I think I need a restraining order

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I posted yesterday about serving her the papers, and her reaction -- loudly challenging me in a public place. She was particularly insistent that she owned half the house and so I had no right to change the locks and keep her out. What I was told by my attorney was that I could change the locks at any time, but I couldn't deny her access. So in the letter I wrote to accompany the papers, I told her that she could have access at mutually convenient times.

I had some trepidation about today, too. She was scheduled to take our daughter out for dinner, then drop her off at the house. She texted me during the day to say that she wanted a camp chair from the garage, and I responded that I would leave it outside for her. I thought that was a good sign.

When she arrived, she stood between our daughter and the front door, blocking her access to the house, and began railing at me. I had lied to our daughter about changing the locks; I had cancelled her credit cards; she didn't have any money and couldn't even pay $20 for dinner. Then she let herself in and started talking about how I wasn't allowed to keep her out of the house.

I told her that I wasn't going to talk about this stuff in front of our daughter. As is usually the case, she's incapable of backing down or recognizing that she's harming herself or others with her actions, so this led to a warning that I would call 911, then the call, then the police showing up and talking her into leaving. This is not the first time this has happened, but it's the first since I've served the papers.

The police were very sympathetic to me -- they actually told me I was making good choices to de-escalate the situation and minimize our daughter's exposure to this behavior. They said that they could see the mental illness at work and urged me to move the divorce through quickly. They also told me that they didn't have a legal reason to remove her from the house; they could only try to persuade her.

Should I ask my attorney if I can get a restraining order or some kind of injunction to ban her from the house? I am also tempted to ask about an emergency child custody order, though I'm not sure I need to play that card yet.

[flourdust]

I posted yesterday about serving her the papers, and her reaction -- loudly challenging me in a public place. She was particularly insistent that she owned half the house and so I had no right to change the locks and keep her out. What I was told by my attorney was that I could change the locks at any time, but I couldn't deny her access. So in the letter I wrote to accompany the papers, I told her that she could have access at mutually convenient times.

I had some trepidation about today, too. She was scheduled to take our daughter out for dinner, then drop her off at the house. She texted me during the day to say that she wanted a camp chair from the garage, and I responded that I would leave it outside for her. I thought that was a good sign.

When she arrived, she stood between our daughter and the front door, blocking her access to the house, and began railing at me. I had lied to our daughter about changing the locks; I had cancelled her credit cards; she didn't have any money and couldn't even pay $20 for dinner. Then she let herself in and started talking about how I wasn't allowed to keep her out of the house.

I told her that I wasn't going to talk about this stuff in front of our daughter. As is usually the case, she's incapable of backing down or recognizing that she's harming herself or others with her actions, so this led to a warning that I would call 911, then the call, then the police showing up and talking her into leaving. This is not the first time this has happened, but it's the first since I've served the papers.

The police were very sympathetic to me -- they actually told me I was making good choices to de-escalate the situation and minimize our daughter's exposure to this behavior. They said that they could see the mental illness at work and urged me to move the divorce through quickly. They also told me that they didn't have a legal reason to remove her from the house; they could only try to persuade her.

Should I ask my attorney if I can get a restraining order or some kind of injunction to ban her from the house? I am also tempted to ask about an emergency child custody order, though I'm not sure I need to play that card yet.

[Lilyroze]

Just a quick question. Does she have the right to half the house? Are you going to give to her to live in with your daughter? Are you going to sell? Was she left without money for food? I am only asking as if she does have a brain disorder, she will need some help, and for your daughters sake I hope you do.

I am not up to speed on your whole story though trying to get caught up. I hope all works well, and maybe once you decide on the above and a settlement that will work for her as well. She might go her own way, without too much drama. If not then yes will probably need the order.

[flourdust]

Just a quick question. Does she have the right to half the house? Are you going to give to her to live in with your daughter? Are you going to sell? Was she left without money for food? I am only asking as if she does have a brain disorder, she will need some help, and for your daughters sake I hope you do.

