New member intro- seems the end is nigh

[Mr Orange]

Hello,

Just wanted to introduce myself. I have been married for the past 2 years to a woman who I suspect has BPD. We had a very brief courtship. I met her in June of 2013, we were in a relationship within a couple of weeks, we were engaged in December 2013 and were married by April of 2014.

Once we became engaged I started seeing signs that something seemed off, but it wasn't until after the day we were married that the switch flipped. We had a terrible honeymoon, and upon returning from the honeymoon the fights and drama were pretty much constant. Three months into our marriage I came home from work and all of my things were packed. She had a letter to read to me about how I needed to work on things and maybe I could return once I had accepted and worked on the changes needed. I asked where I was supposed to go and she suggested my parents, who fortunately live very close by. I was incredibly shocked and upset, but I took my things and went to my parents to stay. It seemed she panicked after I left, almost as if it was a bluff and she didn't expect I would actually leave. After a few weeks away I decided to return contingent on us attending couples counseling through our church. The first meeting the counselor spent half the session trying to get her to see how wrong it was to do what she did. She made excuses over and over about how she was just trying to send a message, and she wasn't actually kicking me out, she just wanted to get my attention. The counselor continued acknowledging what she was saying but was adamant that she needed to see regardless of her intentions, she was wrong.

We continued counseling for a while but it just went nowhere. Most of the time was monopolized by her, and she was telling lie after lie about how situations played out. The counselor didn't know how to make progress because we couldn't even agree on the basic facts of what happened. In the spring of 2015 she proposed that we try separation because the situation had continued to be toxic. I told her I did not agree with that, and that I felt we made a covenant to each other to work through problems. She said she disagreed and wanted to separate. Her family came into town from New Mexico and we had a meeting with myself, my wife, her parents, and my parents. They wanted to know why we were separating. I explained the situation but she completely changed her tune. She said she suggested separation to see how hard I would fight for her, and that she wanted me to be more firm in stating my commitment to her. It really made no sense. So we stayed together.

The misery continues. No intimacy, affection completely withheld, constant snapping at me over nothing, wild mood swings, constant criticism, false accusations, etc. Fast forward to February 2016. I had finally reached my breaking point. I told her the situation was toxic to a level that my own health and well being was compromised and that we needed a separation as a crisis intervention. I moved in with my parents. Since then I have been met only with anger and resentment from her. It took 3 months for her to agree to a face to face meeting, despite me asserting my desire for the marriage to work out from the day I left. I have been attending counseling, meeting with a mentor pastor from my church, trying to get physically healthy again, and other things to demonstrate a desire to accept responsibility for my wrongs and improve the marriage. As of yesterday there were some texts exchanged where I simply wanted to hear from her that she realizes she is also responsible for the marriage failing, and that she must be an active part of working to repair the brokenness. It was made clear that she doesn't see herself as having hurt me, and that the issues I have brought up to her that I would like to see addressed she has stated are just further examples that I don't like who she is as a person and she can't be with someone who doesn't accept her for who she is. I told her it basically sounds like she doesn't see herself as having responsibility in this process, and appears to be incapable of being accountable for her own actions, and therefore there is nothing further to talk about. So it seems likely this is headed for divorce.

A little bit of background on my wife since she has not been formally diagnosed as BPD. She says she was sexually abused multiple times by a babysitter around age 7. She told her parents and they did not believe her. I know her mother has been very cruel toward her throughout her life. I sort of wonder if her mother is BPD. Her mother was always on her about her weight, and put her on a number of diets from age 12 through college. All of the boyfriends she had in high school were abusive narcissists who used her for sex. In college she dated a man who was something like 18 years older than her, and apparently sexually assaulted her. She says she has been diagnosed with PTSD, and also suffers  regular bouts of depression. She constantly has various ailments, some of which require ER visits where they can't find anything wrong with her. She has very frequent nightmares and some of the dreams she has described are disturbing beyond comprehension. She is terrible with money and regularly overspends. She already had $16,000 in credit card debt when I met her.

