Intimacy (sexual and non sexual) and the dynamic with my stepson

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Switch lenses, this is how two mentally ill people relate to each other. 

Yes it is, but you are married to a woman who is acting sexual with her son and not with you. And all three of you are living in a house with no doors or reasonable boundaries between your intimate lives.

I think it is great to look at the influence of your FOO as the lack of boundaries there may have set you up to accept a lack of boundaries now.

If you want boundaries, they start with you. But they are not boundaries that you enforce on someone else. Boundaries are internal. They are a reflection of our own values. A boundary is the part that makes you think eeeew at what your wife is doing with her son and how you respond to this with your own behavior.

[Notwendy]

Switch lenses, this is how two mentally ill people relate to each other. 

Yes it is, but you are married to a woman who is acting sexual with her son and not with you. And all three of you are living in a house with no doors or reasonable boundaries between your intimate lives.

I think it is great to look at the influence of your FOO as the lack of boundaries there may have set you up to accept a lack of boundaries now.

If you want boundaries, they start with you. But they are not boundaries that you enforce on someone else. Boundaries are internal. They are a reflection of our own values. A boundary is the part that makes you think eeeew at what your wife is doing with her son and how you respond to this with your own behavior.

[byfaith]

just some other things popping into my head... .all of these things she does there has never been a tone of sensuality. If that makes sense. OK for instance she has this thing where she can remove her bra underneath her shirt without lifting her shirt up. She will do this right in front of he son not on a regular basis but she does it. She just thinks its funny. She will sometimes say hey remember Johnny when I used to come home from work and do this and then flick the bra off the end of my foot across the room?

I also think it is inappropriate for a woman to walk around in certain company without a bra on. When her son is around it's hit or miss. If her nips are sticking up I hint to go put a bra on.

When I have talked to her about the inappropriate touching ( she even at times will goose his butt cheek and make a noise) Her defense is that her son does not get touched enough. I don't say anything about her hugging, hugging is normal. But I have seen abnormal hugs. It's like a lover grabbing someone around the neck and gazing lovingly into their eyes.

I am in no way justifying what she does... .but she and her son have been together all of his life. I think the fact that she wanted to be protected as a child and never got that she goes overboard with him. He has been a constant in her life ( I know she wishes he had his own life with someone to love) but she tries in a way to make up for that and crosses boundaries and maybe does not realize it? Maybe she does I don't know? When he had his stroke it made her feel even more emotionally tied to him and then the SZ hit and she sees him in a lonely state of mind and it just destroys her

Again not justifying it just trying to explain in some way where it all stems from   

[byfaith]

there has never been a tone of sensuality (in her voice) I don't think my wife has ever thought about having sex with her son? I would hope not. She has spoken to me of how disgusted she felt when there were incest overtones from her brothers and dad when she was young and even into her 40's with her brothers.

[Notwendy]

I don't know if she had thoughts of sex with your son, but violating his sexual boundaries with inappropriate touch and showing him her bra is sexually arousing and so it is violating. Considering he is a sexually mature male with little hope of having a sexual partner, this might be very arousing to him.

If you want a frame of reference, I have teens. I do not walk around without a bra in front of a teen age boy ( mine or a friend) . If I am in my pj's I will put a light jacket on. For the record what I mean by Pj's is flannel sweat pants as well. Basically, nothing shows as if I was fully dressed.

Also a male teen doesn't want to see mom's intimate garments.

Why do I keep this boundary? Do I care if someone sees me without a bra? Not as much as I care about my kids' boundaries. At their age, they are developing boundaries, and I want them to have strong ones. I am role modeling boundaries for them. That is much more important at this point. I am also role modeling that only my H is going to see these things -as should be in a marriage. So, for me this means no skimpy clothing in public- not in front of my kids or anyone else.

And I respect theirs. There comes a point where an adolescent.  wants to locks their door, cover up in front of a parent, not snuggle with mom anymore. Just as my body is off limits to others besides my H, their bodies are off limits to others as well. I don't violate that.

One can also violate with speech, TMI, asking too personal questions, inappropriate talk about sex. The kids might want to hear sexual topics in the locker room with peers but not from a mom ( beyond that facts of life talk- I mean personal topics). Ironic that your wife is concerned that Johnny might hear the F word, yet shows him her bra. He's a grown man. And you say it isn't sensual. If your wife waved her bra in front of you, would you be off to the races?

