Did I SET ok? FF trying to get better at texting

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So, to put this in context.  I lost my primary set of keys that I normally keep in my pocket (of course I found them just a few minutes ago) and I've been without them for a few days.  I finally got to the point where I decided to get more house keys made and my wife has the only copy that I know about.  Yes there were extra copies made, but who knows where they are right now?

So, I asked if I could have hers to go make copies.  She got indignant and said if I could guarantee that she would give it back.  I said I would do my best and she said then the answer is no.   I then asked her if she could make copies today on her way home as I was getting nervous about not having a key.  She said no, it would have to wait for the weekend.  I said OK and left it at that.  I don't think I took the bait with the indignant thing or wherever she was trying to go.  My guess is she wanted me to challenge her on being unreasonable or something.

So after saying she would do it this weekend she leaves in on the stair rail at home.  This text exchange happens while I am out in town.


ff wife: Did you see that I left our last remaining house key mine on the stair-rail? 7:46 AM

ff wife: Please make any copies you need and give that back to me tonight 7:46 AM

ff wife: I did not appreciate being asked for the only key we have this morning and then when I did not want to give it to you being told that I had to stop and make copies today 7:46 AM

ff wife: Yet when I asked you if you would give the key back to me this evening you said you would do the best you can 7:47 AM

ff wife: We worked out our schedule last night and I do not appreciate no notice for stopping and getting something new, done 7:48 AM

ff wife: Hope you have a good day and are able to get some things done today 7:48 AM

Me: I understand it can be very frustrating to be told things to do 7:48 AM  (this is my SET attempt)

Me: I get frustrated as well when I'm told things to do that's a normal reaction for anyone 7:49 AM (likely would be better if I had said "anyone would be frustrated" in stead of making it about me, )

Me: Which is why I asked you if you could do it instead of telling you 7:50 AM

ff wife: You do not hold a psychologist degree I do not need to be told whether or not any reactions you believe I am having our normal or not thank you 7:50 AM

Me: I can only do my best I really hate to guarantee things these days 7:50 AM

ff wife: You told me 7:50 AM

Me: And no I did not see the key I will look for it when I get back home 7:51 AM

ff wife: In that case I can only do my best as well and that doesn't include working anymore 7:51 AM (bait I left on the floor)

Me: Your best is all I can ask of you 7:51 AM

ff wife: When you have children you grow up and you do what needs to be done best 7:51 AM

ff wife: You seem to want me to be a Christian wife but you just want to do your best 7:53 AM

Me: Can a Christian do more than their best? 7:53 AM  (honestly befuddled here, could I have done better)

ff wife: The Bible clearly says God will not give us more than we can handle (she texts my name) 7:54 AM

Me: I agree the Bible doesn't expect us to do more than our best 7:54 AM

ff wife: So doing our is not an excuse to not get done what needs to be done 7:55 AM

Me: I don't understand bringing up excuses 7:55 AM  (I'm guessing she is trying to start a fight about something, like me not doing something)

ff wife: That is clearly not what I said 7:55 AM  (I think an invitation to say "yes you did" and go circular)

ff wife: How about we stop texting and take this time to pray and we can talk later 7:56 AM

Me: I agree we should pray and I think it would be even better tonight never start these conversations by text in the first place 7:57 AM

Me: To never 7:57 AM

end of texts

So, how did I do?

She clearly go offended by my SET.  I moved on and let it go.  Would I have been better of to say "I can see how frustrating that must be, "

Or just ignore the entire thing?

FF

[formflier]

So, to put this in context.  I lost my primary set of keys that I normally keep in my pocket (of course I found them just a few minutes ago) and I've been without them for a few days.  I finally got to the point where I decided to get more house keys made and my wife has the only copy that I know about.  Yes there were extra copies made, but who knows where they are right now?

