Update on the story of us

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So last December BPDm was ordered no contact. She was not to contact SD for 120 days, or until such time as an evaluation  could be done to access whether the no contact was appropriate ( i.e. Mom asked for a second bite of the Apple)

We had the evaluation and BPDm is holding it up with her refusal to pay a $200 fee to the evaluator. We are not pursuing any expedition as nothing can move forward until she does.

A week ago I found out that mom had given another child at SD's school some Easter candy, toys and small items and a note to pass on to SD. SD says she was asked to lie about where the items came from, and that the note was thrown away. This isn't the first time "messages" have been passed along to SD from the other child as mom is friends with the child's mother, but today I found out that there have been several  written notes and items being sent to SD in this way, of which we have no idea the nature. SD is REALLY  good at keeping moms secrets.

I guess I should have known, SD had been making some good progress then seemed have a serious set back without explanation. She became more hostile, destructive and disobedient.

Her teacher has also been experiencing this same thing at school. Now it all seems to be making sense.

Other than just telling the therapist, and attorney, how can we enforce the no contact order?

We can't prove she sent anything, and moms friend certainly isn't going to side with us or help.

SD was very clear she was instructed to throw the notes in the garbage at school for her(moms) protection.

This was supposed to be SD reprieve from this stress, now I find out she really only got like three weeks.

[bravhart1]

So last December BPDm was ordered no contact. She was not to contact SD for 120 days, or until such time as an evaluation  could be done to access whether the no contact was appropriate ( i.e. Mom asked for a second bite of the Apple)

We had the evaluation and BPDm is holding it up with her refusal to pay a $200 fee to the evaluator. We are not pursuing any expedition as nothing can move forward until she does.

A week ago I found out that mom had given another child at SD's school some Easter candy, toys and small items and a note to pass on to SD. SD says she was asked to lie about where the items came from, and that the note was thrown away. This isn't the first time "messages" have been passed along to SD from the other child as mom is friends with the child's mother, but today I found out that there have been several  written notes and items being sent to SD in this way, of which we have no idea the nature. SD is REALLY  good at keeping moms secrets.

I guess I should have known, SD had been making some good progress then seemed have a serious set back without explanation. She became more hostile, destructive and disobedient.

Her teacher has also been experiencing this same thing at school. Now it all seems to be making sense.

Other than just telling the therapist, and attorney, how can we enforce the no contact order?

We can't prove she sent anything, and moms friend certainly isn't going to side with us or help.

SD was very clear she was instructed to throw the notes in the garbage at school for her(moms) protection.

This was supposed to be SD reprieve from this stress, now I find out she really only got like three weeks.

[Turkish]

Given the lack of proof, do you think SD is tellling the truth about these notes?

[bravhart1]

Yes, the daycare provider saw her with the candy and toys and saw her reading the note. She saw SD was upset after reading it but did not see SD discard it. We were waiting to bring it up with SD  and the therapist next week, but it all came out today.

SD actually slipped and said notes ( plural) today when we pushed her to tell the truth about the toys and such we saw in her room that were obviously new. She said there were at least four or five notes since the no contact. The content isn't clear.

[Turkish]

My Wolfish instinct would be for H to contact said friend to inform her that she was an accesorry to violating a court order, but that seems like escalating drama. It's good that the day care worker trusts you enough to volunteer info. Not sure how documenting it, by journal, will help, but I imagine you're doing that anyway.

[Nope]

Even just one of those notes and a picture of the toys and candy should be enough to ask the court to extend the No Contact. If you can prove it happened once then you can say it happened multiple times and be believed. All the day care provider needs to do is put a hold on trash being taken out when she sees kiddo with a note. This shouldn't be too hard to ask for since there is a court order in place.

[Thunderstruck]

My Wolfish instinct would be for H to contact said friend to inform her that she was an accesorry to violating a court order, but that seems like escalating drama. It's good that the day care worker trusts you enough to volunteer info. Not sure how documenting it, by journal, will help, but I imagine you're doing that anyway.

I would even go as far as to send this parent the court order. But I'm sure BPDmom is giving the parent a sob story. "Poor me, they won't even let me see or talk to my daughter."   So I don't know what good that would do anyway.

You could definitely give the court order to the school and they would follow it.

[GaGrl]

Does this rise to actionable 're: contempt? The child is getting no relief, and failing to address the violation could shorten the time in which she is able to get relief from this ongoing and subversive bombardment.

[sanemom]

I like the idea of keeping the trash when they see behavior changes.  You need proof.  This poor kid... .no relief whatsoever.

[bravhart1]

We had a meeting with the principal a month ago when SD was getting what we thought were "oral" messages from other child, from mom. The mother of the child being used was let's say less than helpful and became indignant on behalf of BPDm. She has no clue. She even wrote letters of support for BPDm for her evaluation and court papers. She stated in those papers that she leaves her children with BPDm ALL the time.

