Cleaning up My Side of the Street

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I so appreciate how you all are helping me on this journey.

I want to take accountability for my part of the relationship piece, for my own sake. For me, and my growth. But I have a hard time seeing how that works in a non co-dependent way.

For example, my PTSD really flared in this relationship. I had times where I struggled with nightmares, with being reactive. Symptoms I haven't had for decades came back, like a startle response. I did try to address these issues. I was in therapy and I sought out new remedies, such as a med for the nightmares. I tried to manage my anxiety, sometimes with good results, others not.

But the ex and I also got into a blame cycle about it... While I was trapped in the FOG I felt he was right, this was proof of how incredibly difficult I was, and how he was trying to handle my crazy behavior but it was just too hard. He saw himself as pushed to the limits by my impossible behaviors. I felt trapped in a cycle where I tried to get him to see how hard his anger was for me, but that just made him madder. It got so the slightest reminder of one of my symptoms, such as hand-wringing, set him off.

Therapists tried to talk to me about how this, but the angrier he got at my symptoms (he called this "understandable frustration" the worse the PTSD got. I remember once in couples counseling him raging at me and saying no reasonable person could ever put up with me. I cried and believed him. Later the therapist told me that was not true, that he was the one with the issue. Stepping back now, I can see how he didn't need to react with anger, but with my FOO that is hard to internalize. 

I don't want it to be like two kids on the playground, each yelling, "you started it!" From my ex's perspective his anger (sorry, he would say frustration   ) was the understandable response to my anxious behavior. My perspective now might be closer to that his rages triggered my PTSD, and regardless of who started it the dynamic was very unhealthy for me. Having someone yell at me, be verbally abusive, storm off... .those behaviors were profoundly unsettling to me. They took me right back to childhood terrors.

So, how do I take accountability for my actions in a healthy way? I don't want to use my PTSD as a victim card to avoid responsibility for my behaviors. I want to go deeper than that and find a way to take accountability for my side of the street without getting into a co-dependent self-blame.

[HurtinNW]

I so appreciate how you all are helping me on this journey.

I want to take accountability for my part of the relationship piece, for my own sake. For me, and my growth. But I have a hard time seeing how that works in a non co-dependent way.

For example, my PTSD really flared in this relationship. I had times where I struggled with nightmares, with being reactive. Symptoms I haven't had for decades came back, like a startle response. I did try to address these issues. I was in therapy and I sought out new remedies, such as a med for the nightmares. I tried to manage my anxiety, sometimes with good results, others not.

But the ex and I also got into a blame cycle about it... While I was trapped in the FOG I felt he was right, this was proof of how incredibly difficult I was, and how he was trying to handle my crazy behavior but it was just too hard. He saw himself as pushed to the limits by my impossible behaviors. I felt trapped in a cycle where I tried to get him to see how hard his anger was for me, but that just made him madder. It got so the slightest reminder of one of my symptoms, such as hand-wringing, set him off.

Therapists tried to talk to me about how this, but the angrier he got at my symptoms (he called this "understandable frustration" the worse the PTSD got. I remember once in couples counseling him raging at me and saying no reasonable person could ever put up with me. I cried and believed him. Later the therapist told me that was not true, that he was the one with the issue. Stepping back now, I can see how he didn't need to react with anger, but with my FOO that is hard to internalize. 

I don't want it to be like two kids on the playground, each yelling, "you started it!" From my ex's perspective his anger (sorry, he would say frustration   ) was the understandable response to my anxious behavior. My perspective now might be closer to that his rages triggered my PTSD, and regardless of who started it the dynamic was very unhealthy for me. Having someone yell at me, be verbally abusive, storm off... .those behaviors were profoundly unsettling to me. They took me right back to childhood terrors.

So, how do I take accountability for my actions in a healthy way? I don't want to use my PTSD as a victim card to avoid responsibility for my behaviors. I want to go deeper than that and find a way to take accountability for my side of the street without getting into a co-dependent self-blame.

[patientandclear]

The framework I arrived at for this is that "what we need and can give don't match." My ex, pending many years of therapy, needed someone who would never be hurt by his objectively hurtful behaviors or was so indifferent or doormat-ish that they would stuff that hurt. He needs someone who will not need him to change or consider changing one iota, or hear that his present ways hurt the other person. I'm not sure that exists and he hasn't found it yet, but that's what he needs. After considering trying to be that, I've had to realize I can't or won't, and shouldn't, despite how much I liked and loved him. Because given my abuse history, that is a road I need not to go down again. My self protective behaviors are not extreme (nor are yours it sounds like--sounds like you are triggered by REAL threat to your emotional safety, not imaginary ones) and I need to honor them.

Consequently, what we need and can give don't match. What I need to do to respect and protect myself sets him off. What he needs to do to feel "free," not controlled, to protect and define his fragile self, sets me off. He rejects me and what I need as a self-definition exercise. It feels good to him and he has not acquired an analytical framework that would allow him to resist those impulses. That is just how it is.

It's also important to register that your self protective impulses make objective sense. You are responding to real current dangers/hurts with him; your past amplifies your need to protect/not abandon yourself, but it isn't distorting your perception of what is going on now (see your therapist's comment about who has the problem). It seems likely his impulses don't make objective sense in the context of your r/ship. He may be responding to real fears, but they originated outside of your r/ship and are being projected on you. The point is this is that you are not wrong to find his behavior hurtful. You would probably not find every partner's behavior hurtful; you're responding to what he is actually doing. Whereas he probably would find every partner hurtful.

So in terms of taking accountability: you can accept the fact that your emotional reactions don't work for him--without concluding there is something wrong with your emotional reactions.

[C.Stein]

So, how do I take accountability for my actions in a healthy way? I don't want to use my PTSD as a victim card to avoid responsibility for my behaviors. I want to go deeper than that and find a way to take accountability for my side of the street without getting into a co-dependent self-blame.

