Am I buying into FOG? Opinions please

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Today my husband asked me if I was soon going to be ordering from the online company I buy my supplements from. I have avoided taking medication for osteoporosis by using several supplements that have returned my bone density to normal levels. I told him that I had just ordered a few days ago.

He became very upset--he called it "hurt" but it appeared more like anger. He said that I'm so conscientious about taking care of the animals, but that I wouldn't think of him. To be fair, I usually ask him every time I'm making an order if he needs anything. Sometimes he doesn't tell me until he runs out of a supplement he uses (usually something for his hair) and other times, it might take him days to tell me what he needs and then I have to wait to place my order then nag him about telling me.

This time, I realized I was unexpectedly running out of something I need and he wasn't home, so I completed my order without asking him what he needed. I told him that and he claimed I was "justifying".

Even though I apologized for not asking him before ordering, he considered that I explained my situation as totally discounting what he was saying. (JADEing on steroids apparently.) Even though I only said it once.

So, partly I feel a bit guilty for not asking him and then, on the other hand, I feel he should be able to take care of his own needs. He buys stuff online all the time, so why do I have to pay for his stuff too?

After he lashed out at me, I stayed in another room, doing what I was doing, instead of joining him for breakfast as I usually do. He said, "Oh, now you're never going to eat breakfast with me again?" I said that I was upset and that I didn't want to be around him until I felt better so that I was going to continue what I was doing for the time being.

Thoughts?

[Cat Familiar]

Today my husband asked me if I was soon going to be ordering from the online company I buy my supplements from. I have avoided taking medication for osteoporosis by using several supplements that have returned my bone density to normal levels. I told him that I had just ordered a few days ago.

He became very upset--he called it "hurt" but it appeared more like anger. He said that I'm so conscientious about taking care of the animals, but that I wouldn't think of him. To be fair, I usually ask him every time I'm making an order if he needs anything. Sometimes he doesn't tell me until he runs out of a supplement he uses (usually something for his hair) and other times, it might take him days to tell me what he needs and then I have to wait to place my order then nag him about telling me.

This time, I realized I was unexpectedly running out of something I need and he wasn't home, so I completed my order without asking him what he needed. I told him that and he claimed I was "justifying".

Even though I apologized for not asking him before ordering, he considered that I explained my situation as totally discounting what he was saying. (JADEing on steroids apparently.) Even though I only said it once.

So, partly I feel a bit guilty for not asking him and then, on the other hand, I feel he should be able to take care of his own needs. He buys stuff online all the time, so why do I have to pay for his stuff too?

After he lashed out at me, I stayed in another room, doing what I was doing, instead of joining him for breakfast as I usually do. He said, "Oh, now you're never going to eat breakfast with me again?" I said that I was upset and that I didn't want to be around him until I felt better so that I was going to continue what I was doing for the time being.

Thoughts?

[Daniell85]

I think you handled it appropriately.

What reason does he have for not making his own order?

[Lifewriter16]

Hi Cat Familiar,

Are you buying into FOG? Yes, Yes, Yes... .any healthy person would respond to your response that you had just ordered online by just doing his own order.

Isn't it strange how living around people with BPD for any length of time stops us from seeing the obvious because we are told for so long, that black is white and white is black, that we eventually believe it?

Love Lifewriter

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks Daniell, I too easily buy into the "being selfish" argument and start second guessing myself. It all started with my mother learning to manipulate me that way as a young child.

He has no good reason for not doing it himself, other than I've encouraged him to use supplements in the past (because his alcohol abuse leaves him depleted of various vitamins and left to his own devices, he eats a lot of crappy food--of course I don't tell him that). It was one of those things that I have always volunteered, though it irritates me when he asks for something and then abandons it in his medicine chest.

And yes, Lifewriter, I really don't have a clue what normal or healthy is. One thing about pwBPD is they can be very good at manipulation. 

[HurtinNW]

I think in a "normal" relationship it would be understandable if you had developed the habit of ordering the supplements your husband would develop that expectation. It's like if one person always picks up the milk, after a while that expectation develops. Then when they forget the milk their partner says hey, where's the milk?

But then in a normal relationship once you explained what had happened he wouldn't have gone on a tizzy, lashed out and personalized what you did in his BPD way.