It isn't just what is seen- it is all about boundaries and there are ways to violate them besides a sexual act.

I am sorry if this comes on too strong, but this behavior is not appropriate. I don't know how effective it is to be critical to your wife, but you can set a boundary- such as I will watch TV with you in the den if you put a bra ( or some other cover on) as it makes me uncomfortable. If she chastises you, then you don't watch TV with her.

[byfaith]

All of this input is helping me immensely to process this. This has disturbed me on so many levels for too long.

This is the first time I have discussed this with anyone with clear feedback. I had a T that I discussed this with and I did not get the direction that I have gained from just this thread.

BF

[byfaith]

FF,

that extra door... .my D23 has her room downstairs and she comes up and down the steps into the living room and kitchen area and also the bathroom, so I can't put the door up. I mean I can but I am not willing to go at this thing from that angle putting up a second door. I am going to work on compromises on locking our bedroom door, keeping him from walking into our room at will at certain times.

tell me if I am wrong on this, but if push came to shove there is yet another room I could make my own room. I don't want it to come to that though

History: the downstairs used to be an open area den with a full bath off of it and a large storage closet. Nice stonework where I had a wood burning stove sitting. This area has a sink and a place for a medium size frig, nice cabinets and sink. A little over a year ago I built a  wall to close it off with a door, this became johnny's room. Nice area. the initial thought was after x time at night he quits coming up and down the stairs and stays down in his room. That did not work.

My wife will be back home tomorrow evening. I am going to try to come up with an "action" plan to discuss certain topics with my wife. I will share them here and see what kind of feedback I get.

We have had nice conversations on the phone this week and some nice texting back and forth, so that is good. she told me she is looking forward to getting back and going to the MC. She has been out of state , her mother was in the hospital.   

[formflier]

 

I'm missing something on the door.  Is it a door to a hallway to your bedroom, or would it be a door to common areas.

Likely I missed something. 

I thought there was a stairway to a hallway that led to your bedroom and that you could gain an extra 10-15 feet of "protection" to get to your bedroom door.

The last answer I got makes it seem like it is a door to a common area,


FF

[formflier]

 

My views on covering up are very close to notwendy. 

What you wife is doing is not good.

What I see is a lack of empathy about how the son might feel.  She is likely thinking it is loving and "funny" without any understanding of what it is like to be male.

Male see sexy stuff, male get aroused, ug ug, caveman style.  While that may sound harsh, in my experience it is very true. 

When I see a bra, my first thought is not, "ohhh, that's a nice bra, "  I immediately start thinking about the boobs that were in the bra,   Yes, I've trained myself to "not take a second look" or distract myself and not focus on it.

Now, separate issue on how to properly address it.  I think you should leave it alone for a bit, focus on communication and other stuff first.

FF

[daughterandmom]

Hi byfaith.  I like Harri do not normally post on this board but I do read here.  I felt I needed to respond because my mother treated me very much the same way as you are describing here. I am sure, that like your wife, her intention was to be loving and show affection. But the lack of boundaries, physical and emotional, really screwed with my head and I am dealing with all that now, much later in life. I have learned here and with my therapist that this is emotional incest, covert incest, covert sexual abuse.

Also, I have raised teen boys. I never let them see me take my bra off, even the way you describe. I would never walk around the house without a bra on, or in a nighty or whatever around them. And I would never let them come in my room and talk to me by the bed right after sex.

Also I hugged them and touched them a lot- but never on the butt or stomach or thigh, or any way that feels intimate.

It was always more hugs with pats on the back, hair ruffling, etc.

[HurtinNW]

I'm so glad you are examining this. As I mentioned earlier my mentally ill mother did this with her sons and it totally messed them up. Me, too. I remember my mother commenting to me about the size of my brother's genitalia. She would often have baths and want her sons to come talk to her while she was in the tub. Like your wife she would use a warm, sexy tone of voice with them, and touched their legs and butts. I feel sick even remembering this. It was so wrong.

Please also bear in mind that your stepson is a victim in this situation. He may be a grown man, but he has a severe mental illness and cannot advocate for himself. I am positive that her covert incest with him is connected to him walking in your room right after you've had sexual contact, and other confused, intrusive actions on his part. He is probably responding to signals he doesn't understand.