I believe the place to start is to identify your role, the mistakes you made, things you did or did not do that contributed to instability and/or dysfunction of the relationship.  This is stuff that you and you alone own.  This applies not only to the impact on him and the relationship in general but more importantly how your own behavior/choices impacted you.  I think once you can pinpoint the why and the how of these you will know the direction you need to take in order to learn and grow from this experience. 

It is good that you recognize using PTSD as a victim card is not going to lead to positive growth.   This takes a lot of maturity and self-awareness and is a great start to gaining a better understanding of yourself. 

Perhaps you can start with trying to understand why certain things that happened triggered your PTSD and how your own behavior might have contributed to it?

[Notwendy]

My ex, pending many years of therapy, needed someone who would never be hurt by his objectively hurtful behaviors or was so indifferent or doormat-ish that they would stuff that hurt. He needs someone who will not need him to change or consider changing one iota, or hear that his present ways hurt the other person.


Reading this made me think of rewording it this way:

My ex, pending many years of therapy, needed someone who would not be hurt by his objectively hurtful behaviors and he wanted someone who will not need him to change or consider changing one iota, or hear that his present ways hurt the other person. But what he needs is someone who isn't afraid of him and who will not tolerate his behavior and who would require him to change.

Basically that is the role of a parent, or sponsor. I don't know if it is possible for someone to "raise" their partner in the way a parent isn't afraid or hurt by their kid's tantrum and holds a firm boundary. In this situation, the parent has the upper hand, which is not the case in a relationship between adults.

I recognize a similar pattern in my marriage. I don't have PTSD but I am triggered into fear by being raged at. I have experienced where, if my H is angry, my being anxious or fearful or showing that I am hurt has triggered his anger even more. This is something I have worked on with the MC- personally, just me. First, she established that I was not at risk for physical harm and helped me to work on fear. It has helped, me, to not be fearful of the rages. In addition, they have diminished since we are both more aware of what triggers us. I will say that this work was done after many years of marriage, and children, not dating.

I don't know what my decisions would have been in a dating situation. What I do know is that we tend to choose partners who trigger our childhood issues, and this is a motivation to work on them, because if it happens with one partner, and we don't do the work, we risk choosing another partner who triggers similar issues.

This is probably a big motivation, HW, to clean up your side of the street regardless of what happens in this relationship or his part in it.  This is a part of you that attracted you to your SO. Ironically, these "what we need and can give don't match" relationships are a platform for growth, no matter what the outcome.

[HurtinNW]

Excellent points and insights!

patientandclear: that is a mature, kind way of looking at it. Our needs and wants didn't match. What he needed I could not give, and I don't believe anyone can, but that doesn't matter. What I needed he couldn't give. Whether anyone can is another story, but I am realizing I need to give it to myself first.

You wrote: "My self protective behaviors are not extreme (nor are yours it sounds like--sounds like you are triggered by REAL threat to your emotional safety, not imaginary ones) and I need to honor them."

Sometimes it seemed I was reacting to imaginary threats. At least he would say that. Such as a having a startle reflex to him dropping a book. Of course that was after getting to a point I was always on edge, waiting for him to rage. I did often feel my emotional safety was threatened. It was threatened all the time, because I never had a "safe" place in the relationship. Whether I was right to feel threatened is an endless loop I got pulled into by his accusations and blame.

C.Stein, thank you. I did do things that contributed to the instability of the relationship. Without a doubt!

My behavior did impact me as well, because it made me feel even worse about myself. Falling apart, crying, having panic attacks, PTSD episodes... .I felt crummy about it and still do. My self-worth went downhill not just from his behavior but my reactions.

A big thing I need to come clean about and own is how sometimes my behavior was the catalyst. Once my PTSD got activated I had a hard time calming back down and becoming peaceful and serene. I was on edge too. There were times I wanted to talk about things, and talk, when I knew it would lead to a rage on his part. What I really wanted was for him to console and soothe me, but I knew that would not happen.

There is a move now in PTSD treatment circles to recognize that sometimes those with PTSD will seek out the traumatizing event. A good example is soldiers who repeatedly ask to return to combat even though it is destroying them and will trigger their PTSD. I am trying to be kind to myself that there were times I probably knew at some level I was doing something that would not go well. I was returning to the scene of combat willing, even seeking it out, knowing the ground was littered with IEDs and my soul was going to get blown to smithereens.

An example: He had a lot of physical manifestations of anger that really triggered me. He slammed doors, screamed in my face, bared his teeth and a few times got physical with me. His verbal abuse completely triggered me. Given that it wouldn't make any sense for me to say and do things I knew he would rage about. But I did. More than once.

I think it would be easy for me to hide behind his reaction but I want to go deeper and ask myself why I was engaged in that dynamic.

One insight I am having is I think part of me was hoping the next time he would not react, "see the light," and comfort and soothe me. Instead what happened is his fuse got ever shorter, and he was primed to react. Basically I was permanently installed on the combat field. I am not proud to admit it but I think there were times I did things knowing he would react.

[C.Stein]

My behavior did impact me as well, because it made me feel even worse about myself. Falling apart, crying, having panic attacks, PTSD episodes... .I felt crummy about it and still do. My self-worth went downhill not just from his behavior but my reactions.

A big thing I need to come clean about and own is how sometimes my behavior was the catalyst. Once my PTSD got activated I had a hard time calming back down and becoming peaceful and serene. I was on edge too. There were times I wanted to talk about things, and talk, when I knew it would lead to a rage on his part. What I really wanted was for him to console and soothe me, but I knew that would not happen.

