Tattoos - Advice needed (Again)

[Rockieplace]

Sorry to be so needy but I really need advice about how to respond to the latest challenge regarding my BPDD33.  I have posted here previously that, prior to going away for a couple of weeks, I received some quite encouraging responses from my d regarding finances and managed, with LBJ's help, to deliver our boundary with what seemed to be very positive results. 

Having returned from holiday today, I have learned from my other d that my BPDD has had a massive amount of new tattooing done in our absence.  (She already had a lot).  Apologies to any on here who don't mind tattoos.  I know that they seem to be quite popular.  I personally hate them and my BPDD knows that I do too.  My other d also dislikes them.  The new ones which she has posted pictures of on Facebook seemingly, are quite sinister in their content, very visible, and also highly coloured  which I have been told makes them impossible to have removed.  They will also have cost her a lot of money!  She has told us recently how terribly worried she is about money and not having enough for rent etc now that she has lost her job.  I am in despair about this latest reckless waste of her money but know that I am completely powerless to do anything about it and must just accept that it is what it is.

What I really don't know though is how I can possibly react when I see her (possibly tomorrow) and what on earth I can say without being totally dishonest.  I am not good at hiding my feelings at the best of times and will, as I've said before, never make a poker player!  I'm also terrified of provoking some bad reaction from her and don't want to make things worse!

I almost feel as if I can't go to see her at all.

Any help and advice would be very much appreciated!  :'( :'(

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

At best, you might refocus this back onto your daughter... .ie... .Yes, I see the new tattoos.  Are you happy with them?... .Yes, I see that... .does it hurt to get all that detail and color?... .What do I think of your new tattoos you ask?... .being that we both know I don't care for tattoos on anyone I wouldn't provide an objective opinion... .or ... .  What's most important is what you think of the new tattoos.

Our kids do all kinds of things we don't approve of... .we have to choose our battles and let the other stuff go.  She is an adult and it is her choice.

Is it worth damaging your relationship to voice your opinion about:

what you can't control

what her personal choices are not outside the "norm"

what's already been done

[Rockieplace]

You are absolutely right of course.  It is my prejudice re tattoos and I know it is not shared by everyone.  I will follow your advice (I will have to practise very hard in the mirror though beforehand).  One of my concerns is that my d will really regret them too as, before she entered this crisis, she expressed regret about the one tattoo she already had and talked about getting it removed. 

When she spiral downwards around 18 months ago after a series of tragedies in the family and the breakdown of a relationship (exacerbated by an addiction to prescription drugs) she started to get more and more tattoos, and very sinister tattoos too.  She then attempted suicide or, more accurately, started to seriously self-harm numerous times and was hospitalized and sectioned and, immediately upon discharge from section got even more tattoos. I notice, however, that she has had many of the tattoos on areas where she had scarring from the self-harming.  I therefore really feel that the tattoos are a form of self-harm. 

I actually think that tattooists should have to have a certificate of mental health before they are allowed to perform them!

What do you think about the money issue involved here?  I suppose, given our boundary, that area is none of our business?     (thank you LBJ again by the way!)

[Bright Day Mom]

Hi,

I agree to a certain degree with the previous reply in terms of discussing in terms of the appropriate questions, etc. Also w/your reply of practicing, that always helps too!

Your D is 33, no more baby.  In terms of the tatt being a form of self harm... .I disagree.  She probably has gotten the additional ink to cover the damage she did during her self-harming episode. I know a girl that did it for the exact reason.

I once read something "is it more important to be right or effective?"  I often use this many times a day w/my D.

Choose your battles and love your daughter.  Look beyond the ink

Good Luck

[Lollypop]

Hi rockieplace

Sorry to hear about your angst. If it's any consolation I don't like tattoos either but it's a generational thing. Youngsters think nothing of multiple piercings, tattoos or even cosmetic surgery. It seems to be very addictive.

As you've said its her body and her money, her consequences. I understand your reluctance to see her and how challenging it will be to provide a suitable reaction. I think you said she knows how you feel about them already so I guess she'll be ready for some sort of criticism.

My BPDs had one done at 18, small and on his chest near his heart. It looks very feminine and I know he regrets it. He said he's going to get another one done over it but I know he won't spend the money!

I know lbj has  made some really good suggestions. I guess it's best to try to be as natural as possible.

I'm wondering if it's possible to say something like "you know I'm just so old fashioned and I struggle with having something done so permanent but I really do appreciate that it's an art form... .I know there's tv programmes and you've got to be really still and patient, does it really hurt... .how do you know what to have done?... .

Good luck. Don't worry about being needy... .I'm the worst and actually stop myself from posting sometimes!

[lbjnltx]

On the money issue... .stick to your boundaries and any preset limits regarding what you will pay for. 