So yes that is the FOG. You shouldn't feel guilty.

Growing up in my family I didn't have any idea of normal, either. I did have a 15 year relationship prior to this one that, while it was far from perfect, was at least normal in a lot of respects, like living together. So I feel pretty confident that a healthy partnership something like this would barely be a bump in their day. He'd ask, you'd explain, and someone would order the darn supplements. Don't feel guilty.

[flourdust]

My rule of thumb is to look at my wife's reactions and evaluate them against how I'd imagine a normal person would react. If her reactions are way out of proportion, then I know it's BPD at fault, not me.

Your action: Order supplements, don't include him in order

Normal reaction: Anything from indifference to mildly upset. If this had been a recurring problem that you guys had talked about, slightly more upset.

His reaction: Anger, refusal to accept apology, accusations, passive-aggressive comments about breakfast.

[Cat Familiar]

But then in a normal relationship once you explained what had happened he wouldn't have gone on a tizzy, lashed out and personalized what you did in his BPD way.

My rule of thumb is to look at my wife's reactions and evaluate them against how I'd imagine a normal person would react. If her reactions are way out of proportion, then I know it's BPD at fault, not me.

Thanks, HurtinNW and flourdust. Hours later, he's still upset about this. One time I don't buy him stuff and he spends all day ruminating that "he's not included" or as "important as the animals"--it would be funny, but he's serious about this.

The irony is that of all the times I've bought him supplements, I don't ever recall him thanking me. And I'm on a limited budget while he's wealthy and spends like crazy on stuff--recently over a thousand dollars to frame a couple of his photos. (He's getting gouged by the woman who owns the frame store, but she raves about his photos (smart businesswoman!) and he keeps giving her work--and we are out of wall space!)

Today I bought a $90 desk on Craigslist that I'm going to have to refinish because I just can't afford to buy a new one. I'm Ok with this, but the irony stings sometimes.

[Notwendy]

One thing I wonder about is- why can't he order his own supplements? He's a grown man.

And an aside- I would love to know what you are using- being at that menopause age, we could all use some help with keeping bone density.

I get this though. When we first went to MC, I was afraid to not cook dinner for my H. He would pitch a fit as if he would starve to death if I didn't feed him. I don't mind that I am the family cook, and he is the wage earner. But he acts as if I am starving him if I don't cook for some reason. And he doesn't do the dishes either.

Our T looked at me and said " don't cook". I was terrified. Now, I do cook most nights for the family but that was not what she meant. She meant that I was cooking for the purpose of appeasing him, so he didn't throw a hissy fit. It was co-dependency, and I was very resentful. My kids like it when I cook, but they also know how to make a simple meal.

Where we got the idea that we had to do something for them, that they are able to do themselves, and they pitch a fit if we don't is beyond me. I've been cooking since I was a kid, and I get my own supplements/vitamins/medicines. It doesn't even occur to me to expect someone to do that for me.

[formflier]

 

Cat Familiar,

Yep, you bought it, hook line and sinker.

Generally I think you did good.  I like the state it once thing.

I would encourage you to avoid the "staying in other room thing".

Perhaps sit with him and breakfast and if he won't let it go, be direct, even and firm about saying that your desire is to have a nice breakfast with him but if he chooses to continue picking at it, you will leave.  

Or perhaps pivot to "help me understand what I can do right now so we can enjoy breakfast."  :)on't pre-judge his response.  When he responds, don't debate it.  Either accept his proposal and do what he proposes or say no and go to  other room.

Think of this as the good, better best thing.

I don't think you did anything wrong,

FF

Also work in a validation and/or SET with the truth being about his importance to you.

The pissy part of me says work in the truth that he is a grown man and can order his own damn supplements, perhaps offer to help cut his food as well,  

Anyone on here get the vibe that man that act like boys bug me, ?   

[Notwendy]

One reason this behavior is irritating isn't the action- I don't mind cooking, or ordering something for someone. I think it is the meaning attached to the action, and the behavior when it isn't done.

"If you do X for me, then I am loved, you love me. If you don't do X for me, then you are rejecting me, hurting me, I am the victim".