There is a move now in PTSD treatment circles to recognize that sometimes those with PTSD will seek out the traumatizing event. A good example is soldiers who repeatedly ask to return to combat even though it is destroying them and will trigger their PTSD. I am trying to be kind to myself that there were times I probably knew at some level I was doing something that would not go well. I was returning to the scene of combat willing, even seeking it out, knowing the ground was littered with IEDs and my soul was going to get blown to smithereens.

An example: He had a lot of physical manifestations of anger that really triggered me. He slammed doors, screamed in my face, bared his teeth and a few times got physical with me. His verbal abuse completely triggered me. Given that it wouldn't make any sense for me to say and do things I knew he would rage about. But I did. More than once.

I think it would be easy for me to hide behind his reaction but I want to go deeper and ask myself why I was engaged in that dynamic.

One insight I am having is I think part of me was hoping the next time he would not react, "see the light," and comfort and soothe me. Instead what happened is his fuse got ever shorter, and he was primed to react. Basically I was permanently installed on the combat field. I am not proud to admit it but I think there were times I did things knowing he would react.

This is an excellent start on your journey of self-understanding and positive growth.  

With respect to the bold section, did you ever tell him you needed to be comforted and soothed?  With my ex I found she had to be led to the water because she couldn't see certain things on her own.

[HurtinNW]

C. Stein, to answer your question:

Yes. Both in therapy and outside of it I was pretty good about asking him to soothe me. I would ask him to hold me, for instance. Our second couples therapist would also suggest he hold me.

My  observation is it was simply too difficult for him to stay in that place. His trigger was feeling blamed. I learned to preface my comments with, "It is not your fault," for instance, and that helped. But my PTSD symptoms in and of themselves felt like an accusation to him. So from my perspective when he did try to soothe me it was in an angry, defensive way. For instance, holding me with slightly wooden arms, sighing, acting exasperated. I knew he was indeed trying, but he was overrun with his own feelings. I had a hard time understanding that lack of stretch on his part. His efforts to soothe me had a very short time limit on them, and in some ways end up feeling dangerous to me as well. Because if I didn't "calm down" right away he would get angry about that.

I also felt that his efforts to soothe were not about caretaking or nurturing me, but about getting rid of my feelings. In fact he told me that in his group they repeatedly confronted him on doing things that appeared comforting, such as reaching out to another member, but told him it was really about him trying to make other people's feelings go away.

But since I am focusing on my side of the street, I did not manage my PTSD enough myself. I made him the one in power and control. I put all my emotional needs in his basket. That was a set up for him and set up for me. Rather than getting my needs met I simply normalized his maladaptive reactions. Over and over again.

Right now, over here on my side of the street, I can see my own needy, hurting little child, wandering around, kicking garbage cans and expecting them not to be garbage cans, lonely and sad and not doing what she needs to do to get her needs met. Instead of going and knocking on the door of a nice, safe neighbor that hurt, angry and bewildered little girl keeps kicking the darn garbage cans.

Also, something Skip is saying on another thread is very true for me too. I became resentful and hurt and angry. I stopped being as compassionate towards him. There were times I said and did things that were motivated by my anger, and I didn't see that or own it. I stopped trying to build him up and instead retreated. In the article about relationship stages I engaged in the death spiral by no longer providing the nourishment of the relationship. I retreated behind my own wall. So did my kids. The two roles that Skip posted are very true of our relationship.

[unicorn2014]

Hi Hurt in NW, I hope you don't mind my contribution. I too have PTSD and what you're describing to me doesn't just sound like PTSD. Are you sure that is the only disorder you are dealing with? I'm not saying your ex is justified in how he treated you, not at all. What I'm saying is I think your concept of your self may not be seeing everything. For example the low self esteem you seem to be exhibiting is not a trait of PTSD, to my knowledge, nor the willingness to accept bad behavior from your ex. That sounds more like Stockholm Syndrome, for example.

[HurtinNW]

Unicorn, I don't know what definitions of PTSD you are referring to, but the dx of PTSD includes "persistent and exaggerated negative beliefs or expectations about oneself, others, or the world (e.g., “I am bad,” “No one can be trusted,” "The world is completely dangerous", persistent, distorted blame of self or others about the cause or consequences of the traumatic events."  For instance, see: www.adaa.org/understanding-anxiety/posttraumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd/symptoms.

All of my symptoms, from the startle reflex to what you term willingness to accept bad behavior (which would fall under "blame of self" are part of the diagnosis of PTSD. I have been diagnosed since I was young and first sought help as a teenager. Lately I have realized my dx might be closer to complex PTSD, though I am very high functioning. Until this relationship my PTSD was largely in remission.

Quite honestly, I find your suggestion I am suffering from another disorder to be strange and a little insulting. I am honest and clear with myself about my challenges. I have noticed that since I disagreed with you in your threads you have started questioning me in a manner that frankly I am not sure is really about me.

[unicorn2014]

Unicorn, I don't know what definitions of PTSD you are referring to, but the dx of PTSD includes "persistent and exaggerated negative beliefs or expectations about oneself, others, or the world (e.g., “I am bad,” “No one can be trusted,” "The world is completely dangerous", persistent, distorted blame of self or others about the cause or consequences of the traumatic events."  For instance, see: www.adaa.org/understanding-anxiety/posttraumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd/symptoms.

All of my symptoms, from the startle reflex to what you term willingness to accept bad behavior (which would fall under "blame of self" are part of the diagnosis of PTSD. I have been diagnosed since I was young and first sought help as a teenager. Lately I have realized my dx might be closer to complex PTSD, though I am very high functioning. Until this relationship my PTSD was largely in remission.

Quite honestly, I find your suggestion I am suffering from another disorder to be strange and a little insulting. I am honest and clear with myself about my challenges. I have noticed that since I disagreed with you in your threads you have started questioning me in a manner that frankly I am not sure is really about me.

