Between 20 and 25 incidents of anger/issues in two months

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Today should be interesting in MC.  My assignment is to list and have my wife verify "outburst of anger" incidents.  The list I just sent to my wife for verification and for her to have an opportunity to add to the list has between 20-24 incidents.  :)epending on how you split them or connect them.

While I think this will be interesting, right now I'm not "scared" of it.  We'll see.

List below,



First few of these are in correct chronological order, the rest are likely not listed in order that they happened.

Conflict around going out to dinner with just Mommy

Won’t turn down volume on TV, I go to hotel.

Orders kids to van and to water park

Wrestling match outside door I go downstairs and then to hotel

Calling names at dinner at IHOP, I leave

Not allowed to sleep, police response

Going back on agreement to let me sleep on Sunday evening

Conflict over changing who takes kids in the morning (ff wife parked in front of me)

More conflict over morning routine, ff wife gets in van and pulls out kids

Sunday morning conflict as I try to disengage, ff wife through locked doors, loud phone call in middle of house.

Skating conflict and lecturing kids about daddy being insane

Conflict about proving VA appointment in NC.  ff wife blocks door.

Cleaning out van, breaking glass, ff calls names, ff wife demands trailer.

Conflict about talking late at night.  ff wife wants me to “lay there and listen”

FF challenges ff wife on lying about paycheck and not working.

General conflict about talk in front of kids or not.

Testy exchange about dance class decision

Testy exchange about broken heart

Pulling over after divorce comments

Carrying boxes before moving in desk

Divorce conflicts/parental alienation

Conflict over ff wife waking up kids, coming in door loud

S13 not allowed to talk to me until after folding clothes, ff wife walked away. S7 kept up.  Limited talking, walking away.

Shelving laundry room conflicts

[formflier]

Today should be interesting in MC.  My assignment is to list and have my wife verify "outburst of anger" incidents.  The list I just sent to my wife for verification and for her to have an opportunity to add to the list has between 20-24 incidents.  :)epending on how you split them or connect them.

While I think this will be interesting, right now I'm not "scared" of it.  We'll see.

List below,



First few of these are in correct chronological order, the rest are likely not listed in order that they happened.

Conflict around going out to dinner with just Mommy

Won’t turn down volume on TV, I go to hotel.

Orders kids to van and to water park

Wrestling match outside door I go downstairs and then to hotel

Calling names at dinner at IHOP, I leave

Not allowed to sleep, police response

Going back on agreement to let me sleep on Sunday evening

Conflict over changing who takes kids in the morning (ff wife parked in front of me)

More conflict over morning routine, ff wife gets in van and pulls out kids

Sunday morning conflict as I try to disengage, ff wife through locked doors, loud phone call in middle of house.

Skating conflict and lecturing kids about daddy being insane

Conflict about proving VA appointment in NC.  ff wife blocks door.

Cleaning out van, breaking glass, ff calls names, ff wife demands trailer.

Conflict about talking late at night.  ff wife wants me to “lay there and listen”

FF challenges ff wife on lying about paycheck and not working.

General conflict about talk in front of kids or not.

Testy exchange about dance class decision

Testy exchange about broken heart

Pulling over after divorce comments

Carrying boxes before moving in desk

Divorce conflicts/parental alienation

Conflict over ff wife waking up kids, coming in door loud

S13 not allowed to talk to me until after folding clothes, ff wife walked away. S7 kept up.  Limited talking, walking away.

Shelving laundry room conflicts

[sweetheart]

ff I'm going to take the stance of devils advocate here. It strikes me when seeing the list that an emotionally able individual who had gone through a particularly stressful transitional time, like a major house move might also present with a long list of similar issues and incidents.

I'm wondering what presenting this list to your w hopes to achieve.

How does your counselling work with this? In what way do you want this to improve your relationship?

To me the list feels exposing and somewhat shaming to highlight someone's difficulties in this way.

Correct me if I'm wrong but all these incidents took place in relation to your recent house move, and your w's dysregulated behaviours have now more or less settled?

I made a list a few years ago of all the incidents that occurred after we moved home, it was quite shocking in length and seriousness. I sent it to my h's care team, he has never seen this list, nor would I want him to. I know he would feel completely invalidated and ashamed primarily by the incidents, but also that his 'defectiveness' was so exposed by someone he loves.

