MC today at 5

[formflier]

She seems to be back in a pissy mood.  Apparently she slept on the couch last night.

I'm walking up the stairs to get kids up and she exclaims.

"Wow, are you getting the kids up?"  Very sarcastic.

I simply said yes,

"Weeeeeellll, thaaankk you, "  again drawn out and sarcastic.

Hmm, I think that is an indication that she wants some space.

Well be interesting to see what she focuses on.  We had a two week break because counselor was out of town last week.

FF

[Notwendy]

Pw BPD have trouble dealing with their own bad feelings. They can project them onto others, but also use arguments, drama and raging as a relief valve.

If you are not being reactive to her digs, then there isn't a release for the steam. Now, if someone has always used a hammer ( digs, baits, sarcasm) and at first that hammer doesn't work, they are going to keep banging at it until- it works or it doesn't. You haven't taken the bait in a while, and you didn't here, so she's got some frustration and only the hammer to work with. I am speaking metaphorically now, the hammer being what she has to use to get rid of frustration. She needs to learn a new way, but the hammer is one that so far has worked for her, and if it continues to not work, then she may be able to learn something new. But if the hammer ( triggering ) works for her, she will not need to try something different.

Anger and drama has an effect on us, just like a drug can. During these states of arousal, the brain is flooded with neurotransmitters. So, people can use anger, rages to help themselves manage their bad feelings. If this is a pattern for the two of you and you are not engaging in it, she could be in a pissy mood.

[formflier]

 

Notwendy,

This is making sense.  I've tried to be very aware of "digs" since Saturday morning when she was texting "at" me about her frustrations and I didn't pick it up.

There were a few low grade things yesterday, but they could have also been reactions to a moment, vice a relief valve for built up pressure.

So, this morning.

1.  The nasty comment about getting kids up.

2.  I did a bunch of laundry yesterday, a bunch.  So, lots of folding.  She hates it that I involve everyone and keeps "undoing" it.  Yesterday I had a grumpy back day, spent a bunch of time in tub.  Kids would be shooed away from laundry, so it was still there this morning.  She gave some speech to kids about my "failure".  No reaction from me.

3.  She asked me to pray with her.  We knelt and she "prayed at me" for several minutes.  When it was over I kissed her hand and left.

check the next one to see if I did ok or not.

4.  She found a set of car keys yesterday that had been missing for a few days.  They weren't in "key bowl" and that is the vehicle she normally takes.  I use that car to get kids to bus, then it's warm for her.  She and couple kids are in walk in closet in the floor and I ask if she has the keys in her purse (I always ask before diving in there, it's scary in a woman's purse).  She says no and then makes a funny face and in sarcastic tone is asking if I "have to have them right now".  She starts to reach in a pocket on her sweater.  My response was "no" and I turned and walked away.

I heard the clang of the keys as she tossed them at me.  I used truck to take kids to bus stop and ignored keys.

5.  When she was leaving for work she asked me where the keys were by hollering across the house if I had them.  I simply said I didn't have them.  She followed up by asking if I picked them up after "I laid them on the floor for you".  My answer was "no"

6.  Big speech (via hollering across house) about caring for the dog so "she doesn't poop all over the place".  No response at all from me.  I kept working in laundry room.

So, my take is that she was working on some kind of blowup this morning.  On the one hand I could see me ignoring the keys as a bit PA (still struggling with understanding of passive aggressive) on the other hand.  It's a simple thing, if she wants me to warm up car and use it to take kids, she can hand over keys or simply direct me to where they are.  If it's going to be a "big thing", then I will skip it and use another vehicle.

Thoughts?


FF

[Notwendy]

Like any extinction burst- ignoring it doesn't reinforce it. Any response- positive or negative is a reinforcer because it gets attention. Attention is reinforcing. If her digs can roll off your back like water off a duck, then eventually she will get the message that they don't work.

When taking away reinforcer, one has to reinforce other good behaviors. Just like with any living being. If she does something nice or kind, give that attention.

