Language to request vacation/travel notification

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I'm hoping someone can offer language I can include in a mediation request.

ExH isn't required to inform me when he takes the children out of state.  Notifying the other parent is a standard provision in my state.  However, he threatened to take our divorce to court over this issue, so I agreed to strike this provision when we divorced.  I didn't understand why it was so important to him (still don't) or what the ramifications would be.  One ramification is, he has told the children to lie to me about whether they're going anywhere.  Something my D therapist has worked on with her.  I'm going to request it in the mediation this month.

I don't know how to word my request, or what to make sure I include (out of state/country only, or out of town?, etc.).  :)oes anyone have advice or resources? 

[Ulysses]

I'm hoping someone can offer language I can include in a mediation request.

ExH isn't required to inform me when he takes the children out of state.  Notifying the other parent is a standard provision in my state.  However, he threatened to take our divorce to court over this issue, so I agreed to strike this provision when we divorced.  I didn't understand why it was so important to him (still don't) or what the ramifications would be.  One ramification is, he has told the children to lie to me about whether they're going anywhere.  Something my D therapist has worked on with her.  I'm going to request it in the mediation this month.

I don't know how to word my request, or what to make sure I include (out of state/country only, or out of town?, etc.).  :)oes anyone have advice or resources? 

[livednlearned]

People with BPD can be hypersensitive to feelings of control and engulfment. He does not want to have to tell you what he's doing, where he's going because it feels like cooperation, which requires a degree of vulnerability and turn-taking that he cannot submit to. I'm guessing... .

You may want to phrase it to say that notification is required when travel involves # days away from home, as well as out-of-state travel. It's reasonable to ask the other parent for an itinerary with flight #, hotel.

I might also include a stipulation that any vacation involving absence from school requires permission of both parents, as does travel outside the country.

To be clear, you are not trying to stop the travel, only to be notified?

One tactic that may or may not work is to phrase things (at first) in terms of what you will do. "Ulysses will notify ex of any out-of-state travel, as well as any travel lasting longer than x days. She will provide an itinerary with flight information and hotel/accommodation. If travel impacts school, she must seek permission from ex."

My ex would always agree, and then the mediator would write it up with, "both parties agree... ." and ex would push back. Which looks really strange at that point, because of course it would be both parties. Duh.

And then his L would appeal to ex's need to have his L like him by saying, "This is standard stuff, and she is giving you more than the state requires. It's a good arrangement, lessens conflict, I encourage you to give her this because we have other things here that are more important."

[ForeverDad]

Of course, you would have to make sure that any settlement ends up being reciprocal.  That is why LnL said it has to end up with "both parties agree... ."  Hopefully the mediator is smart enough to not muck it up.  You're not asking too much since it had better end up being equal vacation rules between you.

[Ulysses]

To be clear, you are not trying to stop the travel, only to be notified?

Oh my gosh, no, I wouldn't try to stop the travel.  I didn't even think twice about him not telling me, until I realized he had told my kids to not tell me they were going to Disneyland.  He told them to keep it secret from me.  He wouldn't let me talk to my kids per the parenting plan, wouldn't let them call me.  My son was able to call me, I asked him where he was (I had asked my attorney if I was allowed to ask him that question, and she told me she "thought it would be a good idea".  My son told me, and then it was like he relaxed.  He talked to me about how much fun he was having, the rides he liked, etc.  I was happy for him to be there, having a good time.  I felt like once he felt free to talk, he and I could connect again.

I will ask for flight and hotel info., too.  Hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense.  What if something happened to the flight? 

I have been told by therapists that it isn't normal to not inform the other parent, and it isn't healthy for my children (or me).

Thanks for the information.  I'm composing the email about it tonight.  It makes sense that it be reciprocal, but I hadn't initially worded it that way.  I also like the part about school.  Something like that happened recently, and I didn't think it was a good idea that he kept the kids out of school, but I didn't say anything.  Trying to be zen, not sure if I'm being that or a pushover.

The control issue makes sense to me.  Thanks for the info.