So, I asked if I could have hers to go make copies.  She got indignant and said if I could guarantee that she would give it back.  I said I would do my best and she said then the answer is no.   I then asked her if she could make copies today on her way home as I was getting nervous about not having a key.  She said no, it would have to wait for the weekend.  I said OK and left it at that.  I don't think I took the bait with the indignant thing or wherever she was trying to go.  My guess is she wanted me to challenge her on being unreasonable or something.

So after saying she would do it this weekend she leaves in on the stair rail at home.  This text exchange happens while I am out in town.


ff wife: Did you see that I left our last remaining house key mine on the stair-rail? 7:46 AM

ff wife: Please make any copies you need and give that back to me tonight 7:46 AM

ff wife: I did not appreciate being asked for the only key we have this morning and then when I did not want to give it to you being told that I had to stop and make copies today 7:46 AM

ff wife: Yet when I asked you if you would give the key back to me this evening you said you would do the best you can 7:47 AM

ff wife: We worked out our schedule last night and I do not appreciate no notice for stopping and getting something new, done 7:48 AM

ff wife: Hope you have a good day and are able to get some things done today 7:48 AM

Me: I understand it can be very frustrating to be told things to do 7:48 AM  (this is my SET attempt)

Me: I get frustrated as well when I'm told things to do that's a normal reaction for anyone 7:49 AM (likely would be better if I had said "anyone would be frustrated" in stead of making it about me, )

Me: Which is why I asked you if you could do it instead of telling you 7:50 AM

ff wife: You do not hold a psychologist degree I do not need to be told whether or not any reactions you believe I am having our normal or not thank you 7:50 AM

Me: I can only do my best I really hate to guarantee things these days 7:50 AM

ff wife: You told me 7:50 AM

Me: And no I did not see the key I will look for it when I get back home 7:51 AM

ff wife: In that case I can only do my best as well and that doesn't include working anymore 7:51 AM (bait I left on the floor)

Me: Your best is all I can ask of you 7:51 AM

ff wife: When you have children you grow up and you do what needs to be done best 7:51 AM

ff wife: You seem to want me to be a Christian wife but you just want to do your best 7:53 AM

Me: Can a Christian do more than their best? 7:53 AM  (honestly befuddled here, could I have done better)

ff wife: The Bible clearly says God will not give us more than we can handle (she texts my name) 7:54 AM

Me: I agree the Bible doesn't expect us to do more than our best 7:54 AM

ff wife: So doing our is not an excuse to not get done what needs to be done 7:55 AM

Me: I don't understand bringing up excuses 7:55 AM  (I'm guessing she is trying to start a fight about something, like me not doing something)

ff wife: That is clearly not what I said 7:55 AM  (I think an invitation to say "yes you did" and go circular)

ff wife: How about we stop texting and take this time to pray and we can talk later 7:56 AM

Me: I agree we should pray and I think it would be even better tonight never start these conversations by text in the first place 7:57 AM

Me: To never 7:57 AM

end of texts

So, how did I do?

She clearly go offended by my SET.  I moved on and let it go.  Would I have been better of to say "I can see how frustrating that must be, "

Or just ignore the entire thing?

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

I am actually interested to see what others say regarding applying the tools.

I will reply actually for practice in case it helps in any way... .

Yet, what comes to mind is... .

Why did the key need a whole 'conversation?' 

Could you have simply thanked her for leaving the key, say you will do your best?

Set:

S:  thank you for leaving the key, that is helpful. 

E:  This must be frustrating.

T:  having a key is important, I hope to get a key made tonight before xyz activity.

End: disengage

[Fian]

So why not just say "Yes, I will return the key this evening" as opposed to "I will do my best"?

[byfaith]

This is what I have learned to do, cut the texting out when I see it going nowhere. I have actually learned to ignore texts ( I do face some anger on my wife's part or she comments on me ignoring texts) I have taken the stance that I will not do the back and forth on the texts. What I may do is just pick up the phone and call her depending on the situation.

