Boundaries and Sex Part 2

[formflier]

 It certainly doesn't help when I don't say anything because then he just thinks I'm ignoring him, which I am.

Can you give us some word for word and other details on how it goes.

He says this and then you end up ignoring him.

Then address how you guys "get back together" once the ignoring thing is over.


Many times, but not always, there is some sort of "reaction" that he is getting from "us", us being nons (you) that is "fueling" his actions and reactions.

This is very different than it being your fault.

Even if you are "doing it right", many times it is good to change your gameplan, to put him off balance.  Put him off balance in a healthy way.

FF



Mod note: This thread is the continuation of Boundaries and Sex

[toomanyeggshells]

Can you give us some word for word and other details on how it goes.

He says this and then you end up ignoring him.

Then address how you guys "get back together" once the ignoring thing is over.

Here's a perfect example from last night.  He's been in an extra bad mood the last few days so he's brooding and not initiating any conversation with me, except to criticize.  I get a phone call from my stepmother and speak for a few minutes.  When I come back and sit on the couch next to him, he starts making comments from listening to my side of the conversation ... ."there you go, making plans to take care of someone else", "that's what you always do, always taking care of other people", "you have no time for this r/s because you're always doing things for other people".  I don't respond to that, just sit next to him on the couch.

Then he starts in on my kids (D26, D29 who don't live with us) - "just like you take care of everything for your kids", "what spoiled, pieces of sh*% they are", "mommy (me) does whatever the spoiled little bit&^es want" and on and on and on.  When he starts, I either leave the house or go upstairs and close the bedroom door.  He usually keeps yelling for a few minutes until he realizes I won't respond.  Then I get a nice, quiet night to myself and we don't speak until morning when I call him before I leave for work like I always do.  Just a short, perfunctory conversation and then I won't speak to him again until after work.  Its usually pretty cold between us after one of these outbursts and thaws little by little to the next day. I don't usually initiate any conversation with him until maybe a day later, but if he speaks to me "normally" I respond.

Sometimes when he really can't help himself, he starts throwing things, but he's been a lot better with that in the last 6 months or so.

These outbursts are almost always brought on by his feeling "kicked to the curb" by me - when my kids visit from out of state, a family party that he wants no part of, me seeing a friend after work or even when I spend about an hour at night exercising (in the house, not even at a gym). 

I could give you other examples, but his reactions to everything that upsets him is the same - bad-mouthing my family and calling us all nasty names.

[Grey Kitty]

When I come back and sit on the couch next to him, he starts making comments from listening to my side of the conversation ... ."there you go, making plans to take care of someone else", "that's what you always do, always taking care of other people", "you have no time for this r/s because you're always doing things for other people".  I don't respond to that, just sit next to him on the couch.

Here's where I'd suggest changing your actions: When he makes the first snippy, passive-aggressive, or critical comment. Consider your options at that point and how they go:

1. Argue with him. JADE. (Obviously invalidating, and obviously leads to a fight most likely.) You didn't do that; you know better.

2. Ignore him. (what you did) This is still invalidating--he's trying to say something to you, trying to get your attention, and you are not even acknowledging him.

He keeps turning it up until eventually you leave. (the rest of your example)

Worked better than choice #1, but room for improvement.

3. End the conversation immediately. "I will not be spoken to that way." works for me. The next words out of his mouth may be as bad or worse, in which case you should leave anyway.

This is no worse than option #2, and you get spared five minutes of critical crap too. Perhaps he won't even stew quite as long if you are lucky.

4. Look for something to validate. You might try something like this:

":)o you feel like I'm ignoring you or putting you last?"

This is the toughest option. And you need to be feeling good and strong enough to do it from a place of sincerely caring about what he is feeling, not being afraid of his mood, or just plain sick of it.

It might be easier to start even earlier:

He's been in an extra bad mood the last few days so he's brooding and not initiating any conversation with me, except to criticize.

When one of you comes home from work and you see him in this mood, what about saying "How are you feeling? You look kinda grumpy."

[Sanna]

Can you give us some word for word and other details on how it goes.

He says this and then you end up ignoring him.

Then address how you guys "get back together" once the ignoring thing is over.