[Thunderstruck]

We put this into our proposed parenting plan (but we haven't gotten to trial yet so it's just our "rough draft"... .

Either parent may travel within the United States with the child during his/her time-sharing. The parent traveling with the child shall give the other parent at least 7 days written notice before traveling out of state unless there is an emergency, and shall provide the other parent with a detailed itinerary, including locations and telephone numbers where the child and parent can be reached at least 7 days before traveling.

Either parent may travel out of the country with the child during his/her time-sharing. At least 30 days prior to traveling, the parent shall provide a detailed itinerary, including locations, and telephone numbers where the child and parent may be reached during the trip. Each parent agrees to provide whatever documentation is necessary for the other parent to take the child out of the country.

Neither parent may travel with the child to a country that does not participate with the Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction enacted at the Hague on October 25, 1980.

[flourdust]

Here's the language from my parenting plan -- like Thunderstruck's, it's just a proposal at this point.

Travel out of town for vacation can take place during the parent’s regular schedule. The other parent must be notified in advance of any planned travel and provided with the itinerary and contact information for the trip. Child cannot leave the country without express written permission of the other parent, with the exception of cruise itineraries departing from and returning to a US port.

[Ulysses]

Thanks Thunderstruck and flourdust.  Lots to think about there, especially with the travel to another country.  I hadn't thought about the child Abduction thing - is that for safety of the child while traveling, or to ensure the other parent doesn't try to leave the country with the child and not come back?

I like the prior written notice, and approval for out of country travel.  I think exH's face would turn purple in anger if I requested that.  Likewise for a detailed itinerary.  He would spin it that I'm trying to control him.  But it seems normal to me that each parent is allowed to know where their children are. 

Thank you for the information.

[flourdust]

I hadn't thought about abduction. For me, it's about safety - having veto power over any crazy trips to Afghanistan or something.

[livednlearned]

If you are in a position to model what you would like him to do, that is ideal.

Would you feel comfortable providing as much info as you would if you were still together?

I do regret promising to arrange nightly talks because vacation travel meant our schedules were off, and that meant getting S14 to stop what he was doing to talk to dad. It interrupted things in a way that made it feel like we weren't really on vacation, mostly impacting S14, especially when he was younger.

[Ulysses]

If you are in a position to model what you would like him to do, that is ideal.

I'm not sure I understand.  Do you mean during mediation?  Or in general regarding travel?  I don't travel with the children because I don't have the money right now.  We went away for a few days last summer, and while I didn't email him the information, I didn't tell the kids to keep it secret.  I do believe I told him we were going out of town for a few days.

Would you feel comfortable providing as much info as you would if you were still together?

Honestly, probably not.  And I don't know if I want to ask for a detailed itinerary.  Flight, hotel, and city/location would be enough, I think.  He doesn't appear to be dangerous at this point, regarding these things, so I don't know that it would be reasonable to ask for it.

[livednlearned]

If you are in a position to model what you would like him to do, that is ideal.

I'm not sure I understand.  Do you mean during mediation?  Or in general regarding travel? 

Yes, travel.

The kids are probably being told to not tell you all kinds of things, and the travel was a pretty obvious example of something that goes on more regularly.

With help of people here (who recommended Warshak's book), I was able to crack that code by following some of the suggestions (it was either in the book or on his website, I can't remember) that walked S14 through the difference between lying, keeping secrets, withholding, forgetting, privacy.

Even now, S14 has a better grip on how those things differ than most adults. He recently told me an example of when he lied as a child, and then immediately gave examples of why it was lying and not secrecy or privacy.

The good thing is that your son eventually told you, and then felt relief.

I think our kids learn to compartmentalize things to avoid getting caught in loyalty binds and it really hurts them later on in life.

[ForeverDad]

I hadn't thought about abduction. For me, it's about safety - having veto power over any crazy trips to Afghanistan or something.

Actually, the concern expressed here is nearly always more about the child not being returned.  For example, Japan isn't a signer to the Hague Convention and they typically give their native parents automatic preference and non-native parents hit a brick wall of obstruction or non-response.  I think Mexico is a signer but it's extremely hard to get the locals courts and officials to cooperate.  Imagine the difficulties of a mother here trying to get children back from a Middle Eastern country where men have all the rights.  Even if the other country is cooperative an international custody case is expensive and time consuming.

