Any words of wisdom on a sexless marriage?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

  What needs to change within yourself to give you permission to make a different choice?

I think Cat Familiar has found the question.  Sometimes asking the right question is the key to solving problems.

Answering this question does not bind you to make that change.  But, my gut tells me that until your wife see's  that you are serious about making changes, it is unlikely she will face whatever the issue(s) is/may be.

I also want to join Cat in saying a heartfelt "sorry dude, that sucks, " 

Focus on self-care,

FF

[formflier]

  What needs to change within yourself to give you permission to make a different choice?

I think Cat Familiar has found the question.  Sometimes asking the right question is the key to solving problems.

Answering this question does not bind you to make that change.  But, my gut tells me that until your wife see's  that you are serious about making changes, it is unlikely she will face whatever the issue(s) is/may be.

I also want to join Cat in saying a heartfelt "sorry dude, that sucks, " 

Focus on self-care,

FF

[byfaith]

What needs to change within yourself to give you permission to make a different choice?

to boil it down to the most simplistic answer, when I don't give a shred of crap about anyone's wellbeing except my own and I am willing to take all of the pain of severing a marriage.

[Reforming]

Hi byfaith,

I think there other members have offered some good advice. I know that doesn't make your choices any easier.

Quite some time before my relationship ended I went to see CBT therapist. My primary goal was dealing with procrastination but almost immediately our session focussed on my relationship and the lack of sexual intimacy. My therapist suggested that I raised the subject with my ex and explain that I needed to establish a definite timeline for some attempted progress.

I followed his advice and tried to gently and firmly explain to my ex that I couldn't continue with our relationship if we couldn't renew sexual intimacy. She felt hurt and resentful and the deadline came and went without her taking any steps.

Shortly after this point I got very depressed. Deep down I felt that if my ex really loved me she would make a genuine effort to try and work through our intimacy problem. I wasn't expecting miracles, but some effort from her to give me hope.

Looking back this was the death knell our relationship. I really loved my ex and I think I can understand how hard it is to put down this boundary knowing that it could very possibly lead to end of your marriage. It's very sad but for me staying with my ex without the physical intimacy that I craved did not save the relationship. We were left trapped an awful slow death that poisoned us both and the longer it lasted the more hopeless and powerless I felt.

No matter how dark it might seem it's worth remembering that you both have choices to make. She can choose to get help and try to overcome these difficulties - healing from CSA is enormously challenging but it's definitely possible.  She can also choose to ignore your needs and stick with the status quo. You cannot control her choices but you can make your own.

You can chose to stay and learn to live with consequences of this decision but I think it's important to honestly confront what this will mean. Or you can chose to leave with love, but a deep recognition that you deserve to be loved in the way that you need.

My heart goes out to you

Reforming

[formflier]

Might be reading too much into words.  Why do you have to take all the pain?

FF

[byfaith]

maybe I worded it wrong

If ending a marriage was not painful, people would not be as torn as they are as whether to stay or leave. Even though things are to the point of giving up on this, there is a level of love and caring for another person that I personally cannot dismiss.

I also know that if and when I call it quits, things will get ugly and nasty really quick on her part and I will have to deal with that and make my countermeasures etc. If this does end, it will not be pretty.

I know I can't predict the future and maybe I am trying to think too far in advance. All the ugly stuff that will go along with this I put into the pain category and I will have to find a way to "take" it and deal with it.

maybe it's like procrastinating on a painful surgery, after you go through the pain you are better off in the long run 

[Lucky Jim]

maybe it's like procrastinating on a painful surgery, after you go through the pain you are better off in the long run

Right, bf, It's about trading short-term pain for long-term happiness.  No doubt it will get ugly if and when you decide to leave.  The pain category that you mention is real and, in my experience, you have to be prepared for emotional rough sledding.  On the other hand, out there on the horizon is a much happier place.  Many people on this site understandably have a fear of the unknown, which keeps them stuck.  What I didn't realize before I went through the wringer of divorce is that the unknown is also where happiness resides.

Suggest you listen to your gut feelings.

LuckyJim

[Cat Familiar]

Getting out was no picnic, but I'd been through violence, infidelity, financial upheaval and more in the marriage, so the ordeal, in retrospect, wasn't nearly as bad as the marriage was.

And once I began the steps toward freeing myself, my joy, which had gone underground for many years, returned.

Oddly enough, I lost a lot of weight without trying. My ex always liked super skinny women, like Kate Moss in her "heroin chic" days. And even though I was at a normal weight, he bugged me about being fat. No matter what I tried, I could never lose those 15 pounds that would put me into what he considered the desirable range.