Attaching FOG to the action is what is irritating to me. I don't mind cooking dinner. I do mind cooking dinner under the consequences of ST, and anger if I don't.

Before I understood this, this kind of behavior worked well to ramp up my caretaking behavior. I didn't want my H to feel I didn't love him, so I kept on doing more, in hopes that he would feel loved and this issue would stop. But no matter how much I did, it didn't change it.

But the narrative was in his head, and it was just waiting for the next thing to start the play button. Didn't cook dinner?  My reason: I was out all day doing something with the kids. His assumption: I am not loved, rejected,

One I didn't buy his favorite sodas ( he didn't ask to get them, I was supposed to know)  at the store. My reason: I had a lot of heavy things to carry and couldn't include the drinks. His assumption I am not loved, rejected, .

This could translate to other things as well. Friend calls me on the phone? Notwendy isn't talking to me.I am not loved, rejected . Excited to see an old friend that I haven't seen in years? Notwendy isn't as excited to see

me

Eventually I realized that I didn't put these ideas in his mind. I was just the background for them. For years, I was trying harder and harder to do something about them, since I was being blamed as the cause of the feelings ( something I was used to growing up with BPD mom. ) But then, I realized that this had nothing to do with me. I am not a mean person, and I don't intentionally do things to hurt people. I was just being me, doing the best I could and eventually something I would do would be blamed for the feelings.

Cat, it isn't the supplements. Your H is a competent professional, and he knows darn well how to get his own. This is just the stage for the feelings that are his, not you.

[Cat Familiar]

And an aside- I would love to know what you are using- being at that menopause age, we could all use some help with keeping bone density. 

If anyone is interested in osteoporosis/osteopenia info, PM me and I'll send you an interesting article and the list of supplements I use, with my doctor's support, which have returned my bone density to within normal limits. I learned about this alternative way of treating osteoporosis from the National Osteoporosis Foundation's website.

[Cat Familiar]

I get this though. When we first went to MC, I was afraid to not cook dinner for my H. He would pitch a fit as if he would starve to death if I didn't feed him. I don't mind that I am the family cook, and he is the wage earner. But he acts as if I am starving him if I don't cook for some reason. And he doesn't do the dishes either.

Our T looked at me and said " don't cook". I was terrified. Now, I do cook most nights for the family but that was not what she meant. She meant that I was cooking for the purpose of appeasing him, so he didn't throw a hissy fit. It was co-dependency, and I was very resentful. My kids like it when I cook, but they also know how to make a simple meal.

Where we got the idea that we had to do something for them, that they are able to do themselves, and they pitch a fit if we don't is beyond me. I've been cooking since I was a kid, and I get my own supplements/vitamins/medicines. It doesn't even occur to me to expect someone to do that for me.

We went through this "cooking issue" too. He used to say to me about two hours before dinnertime, "What are we going to do?" What that meant was "What are you going to cook for dinner?" It was so indirect that over time, it started infuriating me. Not only was I outdoors (and indoors) doing "man's work" of repairing things and building things, now I was supposed to fix him dinner too, while he had spent all day reading or watching TV!

In his previous marriage, he had told me that he did all the cooking. So what was the problem?

I realized that in the idolization phase of our relationship, I was happy and willing to do a lot of things for him. He hadn't retired then and I assumed that he would take on some of the responsibilities when he did. Nope. He was more than happy to just sit on his a** all day long, doing things that entertained him and letting me do all the work.

Had I known this, I wouldn't have set the precedent that I was the cook as well as the gardener, the builder, the electrician, the plumber, the ranch hand, the veterinarian, while he was "the scholar". Just typing that makes me angry again.

[formflier]

 

I think the menu for today, that I am going to try and pull off, is corned beef and cabage.

With mashed potatoes that I have turned green,

Fingers crossed.

Cat Familiar,

I'm insanely curious.  What happens when you ask him to cook?  Even just prepare the meal (as in not having to shop and select ingredients)

FF

[Notwendy]

I can tell you what has happened if I did that. It was so long ago. I would get several arguments. One was the my job your job one and how it isn't fair for him to do his job and my job. The other one is that all the women he works with are horrified that he doesn't come home to a hot meal (not sure this is true or not). The other is that if he does that he'd be a henpecked husband.