Here's a perfect example from last night.  He's been in an extra bad mood the last few days so he's brooding and not initiating any conversation with me, except to criticize.  I get a phone call from my stepmother and speak for a few minutes.  When I come back and sit on the couch next to him, he starts making comments from listening to my side of the conversation ... ."there you go, making plans to take care of someone else", "that's what you always do, always taking care of other people", "you have no time for this r/s because you're always doing things for other people".  I don't respond to that, just sit next to him on the couch.


Then he starts in on my kids (D26, D29 who don't live with us) - "just like you take care of everything for your kids", "what spoiled, pieces of sh*% they are", "mommy (me) does whatever the spoiled little bit&^es want" and on and on and on.  When he starts, I either leave the house or go upstairs and close the bedroom door.  He usually keeps yelling for a few minutes until he realizes I won't respond.  Then I get a nice, quiet night to myself and we don't speak until morning when I call him before I leave for work like I always do.  Just a short, perfunctory conversation and then I won't speak to him again until after work.  Its usually pretty cold between us after one of these outbursts and thaws little by little to the next day. I don't usually initiate any conversation with him until maybe a day later, but if he speaks to me "normally" I respond.

Sometimes when he really can't help himself, he starts throwing things, but he's been a lot better with that in the last 6 months or so.

These outbursts are almost always brought on by his feeling "kicked to the curb" by me - when my kids visit from out of state, a family party that he wants no part of, me seeing a friend after work or even when I spend about an hour at night exercising (in the house, not even at a gym). 

I could give you other examples, but his reactions to everything that upsets him is the same - bad-mouthing my family and calling us all nasty names.

Haha, you are perfectly describing my husband! He behaves exactly like this, and says exactly those things also!   Don´t know if I should laugh or cry... .would be interesting to see what happened if they met! 

[Sanna]

Can you give us some word for word and other details on how it goes.

He says this and then you end up ignoring him.

Then address how you guys "get back together" once the ignoring thing is over.

Here's a perfect example from last night.  He's been in an extra bad mood the last few days so he's brooding and not initiating any conversation with me, except to criticize.  I get a phone call from my stepmother and speak for a few minutes.  When I come back and sit on the couch next to him, he starts making comments from listening to my side of the conversation ... ."there you go, making plans to take care of someone else", "that's what you always do, always taking care of other people", "you have no time for this r/s because you're always doing things for other people".  I don't respond to that, just sit next to him on the couch.


Then he starts in on my kids (D26, D29 who don't live with us) - "just like you take care of everything for your kids", "what spoiled, pieces of sh*% they are", "mommy (me) does whatever the spoiled little bit&^es want" and on and on and on.  When he starts, I either leave the house or go upstairs and close the bedroom door.  He usually keeps yelling for a few minutes until he realizes I won't respond.  Then I get a nice, quiet night to myself and we don't speak until morning when I call him before I leave for work like I always do.  Just a short, perfunctory conversation and then I won't speak to him again until after work.  Its usually pretty cold between us after one of these outbursts and thaws little by little to the next day. I don't usually initiate any conversation with him until maybe a day later, but if he speaks to me "normally" I respond.

Sometimes when he really can't help himself, he starts throwing things, but he's been a lot better with that in the last 6 months or so.

These outbursts are almost always brought on by his feeling "kicked to the curb" by me - when my kids visit from out of state, a family party that he wants no part of, me seeing a friend after work or even when I spend about an hour at night exercising (in the house, not even at a gym). 

I could give you other examples, but his reactions to everything that upsets him is the same - bad-mouthing my family and calling us all nasty names.

Haha, you are perfectly describing my husband! He behaves exactly like this, and says exactly those things also!   :)on´t know if I should laugh or cry... .would be interesting to see what happened if they met! 

And by they way, he is also demanding sex every day. Very difficult to handle. MANY times I just do it to keep the peace in our house. But of course he notices that also, and then he gets angry because of that. ("it´s like having sex with an old prostitute!" )  It´s like choosing between two evils. Do it without wanting it, and he gets angry. Say no, and he gets angry. Sometimes I see our life as a bizarre reality show... .

[Grey Kitty]

MANY times I just do it to keep the peace in our house. But of course he notices that also, and then he gets angry because of that. ("it´s like having sex with an old prostitute!" )  It´s like choosing between two evils. Do it without wanting it, and he gets angry. Say no, and he gets angry. Sometimes I see our life as a bizarre reality show... .