So I don't have much hope for her, if the court had taken away my babysitters child, I doubt I would keep using her, I know how bad things have to be to get to that point.

I don't know if it is considered contempt? But how much $$$$ do we have to bleed to get better than "no contact"? It makes me sick

Taking her to court to show she's doing this (according to L) would be about $5000, and there's no way to prove she did it. So to what end? All those involved believe it's happening, therapist, evaluator, etc.

Why does it seem she can lose?

Where are her consciquences? I thought with the no contact that at least mom was finally getting some consciquences, but she's found a way to skate those too.

Even on no contact she violates the order and gets away with it. All the while still putting poison in SD's head.(lie to your dad and bravhart about these letters, toys, candy, I'll never see you again, I'm going to jail ... .) these are the things SD has told us the notes say, but again we have no way of knowing if it true. SD vacillates between stories to protect mom and we don't try to pin her down as she has been through enough.

I'm just mad. We saw some improvements and now she's more tangled up inside than before.

[Nope]

What happens after the 120 days? Can you at least go back to court to get it extended based on this?

I know it's horribly unfair that, as ForeverDad says, the parent behaving well seldom gets credit and the parent behaving poorly seldom gets consequences. But part of the disorder is that no matter how badly they lose, they never really lose. Think about what the same consequences would feel like to a non. I mean, can you imagine how your DH would feel if his only method of communication with kiddo was to pass notes through one of her friends? Even if BPDm is removed completely from her child's life she will never accept any responsibility for what happened. It'll always be something that was "done to" her that she didn't deserve. And, honestly, if she has no audience, she probably won't sit and cry about it for very long. So the idea of consequences are completely lost on her no matter what happens anyway.

Just keep giving what you give and doing what you do. 

[Panda39]

Can you have SD and the "friend" separated at school?  I know there is nothing to stop mom from using another child as her messenger but might be worth a try.


Panda39

[david]

I would try to get the next note. Also see if daycare will write something about the other incidents.

Perhaps a letter from your atty to the parent would stop it if legal consequences for that parent are in the letter.

[bravhart1]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

The saga continues, we got the evaluation back today. ( sorry thunderstruck) and it looks like she's going to be in supervised visits for at least the next year.

He also came right out and said she is borderline and that she is not "getting it" as far as owning her mistakes and blaming everyone as though she is the victim but she is really the perpetrator.

He nailed her right between the eyes.

I guess when we go to court for the evaluation to be made an order we will get a chance to address her breaking the no contact, and inform the judge of these instances.

She will only get an hour of supervised a week to start, and that probably won't begin for at least three more months.

I can't really think of any thing else they could do to improve this. But we will get some clause about if she breaks the no contact outside of supervised visits she will lose more time.

It's never going to be over. :'(

[Thunderstruck]

  Thanks for the shout out.

That's an excellent evaluation for you guys. 

Do you think these consequences are going to stop her from trying to find ways to break the court order? My guess is not.    Would your BPDmom react to fiscal "punishments" instead? I'm guessing she is going to skate the court order and just try to contact SD more and more until you finally have to take her back to court for contempt. It'll get easier for her to break the no contact and supervised visits only as SD gets older.

What does SD think about why her mom is not allowed to see her?

[ForeverDad]

Supervision better not be someone behind a window at a distance.  This is not a case to prevent physical abuse.  Mother's verbal influence would just continue if not closely monitored.

[livednlearned]

Once she gets supervised visits, maybe this behavior will subside?

[Nope]

That evaluation is great! Allow yourself to be happy that at least the court will now have to view BPDm from the way the professionals have seen her and not as your equal in parenting. Until you get this kind of stuff established the courts tend to be overly fair to mothers complaining of persecution.

Also, it is possible that since she'll have supervised contact that she'll stop with the notes. But I would still bring it up with the court at the first opportunity. I agree that there needs to be consequences for any interaction outside of the supervised visits. Also, make sure the court addresses who is supposed to pay the supervisor. You need to be careful with that because if it's unstated then you can be in contempt for not paying and ensuring the visits can take place.

[david]

Just a thought, courts don't like to totally eliminate a parent even if BPDm is in contempt for contacting the child through a proxy. I think the notes are a bigger deal since SD was told to get rid of them and complied.

Perhaps a solution would be that such "gifts" need to be cleared through someone trusted by the courts. She has been diagnosed with borderline so her therapist in conjunction with you and your spouse can be involved in some manner.