It got to be a moot point once the kids came along as I had them to cook for. I was also codependent. If cooking could bring peace to my home and fix my marriage, then I was happy to do it. I didn't understand how doing this out of FOG wouldn't result in that.

Like dishes - that ship has sailed. I like to cook and I'm a good cook. At this point I'd rather eat my cooking. It isn't the cooking but the narrative and the argument that went with it.

[formflier]

 

I can see that. 

Do you think that your husband is just clumsy doing it, or is he/was he "making a point" of some sort.

FF

[Notwendy]

I am not sure FF. I think it was to set the stage for our marriage with him as the man of the house as he saw it, Some of it had to do with his role model. You mentioned men acting like boys but I think it is more complicated than that. My FIL is a badass military guy. He is all man at work. At home though, co-dependent MIL does everything, cooks him 3 meals a day. I don't think the man has walked in the kitchen. I do know that if things aren't his way, he has a temper, however, I know he wouldn't hurt anyone physically, yet he yells enough to be scary.

I am not my MIL, yet I feel I have acted like her just to keep the peace. My problem with this was that, I didn't have a mother who did domestic things, and I wanted to be a good mom to my kids. Not having a role model, I took my H's lead on this- did what he wanted. If he wasn't happy, and blamed me, then I was likely to believe him.

A lot of this took place during a time when he painted me black. He does not do this now, and expects me to forget about it. One reason the T told me not to do this cooking/appeasement thing is that, there still is a lot of resentment for the years when, I was basically his housekeeper/nanny/cook with benefits. My incentive was mainly for the kids. I didn't want them to go through all the yelling and screaming that I witnessed as a child. But doing these things just to keep him quiet wasn't a good alternative either. It just seemed like the only thing I knew to do at the time.

But cooking is not something I don't want to do- and besides, we have to eat. If I want good healthy meals, then I need to make them.  I love to cook for my family but the resentment for the issues around it is something I struggle with. Once I cook for a family, it's the same job. I just wish the emotional baggage was not attached to it.

You mentioned man or boy, and I see a man in a different way. A man treats his wife kindly. It doesn't matter if that man is a badass manly man at his job, if he doesn't treat his wife kindly, then I think he isn't much of a man. If a man thinks that being manly means not doing the dishes, then that isn't manly to me. I do plenty of "man" things and I'm still female.

[formflier]

A man treats his wife kindly.

And a woman should treat her husband the same way.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I would encourage you to avoid the "staying in other room thing".

Perhaps sit with him and breakfast and if he won't let it go, be direct, even and firm about saying that your desire is to have a nice breakfast with him but if he chooses to continue picking at it... you will leave.  

Or perhaps pivot to "help me understand what I can do right now so we can enjoy breakfast."  :)on't pre-judge his response.  When he responds, don't debate it.  Either accept his proposal and do what he proposes or say no and go to  other room.

Ordinarily I would have joined him in the breakfast room, but the toxic outrage that he hurled at me really upset me and I didn't want to be anywhere near him. I like the "help me understand what I can do right now, so we can enjoy... ." I will try to remember that for other occasions. When he has one of these outbursts, "the whole day is ruined" and he makes sure that I don't forget that.  

Also work in a validation and/or SET with the truth being about his importance to you.

The pissy part of me says work in the truth that he is a grown man and can order his own damn supplements... .perhaps offer to help cut his food as well... . 

Anyone on here get the vibe that man that act like boys bug me... .?  

That's a good idea to validate and SET. I know this feeds into a core abandonment wound. And yes, my dad set the bar high for what a man is and I'm just dumbfounded by these juvenile or rather toddler-esque responses, though you'd think I'd be used to it by now.  

[Notwendy]

I agree, FF. I try to treat all people kindly, in general.

My issue was allowing others to not treat me kindly.  We have to remember to treat ourselves kindly ,and this may mean acting in ways that don't appear kind at first, but are in the long run, kind.

Kind with boundaries.

[Cat Familiar]

One reason this behavior is irritating isn't the action- I don't mind cooking, or ordering something for someone. I think it is the meaning attached to the action, and the behavior when it isn't done.