When my h is stable incidents from his dysregulated behaviours do not occur, or are very minimal, would this be true of your w?

How is your part in the recent conflict analysed through the counselling process, does your w have to make a list for your behaviours as well?

[flourdust]

I wish you good luck. This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

[Cat Familiar]

Do you imagine the spiritual counselor has any knowledge of BPD? I remember you saying he had a PhD. Have you given him any clue about what he's dealing with in your wife's behavior? I know how successful the pwBPD in my life have been at presenting a certain image in public which is completely uncharacteristic as to the way they have behaved in private.

I know this is your homework assignment, but it seems to be quite shaming, like sweetheart said. Tighten up your seatbelt, I think you're going to be in for a rough ride.  

[Verbena]

If you marriage counselor asked for lists from both of you, then I assume your wife will have her list also?    

Seeing your list typed out makes your situation seem even more serious.  I do think any counselor/therapist needs to know what is actually going on in the home--especially because of the parental alienation and damage being done to children.  

I agree with flour dust that this has disaster written all over it, not because the behavior doesn't need to be brought to light, but because disordered people don't do well when their behavior is exposed.  Your wife is going to have a hard time explaining away or justifying everything on that list.  She is not going to come out of this looking very good.  

[formflier]

 

My wife's "accusation" or presenting concern is my PTSD and how out of control I am.  I have acknowledged my side of things, (without making counterclaims or "she made me do it" stuff)

So, we are each supposed to make a list of conflict in the last week.

I was asked to make a list of PTSD "outburst of anger" incidents (times when I raised my voice) for the 2 month period in question, and have my wife verify that I didn't leave anything off.

She was not requested to make anything for the two month period.

This guy is "getting to the bottom" of things quickly in a no BS way (this is my take on it). 

This is session 3 of MC today.

Yeah, I'm going to fasten my seatbelt.  But, honestly, my wife has surprised me with her candor on certain things that have come up.  So, we'll see.

Where is that flak jacket, ?       

FF

[byfaith]

Good Luck FF

I was thinking about a statement my wife made about MC. She said something about not wanting to feel attacked and her outlook on MC is for her to go into it and be "constructive". I know without a shadow of a doubt that a list such as this would backfire on me.

Our MC had us complete the "Gottman Relationship check up" it will give him a basis to work from. It will compare her answers with mine and he will review with each individual one on one to review our answers. It was pretty extensive 400 questions. I met with him the first time by myself before the survey. I had a brief discussion on BPD with him.

I hope it works well for the both of you

[formflier]

 

We will see.

Knowing what I know, I wouldn't recommend this method.

This is an example where I will not "save" or "rescue" my wife.  This is the type of counselling she wants, so, she will get it.

Chips will fall where they may.

FF

[flourdust]

We will see.

Knowing what I know, I wouldn't recommend this method.

This is an example where I will not "save" or "rescue" my wife.  This is the type of counselling she wants... .so... .she will get it.

Chips will fall where they may.

May I suggest ... .and I'm being serious here ... .that you pack a bag before you go to this MC session? Include your medications, clothes, money/credit cards, any important documents or ID you need, personal hygiene stuff, charger for your phone or laptop.

I'm saying this because you might not be going home tonight. It's best to be prepared.

[formflier]

 

Yeah, I've thought about that,

I'm going home tonight.  If I have to make a stand, lock myself in a room, whatever.


And, she responds.

FF wife response to the list.

The only conflict I remember that is not on the list is when u were holding the massager over the bath tub while I was in the bath. FF wife

End of response.

So, I had forgotten about this.  Will add it to the list.

She believes I was trying to kill her with a "magic wand" type massager.  Seriously, she said that.

I had it plugged in and was making light saber sounds, touching her with it, preparing to hop in and use it on her to get her to orgasm.  Have done this several times before (lightsaber sounds and all,  )  No idea why this time was different.

What she said was so preposterous I let it go in one ear and out the other.

I realize that many of the women on here that have been secretly wanting me (stand in line behind all the others my wife thinks are having me, ) may now be turned off unless you are a star wars fan and like jetted tubs,

Maybe I'll paint the massager red and go to the dark side,

Do I laugh about this, or get a tissue and cry?  Sigh.