Would I have been better of to say "I can see how frustrating that must be... "

I have been reading on validation statements. That probably would have been better but sometimes it's difficult to say the exact right thing

maybe after this from her

ff wife: Hope you have a good day and are able to get some things done today 7:48 AM

maybe you could have just texted thanks for leaving the key I appreciate that and I hope you have a productive day also, love you!

that MAY have stopped it from going further

[formflier]

So why not just say "Yes, I will return the key this evening" as opposed to "I will do my best"?

She usually tries to get me to "guarantee" results, then life happens (kids get sick, something breaks at home, etc etc) and then something doesn't get done that was "guaranteed", then all of hades breaks loose.

So, I have taken that out of my vocabulary.  Now, I will say things like, "I will be there at 5pm, or will give you a text update if running late"

FF

[formflier]

Set:

S:  thank you for leaving the key, that is helpful. 

E:  This must be frustrating.

T:  having a key is important, I hope to get a key made tonight before xyz activity.

End: disengage

This is much better than what I did.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

I keep forgetting how to use tools here, so if I am off base, please share... .

I feel like I learned some kind of 'formula' communicating with my ex.  Maybe this only works for him, idk, but ya never know so I'll share.

Identify when he is triggered

     => choose to disengage asap smoothly

              OR

     => choose to help soothe (validation/empathy)

     

The safest route was always disengage, because he would not get fuel for further anger at me.

However, he sometimes was up for the challenge of engaging with me and me remaining present during his upset.  Yet, I also had to be up for the challenge.  This worked sometimes, however, was very tricky to get us both in alignment and stay in alignment during it.  Maybe it had a 5% success rate.  However it never had success while I was in painted black mode.  It really worked most often when already generally painted white.

... .

The theme I seem to be feeling in your posts is... .

FFW is behaving from a place of Trigger.

Do you feel that you are having a mental moment of... .

FF: Hey, looks like W is triggered right now.

?

... .

Yet, your issue appears to be that she is in a hyperarousal state of paranoia to you so I suspect, remaining BIFF is important.

Maybe validation can be used during positive times? Maybe try more to validate her successes at this time of paranoia rather than using validation as a tool for deescalating conflict?

Ex: find more opportunities to celebrate and express a shared emotional context of her doing great at work, or what ever she is proud of.

[formflier]

Yep, she was already "up" a notch or two.  I had no idea the key would be a big deal.  Perhaps she was already fired up over something.

So, if 1-10 is the scale and 10 is a dysregulation. She got to a 3 and then by time she left had backed off a notch. 

Then the texts.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Well... .

Maybe?

She is paranoid.

She keeps many of her thoughts and feelings secret, such as you finding out later on she thought you wanted to kill her.

She may appear to you to be untriggered or low trigger at a number 3.

Are you comfortable with your ability to assess this?

How can you tell if she doesn't just leave you while she is at a 'presented 3, but internal 8' before her 8 becomes visible to you... .and then stews on her level 8 alone? 

Especially of you are performing your "is my wife triggered' assessment via txt.

I am soo good at being pissed (5) but writing like a perfect 1 

[formflier]

Are you comfortable with your ability to assess this?

In person I can usually do pretty good.  I can usually tell by strain showing in the face and her eyes.

Hard to describe, but I can tell

Yeah, via text it is usually when words are jumbled and misspelled.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

In person I can usually do pretty good.  I can usually tell by strain showing in the face and her eyes.

. 

Humm, idk, maybe my point is... .

1. Just because she is appearing to 'need' a conversation expanded, does not mean she can handle it.

2. Maybe stay more BIFF txt, (as I think you decided a while back.)  And save validation for in person.

3. Maybe try validating positive things for developing a more shared positive/supportive emotional experience.

4. When there is a topic (keys) stay on course!  This looks so much NOT about keys!  Where the heck did you pple go?

I hope you got some sleep!

[Verbena]

I think I would have just said, "Thank you for leaving me the key.  I will get copies made today." 

Nothing else. 

Is she texting you while she's driving to school?  I always wonder this when I see the times on her texts. 

[formflier]

Is she texting you while she's driving to school?  I always wonder this when I see the times on her texts. 