"If you do X for me, then I am loved, you love me. If you don't do X for me, then you are rejecting me, hurting me, I am the victim"... .Before I understood this, this kind of behavior worked well to ramp up my caretaking behavior. I didn't want my H to feel I didn't love him, so I kept on doing more, in hopes that he would feel loved and this issue would stop. But no matter how much I did, it didn't change it... .I was being blamed as the cause of the feelings (something I was used to growing up with BPD mom. ) But then, I realized that this had nothing to do with me. I am not a mean person, and I don't intentionally do things to hurt people. I was just being me, doing the best I could and eventually something I would do would be blamed for the feelings.

Yes, I kept doing more and he started doing less. One minor slip up, like you mention forgetting to buy something at the grocery store, could trigger such disproportionate outrage. Yet other times he's such a kind and tolerant man. So that tells me it's the core wound that's getting triggered.

I became very irritated that I was the only one cooking and I brought it up when we did counseling. Like your counselor said, Notwendy, mine told us that we should each cook for ourselves. I started cooking just what I wanted--like a salad or a smoothie on a hot evening and offering to make him some as well. He actually started cooking a little bit. To him, it wasn't "food" unless there was meat, potatoes, a vegetable. Over time, we've worked it out so that I cook one night and the following night he either takes us out, or he cooks something. With his recent health scare of high blood pressure, he's started to eat better and cook more vegetarian entrees. So major improvement.  

[Cat Familiar]

FF, good for you with the traditional Saint Pat's Day fare. I think my husband would like to come over to your house! 

The other one is that all the women he works with are horrified that he doesn't come home to a hot meal (not sure this is true or not). The other is that if he does that he'd be a henpecked husband.

Henpecked husband!  So 1950s!

I doubt that his female coworkers would be horrified. Quel enfant! 

[Cat Familiar]

But cooking is not something I don't want to do- and besides, we have to eat. If I want good healthy meals, then I need to make them.  I love to cook for my family but the resentment for the issues around it is something I struggle with. Once I cook for a family, it's the same job. I just wish the emotional baggage was not attached to it.

I used to enjoy cooking, but I've got some years of resentment built up around it. So now I only make what I want to make and that's it. I don't go out of my way to be creative--I do the minimal, which is really a shame. I think it's great when a husband and wife can work together in the kitchen.

He's the worst person to be around in the kitchen. If I get in front of him to open a drawer, he takes it personally, like it's an affront. I've worked in commercial kitchens and I've never been around anyone who is so uptight about being "in the way"--in a restaurant, it's like a flow, a dance and it can be joyful.

I do appreciate when he cooks, but good grief, the mess he makes for such inconsequential preparations! I learned early to clean up as I went, so that by the time I was plating food, almost everything was cleaned. When he's finished, it's a disaster! And we trade off cleaning after cooking, so I'm left with his mess, but he has little to do when I'm done. However, that said, he is learning from my example. I don't dare tell him anything--I just have to demonstrate it in my behavior.

[Notwendy]

Along with the female co-workers were comments about how all women like to do X, Y, Z and are always willing to hop in the sack.

1950's fantasy apparently. From the kitchen to the sack, with a smile. But for someone who didn't know what normal was, very intimidating to me. But nobody is good enough to erase a core wound.

I haven't gotten to the each cook for oneself thing. With kids, you just cook for everyone. Since my mother didn't cook so I don't have that "if you cook you love me" connection but for my H, it is an act of love. This is one reason to do it, but the flip side - "If you don't, I am not loved" is the one where I have the resentment. I spent a long time cooking ( and also sex) for the main purpose of avoiding being raged at. It was all I knew to try to fix my marriage at the time, but I went from a loving wife to a resentful sad person doing that.

[formflier]

Smelling good, about an hour to go!   

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Smelling good... .about an hour to go!   

FF

So, FF, how did the corned beef and cabbage turn out?

Husband is out the door to shop for food. Yay! Things can actually improve in a relationship with a pwBPD. 

[formflier]

 

Totally kicked a$$.  Next time I would do less celery and more onions and taters.  I had equal amounts of all.

Probably more pickling stuff too.

The "green" mashed potatoes turned out great.  Kids loved it. 

Plenty of leftovers for a bit too.

FF