He says he feels "Lost"?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Yesterday he actually apologized to me for being unpleasant in recent weeks. He said he feels "Lost". When I asked him what that meant, he was reluctant to say any more.

I said, "I don't know what that means."

Then he said that because he had moved here over 10 years ago to be with me, he had given up things and that he works so hard "to make me happy" (I'm thinking What the heck?) and he has "no friends" while I'm established here and I have friends and I like to do things here.

So I asked, suppressing my own triggers, ":)o you regret choosing to be here?"

"No," he said, "We built this place (No, I thought, you didn't. You spent one afternoon helping me with insulation and I spent a couple of days with you staining the concrete floor in your studio, but whatever--I showed so much self-restraint ) and that's all we've been doing." (Wow, what a different reality he inhabits, I'm thinking. I did all the landscaping and drip irrigation while he sat indoors and read Buddhist texts, watched sports on TV, movies on Netflix... .)

I asked him what he would do differently, and he objected to the word ":)O" but said he missed "culture" (I'm thinking it's not like we live in some remote outpost--we have all sorts of culture coming through our small town--world class musicians, lots of art exhibits, and major cities are only a few hours away.)

And I thought back to when he lived closer to a major city, before we got together, he had the same complaints about not having friends. Granted, he was closer to the opera, major league games (does that qualify as culture?), there were more foreign films playing in local theaters.

I'm glad I didn't try to refute any of his claims. I realized it was a BPD symptom--the insatiable need that never gets filled. Good luck with that. I've found some distance from his "stuff" but in doing so, I'm starting to feel that I really don't like him very much.

[Cat Familiar]

Yesterday he actually apologized to me for being unpleasant in recent weeks. He said he feels "Lost". When I asked him what that meant, he was reluctant to say any more.

I said, "I don't know what that means."

Then he said that because he had moved here over 10 years ago to be with me, he had given up things and that he works so hard "to make me happy" (I'm thinking What the heck?) and he has "no friends" while I'm established here and I have friends and I like to do things here.

So I asked, suppressing my own triggers, ":)o you regret choosing to be here?"

"No," he said, "We built this place (No, I thought, you didn't. You spent one afternoon helping me with insulation and I spent a couple of days with you staining the concrete floor in your studio, but whatever--I showed so much self-restraint ) and that's all we've been doing." (Wow, what a different reality he inhabits, I'm thinking. I did all the landscaping and drip irrigation while he sat indoors and read Buddhist texts, watched sports on TV, movies on Netflix... .)

I asked him what he would do differently, and he objected to the word ":)O" but said he missed "culture" (I'm thinking it's not like we live in some remote outpost--we have all sorts of culture coming through our small town--world class musicians, lots of art exhibits, and major cities are only a few hours away.)

And I thought back to when he lived closer to a major city, before we got together, he had the same complaints about not having friends. Granted, he was closer to the opera, major league games (does that qualify as culture?), there were more foreign films playing in local theaters.

I'm glad I didn't try to refute any of his claims. I realized it was a BPD symptom--the insatiable need that never gets filled. Good luck with that. I've found some distance from his "stuff" but in doing so, I'm starting to feel that I really don't like him very much.

[Icanteven]

If you figure it out, please let me know.  My wife has said the same thing to me: she feels "lost."  She's going through the defining mental health crisis of her life, is incredibly emotionally dis-regulated, is struggling to even get out of bed in the mornings, is in therapy full-time, feels "lost," but insists that divorcing is the right move at this point.

I keep reminding myself that she is mentally ill.  I try to validate as best I can. But, I don't really know what to do or how to respond to her being "lost" either.

[littletiredone]

You're his wife. It's not your responsibility to make him happy. You're in a relationship together, because you enjoy each others company, right?

If he feels lost, then he himself, should do something about it. He made a committment to you, and part of the maturity of being in a long term relationship, and being married, is having the self awareness to know how to take care of yourself, and to not depend on your SO for everything.

They have problems and issues just like yourself. Detach, and let him work through it on his own. If he gets angry that you're 'ignoring' him, tell him calmly, that he needs to figure this out himself, and that you have boundaries.

There seems to be quite a bit of bitterness on both sides of the fence here. He feels regret for moving, but he has to remember that that was his decision, and that he shouldn't try to make you feel bad for that decision.

When you reacted on the inside, from hearing "We built this place." Did you take it literally? He might have meant 'the whole picture,' as in the atmosphere and the mood, also. You said that he read a lot of buddhist texts. Was he there to support you, when you complained? Maybe he knew that that was 'your thing,' and didn't want to interfere.