Hi Hurt in NW, I don't want to disrupt your thread so I will say that complex PTSD is very different from PTSD and it sounds like you are aware of this. If you have any further questions about my point of view please free to message me so we don't interrupt your discussion . I will finish by saying that complex PTSD and BPD can sometimes exhibit the same symptoms. What I am saying to you is out of love and compassion and I apologize the text medium is not able to convey that.

[HurtinNW]

Unicorn, I don't know what definitions of PTSD you are referring to, but the dx of PTSD includes "persistent and exaggerated negative beliefs or expectations about oneself, others, or the world (e.g., “I am bad,” “No one can be trusted,” "The world is completely dangerous", persistent, distorted blame of self or others about the cause or consequences of the traumatic events."  For instance, see: www.adaa.org/understanding-anxiety/posttraumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd/symptoms.

All of my symptoms, from the startle reflex to what you term willingness to accept bad behavior (which would fall under "blame of self" are part of the diagnosis of PTSD. I have been diagnosed since I was young and first sought help as a teenager. Lately I have realized my dx might be closer to complex PTSD, though I am very high functioning. Until this relationship my PTSD was largely in remission.

Quite honestly, I find your suggestion I am suffering from another disorder to be strange and a little insulting. I am honest and clear with myself about my challenges. I have noticed that since I disagreed with you in your threads you have started questioning me in a manner that frankly I am not sure is really about me.

Hi Hurt in NW, I don't want to disrupt your thread so I will say that complex PTSD is very different from PTSD and it sounds like you are aware of this. If you have any further questions about my point of view please free to message me so we don't interrupt your discussion . I will finish by saying that complex PTSD and BPD can sometimes exhibit the same symptoms. What I am saying to you is out of love and compassion and I apologize the text medium is not able to convey that.

If you are implying I have BPD I'd rather the conversation stay public. Can you please tell me exactly what symptoms I have that "just don't sound like PTSD" and to you suggest another disorder? Please clarify. It truly sounds like you are implying I have BPD. I see nothing in the painfully honest, self-reflective posts I have written that indicate I have BPD. I am curious what is going on with you emotionally that makes you want to make that charge.

[unicorn2014]

Hi Hurt in NW, I'm not  implying you have BPD, you have already identified that your symptoms are more like that of C-PTSD then PTSD and I was pointing out that C-PTSD is like BPD on the surface to show how different PTSD and C-PTSD are. Since you are aware you have complex PTSD symptoms and have a therapist I think you are on the right track.

[HurtinNW]

Other members, please tell me if I am off-base.

Unicorn, I posted this thread to examine, in painful detail, my own accountability. It was derailed by our conversation. 

1) You tell me what I describe is not like PTSD, which has been diagnosed by several doctors, and ask "Are you sure that is the only disorder you are dealing with?"

2) I tell you with detail how my symptoms are in fact diagnosed PTSD and even give a citation showing the diagnosis and symptoms of PTSD and how it fits.

3) You ignore these definitions and respond: "I will finish by saying that complex PTSD and BPD can sometimes exhibit the same symptoms."

4) I ask you to tell me exactly how my symptoms don't fit with PTSD.

5) You do not respond to that and continue to suggest my symptoms are "similar" to BPD.

Honestly, I feel like my effort to clean up my side of the street here were torpedoed by your circular arguments around whether or not I have PTSD or something else, including the implied BPD which you brought up.

The truth is that while PTSD and BPD can share some symptoms, one of the differences is in strong, attached, consistent relationships. I have multiple strong relationships, including my ex of 15 years who is still my friend, my kids, and friends going back for decades. I don't split, engage in triangulation, or have the sad fragmented life my ex does. I can see the other side... .sometimes too much. And look, here I am, engaging in JADE with someone I've never met who is saying I am "not seeing everything."

I've weighed how to respond to all this. I've decided to continue to be honest.

Initially you said this:"What I'm saying is I think your concept of your self may not be seeing everything."



What do you think I am not seeing?

[Notwendy]

It is true that symptoms of different emotional problems can overlap. Something like anxiety is seen in a lot of different ones. People can have more than one as well. In addition, emotional issues are a spectrum, with some people experiencing some more than others. This is why people need education, training, and experience to make any kind of diagnosis. IMHO, if a poster is in therapy with a trained T, then the T is in the best position to decide what is going on with them.

This is a lay board. We can certainly share our own perspectives. However, if there is a difference in opinion about symptoms, again, the person's T is in the better position to determine what is going on in that realm.

[Notwendy]

Hurtin, while we are on the topic of cleaning up one's side of the fence, and you did mention JADE, I would like to share something about boundaries.

I also grew up with parents who chose to define me. My sense of self as a child was either validated or invalidated according to my mother's feelings. I also grew up looking at her for a sense of feedback of how I was behaving. This was a survival mechanism. If I was a " good girl" or "bad girl" according to her, I would either be OK with my parents or not.

I had to learn what is my truth and what isn't true. In the beginning of my marriage, my H would approach me with various accusations- usually about how I wasn't doing something enough. I assumed it was true and tried to change to make things better. It took me a long time to figure out that some of these were not about me. Much of our circular arguments involved me JADEing to defend his accusations.

It was our MC who brought up the idea that, people can say something about me, and then, I can filter it through my own sense of self and decide if it was true or not. If it wasn't true, then I had nothing to defend. She brought up the fact that defending something that isn't true, in a way, validates it. Often we JADE when something said to us triggers a fear or something emotional with us. That doesn't mean it is true, but that we can look at what is triggered. For instance, if someone told me I was not a nice person, the trigger would be fear of losing the relationship. But if I believe I am a nice person, then being told I am not doesn't change who I am. I don't have to defend that.

Boundaries involve a stronger sense of self. This is something that takes time and work, but there really is a sense of freedom. I can recall the moment when I realized that I wasn't triggered as much by the things my mother was saying to me. It was at that point that I could listen to her and stay calm.