After I broke up with him, I lost all that weight and more in one month, eating healthy. My energy returned and I felt and looked years younger. Losing the albatross around my neck, my stress levels declined and I felt truly happy, in spite of going through an ugly and contentious divorce.

Now that I've immersed myself in another marriage to a pwBPD, I have to learn that lesson all over--about taking care of myself, instead of trying to be his caretaker. However this husband is kind and his personality disorder is mild in comparison. Yet it is so true that we codependents and recovering codependents seem to seek out people to help, so do be careful if this is the path you choose.

[formflier]

Byfaith,

I understand what you mean.  You were not implying that you had to take her pain. 

It is likely that you are right, it could/will get ugly.

The best you can do is offer clear choices and hopefully get clear responses.

Such as:  You have made it clear that you love her and want to be intimate.  My assumption from your story is that she didn't tell you NO, outright, but certainly implied that she didn't have much emotion left.  (Do I have that about right?).

It is loving and kind on your part to give her time to work through this.  7 weeks for the counselors program seems very generous.  My guess is that you won't be perfect (but who is?) during this time, but I would best you will try your heart out.

At the end of 7 weeks, it would be reasonable, assuming no intimacy by then to ask where we are at, and if this is going to happen.  Yes or no.  If yes, then when. 

If no, then a follow up question is, do you expect me to stay in a marriage with no intimacy?  (keep putting ball back in her court)

If she says no, then perhaps it won't be nasty.

If she says yes, she expects you to stay, then you need to be prepared to give her a clear yes or no.  (I'm assuming you will say you will not stay)

Perhaps the MC can help explain this to her.  If she really expects you to stay, doubtful you will listen.

But at this point, you have a clear view of what she really thinks of you.

Hard stuff, but trying to lay out a concrete plan that you can follow.

FF

[Reforming]

byfaith,

It's clear from what you've written that you really love and care for your wife. I think I understand how sad you must feel - you're in a really tough spot

Are you seeing a therapist on your own? Professional support from a skilled and objective T can help clarify what's going on. You won't get this in MC. It doesn't work that way

If your wife has suffered CSA then 7 weeks of therapy won't make much of dint and giving an unrealistic deadline will just make things worse

It generally takes a lot longer - a couple of years - to make meaningful progress and from what I've read it's tough ride for both partners. Things usually get a lot worse before they get better.

Do you think your wife is willing to get help? It's takes a lot of courage and strength to work through this stuff and she has got to make that decision herself.

Do you think you have the resources to deal with this process? My ex began therapy and promptly had an affair.

Nobody can tell you how to make these choices.

Keep posting

Reforming

[formflier]

Can someone define CSA please?

My assumption is childhood sex abuse, but want to make sure

[flourdust]

Can someone define CSA please?

My assumption is childhood sex abuse... .but want to make sure

Thanks for asking. My first thought was community supported agriculture (those farm-share programs), but that didn't seem right... .

[Reforming]

Hi Formflier,

CSA is childhood sexual abuse

Reforming

[ArleighBurke]

Just so I'm clear, ByFaith said his wife:

- was forced into sex WITH OTHER MEN by a previous partner

- and was held AT GUNPOINT when she didn't comply

I can completely understand her reluctance to have sex! That must be incredibly painful. And as others have said, this is not an issue that can be fixed by MC or threats. She will need MANY years of professional individual therepy.

For ByFaith: this is a horrible situation to be in. Of course you love her, and want to stay with her. But of course you cannot go without sex - that would be a very painful existance (as you have said). Yet on the other hand you cannot force her to change, you cannot will her to "get over this", and there is a chance that it may be 5+ years more before she does. And even then - it's not just "fixed" - it will be ALWAYS there. Hopefully her pain and anxiety will get less and less over time, but you never know when it will resurface. (My wife has childhood sexual trauma - but was never molested or raped. Despite her being over 40, and us being married for 15+yrs, I can still see it affecting our sex lives perhaps weekly. And I'm sure it affects her more than that but she doesn't show me)

Do you love her enough to accept you may never have her? Love is not unconditional - everyone has their deal breakers. It just really sux that this is not a deal breaker that she can control. Can you punish her for it? Should YOU be punished for it? Sometimes the situation just sux.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Can I add on to that?

I am focusing right now on the mindset that that it is what it is.  I have learned a ton about BPD, and I was elated to find out that there is a reason, and rules, behind my uBPDw's behavior.  That was a big step for me.  But, that was not enough.  Understanding helped me, a lot.  Now that I understand the past, I still have to move forward.  I have done that now by looking at each moment (if I can) and saying "yup, this is bad, but, it is what it is"

I can't cure it. I can't control it. It's not my fault.

All I can do is live with it, around it, or leave it.

Your situation might be similar.  You cannot change the past. I can't imagine how much hurt you and your wife may be in, but, it is done.   