You two have been together for over ten years? You two could use a break from each other, not a separation, but a couple of weeks where you just be apart for a while.

Just my two cents.

[Cat Familiar]

If you figure it out, please let me know.  My wife has said the same thing to me: she feels "lost."  She's going through the defining mental health crisis of her life, is incredibly emotionally dis-regulated, is struggling to even get out of bed in the mornings, is in therapy full-time, feels "lost," but insists that divorcing is the right move at this point.

I keep reminding myself that she is mentally ill.  I try to validate as best I can. But, I don't really know what to do or how to respond to her being "lost" either.

He asked me if I ever felt "lost" and the only thing I could come up with was when I was a teenager and had just gotten a car. I lived in Southern California and I used to drive around, trying to get lost. I managed to do it once, driving in East LA and found myself driving on a dirt road and there were chickens. It was as if I suddenly ended up in Mexico. (Good thing I never told my parents--the car would have been taken away from me.)  

But I can't even imagine what he must feel. And the ironic thing is that he seems so self-absorbed. How can one be lost when they're constantly thinking about their own wants and needs?

You're his wife. It's not your responsibility to make him happy. You're in a relationship together, because you enjoy each others company, right?

If he feels lost, then he himself, should do something about it. He made a committment to you, and part of the maturity of being in a long term relationship, and being married, is having the self awareness to know how to take care of yourself, and to not depend on your SO for everything.

They have problems and issues just like yourself. Detach, and let him work through it on his own. If he gets angry that you're 'ignoring' him, tell him calmly, that he needs to figure this out himself, and that you have boundaries.

I'm a recovering codependent and it's easy for me to want to try to make things better for him, but I know it's completely counterproductive. At this point, I'm so tired of hearing about how hard his life is--give me a break! He's got plenty of money, plenty of free time. His dad was an ass. So what! Lots of us grew up in dysfunctional households. To quote the song, "My give a damn's broken." There is a positive there--I can listen dispassionately and not feel that I have to do anything. It's his problem, not mine.

There seems to be quite a bit of bitterness on both sides of the fence here. He feels regret for moving, but he has to remember that that was his decision, and that he shouldn't try to make you feel bad for that decision.

When you reacted on the inside, from hearing "We built this place." Did you take it literally? He might have meant 'the whole picture,' as in the atmosphere and the mood, also. You said that he read a lot of buddhist texts. Was he there to support you, when you complained? Maybe he knew that that was 'your thing,' and didn't want to interfere.

You two have been together for over ten years? You two could use a break from each other, not a separation, but a couple of weeks where you just be apart for a while.

Just my two cents.

I guess what irritates me is that the guy is allergic to hard physical work and feels as though he's above that. But having made choices on light fixtures and fans, he thinks that qualifies him to think of himself as a general contractor. He hasn't a clue how to do even the simplest household repair, while I'm the handyperson around here and have marginal skills in carpentry, plumbing, electrical, etc. I never imagined that as the woman in the relationship, I would do all the "man's work" in addition to all the "woman's work" and I have been quite resentful, but I'm getting over it. Really, if he weren't wealthy and didn't pay the bills, I'd truly ask myself what on earth I was doing with him.

This fall he is taking a two week vacation to England to retrace a couple of formative years he spent there as a child. I'm looking forward to being on my own for a nice stay-cation.

[schwing]

Hi Cat Familiar,

Then he said that because he had moved here over 10 years ago to be with me, he had given up things and that he works so hard "to make me happy" (I'm thinking What the heck?) and he has "no friends" while I'm established here and I have friends and I like to do things here.

One common theme in all the interactions you describe is a blurring of identity, which is a trait of people with BPD (pwBPD).  One observation I've noticed with the pwBPD in my life, is that sometimes they confuse our action with their own.  You can think of this as a side-effect of the "enmeshment" that they experience in the early stage of the relationship; but I think it speaks to a more significant quality of pwBPD: I don't believe they have a fixed identity/personality (or at least it is not as fully developed as non-disordered people).

He says he "works so hard 'to make [you] happy"... .I think he might be describing you.  I imagine the way it "works out" in his head is this: (1) for a time he acknowledges how much effort you put in to at least keep him from being unhappy, if not to make him happy.  (2) then he devalues himself for requiring so much effort.  (3) once that self-devaluation becomes too overwhelming (leading to depression, self-hatred, et al), then he *projects* that quality onto you (or the nears convenient person to project upon). (4) now in his mind, you are the one who requires so much effort to keep happy.