Yes, it is while driving to school, or hanging out waiting for school to start.  Note, the times are an hour early, I need to figure out why my defaults list the times like that.

FF

[Fian]

So why not just say "Yes, I will return the key this evening" as opposed to "I will do my best"?

She usually tries to get me to "guarantee" results... then life happens (kids get sick, something breaks at home, etc etc) and then something doesn't get done that was "guaranteed"... .then all of hades breaks loose.

So... I have taken that out of my vocabulary.  Now... I will say things like... "I will be there at 5pm... or will give you a text update if running late"

FF

I agree on not using the word guarantee, but I would still have said that you would return the key by such a time.  By making the discussion more legal, I think that may have partially set her off.  Better to just say you will do something, and then deal with her when the unexpected happens, than have every conversation be viewed negatively by her.

[formflier]

 

Right, but if she starts of using the "legal language", do I just drop the conversation?

By saying "best I can" I thought I was taking it down a notch, getting away from legal language.

In the past, when she has gotten like this, I have tried to say other things, close to what fian suggested.  "I will give key back" (and drop the guarantee word), and she sticks with it, looking for the guarantee.

Note:  Life has happened today.  I'm not going to get key made before she gets home.  I am typing this while stuck on hold.  It is what it is.

Likely she will demand a detailed explanation of what I did today to find where I screwed up.  I will decline, politely, to give a detailed account.

Sigh,

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

IMO: Her 'need' for a guarantee is just a great way to set all up for disappointment. 

The reality is, life has no guarantees.  To validate and agree is a lie. You cannot do better than your best.

Her request for a guarantee is NOT about a key.

It is likely about her resentments of you and her feeling you often fail to meet her expectations.

Please... .

Keep this conversation simply about a key.

A key needs no guarantee.

Don't pick up her issue of underlying stuff... .stay focused on key.

[formflier]

Don't pick up her issue of underlying stuff, stay focused on key.

So, she asks for guarantee, I say my best, she goes back to guarantee and I?

Ignoring is bad, walking away with saying nothing is bad,

Thoughts on what to say?

Or perhaps just say, "life has no guarantees, I'll bring the key back at 5pm or else you get a free massage", or something to try and lighten things up.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Ignoring is bad... .walking away with saying nothing is bad... .

Darn it! Good point!

How about... .


"My plan is to have key made after xyz on schedule, god willing!"

End! Exit through some escape hatch portal!

FFw: "So you are agreeing that you will 100% have key made tonight?"

FF: That's the plan!

[empath]

ff wife: Yet when I asked you if you would give the key back to me this evening you said you would do the best you can 7:47 AM

ff wife: We worked out our schedule last night and I do not appreciate no notice for stopping and getting something new... done 7:48 AM

I think you missed her emotion here and why she was upset. I don't think it was really about 'being told', but about changing plans after the schedule was made. You couldn't guarantee that you would get the key made which implied more uncertainty and an ensuing convo about making sure that things get done rather than doing the 'best'. She keeps telling you, but you aren't getting it. (it is easier to see after the fact and in written form than it is IRL discussions)

I'm going to suggest that you discuss your need to get a key made during your scheduling meeting.

ff wife: The Bible clearly says God will not give us more than we can handle (she texts my name) 7:54 AM

Um, that's not in the Bible -- it's one of my own personal pet peeves. He does provide a way of escape from temptation... .  The good thing for us is that the Bible is written down which makes it easy to verify.

[Verbena]

I wouldn't engage in any text conversations when you know she is behind the wheel.  Texting while driving is incredibly dangerous.  Add to that her agitated state while she is driving and texting, and it's even worse.  She's a mother of eight and she should know better.  Would she be okay with your teenagers doing this?  Would you?

And yes, this really isn't about the key.  It's another venue for picking a fight, appearing superior, and putting you in your place.  Just don't go there, even if you have to ignore. 

[Notwendy]

One observation of these conversations is that they don't stay on topic. One thing your wife does is throw in the Bible and then the conversation swerves into what the Bible says.