[Notwendy]

I didn't realize the extent of the sexual abuse, but that is extensive.

I can not imagine (heaven forbid) what your wife went through. She was basically raped at gunpoint at the whim of someone she loved and trusted. Not only raped but betrayed.

It does not surprise me that she can not trust someone enough to be that vulnerable with them. This is serious trauma.

I agree that this is something to be radically accepted on your part. This was not her fault, but it is who she is. On the other hand, if she is unable to have sex with anyone, she needs to be clear about it- to herself. It isn't fair to expect sex from someone not able to participate in it.

However, I also think it is unfair of her to subject someone to a sexless marriage if that is what that person needs. Perhaps it would help to consider the aspect of love - as truth, light, and the best for each other. IMHO, I wouldn't want to subject someone to the agony of a sexless marriage unless he wanted that as well. Is your unhappiness the best for you? Is her being married to someone who she can not be intimate good for her or you?

Or can you accept that sex will not likely be a part of your marriage, at least not now. Yet there may be affection- hugging, etc, but not actual sex. Perhaps deciding, one way or the other can put this issue to rest for you.

[byfaith]

She was basically raped at gunpoint at the whim of someone she loved and trusted. Not only raped but betrayed.

It does not surprise me that she can not trust someone enough to be that vulnerable with them. This is serious trauma.

Yes it was traumatic. She was already divorced from this man. She did not love and trust this man. She talked to me how she wanted to kill him. This is before the the divorce was final.  She chose to move back in with him after the divorce was final. She chose financial gain over self respect. What she did was planned ahead of time and she was promised money if she did it.

she got to the point in the whole deal where she backed out before any sex took place when they were all in the room together. When she backed out and her ex was raging at her for backing out, that is when the gun was used. She knew all this crap would happen. (maybe not the gun part)

I can tell you right now I would never have stayed involved with her if I had known all this. She had me believe that when she divorced this man she was done with him when the divorce papers were signed. 

Correct me if I am wrong but rape is not a choice. She had a choice to not put herself in these preplanned situations. This is one example out of many. Physical abuse before her divorce, sexual perversion instigated by her then husband. so the divorce is FINAL and she still goes back for more.

All because of $$$$$. I am sorry if this seemed raw but when I end up thinking about it I have pity on her and then I don't and then I feel betrayed by her all over for not telling me the truth about this before we were married.

[byfaith]

I regret making the previous post. It brought up a lot of bad thoughts.

I had not posted about it yet but we had a decent weekend. My wife opened up to some more sexual contact. I am not being negative but there are so many other issues along with the sexual problems that they all seem to be equally destructive to our relationship at this point.

[Notwendy]

That does make the situation more complicated. It is hard to discern choice. Did she need the money? Was she desperate to take care of her child? This doesn't make excuses for her, but sheds light on her predicament. People do resort to desperate things when it comes to their kids.

Regardless, she has been traumatized and you are dealing with a sexless marriage. Both are tough.

It isn't the same, but I have read about marriages where one spouse realizes they are gay, or is gay and marries anyway. I have also read about these marriages where one spouse is a trans.

So here are two people who can dearly love each other in many ways, yet never really be sexually fulfilled with each other.  What do they do? It isn't about who is right or who is wrong- just that to be who they are does not include full sexual intimacy.

I imagine people work this out in different ways. I imagine some people stay together as a family, but make some arrangements for sexual fulfillment. Some people may separate.

Is it possible to make a decision without someone being wrong- just about the situation?

[Notwendy]

As to the previous post- nobody knows your wife, and as for me, not being judgemental. As a wise man once said " only someone who has not ever made some kind of error can throw the first stone".  I look at both of you with sympathy for a tough situation.

[byfaith]

Is it possible to make a decision without someone being wrong- just about the situation?

I hope so.

I have never really told her how strong I felt about being lied to. She "needed" money and her son at the time was 15 years old.

People do resort to desperate things when it comes to their kids. 

as you know her son now is a major issue ( in our life because of mental illness) and she has done desperate things concerning her son since we have been married, too long of a story to tell but it involved her leaving me to try to connect with a previous lover to give her son a better life opportunity.

we are still trying to work things out though. She has mentioned ptsd before. I may mention again to her seeing her own T aside from our MC.

[Notwendy]

I think FF said it- but the threads about her affectionate relationship with her son have also implied the closeness between them and that the marriage is affected by this- the son is part of the relationship.

One thing to consider is if the relationship with the son takes precedence over her relationship with you.

Without making her wrong- she is who she is, and she loves her son. She has choices. Those choices are to put him first and to not have sex ( or be able to have sex)

Your choice is to be in a marriage on those terms or not.

This is tough but I think by making the choice, then you can move on from this.