This is a kind of mental gymnastics which occurs.  It is a defense mechanism.

You can think of this "splitting" (black/white) behavior as part of the reason why he might not have a fixed identity/personality.  After all, if you need to "project away" every quality or experience that you perceive as negative at one time or another, then what will have you left after a time?  This is also part of the reason why pwBPD don't seem to learn from experience -- again, if you need to "project away" a painful experience, then from what experience can you learn?

So I asked, suppressing my own triggers, ":)o you regret choosing to be here?"

"No," he said, "We built this place (No, I thought, you didn't. You spent one afternoon helping me with insulation and I spent a couple of days with you staining the concrete floor in your studio, but whatever--I showed so much self-restraint ) and that's all we've been doing." (Wow, what a different reality he inhabits, I'm thinking. I did all the landscaping and drip irrigation while he sat indoors and read Buddhist texts, watched sports on TV, movies on Netflix... .)

This is what he "recalls" when *you* ask him.  I wonder if he recalls yet a very different experience if someone else were to inquire.

I asked him what he would do differently, and he objected to the word ":)O" but said he missed "culture" (I'm thinking it's not like we live in some remote outpost--we have all sorts of culture coming through our small town--world class musicians, lots of art exhibits, and major cities are only a few hours away.)

I think it's not the "culture" he misses, but the access to other people that "culture" would afford him.  If he has other people to play mental gymnastics with, then he would be less likely to encounter a conflict of narrative.  More people = more bins to project away inconvenient thoughts/memories/etc... .

I've found some distance from his "stuff" but in doing so, I'm starting to feel that I really don't like him very much.

I remember feeling exactly that... .that I can "love" someone and yet not "like them very much... ." it's not a fun feeling.  And it doesn't make sense.  There is a cognitive dissonance somewhere therein.

He asked me if I ever felt "lost" and the only thing I could come up with was when I was a teenager and had just gotten a car. I lived in Southern California and I used to drive around, trying to get lost. I managed to do it once, driving in East LA and found myself driving on a dirt road and there were chickens. It was as if I suddenly ended up in Mexico. (Good thing I never told my parents--the car would have been taken away from me.) 

But I can't even imagine what he must feel. And the ironic thing is that he seems so self-absorbed. How can one be lost when they're constantly thinking about their own wants and needs?

I don't believe the "lost" feeling is something a non-disordered person can empathize with... .except perhaps in the aftermath of a BPD relationship... I felt very "lost" but it was temporary.  For pwBPD, that "lost" feeling, I believe, have persisted since their primary abandonment trauma.

The way I understand it is, after that initial trauma, as a consequence of that trauma, their emotional development was arrested.  So where as non-disordered people continue with their emotional development -- we see ourselves as an individual distinct from our guardian/primary parent -- and we can *exist* more or less separate from that primary caregiver, I don't believe pwBPD have developed this.  They still need to be attached to some primary caregiver -- but they are flexible as to who that is.  When we were toddlers, it was very clear that our mother/guardian was the only person we would allow to care for us.

But what if that toddler found him/herself suddenly and permanently abandoned by their primary caregiver?  A child without the maturity to realize they he/she *exists* without mom/dad.  How "lost" would that child feel?  This is perhaps something like the "lost" that pwBPD experience.

This is *also* the need that I believe pwBPD are trying to fill.  They need to get past this emotional developmental hurdle.  But in order to get past a trauma, you must first acknowledge the trauma (i.e. not run away from it) and integrate the trauma.  I think this can only be done by recovery and it is perhaps a herculean effort.  Until one does, a pwBPD cannot feel whole (I believe).

And so pwBPD try to fulfill their need with everything else except what they need.

I'm a recovering codependent and it's easy for me to want to try to make things better for him, but I know it's completely counterproductive. At this point, I'm so tired of hearing about how hard his life is--give me a break! He's got plenty of money, plenty of free time. His dad was an ass. So what! Lots of us grew up in dysfunctional households. To quote the song, "My give a damn's broken." There is a positive there--I can listen dispassionately and not feel that I have to do anything. It's his problem, not mine.

It is his problem.  But I don't think he even has a handle on what his actual problem is.  Moreover, if you push him too close to acknowledging what is actual problem is, he'd probably run away.

I guess what irritates me is that the guy is allergic to hard physical work and feels as though he's above that.

Maybe not "hard physical work" but rather anything that causes him pain.  If they tries and fails, then he devalues himself... .so it is better to no even try.  But by not trying, this will cause him pain eventually.  Lose/lose.