Proof that doing (or not doing) something because he will get angry is a losing proposition for everybody involved. I see three ways for you to say "yes" in your own mind:

"Yes, I really want sex now."

"Yes, I am OK with sex now, and want to offer that to make you happy, taking one for the team".

"Yes, I will have sex now because I'm afraid of the consequences of you getting angry were I to say no."

That third one will create resentment and get toxic. I strongly recommend you say "no" instead.

The first two are both good and valid. One option to consider is being more clear which "yes" you are offering when he asks. It might help a little... .although he can still be angry any time you have desires and feelings that don't match his.

[toomanyeggshells]

Here's where I'd suggest changing your actions: When he makes the first snippy, passive-aggressive, or critical comment. Consider your options at that point and how they go:

... .

3. End the conversation immediately. "I will not be spoken to that way." works for me. The next words out of his mouth may be as bad or worse, in which case you should leave anyway.

I'm definitely going to do that.  Usually I do sit around for a few minutes and let him berate me before I get up and leave.

4. Look for something to validate. You might try something like this:

":)o you feel like I'm ignoring you or putting you last?"

This is the toughest option. And you need to be feeling good and strong enough to do it from a place of sincerely caring about what he is feeling, not being afraid of his mood, or just plain sick of it.

It might be easier to start even earlier:

He's been in an extra bad mood the last few days so he's brooding and not initiating any conversation with me, except to criticize.

When one of you comes home from work and you see him in this mood, what about saying "How are you feeling? You look kinda grumpy."

Sometimes when he seems extra miserable (which is more than his normal miserable), I do say to him "Is there something on your mind" or "Something going on that you want to talk about?".  He either responses with "no" or something like "yea, you know what's wrong" and then he expects me to guess, but I don't play that game.  My response to that is something like "well, if you feel like having a conversation about something, let me know" and then I go about my business.

Honestly, I feel like I'm trying with him.  I know that I can look myself in the mirror and know that I've done the best I can with him.  My validation skills are lacking for sure, but I'm a little better than I used to be as far as that goes.  My feeling is that he has so much anger and self-hate inside that he will not deal with, there's no getting through to him. 

At this point after 6-1/2 years of living together, I'm just trying to keep the peace without losing myself and my self-respect (which was what got me started with this initial post).

[formflier]

I am 100% positive that sitting there for a few minutes and letting him berate is bad for HIM and for YOU.

I'm not saying immediately walk out, but I do say immediately address it.

"That comment was hurtful to me, how did you intend it?"

Or versions of that.  Make it about you, give him opening to correct.

If he doesn't get the hint, leave.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

  Glad to hear you plan to start enforcing that boundary earlier!

4. Look for something to validate. You might try something like this:

":)o you feel like I'm ignoring you or putting you last?"

This is the toughest option. And you need to be feeling good and strong enough to do it from a place of sincerely caring about what he is feeling, not being afraid of his mood, or just plain sick of it.

It might be easier to start even earlier:

He's been in an extra bad mood the last few days so he's brooding and not initiating any conversation with me, except to criticize.

When one of you comes home from work and you see him in this mood, what about saying "How are you feeling? You look kinda grumpy."

Sometimes when he seems extra miserable (which is more than his normal miserable), I do say to him "Is there something on your mind" or "Something going on that you want to talk about?".  He either responses with "no" or something like "yea, you know what's wrong" and then he expects me to guess, but I don't play that game.  My response to that is something like "well, if you feel like having a conversation about something, let me know" and then I go about my business.

There is a fine line between a validating interest in what he's feeling... .and probing him for information he doesn't feel comfortable sharing.

I suspect he's taking your questions as a probe. I don't think you mean it that way... .but perhaps you just need to back away from that farther, or try something different next time.

... .he has so much anger and self-hate inside... .

I'm sure you are right. Just the same... .the more you take his option of dumping it on you away from him, the more he needs to find other ways of dealing with it... .but it will be a long shift if it happens. [See above on enforcing boundaries earlier like you plan to!]

[Lucky Jim]

These outbursts are almost always brought on by his feeling "kicked to the curb" by me - when my kids visit from out of state, a family party that he wants no part of, me seeing a friend after work or even when I spend about an hour at night exercising (in the house, not even at a gym). 