I am not up to speed on your whole story though trying to get caught up. I hope all works well, and maybe once you decide on the above and a settlement that will work for her as well. She might go her own way, without too much drama. If not then yes will probably need the order.

She moved out in February and has an apartment nearby. She is on the mortgage, so she has a right to access to the house, but my attorney told me I could change the locks and provide access at convenient times.

I left her half our money in the bank account, plus I told her in my letter that I would continue to pay a fixed amount (that should cover rent and living expenses) for the next two months while we worked on a deal. My settlement offer includes some alimony and about half our assets.

From what I could tell, she freaked out when I cancelled her AmEx (which we never use), had trouble getting a parking meter to accept her debit card, and concluded I had left her penniless (despite the letter spelling out all of the above details). She has a lot of trouble thinking straight when she goes to this place. It's common for her to start to make up and distort details that aren't true.

[Naughty Nibbler]

HEY FLOURDUST:

You indicated your wife is on the mortgage.  I'm thinking she is on title as well?

Since your wife has an apartment, the situation is a bit better than it could be. The house lock thing could go both ways, in that she might come over and change the locks for her benefit.  I think it depends on the state you live in as to how things are enforced. Out of curiosity I Googled the situation.  I saw a reply from a lawyer in one state that said his client changed the locks and he had to bail his client out of jail, because he got arrested. 

Without a court order, I can't understand the legality of locking a co-owner out of the property (marriage or not).  Can change the locks, but you can't keep them out of the house?  So then, I'm thinking it is okay for her to come over, break a window and gain access when you aren't there.  She would be breaking a window in a home that she co-owns.

You may want to get a court order, regarding access to the home, during the divorce proceedings.  In your current situation, unless you have a restraining order, the police won't remove her from the property.  I'm thinking they won't arrest someone for breaking a window at a home they co-own, unless there is some type of legal order in place.

After reading your other post about the dynamics between your wife and daughter, you might be wise to get a temporary custody order in place until your wife can gain some control regarding how she interacts with your daughter.  So, I guess you have 3 possible court orders to consider:  court order regarding access to the home (during divorce proceedings), possible restraining order and possible custody order.

Although your had already separated, I'm thinking your wife was a bit blind sided by the credit card cancellation.  Logically, she should have anticipated her need to get her own card.  I'm dealing with an uBPB sister right now as co-trustees on our parent trust.  She got a lawyer and now I've had to get a lawyer.  I think I have a little taste of what it's like to have an angry uBPd person on your hands.

Hang in there, you have your plate full. 

[flourdust]

HEY FLOURDUST:

You indicated your wife is on the mortgage.  I'm thinking she is on title as well?

Hi! Yes, that's right.

Since your wife has an apartment, the situation is a bit better than it could be. The house lock thing could go both ways, in that she might come over and change the locks for her benefit.  I think it depends on the state you live in as to how things are enforced. Out of curiosity I Googled the situation.  I saw a reply from a lawyer in one state that said his client changed the locks and he had to bail his client out of jail, because he got arrested.  

Without a court order, I can't understand the legality of locking a co-owner out of the property (marriage or not).  Can change the locks, but you can't keep them out of the house?  So then, I'm thinking it is okay for her to come over, break a window and gain access when you aren't there.  She would be breaking a window in a home that she co-owns.

Probably all true. What my attorney told me is that, as the owner of the house, I'm allowed to change the locks whenever I like, but she also has a right to access. That doesn't mean I have to give her a key; I just can't keep her from accessing the house. So, in my letter, I told her she could have access at "mutually convenient times." I'd guess that, as owner of the house, she can break the window and let herself in, if she wants. I think that would probably not serve her very well if we end up in a court situation where her behavior is being evaluated. Just like having 911 called on her isn't going to serve her well.