[C.Stein]

My  observation is it was simply too difficult for him to stay in that place. His trigger was feeling blamed. I learned to preface my comments with, "It is not your fault," for instance, and that helped. But my PTSD symptoms in and of themselves felt like an accusation to him. So from my perspective when he did try to soothe me it was in an angry, defensive way. For instance, holding me with slightly wooden arms, sighing, acting exasperated. I knew he was indeed trying, but he was overrun with his own feelings. I had a hard time understanding that lack of stretch on his part. His efforts to soothe me had a very short time limit on them, and in some ways end up feeling dangerous to me as well. Because if I didn't "calm down" right away he would get angry about that.

I also felt that his efforts to soothe were not about caretaking or nurturing me, but about getting rid of my feelings. In fact he told me that in his group they repeatedly confronted him on doing things that appeared comforting, such as reaching out to another member, but told him it was really about him trying to make other people's feelings go away.

Perhaps this is something you can work on here?  I'm going to engage in some speculation here.  I think the reason he acts like he does when he attempts to comfort/sooth you is because he doesn't know how to do it.  This causes him to feel extremely uncomfortable and when he perceives his attempts are not working he becomes frustrated.  When he is trying he is probably hypersensitive to your responses (body language, tone of voice, what you are saying).  Anything you do, no matter how slight, that tells him his attempts to comfort/sooth are not working will push him away.  

What can you do to change this?   How can you teach him not only to recognize when you need comfort/soothing but also how to provide it?  How can you change your own behavior so he not only knows how to comfort and sooth but also so he feels confident and comfortable in providing it?  

[Notwendy]

Good comment, but during a separation - either permanent or not, there isn't the opportunity to practice learning how to soothe.

My personal observation is about self soothing. That is an important skill and something people with dysfunction or who have grown up in dysfunctional families may not have strongly. A topic that is brought up in Passionate Marriage is the idea of "holding on to oneself" during times of relationship stresses.

I would make sense to assume that someone with poor self soothing skills would not be able to soothe someone else well. It's hard to be present for someone else when one's own emotions are unsettled. In addition, someone with poor boundaries may have a tough time being in the presence of someone else who is upset as it is hard to know which is their feelings and which are the other person's.

Add to this, the tendency to project bad feelings onto someone else, and one can see how someone could get angry and lash out, trying to stop the bad feelings if asked to soothe someone else, because those feelings are so hard to deal with. They would try to stop them with the only skills they have.

I think that the skill of learning to soothe someone else can be taught, but that a place to start is with learning to self soothe. This is a tough one for someone with BPD. What we can do is get better at our own self soothing skills. When we can stay calm and become less reactive to other people, then it helps us and our relationships.

[C.Stein]

I think that the skill of learning to soothe someone else can be taught, but that a place to start is with learning to self soothe. This is a tough one for someone with BPD. What we can do is get better at our own self soothing skills. When we can stay calm and become less reactive to other people, then it helps us and our relationships.

I agree.  It is kinda like love.  In order to truly love another you first must love yourself.  I can relate to the difficulty in soothing when your own emotions are in the way.  The only way to overcome this is as you said, stay calm and less reactive, be more grounded.  Practicing Pranayama (yoga breathing exercises) is one way to ground yourself when you feel yourself becoming more reactive.  This might require a temporary "time out".   

[Notwendy]

This was a challenge for me too. I didn't consider the impact of having a mother who could not do this. She expected me to take care of her. As a mom, there were many times my kids ran to me as small kids " Mommy I have a boo boo" or some other upset, and I held them. There were also tantrums where I had to stay calm and firm. Through this, they learned to self soothe. I learned to not approach my mother as not to upset her.

There's also some Venus and Mars in this. My H grew up with a tough, stern " Big boys don't cry" father but Dad could get angry so the message was also "Big boys can get mad". Perhaps anger was the way to self soothe.

Which was a set up for issues. If I was upset, then if my H saw me upset, he would feel bad and then get mad. This response felt similar to what I experienced growing up and became a difficult situation for me- but also an opportunity to be aware of that. Learning boundaries and self soothing was very helpful to me. 

[HurtinNW]

Hurtin, while we are on the topic of cleaning up one's side of the fence, and you did mention JADE, I would like to share something about boundaries.

I also grew up with parents who chose to define me. My sense of self as a child was either validated or invalidated according to my mother's feelings. I also grew up looking at her for a sense of feedback of how I was behaving. This was a survival mechanism. If I was a " good girl" or "bad girl" according to her, I would either be OK with my parents or not.

I had to learn what is my truth and what isn't true. In the beginning of my marriage, my H would approach me with various accusations- usually about how I wasn't doing something enough. I assumed it was true and tried to change to make things better. It took me a long time to figure out that some of these were not about me. Much of our circular arguments involved me JADEing to defend his accusations.

It was our MC who brought up the idea that, people can say something about me, and then, I can filter it through my own sense of self and decide if it was true or not. If it wasn't true, then I had nothing to defend. She brought up the fact that defending something that isn't true, in a way, validates it. Often we JADE when something said to us triggers a fear or something emotional with us. That doesn't mean it is true, but that we can look at what is triggered. For instance, if someone told me I was not a nice person, the trigger would be fear of losing the relationship. But if I believe I am a nice person, then being told I am not doesn't change who I am. I don't have to defend that.

Boundaries involve a stronger sense of self. This is something that takes time and work, but there really is a sense of freedom. I can recall the moment when I realized that I wasn't triggered as much by the things my mother was saying to me. It was at that point that I could listen to her and stay calm.

Notwendy, I woke up thinking about this very thing. I went to sleep asking myself, why is this upsetting me?

As I've mentioned on this board many times, my ex was verbally abusive. His favorite tactic was to accuse me of being crazy, deranged, damaged, and unloveable. Not coincidentally I had told him this was what my mentally ill, alcoholic mother would do. One of my earliest childhood memories is trying to tell my mother I was being molested and her saying I was crazy. I was four.