This fall he is taking a two week vacation to England to retrace a couple of formative years he spent there as a child. I'm looking forward to being on my own for a nice stay-cation.

Be wary, if on this vacation he starts exhibiting "new" personality traits. In any case, I do hope you get some rest during your break.

Best wishes, Schwing

[formflier]

I dare you to thank him for the supervisory support while building the place,




Seriously though, I would let a couple days go.  Thank him for the openness.  State his feelings are important to you and propose a trip or some action things to get closer to culture.  Sure, it might just be a token.  But would be a nice gesture.

Thoughts?

FF

[HurtinNW]

Yesterday he actually apologized to me for being unpleasant in recent weeks. He said he feels "Lost". When I asked him what that meant, he was reluctant to say any more.

I said, "I don't know what that means."

Then he said that because he had moved here over 10 years ago to be with me, he had given up things and that he works so hard "to make me happy" (I'm thinking What the heck?) and he has "no friends" while I'm established here and I have friends and I like to do things here.

So I asked, suppressing my own triggers, ":)o you regret choosing to be here?"

"No," he said, "We built this place (No, I thought, you didn't. You spent one afternoon helping me with insulation and I spent a couple of days with you staining the concrete floor in your studio, but whatever--I showed so much self-restraint ) and that's all we've been doing." (Wow, what a different reality he inhabits, I'm thinking. I did all the landscaping and drip irrigation while he sat indoors and read Buddhist texts, watched sports on TV, movies on Netflix... .)

I asked him what he would do differently, and he objected to the word ":)O" but said he missed "culture" (I'm thinking it's not like we live in some remote outpost--we have all sorts of culture coming through our small town--world class musicians, lots of art exhibits, and major cities are only a few hours away.)

And I thought back to when he lived closer to a major city, before we got together, he had the same complaints about not having friends. Granted, he was closer to the opera, major league games (does that qualify as culture?), there were more foreign films playing in local theaters.

I'm glad I didn't try to refute any of his claims. I realized it was a BPD symptom--the insatiable need that never gets filled. Good luck with that. I've found some distance from his "stuff" but in doing so, I'm starting to feel that I really don't like him very much.

For me that starting to feel I didn't like my ex was a real watershed moment. I knew I still loved him, passionately, but I was getting enough clarity to look at him and think, gee, really?

For me, the sort of helpless/blame posturing you describe was a real challenge. Along with historical revision that would make Stalin blush.

If you don't mind me asking, can you be in relationship with someone you don't like? Or, it sounds, don't respect? That sounds really hard. For me the loss of liking really means giving up hope on success with someone. Being in relationship with someone you don't like is by default not a relationship at all.

What hopes and plans for the future would you like with him, that you see as doable?

[flourdust]

If you don't mind me asking, can you be in relationship with someone you don't like? Or, it sounds, don't respect? That sounds really hard. For me the loss of liking really means giving up hope on success with someone. Being in relationship with someone you don't like is by default not a relationship at all.

Yes, this. I reached the point with my wife where I felt more like her live-in case manager than her husband.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks, Schwing, for your very comprehensive and insightful reply. You've unraveled mysteries that I've been struggling with for years.  

One common theme in all the interactions you describe is a blurring of identity, which is a trait of people with BPD (pwBPD).  One observation I've noticed with the pwBPD in my life, is that sometimes they confuse our action with their own.  You can think of this as a side-effect of the "enmeshment" that they experience in the early stage of the relationship; but I think it speaks to a more significant quality of pwBPD: I don't believe they have a fixed identity/personality (or at least it is not as fully developed as non-disordered people).

He has said that he "doesn't feel real" and that's as perplexing to me as feeling "lost" so not having a fixed identity/personality makes sense, but what is confusing to me as a non is that he seems so rigid about certain preferences and things, that I would never have thought he didn't have a strong sense of self. But a friend who has had little interaction with him said that she thought he seems "insecure". Why didn't I pick up on that in the beginning? I guess I like fix-it projects.  

It has annoyed me when he's "taken credit" for things I've done. I understand how couples over time use "we" instead of "I", but there are things that I'm solely responsible for. When there's excess produce from my garden, I give bags of fruit and veggies to friends and acquaintances and I overhear him saying, "Here's some peaches we grew." I've never said anything to him, but the tree grew it, I picked it, I took care of the tree and he had absolutely nothing to do with it. It's a totally insignificant thing, but I've seen this behavior repeated in many different contexts and it made me wonder if he did that in his professional career. That would certainly have made people dislike him.