Praying at you. On your other thread, I mentioned wolf in sheep's clothing. A dig/trigger/bait delivered in religious form is still that. However, since religion, and sharing that with her is a topic of high interest- it gets your attention. It can also be a set up, because if you react, she can act angelic    " I was praying" or start quoting Bible. Don't react to it, but see the whole picture. Continue to reinforce the prayer, religion you share, but be aware, and don't respond to the triggers or bait.

But stay focused that this is about you. Learning to calm yourself. Each time she digs, it is an opportunity for you to grow emotionally. And don't forget the idea of intermittent reinforcement if she escalates the digs. You may need to excuse yourself to get calm.

[formflier]

I normally text her a few random things after she leaves.  I considered not doing it today because of the pissyness, then figured the lack of texts would be "odder".  So, I figured I would send them and then ignore bait.



Me: hope you have a great day, I'm moving around a bit better than I did yesterday 7:35 AM

Me: hoping chiropractor can get some of this "unstuck" today 7:38 AM

Me: I have a guy wanting to buy the shingles in the attic! c list has been working out well to move stuff along 7:39 AM

ff wife: Glad to see you're feeling better (ff name) I've been a little concerned about the mountains of laundry laying around the living room floor and the house being a mess every day I was beginning to wonder if you might be a little depressed your mood seems to swing from low to High pretty quickly these days I'm glad we had a chance to pray together this morning (ff name) God is good and he love and protects his children 8:07 AM

Me: I actually feel worse but seem to be functioning better today 8:08 AM

Me: a bit hard to explain, 8:08 AM

Me: yeah, my mood is usually tied to body function, not always, but usually. 8:10 AM

ff wife: Praying for u 8:11 AM

ff wife: Praying it will become tied to Jesus Christ instead 8:15 AM

end of texts

As I review this, I think I did good staying businesslike, however it is likely that my responses may not have been helpful.  Looks like I kicked the bait around a bit if I didn't fully pick it up.

FF

[formflier]

 

Session went about as I expected.  There was a lot of focus on the "birthday party blowup".  My big mouth was and is a big problem.

There was also lots of questions about how my recollection of events and my wife's recollection are so different.  That is where the journaling issue came back up.  My wife said she saw no value in doing journaling and that "i would only use it against her".  The counselor didn't say who he believed, but given that our homework assignment now includes journaling, he is pressing to clean this up quickly and create accountability.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

So, do you feel MC is helping? Yet again, even though our MC is great, I don't think MC is helping one bit.

Why? Because BPDh doesn't really do the work, and he halfway sleeps through most sessions, literally. No form of therapy works if you are zoned out, or won't accept your part of the equation. I'm making effort, I'm willing to do my part, but I'm only half the equation.

I totally agree with what others have stated about MC being mostly a waste of time when someone hasn't really dealt with their BPD, or PD.

[Sunfl0wer]

It sounds like you are saying your wife is now resisting the process of this therapy?

[Notwendy]

My big mouth was and is a big problem.




When we started MC, I expected the T to hold my H's feet to the fire. IMHO, I he was contributing a lot of the problem. I was not happy to see that the MC turned the focus on me, my issues. What about his issues? It didn't seem fair.

I think it can feel like we are the Little Red Hen if we think we are expected to carry the load of fixing the relationship issues, by working on our stuff of we think they are not. What I learned along the way is that, whoever does the work gets valuable personal benefits that can help us in all our relationships. I have come to believe that, if we want change, it is us that has to do this work. Focusing on the other person- what they are doing or not, is not effective because we can't control them, only us.

I didn't think my MC was fair and questioned what she was doing. Now, I know she was very wise, even if I didn't know it at the time. However, I wanted change and was willing to do what she asked- her way. Why not? It was pretty clear that my way of trying to make the marriage better was not working.

I don't know what your MC has in mind, but if you look at results- your way got you what you have now. Are you willing to at least try his way and see how it turns out. You can't change your wife's decision, but if he says to journal- you do it ( Keep that journal private - she will get into it). If he says defer to her unless it is sinful - do it. If he wants you to do jumping jacks!- do it. You and your wife have both had your hands on the wheel and have driven your marriage to this point. Letting the MC take some of that- just to try- might give you different results.

[formflier]

 

Yeah, he explained a bit of this theory in person and combining that with the homework, I can see a bit where he is going and how is is pushing hard and quickly to gain clarity.