I didn't do this be vindictive or controlling. Since we've been separated, she's been using the house when she does after-school child care of D10. We had agreed that she would leave before I came home, but she has BPD ... .so when she's been upset, that agreement goes out the window and she's waited for me at the house to ambush me with accusations, arguments, threats, and so on. All in front of our daughter. I've had to call the police on her before when she refused to leave and initiated a confrontation. So now that we are officially moving toward divorce, I changed the locks to try to more clearly demarcate between our living spaces and remove opportunity for conflict. It's not an airtight approach, of course, but my hope is that it will reduce the frequency of problems.

You may want to get a court order, regarding access to the home, during the divorce proceedings.  In your current situation, unless you have a restraining order, the police won't remove her from the property.  I'm thinking they won't arrest someone for breaking a window at a home they co-own, unless there is some type of legal order in place.

After reading your other post about the dynamics between your wife and daughter, you might be wise to get a temporary custody order in place until your wife can gain some control regarding how she interacts with your daughter.  So, I guess you have 3 possible court orders to consider:  court order regarding access to the home (during divorce proceedings), possible restraining order and possible custody order.

I really appreciate you thinking through the options. I need to explore these with my attorney, to figure out what the best options are -- balancing safety between trying not to ramp up confrontation during what will HOPEFULLY be a productive negotiation of terms. It might be a good idea to have the orders ready to file but hold off unless there is another incident?

Although your had already separated, I'm thinking your wife was a bit blind sided by the credit card cancellation.  Logically, she should have anticipated her need to get her own card.

Yes, she felt blindsided by everything, which is understandable. However, I did my best to provide her with sufficient resources. She has plenty of money in the bank account, which she can access with her debit card or by going to the bank. She is going to be receiving biweekly payments from me that will cover her living expenses, and she's on my insurance and I will cover her medical co-pays during this time, too. She was complaining to me about not having a credit card -- but that's something that she will need to solve herself, and she was going to need to do it anyway, as we are getting divorced! She hasn't taken any action to develop her own independence to date. I understand that this is scary for her -- but it is her problem. She can be as angry at me as she wants. I won't retaliate, and I'm going to continue to act to shield our daughter from her behavior when I judge it to be inappropriate or dangerous.

She does a lot of catastrophizing in her thinking, defaulting to whatever makes her seem the most victimized and helpless, which makes it difficult for her to clearly see that she has options. For a few examples -- when I reminded her of the "mutually convenient times" for access, she said there would be no times, because I would be at work. I don't work 24/7.   And her complaint about the credit card seemed to have been triggered by having trouble getting a parking machine to accept her card, which led her to complain to me (and to the police) that she was coming over to ask for $20 so she could afford to buy dinner for her and D10. (No matter how you unpack it, this story makes no sense. There's a ton of money in her bank account. And she came over AFTER she and D10 had ALREADY bought dinner!)

[Lilyroze]

Yes sounds like you will need to log everything, dot all i's cross all t's and get legal papers specifiying everything. I know you have been doing all that. Wow, seems if they spent half the time they do with chaos and drama they could and would solve so much.

I understand the disorder, but always amazes me they know when not to do the drama, chaos or the certain people not to pull the stunts with. So yes, disorder, illness, but truthfully some is drama and control. No matter how you slice it.

For your daughters sake, keep a log, do as you are doing and get it all done by court order as soon as possible. I agree there is no reason for her to be there invading your space with fighting, then going back to her place for peace. Mine does that and it is crazy.

You are doing so well under circumstances, your daughter has a wonderful Dad.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Probably all true. What my attorney told me is that, as the owner of the house, I'm allowed to change the locks whenever I like, but she also has a right to access. That doesn't mean I have to give her a key

Have you considered that It might be possible for her to call out a locksmith and have the locksmith make a key for the lock?

         

I really appreciate you thinking through the options. I need to explore these with my attorney, to figure out what the best options are -- balancing safety between trying not to ramp up confrontation during what will HOPEFULLY be a productive negotiation of terms. It might be a good idea to have the orders ready to file but hold off unless there is another incident?