He says he "works so hard 'to make [you] happy"... .I think he might be describing you.  I imagine the way it "works out" in his head is this: (1) for a time he acknowledges how much effort you put in to at least keep him from being unhappy, if not to make him happy.  (2) then he devalues himself for requiring so much effort.  (3) once that self-devaluation becomes too overwhelming (leading to depression, self-hatred, et al), then he *projects* that quality onto you (or the nears convenient person to project upon). (4) now in his mind, you are the one who requires so much effort to keep happy.

This is a kind of mental gymnastics which occurs.  It is a defense mechanism.

You can think of this "splitting" (black/white) behavior as part of the reason why he might not have a fixed identity/personality.  After all, if you need to "project away" every quality or experience that you perceive as negative at one time or another, then what will have you left after a time?  This is also part of the reason why pwBPD don't seem to learn from experience -- again, if you need to "project away" a painful experience, then from what experience can you learn?

Thanks for that explanation. That is really interesting. And he really doesn't seem to learn from experience, which has always been a mystery to me because he's such an intelligent person. I think of myself as "low maintenance" and I'm generally happy as long as people aren't messing with me. So his statements have caused me to wonder if I'm deluding myself. But I doubt that, based on feedback I get from others. It's made me wonder what exactly he thinks he's doing to "make me happy". The simplest thing to me, and probably the hardest thing he could do, would be to quit drinking so much, but I don't believe that's going to happen and I've given up saying anything about it.

And I do wonder if he would tell other people he regrets moving here. He is very cagey about disclosing anything--probably from years of practicing law. I try to get him to talk about things and he clams up. Surely he wouldn't want to admit to me that he regretted coming here.

I think it's not the "culture" he misses, but the access to other people that "culture" would afford him.  If he has other people to play mental gymnastics with, then he would be less likely to encounter a conflict of narrative.  More people = more bins to project away inconvenient thoughts/memories/etc... .

Yes, he needs a lot of "fresh canvases" to impress. He can be really charming when he wants to. Around here, there are lots of down-to-earth folks who aren't impressed by flash without substance and his esoteric studies of Buddhism and learning the Tibetan language just seem strange rather than impressive.

I remember feeling exactly that... .that I can "love" someone and yet not "like them very much... ." it's not a fun feeling.  And it doesn't make sense.  There is a cognitive dissonance somewhere therein.

It doesn't make sense, particularly when I totally fell in love with him, as opposed to my first BPD husband who attached himself to me like a barnacle. I'm so surprised to, on the one hand, love him, yet on the other hand, feel disrespect for him. However, every now and then he totally hits a home run with me and I feel seen. For example, for my birthday, one of the presents he gave me was a $1000 check for our local animal non-kill animal shelter. That brought tears to my eyes.

I don't believe the "lost" feeling is something a non-disordered person can empathize with... .except perhaps in the aftermath of a BPD relationship... I felt very "lost" but it was temporary.  For pwBPD, that "lost" feeling, I believe, have persisted since their primary abandonment trauma.

The way I understand it is, after that initial trauma, as a consequence of that trauma, their emotional development was arrested.  So where as non-disordered people continue with their emotional development -- we see ourselves as an individual distinct from our guardian/primary parent -- and we can *exist* more or less separate from that primary caregiver, I don't believe pwBPD have developed this.  They still need to be attached to some primary caregiver -- but they are flexible as to who that is.  When we were toddlers, it was very clear that our mother/guardian was the only person we would allow to care for us.

But what if that toddler found him/herself suddenly and permanently abandoned by their primary caregiver?  A child without the maturity to realize they he/she *exists* without mom/dad.  How "lost" would that child feel?  This is perhaps something like the "lost" that pwBPD experience.

This is *also* the need that I believe pwBPD are trying to fill.  They need to get past this emotional developmental hurdle.  But in order to get past a trauma, you must first acknowledge the trauma (i.e. not run away from it) and integrate the trauma.  I think this can only be done by recovery and it is perhaps a herculean effort.  Until one does, a pwBPD cannot feel whole (I believe).

And so pwBPD try to fulfill their need with everything else except what they need.

From what I've seen, he runs away from difficult feelings, or drugs himself with alcohol and prescription drugs, so I don't think he has the desire or ability to pursue healing if it involves confronting painful feelings. I saw that pattern in my mother. She would talk about painful memories that had happened decades earlier and then she'd cut off the conversation. The topic would resurface in future conversations, but still frozen in time with no resolution.

It is his problem.  But I don't think he even has a handle on what his actual problem is.  Moreover, if you push him too close to acknowledging what is actual problem is, he'd probably run away.