In my case... .I usually don't have definite advance itinerary.  Driving between national parks and tourist spots is hard to schedule.  The only thing I'm really sure about is that I have to be back in two weeks.  Last year I had to cancel a two week vacation for health reasons but I had planned to drive through the Rocky Mountains.  There are all sorts of scenic roads and attractions there.  Maybe drive the Million Dollar Drive, on prior trips I loved the route 550 scenery between Durango to Silverton to Ouray.  I didn't know when I would arrive at Durango CO to ride the Durango-Silverton railroad or arrive at Chama NM to ride the Cumbres-Toltec railroad, both are historic narrow gauge 3-ft (normal is 4.5-ft).  (And you can get a fantastic meal at a station midway on the Cumbres train!)  I also wanted to ride the tram up Pike's Peak.  Maybe camp in some National Forest campsites.  All that I couldn't schedule and reserve too far in advance.  So I listed general plans and of course each of us have cell phones for contact, though there are many areas where no cell service is available.

Sadly, I tried prospecting in a California river a few years ago with my son and we didn't find anything.  Imagine, me a grizzled prospector wandering through remote mountain paths!    Well, maybe limping a bit... .

www.providentmetals.com/provident-metals-prospector-1-oz-silver-round.html

[Thunderstruck]

I hadn't thought about abduction. For me, it's about safety - having veto power over any crazy trips to Afghanistan or something.

Actually, the concern expressed here is nearly always more about the child not being returned.  For example, Japan isn't a signer to the Hague Convention and they typically give their native parents automatic preference and non-native parents hit a brick wall of obstruction or non-response.  I think Mexico is a signer but it's extremely hard to get the locals courts and officials to cooperate.  Imagine the difficulties of a mother here trying to get children back from a Middle Eastern country where men have all the rights.  Even if the other country is cooperative an international custody case is expensive and time consuming.

Yep.

uBPDbm can be low-functioning and impulsive at times. I think at the time that we drafted up the PP, we were facing multiple CPS and TRO accusations. uBPDbm was very dysregulated and was using almost everything she could to try to keep SD away from us. We wanted to put in some kind of wording that would not allow for her to just pick up with SD and not bring her back. In the US, the FBI will get involved in parental kidnapping cases. In other countries they will cooperate if they have signed the Hague convention (but... .as ForeverDad says... .getting them to follow it is another thing).

[Ulysses]

Forever Dad, (or should I say Forever Prospector?), I appreciate your comment that you don't always have advanced itinerary.  On the little trip I took locally with my kids last summer, I didn't either.  I had a hotel and city, and a general itinerary.  And limited cell connection.  I think an issue for me with this is exH taking the children out of the state and not telling me.  And then, me not being able to reach them, and the kids not being allowed to contact me.  It's just not conducive to building a well-functioning coparenting relationship, and it isn't in the best interest of the children.  I don't feel the need for detailed itinerary, but knowing where they'll be in general, and being able to talk to them (or arranging ahead of time that there might be some days it won't work due to cell coverage or scheduling) is what I'm looking for.  I understand the phone calls/contact are an issue for some, but my perspective is, we both agreed to it in the parenting plan.  We both need to follow it, and if there are exceptions, it's best to communicate/inform the other parent.  

Thunderstruck - I'm sorry to hear how extreme your SD's mom's actions were.  I think I understand why you would want that information included at that time.

LnL:

I think our kids learn to compartmentalize things to avoid getting caught in loyalty binds and it really hurts them later on in life.

This is my exH.  The MC told me he compartmentalizes.  I got to the point where I wondered, what's the difference between compartmentalizing and insanity?  I hope the support my S gets in therapy, in school (his school has a prominent Social and Emotional Learning component to its curriculum), and, perhaps, with me, will keep him from engaging in the same type of deceitful behavior as an adult, as his father does.

Thanks for your replies, it's all very helpful.