The uBPD in my life is my sister.  I did seriously think that I might have to file a restraining order against my sister a few months ago.  It is possible in my state to file it on you own.  I was able to confer with a friend who had filed a RO in the past, on her own.  She gave me a sample copy of it.  Because our parents had both recently passed, I had done a lot of research at the website for our local Superior Court, so I observed there are can be resources available to those who want to initiate court actions without a lawyer.

If you have the money (or don't have the time), best to use a lawyer.  It can help to know about options.  Probably a good idea to document everything, even to the point of thinking it might be excessive.  It can be easy to forget things, especially when your under stress.  A daily diary of events can be therapeutic for you, as well.  Aside from the therapeutic value, it can be valuable to already have writen documentation for any possible court action that may be necessary.  It will be a lot easier than to have to try and remember events/facts, to document  down the road.

I even purchased a small voice recording device, that I intended to use, if needed (to help me with written documentation).  The recorder can be put into a pocket or purse.  States have different laws in regard to recorded conversations, and it can get complicated.  Might want to check with your lawyer, the next time you communicate with him/her.  My logic is that I could use the recorded conversation to help with my written documentation that might be needed.  A logic of "planning for the worst and hoping for the best" can be a good idea. You might not be able to play any of the voice recordings for any court proceeding, but it could be helpful if you don't have time to write down events every day and try to catch up several days down the road.  You could, also, use some recording app or smartphone feature to just make audio notes to yourself.  When you are tired and don't have time, it can be a quick way to capture the day's events.

Your situation sounds very complicated and there can be pros and cons for each possible legal action.  Sometime, it can help to make a little chart of your choices, list the pros and cons for each legal option and perhaps look at things from various prospectives. (various short term and long term effects on all concerned:  Your daughter, you and your wife).  I can see that you are very concerned about your daughter and will likely try to make choices that are in her best interest.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any easy way to navigate through your situation and all the issues.  Realistically, one of you may have to deal with some short-term cons, until the divorce is final.  Sounds like you are doing your best to make things more of a "win, win" situation for all, as opposed to a "Win, Lose" situation. 

[flourdust]

Have you considered that It might be possible for her to call out a locksmith and have the locksmith make a key for the lock?

No, I hadn't specifically considered it. I'm not viewing my approach as a foolproof way to keep her out of the house. I think it will help in reducing opportunities for conflict by making it less likely that she'll be in the house. Hiring a locksmith and breaking windows are pretty aggressive steps, and she tends not to take those kind of premeditated actions.

Also, I've changed the security codes, so if she does change the locks or break in, I'll get a call from the security company and she'll be explaining herself to the police. I think these scenarios are pretty unlikely.

         

If you have the money (or don't have the time), best to use a lawyer.  It can help to know about options.  Probably a good idea to document everything, even to the point of thinking it might be excessive.  It can be easy to forget things, especially when your under stress.  A daily diary of events can be therapeutic for you, as well.  Aside from the therapeutic value, it can be valuable to already have writen documentation for any possible court action that may be necessary.  It will be a lot easier than to have to try and remember events/facts, to document  down the road.

I even purchased a small voice recording device, that I intended to use, if needed (to help me with written documentation).  The recorder can be put into a pocket or purse.  States have different laws in regard to recorded conversations, and it can get complicated.  Might want to check with your lawyer, the next time you communicate with him/her.  My logic is that I could use the recorded conversation to help with my written documentation that might be needed.  A logic of "planning for the worst and hoping for the best" can be a good idea. You might not be able to play any of the voice recordings for any court proceeding, but it could be helpful if you don't have time to write down events every day and try to catch up several days down the road.  You could, also, use some recording app or smartphone feature to just make audio notes to yourself.  When you are tired and don't have time, it can be a quick way to capture the day's events.

It's funny you mention these things. We're on the same page. I just wrote a summary of the events to my attorney to get his thoughts on what sort of actions we might want to take. He was actually anticipating some of this and said he didn't want to serve on a Friday, because he couldn't get any emergency orders through the court over the weekend.

I do have a journal that I've been using to record all of this stuff. And I have a VAR that I have used from time to time to capture some of my wife's behavior. My state allows audio recording when one party is a member of the conversation -- mutual consent is not required.