This is really good lollypop:

"you know I'm just so old fashioned and I struggle with having something done so permanent but I really do appreciate that it's an art form... .I know there's tv programmes and you've got to be really still and patient, does it really hurt... .how do you know what to have done?... .

lbj

[Rockieplace]

Thank you for this.  I've been crying about it all day.  I'm just so afraid I'll show my feelings and provoke a bad reaction, which is why I think I have to get more control of myself before I go to see my d.  

I know I have to accept that it is a 'fait accompli' in any case and it is absolutely pointless getting in a state about it.

Lollypop - that does sound good too and I know I am old-fashioned about them.  I'm 63 too ... .but my other daughter is only 31 and doesn't like them either so it seems to be just a personal taste thing. 

The ones she's had though while she has been in crisis are very extreme in subject matter/size/visibility etc which makes me suspicious that her motivation is more a symptom of her illness than anything and the fact that she is using money she doesn't have to get them done too is an added worry.

LBJ and Bright Day Mom - I agree with you too that it is far better to be effective than to be right.  I want so much to be effective but know that my daughter is so sensitive to everything and knows me well so won't be fooled by me however much I practice in the mirror.

I wonder if it might not be better if I texted her to let her know that I know beforehand in order to get it out of the way.

I was thinking of sending a text which goes something like:

Hi love,  just wanted to let you know that I have seen the pictures of your new tattoos that you posted on Facebook. (I am not on her Facebook but have friends who are).  You know that I am an old fogey where tattoos are concerned and am quite worried that you might regret them in the future so hope you won't mind if we don't 'go there' when we meet up later.  Just know I love you and forgive me on that account! "

What do all your lovely people think... .?  Or is it a coward's way out?

[Lollypop]

Hi rockieplace

We spent years and years wagging our finger at our BPDs, we just couldn't get him to behave like we thought he should; stuck in inertia, when he did make choices they were always the wrong ones. I now realise what impact this had  on him. He was perfectly aware of our disappointment and it made matters worse. We couldn't do anything right as our relationship slowly broke down. It got to the point that every interaction was painful on both sides.

We are working hard at improving communication. We told him "you know, we feel like a weight has been lifted from our shoulders as we realise we're not responsible for you". I show polite interest in his comings and goings, listen when he's got something to say, encourage him. I know I'm successfully detaching because I don't worry the same, he was my obsession! I make sure he sees that Im busy with other more important things in my life. The heat is off him as we "walk along together".

i hope my post doesn't come over as all preachy Rockieplace, I can really see you're scared of making things worse or your daughter reacting. I try to stick to "when in doubt do nothing" but I realise that in this case that isn't possible as your due to see her today. Is there any way you could say something to your daughter that's true and honest that you feel comfortable with and that's bigger and above the tattoo? about you understanding her need to express herself, creatively - not those words but do you get what I'm suggesting?

Personally, I would not mention Facebook as I know my BPDs used to accuse me of stalking - and it was true!

Good luck today. I'll be thinking of you.

[Rockieplace]

Hi Lollypop,  thank you for that and you are right.  I know that all of the above advice is good and valid - I am just having a hard time knowing how to put it into practice and 'pull it off' without causing more trouble.

I have managed (or thought I had) to stop trying to fix things for her and have felt the better for it.  I felt that my d and I were really communicating much more effectively because of the changes I was making to the way I responded.  We also felt like progress had been made before we went away re boundary setting etc and it felt so depressing yesterday to hear that she had done something so reckless and permanent directly after seeming to 'come to her senses' over finances. 

However, I know from all of my reading that this is often the way it goes with BPD.  I've just got to come to terms with it.   I'm going to read up on Radical Acceptance now to see if that will help.

I am also trying to ignore the little whisper in my head that my d did this out of a sort of revenge on us for giving her boundary re finances while saying all the right things at the time.  This is definitely her pattern of behaviour which we recognize.  I am trying to interpret it in the most benign way possible but I know her and have my doubts.  :'(

There is a Chinese proverb that springs to mind:

"If you decide to embark upon a campaign of revenge, dig two graves!"

I've decided to put off going to see my d today as I need to have more time to get into a wiser frame of mind.

It does so help to be able to share on here though!  

[Lollypop]

Hi Rockieplace

I find validation really hard and even listening skills but I keep on trying. The problem is there's little opportunity to practise. Patience, patience I tell myself.

I'm just throwing this in here. Whenever we have gone away our BPDs has handled it very badly. One time he relapsed after his longest drug free spell, after I called him from Croatia to see if he was ok. I'm wondering if this resonates with you too.

Have a great day, ohm ohm ohm !

[wendydarling]

Hi Rockieplace

I think that is a wise decision to delay seeing your daughter today, by acknowledging to yourself your not ready and giving yourself permission to take time out for you. 

Let us know how you get on.

ohm ... . 