The journal is a "public" document.  I am in charge of writing the journal and my wife is in charge of reading, correcting and initialing that she believes that is an accurate representation of the conversation that we just had.

The way I plan to write it is to leave any disagreements "on the page".  So I will make sure my wife's version is down there and my version.

I think that a lot of the relationship wisdom comes from understanding what people disagree on and if possible, why they disagree.

I'm totally onboard with Notwendy's attitude, I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

FF

[formflier]

It sounds like you are saying your wife is now resisting the process of this therapy?

We'll see if she shows up for the meeting this evening.  I'm going to email her to set up the meeting time for 9pm and offer assistance getting kids in be by 830pm so that we can be uninterrupted for 20 minutes starting at 9pm. 

That means we will really get started at 915 and I can be done in time to start the process of getting in bed by 10pm and have a decent chance to be mask on and off to zzzzz land by 1030.

I'm 99% sure she read our homework and "knew" we were supposed to meet last night, but I can't "prove" it.  It seemed to me she was avoiding me and "hiding" last night.  "Chasing" her rarely goes well, especially if I am trying to "pin her down" on doing something at a specific point in time that she doesn't want to do.

The point of the homework assignment is to pin her down and for her to take ownership of agreeing to "my plan" or "creating one of her own" after listening to lots of opinions.  MC hasn't said this specifically, but he has talked about the need for clarity and ownership of decisions.  So, yes it appears she has been put in charge, that means she can't blame, it's hers to own.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Yeah, I think lots of married couples can have different perspectives, that's totally fine. The issue we bump into is that I'm okay with having differing perspectives, he is not. That makes things hard. He'll say he's okay to disagree, but clearly, he's not.

I really don't care if his perpective is different, until he starts telling me what I think, feel, and how to live my life. Then it's a problem.

Do you run into this too?

[Sunfl0wer]

Is your responsibility dependent on her part?  Can you somehow still do your part?

What I mean is... .

If you are unable to get her to agree to a meeting time, can you simply state, I will be available to meet this evening between 8:30 and 9:15 in the bedroom. 

Then, if she doesn't show up, have the meeting alone, sit and work on something solo.

That way she cannot "escape" her responsibility by blaming you for not coordinating a time.

Does this make sense?

Or is there something else that makes sense that allows you to do your role, and gives her a choice to participate, rather than participation being dependent on you two cooperating about setting the meeting.

[formflier]

She responded reasonably via email.  Expressed enthusiasm and gave some feedback about things that she would like to discuss.

Fingers crossed.

Near as I can tell there was an event she forgot today (I had never heard of it) for S13.  She kind of went scurrying off to handle that.  Not sure what she will be like when she gets back from that.

FF

[Fian]

So whatever happened to sharing those private emails?  I believe your plan was to share it just before MC - how did your wife respond when she read them?

[formflier]

So whatever happened to sharing those private emails?  I believe your plan was to share it just before MC - how did your wife respond when she read them?

I sent them to her on Sunday, so she had about 24 hours to read and process.

I could tell she read them due to the crappy mood she turned into, but there was no big blowup.

MC changed focus to the journaling and to focus on the "birthday party blowup" thing that I wrote about. 

Basically, I have some repair work to do after that and she has to get on-board with meetings and journaling.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Do you want to share what is meant by 'repair work' regarding birthday blowup?

[formflier]

Do you want to share what is meant by 'repair work' regarding birthday blowup?

Sure.  My anger is mine.  I need to own up to that without "justifying" it based on someone else's bad behavior.

FF

[Cole]

We tried MC several times with complete failure.

This time it is working very well. The difference is the intense, unexplained, underlying anger my wife had toward me has been resolved through her therapist. (She came to the realization she was angry at me because she expected marrying me to solve her low self esteem issues and it did not. She has been able to address this.)

From what I read, Mrs. FF seems to have the same anger issues with you, and I bet she does not even know why. Is this being addressed in therapy on her own?  

My wife's anger caused me to be pretty mad back at her; it is a vicious circle. Is this the source of some of your anger?

[formflier]

My wife's anger caused me to be pretty mad back at her; it is a vicious circle. Is this the source of some of your anger?