You just reminded me that when I was talking to the police officers who responded to the 911 call, they asked me if I was recording and said I should keep doing it, and it was a good idea!

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any easy way to navigate through your situation and all the issues.  Realistically, one of you may have to deal with some short-term cons, until the divorce is final.  Sounds like you are doing your best to make things more of a "win, win" situation for all, as opposed to a "Win, Lose" situation. 

Yes, I went into this with the goal of making my approach win-win. But, though it is not my first choice, I am willing to make it win-lose to protect my daughter. I don't want to destroy my wife -- but I've realized I'm prepared to do that if that's the option she leaves me.

[Naughty Nibbler]

FLOURDUST:

         

Yes, I went into this with the goal of making my approach win-win. But, though it is not my first choice, I am willing to make it win-lose to protect my daughter. I don't want to destroy my wife -- but I've realized I'm prepared to do that if that's the option she leaves me.[/SIZE]

Hopefully your wife is able to work through this, with the help of a therapist. 

Best wishes.  Hang in there and keep in touch, as you navigate through these tough times.

[ForeverDad]

Probably all true. What my attorney told me is that, as the owner of the house, I'm allowed to change the locks whenever I like, but she also has a right to access. That doesn't mean I have to give her a key.

Have you considered that it might be possible for her to call out a locksmith and have the locksmith make a key for the lock?

I believe the operative term is possession.  You each have your own residences... .she has residency/possession of her apartment and you have residency/possession of the jointly owned house.  So as co-owner of the house she can have access but not unlimited access.  As a loose comparison, a landlord can't demand access to the tenant's residence whenever he chooses, tenant has possession and there are structures to handle how and when owner's access is permitted.  I think that's the concept behind the statements by your lawyer and the officers.

You are in an in-between status, no temp orders yet, right?  Be sure the paperwork makes clear who has what rights to possession, residency and clear limits on access.  I believe I said this before, her past regular access to babysit after school needs to end at some point.  Your residence needs to have a boundary line that she should not cross.  Most of us find such a boundary not just helpful but necessary.

If you have the money (or don't have the time), best to use a lawyer.  It can help to know about options.  Probably a good idea to document everything, even to the point of thinking it might be excessive.  It can be easy to forget things, especially when your under stress.  A daily diary of events can be therapeutic for you, as well.  Aside from the therapeutic value, it can be valuable to already have written documentation for any possible court action that may be necessary.  It will be a lot easier than to have to try and remember events/facts, to document down the road.

Your stbEx is unlikely to listen to you due to the past close relationship, there's just so much emotional baggage getting in the way of her perceptions. (But you knowing her so well may help counter that typical impasse.)  The benefit of a lawyer is that the lawyer has no emotional relationship with stbEx and so maybe his authority will work better.

I even purchased a small voice recording device, that I intended to use, if needed (to help me with written documentation).  The recorder can be put into a pocket or purse.  States have different laws in regard to recorded conversations, and it can get complicated.  Might want to check with your lawyer, the next time you communicate with him/her.  My logic is that I could use the recorded conversation to help with my written documentation that might be needed.  A logic of "planning for the worst and hoping for the best" can be a good idea. You might not be able to play any of the voice recordings for any court proceeding, but it could be helpful if you don't have time to write down events every day and try to catch up several days down the road.  You could, also, use some recording app or smartphone feature to just make audio notes to yourself.  When you are tired and don't have time, it can be a quick way to capture the day's events.

Your situation sounds very complicated and there can be pros and cons for each possible legal action.  Sometime, it can help to make a little chart of your choices, list the pros and cons for each legal option and perhaps look at things from various perspectives... .

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any easy way to navigate through your situation and all the issues.  Realistically, one of you may have to deal with some short-term cons, until the divorce is final.  Sounds like you are doing your best to make things more of a "win, win" situation for all, as opposed to a "Win, Lose" situation.