Yep, just like my mom's pattern.

Maybe not "hard physical work" but rather anything that causes him pain.  If they tries and fails, then he devalues himself... .so it is better to no even try.  But by not trying, this will cause him pain eventually.  Lose/lose.

Yes, he doesn't want to try anything that he doesn't know how to do. And he doesn't know how to do much.   His last ex-wife criticized him for "not holding a hammer correctly" and I think she was probably right.  

Be wary, if on this vacation he starts exhibiting "new" personality traits. In any case, I do hope you get some rest during your break.

Best wishes, Schwing

I wouldn't at all be surprised if he started speaking with an English accent. He still can do an acceptable one all these years later. Who knows what he will do. I just hope he doesn't get totally drunk and do something incredibly stupid. But there's nothing I can do about that.

Thanks for your enlightening words, Schwing. This has been incredibly helpful and now that I understand more, I'll be less prone to getting irritated by BPD trivia. I'm slowing letting go of years of resentment over behavior that previously seemed mean-spirited and designed to provoke. Now I know better.

[Cat Familiar]

I dare you to thank him for the supervisory support while building the place... .




Seriously though... .I would let a couple days go.  Thank him for the openness.  State his feelings are important to you and propose a trip or some action things to get closer to culture.  Sure... .it might just be a token.  But would be a nice gesture.

Thoughts?

FF

LOL! How I'd love to say that.      He'd never forgive me. 

I will thank him for talking with me. It's so rare that he'll disclose anything. He always thinks it's ammunition that I'll use against him in the future. 

I'll suggest some "culture" around here--maybe a play or some music. Somehow I don't think it will "count" in his mind since it won't be A-list.   

[Cat Familiar]

For me that starting to feel I didn't like my ex was a real watershed moment. I knew I still loved him, passionately, but I was getting enough clarity to look at him and think, gee, really?

For me, the sort of helpless/blame posturing you describe was a real challenge. Along with historical revision that would make Stalin blush.

If you don't mind me asking, can you be in relationship with someone you don't like? Or, it sounds, don't respect? That sounds really hard. For me the loss of liking really means giving up hope on success with someone. Being in relationship with someone you don't like is by default not a relationship at all.

What hopes and plans for the future would you like with him, that you see as doable?

Clarity is a double edged sword, that's for sure. And historical revision--love that. It's astonishing how they can completely change meaning and circumstances. smh      I used to experience this frequently with my BPD mother. My non Dad would occasionally get things wrong, but he was open to hearing an alternative viewpoint--not so much these pwBPD. They are absolutely convinced their version is fact.

I guess I'm a very accepting person on some levels. I do like him at times, but he has definitely lost my respect. Things are getting better, the more I learn here, but never to be the fairytale that so captivated me at the beginning. If it seems too good to be true, it likely is. How many times to I have to repeat this to get this through my thick skull?  

IDK about the future. Actually I'm having a fine time doing the things that I enjoy with my friends. I think I've divested myself of this romantic idea of what marriage should be. I can't think of anyone's marriage that fits that fantasy. And to get to the point where there's harmony and mutual appreciation is a good goal and doesn't seem totally out of reach.

[formflier]

 

It's not so much exactly what you do, as it is part of a healthy process.

Feelings are disclosed, there is a feeling of lost or emptiness, there is an effort by the supportive partner to "fill or find".

Plus, part of this is a challenge to the person to take the feeling and turn to some sort of action to work on that. 

There is nothing wrong with the feeling, but there is something wrong with the feeling and taking no action whatsoever.

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

It's not so much exactly what you do... .as it is part of a healthy process.

Feelings are disclosed... .there is a feeling of lost or emptiness... .there is an effort by the supportive partner to "fill or find".

I agree it's important to share feelings in a healthy relationship. However, I'm not sure about "filling or finding". I've done waaay too much of that in my relationships and it's both bitten me in the butt as well as been unappreciated. It turns into a kind of one-upmanship or one-up, one-down kind of dynamic and the pwBPD feels "less than". Maybe it would work with two nons, but I don't have any experience with that.

Plus, part of this is a challenge to the person to take the feeling and turn to some sort of action to work on that. 

There is nothing wrong with the feeling... .but there is something wrong with the feeling and taking no action whatsoever.

Thoughts?

FF

Yes, the inability to move beyond the feeling is the sticking point. There's little one can do to "help" someone who stubbornly refuses to budge from an uncomfortable feeling. Perhaps they're so used to feeling bad, there's some perverse sense of comfort and security in remaining in that state.