This way you will not appear to be keeping BPDm from any contact but with appropriate contact that you, your spouse, and the courts would find reasonable. Bpdm must show the courts she is making attempts at getting better and this would put her on notice. I realize it may not work but it would be more "evidence" for the courts in the future. You can also put a consequence for further transgressions.

[david]

Also, if the court rules in your favor you can take that to the school. They are obligated to follow court orders.My ex tried to keep me from picking our boys up at school. She actually told the school I was not permitted without her permission. I gave the school a copy of our order and that ended that game.

[livednlearned]

Perhaps a solution would be that such "gifts" need to be cleared through someone trusted by the courts. She has been diagnosed with borderline so her therapist in conjunction with you and your spouse can be involved in some manner.

This is the kind of solution that courts seem to lap up.

Here is the problem. Here's why it is a problem. Here is how we would like to solve it.

Once I figured that one out, all of my solutions drove what happened in court (not always on my preferred timeline, and often at my expense, but hey).

[sanemom]

Let's hope the judge will address this situation with strong boundaries and containing her as much as possible!

And the supervisor definitely needs to know that there is something going on VERBALLY that needs to be watched.

[bravhart1]

I really like the idea of having the "notes" and stuff cleared through the therapist. That is def something we could ask judge for and use it to "out" her to judge in the process. This is why I love this site, you guys are very helpful!

Evaluation states the supervisor should be a professional with knowledge of borderlines and must take notes during the session, so she will def be verbally monitored. Also those notes and such given to the parent coordinator (who can take away time or increase it based on her appropriateness) we have to hash out who pays, we aren't in favor of having to pay for her supervisor, we already pay for therapist weekly, and all daycare, and get no child support.

Don't see why I should have to pay for her supervision too, she's not our child ( mom, not the actual child )

I get this is a big win, I wish I wasn't too haggard, and exhausted to relish the reprieve.

Need some relief from the stress, this has been a hard unforgiving road.

[david]

Make sure the courts know you are paying for the therapist weekly, all daycare, and no child support. The least mom could do is pay for her own supervisor. She needs to take responsibility for herself and her getting better.

Make sure that you and the court agree with who the supervisor is. Finding one that is good ( most important ) and also liked by the courts ( secondary ) would be very helpful for the future.

[livednlearned]

I agree -- she should at least pay for her own supervisor. That way, she doesn't do things like not show at the last minute, leaving you with a bill and no need for the supervisor.

[Nope]

Be aware that courts often try to make the party that benefits most pay. So it's important to make sure the court understands that this supervisor is to BPDm's benefit as it makes contact with her child possible and even has the power to reward good behavior with more time.

She may try to paint it as benefitting you because you are the ones who think it's even necessary. We ran into this when it came time to figure out who needed to pay the HUGE guardian ad litem bill after DH was given custody. We argued that it was BPDm's dangerous actions that forced more GAL involvement to get an emergency order so BPDm should have to pay the fees associated with the GAL's work on that order. The magistrate ended up making DH pay because he "clearly benefitted from it".

I know you're exhausted. I've been there. Wish I could say it gets easier and it does in some ways but then it just gets harder in others. Hang in there.

[livednlearned]

Nope makes a good point.

If you do get stuck with the bill paying, then try to get a consequence. For example, bravhart's family pays for supervisor. If biomom fails to notify the supervisor in a timely manner that she will not attend the supervised visitation, she is solely responsible for the bill."

Or whatever makes sense.

You don't want to be put in a position where she is not responsible when/if she does not show up, because that will happen.

[ForeverDad]

From my magistrate's decision after two full days in court with lawyers, parents and Guardian ad Litem (GAL).  In the 11 page decision the magistrate used the words disparaged or disparagement at least 6 times when referring to Mother's actions toward Father.  Clearly, the court was not pleased with Mother's actions.  Yet... .

... .Father offered no financial or other information to allow the Court to determine what amount, if any, Mother should pay in child support.  Therefore, Mother shall not be ordered to pay child support at this time... .

DECISION... .

GAL is released from this case... .Father shall pay his share of the GAL fee.  Based upon the last worksheet available, Mother's responsibility for any part of the GAL fee is waived... .The GAL shall then bill Father for the balance owed.

Father shall pay the outstanding court costs of this proceeding... .

Note that on the one hand the court wouldn't order child support (my motion as Father for majority time was successful) without more information but on the other hand it used prior financial data from years before as basis to waive Mother's GAL fee.

Separately they could be justified.  But together they show a unwritten deference to the female gender — or the loser.  I'm sure you the reader knows which is the more likely reality.

[david]

If the courts decide you have to pay than at minimum mom should pay if she doesn't show up, etc.

[livednlearned]

If the courts decide you have to pay than at minimum mom should pay if she doesn't show up, etc.

Even more than that, supervision is suspended until she has paid.

Close all the loopholes!