FF

[HopefulDad]

This thread just got a whole lot more interesting.   

I guess it's good she didn't refute the list.  Funny that she added to it.

I agree that I think the MC is trying to get as much background as possible as quickly as possible.  Hey, maybe it's doing you a favor and saving you money.  Often, it takes several sessions of he said/she said before the MC has a good take on what's going on.  This could cut to the chase.

Anyway, good luck no matter what.

[flourdust]

I guess it's good she didn't refute the list.  Funny that she added to it.

Agreed... .

The paranoia is a constant, isn't it? My wife is convinced that I use my time alone with D10 to talk trash about her. (I don't, for the record. I do have to delicately dance around the subject of BPDw's shenanigans ... .why isn't mommy living with us? Why did mommy scream and leave the house?)

She's also angry about the times I've recorded her, because she's convinced I'm going to edit the recordings to make her look bad.

I don't need to edit anything -- she doesn't seem to understand that her own behavior is what makes her look bad.

[formflier]

Oh, I haven't even brought up recordings yet.

Most of the incidents are recorded, for my protection.

I did reference some of the recordings after I did the writing about the incidents.  I was pretty close.

Yeah, paranoia is "just under the surface", that she is going to be duped and realize her marriage has been a fraud for 21 years.  Her "investigation" of that notion has made things much worse.

At some point that will come out.

May the force be with me,    

FF

[formflier]

For those of you that are praying types.

It starts in about 45 minutes,    

FF

[Grey Kitty]

1. DO NOT BRING UP RECORDINGS IN MC.

Save those for police or courts.

In MC, proving that your wife is wrong/lying/etc. won't help anything. The MC doesn't have enough authority to do anything based on this knowledge.

2. Asking for this kind of list makes me think that the MC doesn't know much about the sort of mental disorder your wife has, or doesn't realize she has it. Prepare for fireworks.

Kinda good that she didn't totally blow up over the list in email before MC, though--that is encouraging!

[Verbena]

I understand how your list could be seen as "shaming" to your wife.  But how can anyone be accountable for anything if they do not own up to their behavior?  You are seeing a Christian counselor.  The crux of Christianity is knowing we are nothing without God, knowing that we are sinners, and asking for/receiving forgiveness.  

I'm the praying type and just lifted up you and your wife.  

This is why my husband refuses counseling.  He won't discuss specific incidents or  his behavior with me, so he certainly isn't going to have them brought up in front of anyone else.  At least your wife is willing to go to counseling.  It surprises me that she is willing, though, knowing her behavior will be found out. 

[HurtinNW]

I want to add a slightly different take to this.

Couples therapy with my boyfriend has never worked. Why? Because he presents lists like this all the time. All of our sessions have involved him doing all the talking, reciting chapter and verse all of my alleged sins.

Now, I am sure from my boyfriend's perspective he was right about all these incidents. My perspective was much, much different, of course. But the point of him listing my supposed traits and behaviors in therapy was not to work with me, resolve or heal, or do anything remotely positive. It was about him needing to feel right. It was also about him trying to win the therapist to his "side." And to shame and correct me. None of this was helpful.

I am not disputing that FF is being accurate in his recall of these incidents, from his perspective. But what is the point of this? To confront his wife? If we are modeling emotionally healthy ways of communicating, how does presenting a list like possibly model a loving relationship?

To me this feels more like perpetuating a conflict and argument. Just my two cents.

[Sunfl0wer]

I feel like offering my slightly diff perspective... .

It sounds like MC 'framed' the list as a list of:

FF admitting to his angry outbursts due to his PTSD.  

While I know that many of us on this site reading this, it looks like a blamefest at FFw, possibly because we are looking through lenses of already deciding she is to blame, and possibly because we are so used to taking the perspective of the pwPD and trying to be a step ahead, that we immediately 'see' potential triggers.  So there is a lot of validity to the fact FFw easily triggered and such, I admit.

However, since your goal FF, appears to be committed to really being honestly engaged at putting your trust in the potential of this MC working... .

-I don't see how shielding the truth will help.

-I don't see how withholding your participation as a way to manipulate the outcome of your wife's feelings would help.  (MC and FFWw likely will pick up on it). (This sounds like more eggshell walking and enabling abuse)

What I mean about enabling abuse... .

