor after 2 sessions.  For me and my children, the best path forward was to move through the process as expeditiously as possibly, so that I could devote my attention to taking care of myself and the kids.

[ForeverDad]

ugghh has a point. It can be risky to pin your hopes on collaborative approach if the stbEx won't collaborate.  What if the professionals involved aren't as experienced as you hope?  What if, instead of holding both parties to simple rules and methods, they are conned into leaning your stbEx's way or are willing to take a middle of the road approach?  For example, what if she wants 99.9% of parenting and you want 50%, would they be inclined to split the difference, leaving you with 25%, in effect, alternate weekends more or less?

How close to adulthood are your younger children?  That may make a difference for parenting concerns.

How are the assets and debts?  With it being a longer marriage, how long would your state and area want to you to pay her alimony?  For example, if you work and she doesn't, would she want to depend on alimony as The Fix rather than seeing alimony as transitional help to get herself into a job or career?

I think my biggest concern or impression is that collaborative divorce may lock you into that process, making it hard to switch over to the courtroom alternative?

[ugghh]

As I understood the collaborative process, the attorneys involved agree not to be your litigators if the collaborative does not work.  You have to start over with a new attorney.

Woof, you should understand that system is not necessarily focused on dealing with personality issues, etc.  It is at times a cumbersome process.  Your efforts are probably best focused on identifying the what your priorities are for the divorce and working with your attorney to get those results.

[flourdust]

My state requires a court-ordered evaluation process which is similar to mediation. The recommendations of the evaluators are non-binding. The attorney I've consulted with has said that it's a good test to see how a collaborative dispute resolution process would go -- if your spouse's reasoning process is too distorted to be effective in collaboration, then you'll see that in the court-ordered process first.

[ForeverDad]

Most here report that they're court ordered to start the divorce process with mediation once there is a temporary order in place.  For most mediation fails, it failed for me, so did a later ordered settlement conference.  The reason is that most of our spouses are very controlling and entitled, especially if there are minor children.  It usually isn't until much later in the divorce process that a less unfavorable and less unfair settlement is possible.  In my case and for many others, a settlement wasn't possible until just before a big hearing or trial.  It's not for nothing there's a phrase, "The case settled on the court house steps."  Which is why we advise you to keep the case moving along as quickly as possible.  The closer to the end of the divorce, the likelier to get a less unfair settlement.  If that doesn't happen, then in most cases a judge's decision is much less unfair than an entitled spouse's offer.

This isn't to say a collaborative approach is automatically doomed to failure.  To the contrary, some factors to consider are whether the children are all almost grown (custody issues will fade away when the children age out of the system) and how controlling, entitled, vindictive or sabotaging the spouse is.

[Woof]

All,

Great thoughts.  My therapist recommended "Splitting" and I read it yesterday.  Very helpful. While I intellectually understand that I'm likely to receive a similar reaction to the introduction of the topic of divorce as I received when we separated (she wanted me out of the house until I found an apartment, the asked me to stay, then has been angrily blaming me for leaving ever since), the book reminded me that I need to be prepared for more (and probably worse).  It also had a great description of the legal processes. 

The consensus on this board seems to confirm my suspicion... .that is, the collaborative legal process is expensive and time consuming.  I'm also gathering that mediation and an out-of-court settlement sounds fanciful given the existence of a high conflict spouse.  My biggest concern is that she is high functioning and highly manipulative, and has shown herself to be quite capable of skillfully suggesting that I have a variety of nefarious issues (she's not too over the top in a very believable way).  Most of her therapists are fooled.  The marital therapist has figured it out.  A family member has figured out.  Aside from close friends and family, everyone believes she is the victim (not sufficiently loved or cared for).  I am the only source of income/assets.  She hasn't been able to hold a steady job since we married. While I am committed to being fair and equitable and ensuring that she is in a good spot, I'm fearful that I'm going to be taken advantage of.

[ForeverDad]

Despite our war stories, most here do manage to eventually reach a settlement.  My experience was mixed.  I did settle on Trial Day of my divorce.  A couple years later it required a court decision when I needed a determination of a Change in Circumstances when seeking custody and majority time but we settled on that Trial Day for GAL's solution of only custody.  A couple years later I went back for majority time and the court had to render a decision. I guess that makes my score 2 and 2?  As every site disclaims, "Your results may vary." :'(

Documentation is helpful.  Some of her "negative advocates" will never be swayed from her fictional emotional claims so vehemently described as fact.  Others may get thrown overboard when she doesn't need them any more or they figure it out.

The marital therapist should be a good resource for you, especially with any professionals confounded by her slick claims.  Sadly, many try to avoid the legal scenarios, telling/sharing the truth sometimes gets them blacklisted by the other, complaints filed with the state licensing boards, etc.

[livednlearned]

The one really crappy thing about collaborative law is that the lawyers involved make a commitment to not take things to court. That means if you and your wife don't agree on something big, like a reasonable custody agreement, you have to find a whole new lawyer and start an entirely new case. That's a lot of money, and in the process, you've tipped your entire hand. In a way, you have to be able to negotiate for her sake, otherwise she will sabotage herself, you, and the kids because she'll be dealing with serious abandonment (even if she brings it on herself) and her emotions will be roiling. If she has a lot of narcissism, she is also to feel triggered by being relatively naive. The legal process feels very authoritarian and serious, and no one explains anything, and the decisions can feel like life or death. My ex went into full-blown psychosis in court and he was an experienced litigator. That's how stressful it can be.

Anyway, it might be different in other states, but that's how collaborative law works here. It's supposed to be some kind of ethical commitment to avoid trial, which is great in theory but highly unlikely to give you a fair shake if there is a disordered spouse. She will have the ultimate card to play in that negotiation, which is to abandon the collaborative agreement if she doesn't get her way.

And her way won't likely be a great deal for you or the kids.

[ugghh]

Woof,

It is likely that you will reach some type of settlement, as the courts really prefer that outcome. As ForeverDad stated it is just a matter of how long it takes to reach that point.  Typically it is a couple years.  I got lucky and literally got done in 6 months.  I say lucky, but that is not really correct either.  What is very important to remember is that as manipulative as your stbx might be, you probably know her better than anybody.  You know what pushes her buttons, you know what makes her happy and sad, you know the areas where her impulsiveness shows.

What I am saying is that is very important to have an attorney whom you can work with and use that knowledge to obtain the best possible outcome for you and your kids.  You will note that I am not focusing on the stbx.   For many who come to these boards, we have been conditioned for years to make excuses for and explain away the behaviors of our pwBPD.  It is critical that you make sure that your priorities are focused on what is best for both yourself and your kids (whom you are likely an anchor in the BPD storm).  This sometimes is a change in thinking for many of us.  We need to recondition to feel comfortable letting our stbx find new resources, family, friends, etc. to help them sort out their needs.

[Woof]

Well... .my options may be narrowing.  The conversation this weekend regarding our divorce went as well as could be expected.  No yelling or throwing things.  There were plenty of bizarre things said but... .it wasn't too bad. Heap-loads of blame but you all know what that feels like.  She seemed open to mediation yesterday but sent a very confused note to our couples therapist and me today, the purpose of which escaped me, but noting that she no longer trusts me and believes we will need to hire lawyers and litigate... .I feel like I've read this script somewhere before thanks in large part to the excellent recommendation to read "Splitting."  So here we go... .

No questions today.  Just wanted to provide an update.  I'll be back with more and I'm sure more questions.