Yeah,

For instance, her parents and she both express concern about my health.  I have a sleep disorder and several of my disabilities make it hard to sleep.

Yet, when they want to be loud and watch TV they expect me to deal with it or go somewhere else on a moments notice.

I stood up to it, police got involved, and by and large they leave me alone now.

But will still say that I can or should go sleep somewhere else "so they can have a life, "

I extend both middle fingers to their life, and in true Monty Python style "fart in their general direction"

Like , most of our stories it is more complicated than that. 

The word respect is very triggering to that family, not sure why.   But they have an inability to respect the boundaries of others, I am unapologetic about defining and enforcing boundaries that they seem to be bumping into.

FF 

[Verbena]

My husband has refused any and all marriage counseling.  I think he knows that if his behavior was discussed, he wouldn't look good and that "none of this ever happened" or "I don't remember" wouldn't cut it in front of a counselor.

He maintains that counseling would do no good, and he is probably right.  He is never going to address his behavior or be accountable for it, and his behavior is the reason I have detached from him.  When there is a mentally ill, disordered person in a marriage who refuses to address their issues, I'm not sure that marriage counseling could ever be successful.  

Cole, it's encouraging that your wife has finally recognized the source of her anger.  FF, I find it very puzzling that your wife has been willing to do years of marriage counseling--and continues to embrace counseling--when she shows no signs of any recognition of her own mental illness or desire to get help for it. I think your goal for marriage counseling is completely different from your wife's.  I see you, FF, as using marriage counseling as a possible way to make your marriage better.  I see your wife as using counseling as a way to force you into submission and admit what a sorry human being you are.  She really needs for you to be as awful as she tells everyone you are. 

[HurtinNW]

My husband has refused any and all marriage counseling.  I think he knows that if his behavior was discussed, he wouldn't look good and that "none of this ever happened" or "I don't remember" wouldn't cut it in front of a counselor.

He maintains that counseling would do no good, and he is probably right.  He is never going to address his behavior or be accountable for it, and his behavior is the reason I have detached from him.  When there is a mentally ill, disordered person in a marriage who refuses to address their issues, I'm not sure that marriage counseling could ever be successful.  

Cole, it's encouraging that your wife has finally recognized the source of her anger.  FF, I find it very puzzling that your wife has been willing to do years of marriage counseling--and continues to embrace counseling--when she shows no signs of any recognition of her own mental illness or desire to get help for it. I think your goal for marriage counseling is completely different from your wife's.  I see you, FF, as using marriage counseling as a possible way to make your marriage better.  I see your wife as using counseling as a way to force you into submission and admit what a sorry human being you are.  She really needs for you to be as awful as she tells everyone you are. 

I have to wonder for FF wife if any attention is as good as another. She seems to feed off of chaos and discord. All the drama of counseling may be just another way she is soothing herself with chaos. From the descriptions of her family it sounds like they all feed off of drama. For people like that it doesn't matter if the attention is negative or positive.

It doesn't sound to me like FF wife has made any movement in years of therapy attempts. My ex and I tried four different counselors over four years. None worked. He was either using therapy as a platform to regurgitate all my crimes, or else arguing with the counselor.

I think for my ex therapy was yet another narcissistic supply. It was a chance for him to get pity, attention, or have someone else who was "wrong" to argue against. There was no real effort to engage with therapy to actually change.

I worry the same is true for FF wife, and if so, therapy is not only not productive, it is simply reinforcing her drama-seeking behaviors.

[formflier]

 

A bit of nuance, there was undeniable "relative" progress for about 1.5 to 2 years that came to screeching halt soon after we moved here.

Thongs were good enough that I moved family away from where I was raised

More later.

FF

[Verbena]

 

If she made some progress with marriage counseling in the past, it's possible that she could again.  Or, HurtinNW could be exactly right and she may be feeding off the drama of being in counseling which is actually making everything worse.  

Another possibility:  She now regrets the "relative progress" she made in counseling before she moved near her family.  Now that she has her disordered parents and sister nearby, she is more emboldened to paint you black (and herself white) through marriage counseling.  