Being told I am crazy is definitely a tender spot for me, and one my ex used to hurt me.

The fear behind the hurt is, of course, that it is true. That goes back to early childhood for me. Children take everything their mothers say as the gospel, and I did. I grew up with this fear: what if it is true?

I know it isn't true. i have enough evidence in my life that it isn't true, and that core part of self that knows it isn't true. But this relationship went at that jugular over and over again, and my self of self really slipped back into that black hole of doubt. While I am cleaning up my side of the street I have to look at what I did to go there too. I don't want to give a bunch of examples, but repeatedly my ex would deny saying something I was sure he had said. After awhile I started doubting myself, especially given the PTSD. So it is still a really tender spot for me.

I know I need to work on my sense of self so if someone does say that it won't bother me. If I had a secure enough self of self in my relationship I would not have been triggered by it by my ex. Or anyone else.

[HurtinNW]

C. Stein and Notwendy:

My take is he did try at times to soothe me, and as C says, didn't have the skills. I also think he has an incredibly difficult time being in the same space as any emotion. So the intent was there, but when he actually tried to do it, he projected his own difficulty on me and lashed out angrily. There is a FOO reason for that for him but I will leave it since I'm working industriously over here on my side of the street

I really do need to learn more self-soothing skills. I am really good at self-care. I work out every day, walk the dog, do my art, play with my kids... .I genuinely love life and find beauty in every day. But when it comes to my pain and sadness and hurt, I do not honor it. I suspect sometimes I use self-care to avoid sitting in the feelings.

So back to my side of the street: one piece of accountability is when I got triggered by him I wanted him to soothe me. I didn't work enough at soothing myself. I had this big need for nurturing that translated into a high demand on him to be emotionally present and loving. I side-stepped my responsibility to myself to take care of myself when triggered and upset.

A good example of this for me is when he would rage and take breaks. I hated those silent treatments. I could have used those times to regulate myself and self-soothe. Instead I stored the hurt and wanted him to soothe me when we reengaged. This gave power to that abuse cycle, because he responded with anger. So the cycle shortened and sharpened and got uglier each time.

Another accountability for me is putting my kids through this. I am sorting those feelings out. I've always known I had a firm boundary around a few things: infidelity and abusing my kids. For a long time his impact was through coming and going. He didn't expose them to his rages. But towards the end he was taking off the mask with them, and I saw the slide towards abuse. I also was forced to confront that his coming and going was damaging in and of itself. Children deserve stability.

I wrestling with guilt and shame over this, and taking care not to dump on myself too much. But I also want to be present for those feelings and deal with them.

[Notwendy]

Fear that I would be like my mother is something that has scared me.

When my father was angry at me, he would call me by her name. It scared me because I thought it meant he thought I was like her. Now, in a way, I think it was a bit of a slip of his thinking. There was no way anyone could ever yell at her without hell to pay for it. Now, I wonder if, when he was angry at me, it was displaced anger at her. But then it scared me.

So, if anyone says I have any similar traits it is triggering. But many traits are either learned behaviors from her or OK to have as well. They don't mean I have BPD. Also, as a kid, I saw her in black and white- all bad. I didn't want to be anything like her. Yet she has some good qualities as well and denying all of her influence is probably not a good thing either.

For example, my mother loves the arts, played classical records and musicals when I was a kid. I should give her credit for my awareness and interest in the arts since childhood.

As to your kids, they learn a lot from you. I don't speak negatively of others if I can, but they are aware of my FOO. They are old enough. I do share with them that I am working on it, that it is something worth working on. I am trying to model that, even if we are not perfect ( nobody is) we can all work on being emotionally healthy. You can give them that.

[HurtinNW]

Fear that I would be like my mother is something that has scared me.

When my father was angry at me, he would call me by her name. It scared me because I thought it meant he thought I was like her. Now, in a way, I think it was a bit of a slip of his thinking. There was no way anyone could ever yell at her without hell to pay for it. Now, I wonder if, when he was angry at me, it was displaced anger at her. But then it scared me.

So, if anyone says I have any similar traits it is triggering. But many traits are either learned behaviors from her or OK to have as well. They don't mean I have BPD. Also, as a kid, I saw her in black and white- all bad. I didn't want to be anything like her. Yet she has some good qualities as well and denying all of her influence is probably not a good thing either.

For example, my mother loves the arts, played classical records and musicals when I was a kid. I should give her credit for my awareness and interest in the arts since childhood.

As to your kids, they learn a lot from you. I don't speak negatively of others if I can, but they are aware of my FOO. They are old enough. I do share with them that I am working on it, that it is something worth working on. I am trying to model that, even if we are not perfect ( nobody is) we can all work on being emotionally healthy. You can give them that.

My mother had lots of wonderful traits, and I am far more at peace with accepting that then I once was. I've mentioned I have compassion for her. She committed suicide. We have a lot of suicides in my family.

When she was sober, my mother was capable of warmth, humor and affection. I picked up a lot of my affection from her. She had such a deep load of shame, I am sorry for her she turned it outwards. I truly hope she has found peace. I am forgiving her. (it is a journey)

Being a parent is a source of healthy pride and identity for me. I feel good I have been successful as a parent. I define success as raising kids who are kind, responsible, have integrity and boundaries. My kids are all teens and young adults now and I am super proud of them. The older two work full time and go to school, and the youngest is a sweetheart. I was able to give them the childhood I didn't have. One of the benefits of being a mom is I got to experience a happy childhood with them. That alone has been instrumental to my own healing.

I've told them I am working hard on my own issues. They are super supportive. They are also relieved my ex is not around. I don't talk bad about people either, but I have validated their feelings about him. I think at this point we can all heal and move on. I do think if I recycle anymore I am crossing the line into being a bad example for them, as well as exposing them to dysfunction.