I truly respect the aspect of religion and know that it is an important part of your lives, however, in the context of these texts, it seems to be kitchen sinking, possibly triangulating ( the Bible as a third entity) and a sense of one upmanship/authority.

These texts may seem superficially about small topics, like getting dog food or making a key copy, but the underlying resentments ( she is working /you are "not" ( I say this in quotes as there are different forms of work and this is a black and white way of looking at it, but still, this may be how she thinks) ) . Somehow something like misplacing a key turns into combination resentment/sermon.

One idea that comes to mind ( besides staying on topic) is to not engage in Bible kitchen sinking. It isn't reverent, spiritual, or helpful in the moment. This isn't a boundary she is likely to keep, but you can.

Here is where she kitchen sinks religion- she brings it up-

ff wife: You seem to want me to be a Christian wife but you just want to do your best 7:53 AM  ( this is kind of a dig- I am the good one, and you aren't trying? One can choose to ignore this.

Me: Can a Christian do more than their best? 7:53 AM  (honestly befuddled here... could I have done better)  This is a form of JADE- self defense?- one response could be to not address this strange and confusing question-could you have done better? She is kitchen sinking here, a resentment?- Maybe diffuse it and bring it back to the key. "Aw honey I know you are a good Christian, I just need a key at the moment".

ff wife: The Bible clearly says God will not give us more than we can handle (she texts my name) 7:54 AM

And you bite the hook

Me: I agree the Bible doesn't expect us to do more than our best 7:54 AM



Now, you are on Bible, not keys, well you left keys a while back. "The Bible clearly says"... .sorry, but it isn't often that the Bible is so clear in the moment of resentment and texting, and if she is heaven forbid, texting in the car, while driving- the LAW is pretty clear about this.

Bible has an important place in your marriage, however, one idea is to keep that place to a time/space where the two of you can truly focus on it- in prayer, alone, church, and a unifying force, a guiding force, not an kitchen sink topic.

[formflier]

So, I do see the shift in topic.

Do I ignore the shift or state that I will not shift, or what?

[Notwendy]

Get back to topic, the key. If the conversation is too far off track and you have nothing left to say about the key, then just gently end it. It may be that you have to stop these texts all together, as it is clear that you don't get the resolution you want- either about the dog food or the key.

Glad you found the key, but ultimately, if she didn't give you one and you don't find them, call a locksmith. Now that you have them, copy them, put some spares away.

In the case of the dog food, buy some. Wrong brand? The dog will deal with it, he won't starve.

If a conversation isn't getting the results you want, then you can gently exit.

I know finances are limited but sometimes if you want something and the issue becomes a point of control/contention/resentment, then bypassing it may be an option. One issue we had was me asking my H to watch the kids if I wanted to do something. That was a set up as it put me doing something in his hands. He could agree, then change his mind or refuse. Sometimes it was a work related meeting. I soon learned to get a sitter instead.

If asking my H about a key or pet food became a point of conflict,  I would consider a bypass and get it another way if I had to.

And you can choose to only discuss Bible in situations that are appropriate for that. This isn't something you say, but something you do.

[Sunfl0wer]

This reminds me of the dog food.

I think someone advised you (maybe GK) to ask, if she blocks info, then you have your answer.  Accept, proceed on.

In this situation her behavior communicates:

I am unable to speak of the key, only God and my resentments towards you.

Continuing in any direction is engaging in those two topics.

Maybe instead of thinking you have to 'ignore' or declare a stance... .

(Which can be black and white btw... .and triggering)

How about think in terms of 'FF will stay focused on topic'

It appears anything else just leads you down a rabbit hole.

What I mean is... .

You neither have to ignore nor take any stance on how to be communicated to.

You can simply acknowledge fast, move back to key.

FF:

Acknowledge option 1: I'm confused, anyway... .

Moving on option: I plan to have key done later

Acknowledge option 2: You have been doing hard work in prayer.

Moving on option: I hope I can get key made as that would be easiest for all.