WDx

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SAAT]

Hi Rockieplace,

I have experienced exactly the same situation with my BPD24D... She has acquired a large number of brightly coloured "artistic" tattoos that she cannot afford and she is well aware of my attitude towards them. I did and still do find them confronting although I can acknowledge the creative value in some of the designs. I found this blog particularly helpful:

www.cherigregory.com/love-daughter-hate-tattoos/

It helped me accept my daughter and I had different tastes ... .I worry much more about her behaviour now than her appearance...  one thing I did succeed with was convincing her to avoid getting any tattoo that could not be covered up during a job interview.

My daughter is a brilliant artist who now wants to use her designs as a tattoo artist! Not sure how I am going to cope with the challenges this entails if she can obtain an apprenticeship ... .

[obliv326]

Hi

It is certainly understandable that you would be distressed by undertaking something so expensive and extensive without any seeming regard. I know the feeling. I gave my BPD(x)gf money on a monthly basis to help with various expenses, i.e. Car repairs, etc. The next month, she had an unpaid traffic ticket and was worried about money. The car repairs had not been done, and the money was gone, and I got the "play dumb" routine when I asked about it. I get your frustration about the lack of forethought and disrespect shown to you.

I will mirror everyone else in that I believe you should try and show some interest if you feel the need to address them at all. I can tell you that I don't have BPD, and if you expressed the idea that my tattoos were sinister, I would not react at all in a positive way. I'm sure if you react like that they'll just use that as a way to split you black.

I certainly sympathize with the situation. Maybe a way to avoid that issue is to think about it as if she spent the money on some other frivolous purchase rather than the tattoos. That might help make it less of an emotional issue for you. I'm sure if you let emotions in then it won't be possible to really address anything

[Rockieplace]

Hi Oblig326!  Thank you.  It is helpful to get a slightly different perspective.   :)on't worry - I wouldn't dream of using the emotive language I used here.  I would be ':)ead Mum Walking' if I did!  My fear is that I would only need to raise my eyebrow slightly to get pounced upon.  As mentioned, I will never make a poker player and every emotion tends to show on my face.  That is what I am most concerned about. The problem is that the type of work my daughter has had done is going to restrict her options in life in the future in my opinion and just makes me sad for her.  I may be wrong but I'm still convinced that it is a symptom of her illness.

Thank you too SAAT.  I've registered with this blog which does put a different slant on the issue of tattooing.  To be honest, although I don't particularly like tattoos, I really haven't any objections to the personal expression that some of them demonstrate.  I just don't think the ones my BPDD have had done fall into this category.  BUT I've got to accept that it is what it is.  It saddens me greatly that she will struggle to get a job in the industry that she is qualified for with them.  She is not currently in the artistic industry and has lost her job.  I'm sure that the impulse to have them done was not a result of healthy self-expression.

I've  been walking, meditating, doing yoga all day and reading about Radical Acceptance all in preparation for being the best I can be when I next see my daughter.

I think I'll have to go and get injected with a ton of BOTOX in order to freeze my expressions.  I may have a chance then!      

[Lollypop]

Hi ROckiep

Now that made me laugh! You may look a tad too surprised!

I've been thinking of other helpful and safer suggestions!

but couldn't  get past the brown paper bag with eye slits idea... .It got me chuckling at the thought !


Good luck and let us know how it goes

[Bright Day Mom]

I personally wouldn't send the text, I know my BPDD reads far too into such communication and would become enraged (misinterpreting every syllable)! 

I think you are overthinking it too much and causing anxiety for yourself.  Remember the Serenity Prayer: "Grant serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can and wisdom to know the difference".  Try building a bridge and getting over it... .you want to work on your relationship and not let ink stand in the way.

Good luck.

[Rockieplace]

You are right BrightDayMom - I decided not to send the text and she would indeed have probably become enraged about some word or phrase in it.  Overthinking things is my specialized subject!

And Lollypop was right, just the mention of Facebook would probably have been inflammatory too. 

I'm getting there in my mind.  It's amazing what a difference a couple of days can make.  I know I can't change the situation, only the way I respond to it.

I'm seeing her tomorrow now - without a visit to the Botox clinic.  Eeeek.  

[lbjnltx]

It is obvious to me that your relationship with your daughter is your first priority.  As you walk up to meet her or sit and wait for her can you remind yourself of that?

Rather than seek out the newest skin art with your eyes... .seek out her eyes and focus there.  With all the work you have done on radical acceptance these past few days you will do fine I think.

lbj

[Rockieplace]

Thank you for your vote of confidence LBJ.  I think I was just in need of a little validation - ha ha. 

My daughter and I actually can and do get on really well at times and she can be charming, clever and good company. Unfortunately, I've learnt to distrust the good times slightly too as they can often change into the opposite very quickly without me really knowing why.

I feel calmer and stronger now though.  I'm grateful to have had these couple of days 'warning' to get more into wise mind.  As you say I so want to do the best by her and at the very least not make things worse.