[Grey Kitty]

  HurtinNW, I'm jumping into a really interesting topic very late... .and going to bounce back to the beginning.

So, how do I take accountability for my actions in a healthy way? I don't want to use my PTSD as a victim card to avoid responsibility for my behaviors. I want to go deeper than that and find a way to take accountability for my side of the street without getting into a co-dependent self-blame.

In other topics, you've concluded that you need to get out of your r/s because you cannot make it be safe for you... .and I think accepting this is a good start.

Your healthy balance centers around accepting yourself as you are today... .whether that is permanent or temporary. (For example, if I had the flu today, I wouldn't have the energy to do a bunch of things today... .but next week it won't slow me down. That doesn't make my limitations today any less real)

Through therapy, etc. you can resolve some or all your PTSD symptoms. You did some things you now know better than in this relationship (JADEing, for example). There are things which are triggering to you for reasons that predate this relationship, and you can work on desensitizing yourself to some of these. All very good things to work on. All cleaning up your side of the street.

The other thing to accept is that working on these things and healing them requires certain safe conditions for you. This relationship wasn't that kind of safe place for you. You cannot rebuild things or repair things on your side of the street... .if it is burning down while you try to do it. You need to put the fire out first.

Perhaps somebody else could have dealt with the issues on your side of the street without needing to split. Perhaps not. Everything you say indicates that it was not possible for you. So this is the only way you can work on your side of the street.

[HurtinNW]

Through therapy, etc. you can resolve some or all your PTSD symptoms. You did some things you now know better than in this relationship (JADEing, for example). There are things which are triggering to you for reasons that predate this relationship, and you can work on desensitizing yourself to some of these. All very good things to work on. All cleaning up your side of the street.

The other thing to accept is that working on these things and healing them requires certain safe conditions for you. This relationship wasn't that kind of safe place for you. You cannot rebuild things or repair things on your side of the street... .if it is burning down while you try to do it. You need to put the fire out first.

Perhaps somebody else could have dealt with the issues on your side of the street without needing to split. Perhaps not. Everything you say indicates that it was not possible for you. So this is the only way you can work on your side of the street.

That is a really helpful way to look at it, Grey Kitty. I think I tend to look at my behaviors in isolation, which is not very compassionate towards myself. I need to look at the environment too. I have a tendency to set really high standards for myself and be upset with myself if I don't meet them. I think this is one result of my FOO. I was raised in such chaos, criminality and abuse that I invented my own idea of "normal." It has an eerie similarity to "perfect." .

So I do need to look at my PTSD in context of this relationship. As I mentioned it was in remission for many years, during my longterm relationship. He was mr. Easy Going and never did anything that scared me. Then a series of traumas triggered me and that relationship ended for various reasons. I was still very fragile when I met my ex.

Your metaphor is a good one. I cannot clean up my side of the street if it is on fire. Or the way I think of it, if I am inviting him over to fire-bomb it.

The funny thing of course is I am looking at this at me leaving even though he broke up with me. I just know he is eventually going to want to recycle, and I need to truly detach. I need to find that sense of safety.

Letting go is filling me with all sorts of strong emotions, grief, loss, anger, hurt. At the same time I already do feel much safer.

One thing I need to work on is feeling it is okay for me to determine that certain behaviors are not safe or healthy for me. That includes dealing with a partner who rages.

[Grey Kitty]

One thing I need to work on is feeling it is okay for me to determine that certain behaviors are not safe or healthy for me. That includes dealing with a partner who rages.

Bingo.

I'm sure you hope to someday be able to be around somebody who is angry (or even raging) and not be triggered, and respond sensibly in that situation. There are other people who can.

The only path you have to getting there *someday* starts with accepting that you aren't there today.

Your metaphor is a good one. I cannot clean up my side of the street if it is on fire. Or the way I think of it, if I am inviting him over to fire-bomb it. ... .I need to find that sense of safety.

I think that trusting and believing yourself when you say that your fire-bombing ex is uninvited is a huge step toward safety for you.

[Notwendy]

HW don't beat yourself up for deciding the relationship isn't for you. The issues, dynamics, considerations in all relationships vary and are specific to each person. One person's best decision may be completely wrong for someone else.

We can only do the best with what we know. I didn't know much about BPD and if I had, I know I would have handled issues with my parents better. I wish I did not have to keep a distance from them at one point, but being around them was so stressful to me that I felt my well being was threatened. I have better skills  now, but I didn't then.

My reasons for keeping a distance were similar to yours. And, since it was not a romantic relationship, there was not that to break up. One doesn't break up with parents, but some people have to go NC for their sanity. I had to go LC. My reasons were this:

The way they were treating me was affecting me too much and I had to protect myself

I was easily triggered and emotionally upset in the dramatic relationship with them which was emotionally abusive on my mothers' part. My boundary setting skills were not developed.

As a mother, I felt that I would not be in a good position to take care of my kids, and I wanted them to have an emotionally stable mother.

One of the battle grounds between me and my parents was that my mother wanted to bypass me and get to the kids. They were getting older and she was enlisting them as caretaker. When it comes to my kids, I do have strong boundaries and had to put up barriers to protect them.

Might someone else have handled this in a different way? Maybe, but I had to do the best I could with what I had.

FOG? You betcha. FOG and regrets, but I am grateful that I did take the steps to not interact in a dysfunctional way. No decision in a relationship is probably all good or all bad, and while there are things I wish I did differently, I am glad for the emotional work I have done. My father is deceased. I miss him, and wish I had seen more of him. But I couldn't. He was angry and easily triggered and this was more than I could deal with at the time. But sometimes, I think, he would also have been proud of me for working to stop this drama and dysfunction that dominated our family relationships.

[HurtinNW]

As a mother, I felt that I would not be in a good position to take care of my kids, and I wanted them to have an emotionally stable mother.