[formflier]

 

Cat,

So, what kind of advice do you think I would write at this point? 

What if you saw a post like this, how would you respond?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

FF,

I guess what I'd say that I need to do is "Validate, validate, validate and not be attached to the outcome."

I watched my mother be "frozen in time" about certain traumatic events in her life. Whenever she recounted the stories, they were almost the same, word for word.

I see that same trait with my husband. He's still traumatized by what he perceives as rejection from his sisters, even though my perspective tells me that they regularly try to reach out to him. I can't fix this. I don't think he's interested in doing the work to fix it. I was briefly hopeful when he did individual therapy for a while, but then he quit seemingly abruptly, saying that both he and his therapist had come to agreement that he was done. (I wonder if his therapist fired him because he wasn't more willing to look within.)

Anyway, my give a damn's busted and I think that's a good thing because I'm no longer so emotionally invested in "helping" him and when I listen to his problems, I'm not triggered the way I used to be.

[byfaith]

ok these last four posts hit a vein with the situation I am in with my wife

There is nothing wrong with the feeling... .but there is something wrong with the feeling and taking no action whatsoever.

I watched my mother be "frozen in time" about certain traumatic events in her life.

my wife has been traumatized by the stroke her son had back in 2004 and his psychotic break in 2011. When I met her I didn't understand how deep it went. She basically does not "function" "frozen in time"  her life right now consists of sleeping and waking odd hours, sitting in a recliner playing a specific game on the internet (obsessive) she will set an alarm to wake up to do certain timed things with the game. She says it occupies her mind and her time. most of time she is in her pajama bottoms she doesn't care much about her personal appearance. She spend her time trying to figure out what to do to make her son "happy" or comfortable. She literally has a timer set to give her son a dip of tobacco every 2.5 hours so she can get him weened off of the stuff. I have to hear him say that ain't freakin' fair man! he stands over her bugging her for a pinch of dip. I understand she doesn't want him to get mouth cancer.

My wife uses joking around and cutting up to cover up issues. I like to have fun and laugh and joke.

like the other day she called me on my way home from work and she said in a joking way "don't hate me because I'm beautiful" it was cute but I said I said "jokingly" back " I don't hate you because you you're beautiful, I have a list of other reasons" she just laughed her guts out

She will do the most minimal to squeak by. it's like she just numbs herself every day. some days she will be more up than others. I would say she spends about 6 -8 hours a day playing that game. I don't say anything to her about it. I have asked her not to spend money playing it. She disregards my request which now means I have to take action to stop that. She spent over $100 playing last month.

It seems the only way I can "connect" with my wife is to sit with her and listen to her and be nice and never get upset or bothered by any of her behavior.

It seems like I am never going to have any kind of productive future with her.

She was supposed to schedule the next meeting with the MC but she has yet to do that and I am not going to push her on it.

I would say she feels "lost" but she never uses those words

[Cat Familiar]

Wow, that's a rough situation, byfaith. It reminds me of my mother's behavior. She would stare out the window for hours, looking at the neighbors' houses and the cars that passed by. Sometimes she would play solitaire and she always had talk radio going--all night long--her "white noise" that helped  her sleep.

It sounds like your wife is so enmeshed with her son that alternative living arrangements for him would be out of the question in her mind. I imagine he gives her life "purpose" and that she truly would be lost without him to nurture.

What future can you imagine for yourself, given these circumstances?

[Cat Familiar]

Current emotional weather report: Painted white. Winds have died down. Temperature warm and pleasant.

One thing I've learned about pwBPD is that the weather is always "unsettled". You can never predict too far into the future based upon past circumstances.

Something different I've discovered in me is that I no longer enjoy the "White"--it's all transitory. But the calm is nice.

[formflier]

FF,

I guess what I'd say that I need to do is "Validate, validate, validate and not be attached to the outcome."

Sure, no argument there.

Your hubby, for whatever reason, shared something that was precious to him, with you.  We don't have to understand exactly how or why it is precious. 

I would suggest you follow up in a couple days and say something like

"Hey, I was thinking about the "culture" (use the appropriate word) that you were talking about the other day.  Would you like to go with me to (xyz cultural thing). "

Here is the thing, just like in push pull dynamics, stay "inside" any swings he may have on this issue.  It's an idea, if he resists, no big deal.  If he "runs with it", again, it's still not a big deal.  Perhaps make it a bit bigger deal but "tug" back in the right way towards "neutral".

Either way, you win, because you are doing something healthy for you.  This is what partners (spouses) do.  Please feel good about your efforts and not his responses. 