Truth: I am glad when these issues do not add to our work, I appreciate your desire for xyz

Or you can ignore.

Yet, I suspect you know better if not acknowledging is more helpful than a small fast acknowledge.

Yea, I'm not sure now... .wish I could erase post, sorry!,

[byfaith]

maybe I am being too simplistic here... .

ff wife: Did you see that I left our last remaining house key mine on the stair-rail? 7:46 AM

ff wife: Please make any copies you need and give that back to me tonight 7:46 AM

ff wife: I did not appreciate being asked for the only key we have this morning and then when I did not want to give it to you being told that I had to stop and make copies today 7:46 AM

ff wife: Yet when I asked you if you would give the key back to me this evening you said you would do the best you can 7:47 AM

ff wife: We worked out our schedule last night and I do not appreciate no notice for stopping and getting something new... done 7:48 AM



ff wife: Hope you have a good day and are able to get some things done today 7:48 AM

ignore everthing in bold and send a text like this " thank you for giving me the key and I hope you have a nice day, love you!"

IMHO that is putting the Bible in practice without even mentioning the Bible or God. Yes and ignoring parts of the text have to do with swallowing our pride.

I am asking this for my own reference. Tell me where I would be failing if I approached it from this angle.

[formflier]

How about think in terms of 'FF will stay focused on topic'

It appears anything else just leads you down a rabbit hole.

This is something I think i can stay focused on.

Also, I like the point Notwendy made about getting a sitter and not placing important things in the hands of someone that has proven they will use them against you.

FF

[empath]

When she tries to use Scripture to manipulate you, restate the issue that you are addressing. She's trying to get you off on a different topic where she can feel better about herself. Don't let her squirm off the hook. Stay focused.

[formflier]

  She's trying to get you off on a different topic where she can feel better about herself. Don't let her squirm off the hook. 

Interesting thought,

So, she realizes that she was a s$$ about the key, and wants to gain moral high ground. 

Hmmm

I can see this.

FF

[Notwendy]

I think Sunflower made a good point that the main topic your wife discusses is her resentments and religion ( as a means of justifying ?) She isn't seeming to share her insights on the Bible with you, rather quoting to make a point. This is the road these discussions seem to take.

To me once a discussion has taken off course, I don't know if it is possible or even worth the effort to try to redirect it. Sometimes I just stop- disengage. Not so much as a boundary but "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" . I stop because, this discussion just is not working. I can let it go, or bring it up in MC or at another time, but it isn't working right now.

IMHO, I think resentments and Bible are probably best not discussed by text. You can start a text- where are the keys. or the dog food, but the minute she digs her heels in or takes it off course, that is the end of the text. She can choose to keep sending them or not. Your part is to say "honey, can't text now, gotta go, love you" and that's it. You may also decide to stop asking her questions beyond what is absolutely necessary, like picking up a child or something by text.

Anyone can quote scripture for their own reasons. The Bible can "clearly say" what a person thinks it clearly says. I don't think we need to make a list of disordered persons in history quoting their religious scriptures and good people saying the same thing to make that point. But I think it is your Achilles heel in the sense that it is important to you, and because of that, you may want to consider boundaries around when and where you will discuss it. Your wife seems to run in this direction pretty quickly.

Debating what or which one of you is or did the "Christian" thing can become very messy quickly. People can have different ideas about that. Just one look at the number of different denominations is an example of the diversity in interpretations. Playing the right /wrong, good/bad, position in a marriage isn't a winning strategy. She might try it but it takes two to play.

[formflier]

She might try it but it takes two to play.

It's crazy how hard this is to see in my own stuff.

I'm sure I have said this many times when looking at posts by others.

You guys know I'm a direct and fairly straightforward thinker.

My takeaways are that I will continue to try an engage via text, BUT,

What is the topic or issue?  Once there is deviation I need to take a breath and decided to ignore or attempt a redirect.

Do I see a resentment or an "opinion" on the Bible or religious views?  FF pulls ejection handle

Always remembering it takes two to engage in dysfunctional behavior.

FF