I am a mom of teenage boys and like the others it is very important that moms have healthy boundaries. I only give sideways hugs, for instance, and absolutely never let them see me inappropriately dressed or undressed. You can probably tell from my earlier post and this one that this kind of abuse strikes a nerve with me. It doesn't matter if your wife admits or knows what she is doing, the point is that she is doing it. Your stepson may need to be protected from his mother. I don't know what sort of options you have there, or if they can be forced.

[byfaith]

I remember my mother commenting to me about the size of my brother's genitalia. She would often have baths and want her sons to come talk to her while she was in the tub. Like your wife she would use a warm, sexy tone of voice with them, and touched their legs and butts. I feel sick even remembering this. It was so wrong.

Hi HurtinNW

There are things that occur that bother me.  I do need to say that my wife has never talked about his genitalia in that way. I will explain in a minute. She does not use a sexy tone of voice with him. I understand that nobody here knows my wife from Adam but I want to draw the clearest picture that I can of how my wife relates to her son.

He suffers with Paranoid SZ. He believes he is being watched 24/7 and that there cameras in the house. He will not take a shower but maybe twice a week and it does it almost in complete darkness with just a nightlight on in the bathroom. He believes "they" see him naked while he is showering. His mom tries to encourage him to take a shower and he will say things like they can see my pecker. She will just say well just let them see it then, there is nothing you can do about it. She does not say it in gross way way.

It just kind of hit me... .some people mainly men? Have no problems walking around the house in their underwear (tight whities) in front of whoever lives in the house. That is kind of like the attitude AT TIMES my wife has.  I remember as a kid and teenager I would have been mortified if my mom saw me in my underwear. Never let my kids see me in my underwear (3 girls and a boy)

I remember going out drink with my friends when I was about 17 and I came home and was down in the laundry room heaving my guts out in the utility sink. It woke my mom up so she came down and I am in my underwear. I am puking my guts out and I say something to her "don't look Im in my underwear" She got so pissed that I was worried about that. Kind of a funny story. That's how guarded I was about it, I don't know why.

don't know how I got off on all that. I have recieved a lot of good feedback including yours so thank you... I can understand why this kind of thing would strike a nerve with you

[Notwendy]

I think it is difficult for parents of mentally disabled children to transition from raising a child to raising a mature child. Normally, the child helps with some of this. Adolescents start locking their doors, spending more time with peers. They pull away from the parent, and the parent doesn't need to push.

Yes, there was a time when my little boy ran around with no clothes on and could not care less. If he walked in on me dressing, he didn't notice. Then, he is locking his door, covering up, and not daring to walk in on me dressing. So this was a coordination between the two of us- deciding it is time for different boundaries- and respecting them.

So, a man with the mind of a child may still behave like a child, even in an adult body. He may not give out the same messages, or develop  age appropriate boundaries. Add to this a disordered parent who may have grown up in an FOO with poor boundaries and who does not respect boundaries,( such as , if their child is upset about being in their underwear, I would bring them some sweat pants. ), and this becomes a disordered relationship all around.

It's about respecting the child's boundaries.  Parents probably could care less if they see the child they raised ( and diapered, and dressed at some point) in their underwear  It is the signal that he is developing appropriate boundaries that cues me to respect his need for privacy. BPD parents don't see this. Whatever they feel is fact to them, and so they would assume the child is wrong. In addition, the child pulling away, expressing his own ideas could trigger abandonment fears. A mentally disabled child may also express boundaries- but since the son is schizophrenic, his way is to say "aliens will see me". The way he expresses the boundary is distorted.

[Notwendy]

While all three of you have reasons to not have the most healthy boundaries, you are the one who is not disordered and so it is up to you to take the lead in establishing and maintaining appropriate boundaries in your home. This is also essential to the well being of your step son. He has the complication of being disordered and having a disordered parent. You could have a positive impact on him.

This includes privacy, (doors), language and dress. You can't control them, but you can take action for yourself ( putting in locks, doors, not watching TV with your wife if she isn't appropriately covered, and getting good boundaries for yourself.

The Passionate Marriage book has a lot to say about the relationship between boundaries, enmeshment, and sex. Note that it isn't directed at people with disorders, but it does address issues such as co-dependency. The term they use is differentiation.

Both you and your wife are bringing weak boundaries into the bedroom. Perhaps this is affecting her sexual response? ( and yours )- independently of the issues with her son.