Yes, this is focusing on "finding" (the lost) and "filling" (that empty hole) but you are in charge of how much effort to put in.  Again, don't make this a big deal.  It may take him a week or two to process that you are "building a bridge" to him.  Likely he will "push back".  Don't react.

I think it the long run this will nudge him in the right direction.

If he starts asking why, you can give him your view on feelings.  Feelings are and indicator of where effort should be made.  He expressed his, you made effort, , end of story, no big deal, completely normal.

Stay away from saying "fixed" or "better" or in any way describe them as abnormal (even though we know better).

Thoughts?  This is about you as much as it is about him.  Focus on his gesture with the check if you need inspiration.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Your hubby, for whatever reason, shared something that was precious to him... .with you.  We don't have to understand exactly how or why it is precious. 

I would suggest you follow up in a couple days and say something like

"Hey... .I was thinking about the "culture" (use the appropriate word) that you were talking about the other day.  Would you like to go with me to (xyz cultural thing). "

Here is the thing... just like in push pull dynamics, stay "inside" any swings he may have on this issue.  It's an idea, if he resists... .no big deal.  If he "runs with it", again... .it's still not a big deal.  Perhaps make it a bit bigger deal but "tug" back in the right way towards "neutral".

Either way, you win, because you are doing something healthy for you.  This is what partners (spouses) do.  Please feel good about your efforts and not his responses. 

Yes, this is focusing on "finding" (the lost) and "filling" (that empty hole) but you are in charge of how much effort to put in.  Again... .don't make this a big deal.  It may take him a week or two to process that you are "building a bridge" to him.  Likely he will "push back".  Don't react.

I think it the long run this will nudge him in the right direction.

If he starts asking why... .you can give him your view on feelings.  Feelings are and indicator of where effort should be made.  He expressed his, you made effort... .end of story... .no big deal... .completely normal.

Stay away from saying "fixed" or "better" or in any way describe them as abnormal (even though we know better).

Thoughts?  This is about you as much as it is about him.  Focus on his gesture with the check if you need inspiration.

FF

FF, Thanks for the explanation. I was thinking of "finding and filling" as more like "fixing" so that's why I responded the way I did. Yes, I think that's an excellent idea. I'm going to be on the lookout for some things we can do (that might meet his definition of culture) and plan accordingly.

How he will respond to my suggestions is up to him, but like you said, it will signify my willingness to try. He's so damn picky, it may take a while to figure out something that will meet his definition. There's lots out there locally, but he's an elitist. (He's so funny how he turns up his nose at me listening to country music in my truck, yet he likes bluegrass. I really don't get how he thinks one form of Americana music is inherently superior to the other.)

[Grey Kitty]

Schwing's comment that we only know that list feeling in the aftermath of a BPD breakup hit home to me. As I've had that kind of feeling a few times in the year and a half I've been separated.

Also not enjoying being painted white is s good sign of growing up. As it isn't real. Any more than being painted black. It is still invalidating and unsatisfying. You aren't being appreciated for who you actually are.

[formflier]

  It is still invalidating and unsatisfying. 

This was a huge milestone/turning point for me.  When I was unsatisfied with "unwarranted praise".

I remember, back in the day, when it felt good to be put on a pedestal.  I don't look forward to those times now.  I just want to be me.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

It continually amazes me that he really doesn't see who I am, in spite of how I am so outwardly expressive of my identity.

For our tenth anniversary he gave me a gorgeous and very expensive diamond pendant. Very nice and I appreciate the sentiment.

However, that said, anyone who really sees me would realize that I'd much rather use that money to expand my round pen into an arena to work my horses rather than owning a small rock on a chain.

Years ago I worked in a jewelry store and I saw firsthand the crazy and stupid addiction that people can have for gems and precious metals. And as an investment, jewelry is a really bad choice since it yields a fraction of purchase price upon sale.

So I know he's demonstrating his love and commitment in his own way and I give him props for that, but at the same time he doesn't seem to really get who I am.

[Cat Familiar]

Ugh! I was just at Costco and I saw a comparable necklace (and I speak from experience having worked at a jewelry store) and it was one third the price of the one he bought at Tiffanys.

He could have donated the money he overspent to a worthy charity, but that's not him. He is hypnotized by high end brands. And he's not inclined to be generous to charities.

I think it's connected to lack of self worth and this object represents his ability to give his wife something pricey and therefore he should feel good about himself. Except it doesn't work like that. Self esteem is a do it yourself  job, not something that can be purchased.