Hey tme, I experienced the same with my BPDxW.  The problem arises when you start avoiding these activities (a family party), family members (visit from kids), friends (meeting after work) or exercise (at home or at the gym), because you fear an emotional outburst from your pwBPD.  I never through about it in a conscious way, but I slowly stopped doing all these things and seeing friends and family.  It seemed like too much of an ordeal so I often canceled on friends or neglected activities that I like to do.

Although I didn't realize it at the time, this was a dangerous course for me because I became isolated and stopped seeing the people who care about me, and stopped doing the things that bring me joy.  Pretty soon, I was a shadow of my former self.  I forgot who I was for a while there.

Not saying you will go down this path, toomany, but want to warn you before it happens.  You don't want to follow my example, believe me.  It was not fun.

LuckyJim

[toomanyeggshells]

Not saying you will go down this path, toomany, but want to warn you before it happens.  You don't want to follow my example, believe me.  It was not fun.

LuckyJim

Thanks LuckyJim, I definitely won't let that happen 

[SamwizeGamgee]

I have an 11 yo son with drastic emotional control problems.  Although that's a topic for another day, and whole other forum, I have found that I learned to respond by eliminating any blame, anger, or anything that lets him feel anxiety.  I got the ideas from several books.

*(angry lash out by son)*

"I feel unhappy when I hear things like that said to me." or,

"I just heard a lot of angry words, I am sad to hear that."

Back on topic, I have started using essentially the same responses to my wife.  I state either how I felt when she did/said something, or try associating her behaviors and words to what feelings it caused. 

I know I sound like a clinician when I talk to her this way, but, it frames what is, in essence, a conversation with a self-absorbed adult toddler as a conversation with a self-absorbed adult toddler.  It's almost comic and pathetic at the same time.  And effective.

So, if I try to parrot a therapist and remove emotion, I get by.

[toomanyeggshells]

It's almost comic and pathetic at the same time. 

That about describes my whole r/s with uBPDbf    but I like the way you handle it.

[formflier]

So, actually had two sessions yesterday with Psychologist as we got things straight on the current story and hit some highlights of the past.

Also made some short term plans.

Focus is on "keeping the temperature low".  There is a possibility that I may need to be intentional about resisting "super-closeness".  (my words).  The P pointed out that we talked about patterns a few weeks ago.  Reminded me that in the midst of the "healing" that my wife was going through, all the great sex and closeness she wanted me to look for patterns and to be ready for it to not last. 

She explained again that many with things like this can't take intimacy or "really good times" for too long.  They will do something to "push away" or "sabotage".

I think in an effort to point our the gravity of the situation she pointed out that when my wife tracked down and tried to contact "the mother of my love child" (anyone remember the "militant breastfeeding story"... .she took a deep breath and said "She stalked that woman... ."

Anyway, I went to Chiropractor yesterday and had a good swim and stretch.  Good nights sleep.  I am somber today but feel ready to take on the day. 

My wife and I had some decent conversations yesterday.  I made an effort to stay engaged with her but not be all "lovey dovey".

FF

[flourdust]

Good advice from your psychologist. I remember the self-sabotage well. In November, we had one very good week, then out of nowhere, she picked a fight with me because she wanted to remind me she hadn't been picking fights for a week. 

Being cognizant of this is a two-sided coin. On the one hand, being wary about sabotage keeps you from being blindsided and reacting poorly when it happens. On the other hand, being constantly on your guard and keeping your wife at arm's length can further corrode the intimacy of your relationship. I don't have a good solution for this dilemma -- it may be the best that is possible in a relationship with pwBPD.

[formflier]

  I don't have a good solution for this dilemma -- it may be the best that is possible in a relationship with pwBPD.

I don't either.

Honestly... .inside me I would describe my feelings as "apathetic"  sort of a "whatever"... .or "defeatist" view.

There are some feelings of betrayal... .but I honestly can't say that I'm shocked.  I am disappointed.  Goes with the territory.

I was intentional about trying to have some conversations with her to stay engaged.

Zero sexual interest on my part.  My wife is gorgeous.  When she came to bed last night I was polite and a bit warm and initiated sex, even though I really didn't have any interest.  However I was conscious to not attempt to go for some mindblowing experience.

Quick history:  Over the past few weeks I had been making special effort to "take care" of my wife.  Several nights she exclaimed that it may have been the best in her life.  This was coupled with some very good and romantic days. 

P pointed out that I should be aware that times like that will usually come crashing down.

That's tough to think about... .but... .it is reality.

FF