One of the battle grounds between me and my parents was that my mother wanted to bypass me and get to the kids. They were getting older and she was enlisting them as caretaker. When it comes to my kids, I do have strong boundaries and had to put up barriers to protect them.

Not Wendy, you just helped me realize something. Several years before she died, my mother did one of her disowning and painting me black episodes. She had done this to me many times before. Only this time I decided I was done. She was demanding to see my kids in unsupervised visits while refusing to speak to me. I could see she was trying to indoctrinate my kids into the family sickness. She was trying to triangulate them against me. I wasn't about to let her see them unsupervised.

Like you I have boundaries when it comes to my kids and I refused to engage anymore with her or my enabling siblings. I weathered the storms of angry letters, screaming phone calls, and being guilt-tripped by my siblings about how "mean" I was to our mother for not agreeing to let her see my kids while she was disowning me. To this day my siblings blame me for my mother's subsequent death. They say I broke her heart because I wouldn't let her have "her" grandkids, as well as telling the truth about their sex offender father.

I was firm in my decision and have never regretted it. I broke the cycle, and protected my kids from my abusive family. I still grieve my family very much, and feel tremendous sorrow, hurt and sadness about all of them. But I have never regretted cutting off contact.

Likewise, I am making this decision because I feel a new clarity that this relationship is not healthy for my kids. I can take accountability for my role in it, but when push comes to shove I am simply not going to let my kids get hurt. I need to be a good mother to them and this relationship is not helping me do so.

Grey Kitty, I am little curious about your comment that some people can deal with rage without being triggered. I totally agree that is true. But what about when kids are involved? I think I am struggling with wanting to make a universal statement inside myself that when kids are involved the decision to deal with rage is not just about the adults.

Thank you for writing this: "I think that trusting and believing yourself when you say that your fire-bombing ex is uninvited is a huge step toward safety for you."

I really appreciate the support I am getting here!

[Grey Kitty]

Grey Kitty, I am little curious about your comment that some people can deal with rage without being triggered. I totally agree that is true. But what about when kids are involved? I think I am struggling with wanting to make a universal statement inside myself that when kids are involved the decision to deal with rage is not just about the adults.

If you encounter a raging person, you have two issues to address:

1. Dealing with your own triggered reaction(s) ... .panic / anxiety / fear / shutting down / whatever ... .I don't know what your actual emotional reaction is.

2. What should you do about the situation of a person raging (at you or at others in your presence)

In your case, being triggered makes it very hard for you to take reasonable and appropriate actions in the face of it.

I'm not triggered by anger or raging like you are. That means I've just got the situation to deal with, and need to choose appropriate actions... .without the added difficulty of being triggered while I do it.

Yes, actions are appropriate. Removing your kids from the situation is not just the right thing, but strikes me as your obligation as a parent.

If I was the target of that kind of rage, even without children to protect, I'm pretty sure I'd remove myself anyways. Even if it isn't triggering, it is still damaging to hear it. I believe it is harmful to the person expressing the rage as well. I think I would recommend the same action for either you or me in the same situation with somebody raging at either of us. I know that it would be far easier for me to stay calm enough to do it gracefully than it would for you.


That said, there have been times where somebody close to me (or myself!) was expressing anger, and I was able to stay in that situation, and I'm glad I did. This would probably be a lot harder for you than it was for me, and right now, I suspect you would be wisest not to even try... .and get out to safety for sure should you find yourself feeling triggered.


This is pretty much what I was trying to say before... .I hope more clear this time 'round and with a bit more detail.

[HurtinNW]

Hi Grey Kitty!

I've been mulling over what you said. For me this is one of the more confusing aspects of this board.

It is very true I get triggered by rages. My response is usually panic and fear. I get flooded. It feels awful—like I want to run, to hide. My therapist says basically my body thinks I am going to die.

However, even if I wasn't triggered I am not sure that we can always control or choose appropriate actions when someone rages out of control. A two year old who is having a temper tantrum you can gently pick up and take to their room. A fifty-six year old man you cannot.

My ex has an explosive temper. I often didn't know when he would rage. There were many times he raged at me in the car. He raged at me on trips we took together. He raged at me when we were in a hotel room out of town, late at night. They were not situations I predicted, and they were not situations I could just exit. I remember once him raging at me in a hotel room out of town. I got horribly triggered, and insisted he drive me home. I spent hours in a car listening to him rage at me while I cried and was so triggered I got sick to my stomach.

I think what people here would suggest is not putting yourself in a spot where you are trapped with someone who rages. But when you don't know when the rage will occur, then that is not possible, unless you reduce your relationship to... well, nothing.

You wrote: "That said, there have been times where somebody close to me (or myself!) was expressing anger, and I was able to stay in that situation, and I'm glad I did. This would probably be a lot harder for you than it was for me, and right now, I suspect you would be wisest not to even try... .and get out to safety for sure should you find yourself feeling triggered."

I get that. I think there are times we can sit with someone and let their anger come out. I'm not opposed to people expressing anger. I do think there is a difference between an expression of anger ("I am so mad right now!" and an abusive rage ("You b-word! You are a worthless piece of **!" especially when it crosses into physical and menacing behavior.

One thing I see on these boards that concerns me is people perhaps inadvertently enabling the abuse by trying to work through it. My experience with my ex was the more he raged the more he normalized the rage. At this point he is accustomed to reacting with rage and did it more and more easily. Expressing anger is not cathartic for someone with BPD/NPD traits. It becomes habitual. I am sure he thinks his last rage and break up was completely okay, even nicer than previous rages, because this time he he was *less* abusive.

I think we may also have gender differences at work here. I am a small woman. I think sometimes men have an easier time handling rage in other men because they can fight back. As a woman I can and have been hurt physically by men. It comes with a different sense of vulnerability.