It's just really strange to me that her insistence on getting another therapist/counselor coincided with your move near her family--which coincided with her behavior suddenly becoming so much worse.  She didn't stop to think that her bad behavior would be discussed in counseling?  

The fact that she insisted on a Christian counselor is puzzling, too.  

I would think at least two things would need to happen for her to make any progress through marriage counseling:

1.  Get past all the contempt she feels for you.

2.  Recognize that she has a mental illness and get help separately on her own for dealing with it.

[formflier]

 She didn't stop to think that her bad behavior would be discussed in counseling?  

This week will be interesting.

She is writing a letter of confession, similar to the one that I wrote about the "birthday party blowup".

So, I focused on me and wrote about the things that I did wrong.  Those of you that remember the thread remember that I was triggered, and when my father in law said that there was no problem and no talk was going to happen, I pretty much laid it all out there.  Others in my family did as well.

It's amazing that the information that needs to be on the table, can only come out in dysfunctional ways. 

My letter blamed nobody else for my feelings or actions.  That is consistent with Biblical principles and principles we teach here. 

It wasn't an easy letter to write.

I also wrote a letter about my sleep issues.  The counselor wanted me to confess that I made sleep more important that glorifying God.  My letter said that I would not say that because I didn't believe I did that.  That the most loving thing I could do for my family was to get good, restful sleep.  That it is one thing to be inconvenienced by your family, it is another for family members to control your sleep in a way that is counter to medical advice.

I'm also having some more visits with drs about my sleep issues, to see if anything else can be done.  Last official sleep study was 6 years ago.  If nothing else, it's time to get new, fresh, data.

Anyway, my wife has to write a letter of confession in her role about denying me sleep and putting time with family and friends over glorifying God and loving her husband.

Yeah, that's going to be interesting. 

FF

[formflier]

Today started out great!

Then wife had lots of questions about how I wrote my letter, did anyone help me. 

I probably should have cut the conversation off earlier, but after two circles of a circular discussion, I stated that I was happy to discuss this if we exited the circle or I could exit the conversation, her choice.

She blamed me for circle, and I exited the convo.

Weird, it was not a argument, but she was trying to "pin" something on me, not sure what.

At first I thought she was asking "how" to write a letter like I did.  I told her about reading verses, finding verses that "spoke to me" (no, I didn't hear voices) or "connected to me".

Honestly the biggest thing that I was convicted about was the question of "where is the grace?"  I am a recipient of grace from God and the purpose of that grace is not to "hold it" for me but to pass it on to others so I can be a blessing to them.  Lately, I can point to very few examples of where I have done that for my wife.

Anyway, I suspect that she things the letter is now a sham or "put on". 

Couple hours later we exchanged some friendly texts.

So, who knows?  It will be interesting when the light shines on her,

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

I' m thinking, if she tries to pull you into her homework, stay out?

Disengage, sound boring?

If she effectively pulls you in and you give advice, you will get blame for it somehow later.

Allow her to be responsible for her side of this without anything that can be misconstrued as you interfering?

Is there any expectation for you two to "assist" the other in their assigned role?

My advice to her may have been:

I wrote what is in my heart. End!

[formflier]

I wrote what is in my heart. End!

That would have been much better.  Instead of the "explaining" that I did.

I'll be ready if it comes up again.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I also wrote a letter about my sleep issues.  The counselor wanted me to confess that I made sleep more important that glorifying God.  My letter said that I would not say that because I didn't believe I did that.  That the most loving thing I could do for my family was to get good, restful sleep.  That it is one thing to be inconvenienced by your family, it is another for family members to control your sleep in a way that is counter to medical advice.

The counselor kinda asked you to JADE all over the place with that challenge. The parts you italicized seem to show a lot of explaining. I'd suggest you minimize this part if you can... .and focus more on the bolded statement, or things in that area. This makes sense to me, but my theology should be taken with a big grain of salt.

When my sleep is disrupted, I'm at my worst; At those times, I lose some of my best ability to act according to God's will, or to glorify God.

[empath]

Are you told what to write about in the confession letters? If so, I would take the letter with a grain of salt because people can write or say things under compulsion by others that are not necessarily evidence of internal heart change. It's like when people are caught in sins and are required to do certain things for restitution, but it is viewed more as a punishment.