I recorded, mainly to prove I didn't do anything wrong, but also that the other was the one misbehaving.  It worked best with officers and other professionals.  Court and lawyers weren't interested, evidently assuming the conflict would eventually fade away as it does in most cases.  Well, our cases are not typical.  Eventually I did play some recordings in court, but it was years later, it demonstrated to the court that even after a half dozen years she just never limited her misbehaviors.

Some states do have limits on recording/notification but (1) it may be aimed more at the professionals such as journalists, etc, and (2) these days there are an endless array of devices that can record.  I've been here a decade and I can probably count on the fingers of one hand over all that time span where a court intervened on members recording, basically lecturing them to stop.  I'm not saying to flaunt the laws but just address your concerns in ways to minimize risk of it becoming an issue.  Paraphrasing one member, David I believe, "I record myself to prove I didn't do anything wrong, for self-protection, I can't help it if the Ex misbehaved while I'm recording."

[flourdust]

You are in an in-between status, no temp orders yet, right?  Be sure the paperwork makes clear who has what rights to possession, residency and clear limits on access.  I believe I said this before, her past regular access to babysit after school needs to end at some point.  Your residence needs to have a boundary line that she should not cross.  Most of us find such a boundary not just helpful but necessary.

Yep, no orders or court filing yet. The documents were prepared so that they can be filed immediately if I decide to take the divorce into the legal process. Where it stands now is that she can

a)  sign the settlement offer as is (unlikely),

b) suggest modifications that I can agree to quickly and then sign it (slightly less unlikely, I think),

c) propose a much different settlement that leads us into a mediation process that results in an agreement we can both sign (maybe... .), or

d) reject it completely or fail to come to agreement in mediation.

Options a through c result in my lawyer filing the written agreement with the court asking for summary judgment on the dissolution and settlement. The documents were prepared so that they can go to a judge immediately. Option d means that we take a slightly modified version of the documents and submit it to start the court-run process for divorce.

However, until we do "d", there's no case in the court system, so no mechanism for requesting temporary orders.

She's meeting with an attorney this week, and her mom is also in town to help out. Her mom's a very grounded and stable person. I think I'll know more soon about which letter she's going to choose.

As for the after-school care, that's somewhat moot now. The school year has ended. D10 has some summer day camp activities, and I'm agreeing on an ad hoc basis to let BPDw pick her up for some afternoons. However, she can't bring her to the house to do after-care.

[Waddams]

Just saying I agree with Forever Dad - she moved out on her own accord and has been gone for 4 months.  She gave up her right to unlimited access by leaving and staying gone.  If I were you, I would not allow her enter the house again.  I would also tell her that the material possessions in the house are subject to distribution as part of the divorce settlement, she will get what she gets via the settlement.  Until there is a settlement agreed to or otherwise ordered, she's not getting another thing from the house.  You're not saying she can't have equitable distribution, she'll get it as part of the divorce settlement.  However, you would be saying she has to respect your boundaries, including your property rights.

The cops say they can't enforce her not coming in, but that might not be entirely true.  Property laws vary, but as FD says, you have possession.  She left, and in doing so, she gave up her rights to access.  She doesn't get to come and go as she pleases.  If she refuses to leave when you order her to, that could likely be trespassing and depending on how the DV laws in your jurisdiction are written, stalking of some kind.  Police generally try not to get involved in divorce situations, it's just good business for them, so they'll tell you they can't do anything without a court order.  I'd recommend contacting a property law/landlord-tenant lawyer and exploring things further as your divorce lawyer might not be the most knowledgeable.  Also, talk to a DV specialist-counselor.  Her behavior could very well stray into stalking/intimidation territory meeting legal thresholds that justify a TPO, but you gotta know the right way to present it to a judge.

Also, don't forget if the cops can't technically order her to leave, they also technically can't order you to let her in or give her the access she wants. 

I'd ask the cops for a police report as documentation of the recent incident, and record further interactions at the house.  If you decide to go for a restraining order, have documentation and be prepared with the right arguments justifying it.