Is how can FF really participate and make gains in MC when there is abuse currently happening?  Isn't the act of him witholding in MC due to fear of her reaction FOG and abuse via FFw intimidation over FF?

When I was dealing with abuse issue, and many others I have heard of... .

When abuse is current = MC halts to deal with abuse.

MC cannot be productive or effective as long as one party is in fear of the other.

FF IS in fear and being abused.  He fears for the emotional well being of his children, and also the worsening of his physical disabilities on a daily basis.  On an event/intermittent basis, he fears other things.

So back to MC when abuse is present... .

Goals

- abuse must be acknowledged

- both parties must agree that it is unacceptable

- MC must address

I do not gather that FF intentions are to repair the marriage to return to an abusive dynamic.  My sense is he is not willing to put work into a relationship that is 'functioning' WITH abuse present.

My understanding... .and my belief... . Is that a prerequisite for any MC to be effective at any level => abuse must be delt with FIRST.

When abuse occurs in a relationship... .The relationship never goes back to 'being what it was.'

So, yes, facing abuse may cause a huge burst and dynamic shift.

That is what NEEDS to happen for abuse to stop for good!

Then new dynamics and shifts take place... .

The couple develop a new relationship.

After abuse... .You never go back to non abuse days... .

You instead find a new ''couple" or new way of relating and understanding each other... .and new dynamic.


I think this thread needs to acknowledge that this is not simply a man trying to repair disagreements between a pwPD and himself.  If so, minimizing what looks like attacks may be helpful.  However, this is a situation of domestic abuse that involves 10+ people?  I believe the research says that abuse must be DIRECTLY delt with if there is any chance of reforming abuser?

... .

Ok, now that I spit all that out... .

My opinion... .

I think FF, you did a great job making a list that is actually NOT looking so triggering.

You did not use much blaming or emotional language.  It really looks like you maintained quite objective language and just used minimal key words to trigger the event mentioning.

I think the list looks awesome!   :angelI am almost afraid to say that and go against the grain here... .but diff perspective can help)

I think if it is in your conscious to give your wifes approach the best chance it has to work if it will work... . And if it fails... .knowing you gave it your all and fully engaged in the process... . Well... .I think you did great!

(Even tho I worry as this is today? And you didn't post update? )

[formflier]

 

Take your flak jackets off, and stop peeking around the corners.  It's ok to come out.

I continue to scratch my head a bit and be slightly encouraged.

MC updated the assignment.  I had written a 1 page thing for about half of those incidents, following a format the counselor wanted.

What was the trigger, what was my reaction, what was I thinking, etc etc.  Wanted me to describe my tone, body language, etc etc.

So, he confirmed with my wife that she had seen the list and that she added an item.  Also confirmed that she had not read the detailed write ups.

So, for this weeks homework I'm to provide the detailed writeups to my wife and she is to add her perspective where needed.


He said he is in the stage of gathering information to make a judgment about what is going on in the home and how to best address it and he wants both perspectives.

He then said "Because FF, when I read these write ups it seems to be that you are saying you are just doing your thing, your wife goes off the rails and you sometimes react badly to that" (he didn't use the word "rails" but the rest of it is about word for word.  I don't remember exactly what word he used)

I said "Yes, that is they dynamic that has been going on for the past two months"

He said "I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I need more information to make a more informed decision."  He also said that "where there is sin there is chaos" (I need to follow up that quote/verse)  He said it's obvious from these stories that chaos is on the loose in your home.  Would you agree?  We both agreed.

We went and had dinner afterwords, went to some stores and are now back home.

Note:  We were there an hour and spent about 10-15 minutes on the homework and list issue.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

FF, can you clarify what I *think* you implied by not saying otherwise?

Your wife didn't deny everything, didn't explode, and is still working with the MC and trying to follow his instructions and work on your marriage.

... .And we all wait for next week hoping to have this kind of positive results continue... .

[formflier]

Yes, GK you have it.

She asked if she was supposed to give her perspective on my write-ups and he said yes.  She was calm and cooperative.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Wow ff, that's some serious stuff! It sounds like you found a really good marriage counselor!I wish you the best of luck in this new endeavor.