Sorry for the length of this, but I wanted to go ahead and get all of the essential information out there. I've lurked on this site for a while, but now that it seems likely we are headed for divorce, I decided to register in hopes of getting some support. I still love her and care for her, and even though she has hurt me so deeply, it breaks my heart to see her constantly sabotaging the good things in her life. It's especially tragic because to me it's not even really her fault. Suffering abuse at such a tender age and having a parent who verbally abuses you and destroys her self worth, I can't imagine how hard that is. But I feel like I've been losing myself trying to save her and I know I can't sacrifice my own sanity because she won't get help. I told her I'd stand by her the whole way and do anything I could to support her, but she has to get some help because I'm not equipped to help her through some of these deep rooted issues.

Thanks for any support you guys can offer.

[C.Stein]

Hello Mr. Orange,

You have been through the wringer, ridden hard and put up wet.  I know how it feels to be in the position where nothing you do is good enough.  The constant anxiety of being in this type of relationship wears you down emotionally and physically until you feel like a hollow shell of who you once were.

Given what you have written I think you made the right choice to put some distance between the two of you.  This will hopefully allow you to gain some perspective and hopefully look at the relationship objectively and make a decision based on rational thought not emotional.

It was made clear that she doesn't see herself as having hurt me, and that the issues I have brought up to her that I would like to see addressed she has stated are just further examples that I don't like who she is as a person and she can't be with someone who doesn't accept her for who she is. I told her it basically sounds like she doesn't see herself as having responsibility in this process, and appears to be incapable of being accountable for her own actions, and therefore there is nothing further to talk about.

This in particular stood out for me personally because I see a lot of similarity here with my ex, so much that I could have written it about her.  I understand how futile it seems when you are faced with this.  What can you do?  Unfortunately there isn't anything you can do here.  She will believe what she needs to believe, true or not, for her own emotional survival.  If she can realize she needs help and pursues that for her own benefit then things might change for the better ... .or not.  

Her mental health is not your responsibility, married or not.  What you can do is take care of yourself, which it sounds like you are doing.  It will be hard to support her in any capacity if you aren't healthy.  

With respect to the relationship, how are your Boundary and Validation skills?

[Mr Orange]

Stein,

Thank you very much for your thoughtful reply. Some very helpful words you have offered there.

In regards to validation and boundaries, I think I have improved quite a bit over the past year or so. Once I started doing some research trying to figure out what the hell is going on, I came across BPD and ended up reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells". That's when it really clicked for me, and of course I started understanding the illness more and what I can do to help. The one in person meeting we had since our separation she continually deflected what I was asking of her. In the past I would have gotten frustrated and made comments that would've taken the conversation to a full on argument. But in this case I remained calm and just tried rewording what I was asking in as man different ways as I could, while acknowledging her statements each time. It resulted in a much more productive conversation. Also, I enforced a boundary in that I said I wanted to meet on neutral ground like a coffee shop, rather than her apartment as she had suggested. This felt more safe for me, and less likely to invite yet another toxic fight. So I have learned, but I still have a long way to go learning the things I can do.

I do have a question. I'm obviously new and so I don't know exactly how this works. Would it be alright to copy and paste my intro post in the "detaching from the wounds of a failed BPD relationship board" to get some feedback over there? I just wanna make sure I don't violate rules for the boards.

Thanks again for your support and feedback.

Cheers,

Orange

[C.Stein]

In regards to validation and boundaries, I think I have improved quite a bit over the past year or so. Once I started doing some research trying to figure out what the hell is going on, I came across BPD and ended up reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells". That's when it really clicked for me, and of course I started understanding the illness more and what I can do to help. The one in person meeting we had since our separation she continually deflected what I was asking of her. In the past I would have gotten frustrated and made comments that would've taken the conversation to a full on argument. But in this case I remained calm and just tried rewording what I was asking in as man different ways as I could, while acknowledging her statements each time. It resulted in a much more productive conversation. Also, I enforced a boundary in that I said I wanted to meet on neutral ground like a coffee shop, rather than her apartment as she had suggested. This felt more safe for me, and less likely to invite yet another toxic fight. So I have learned, but I still have a long way to go learning the things I can do.

Very good and excellent recognition and effort so far.  I wish I had make the connection when I was still in my relationship.  You did a good job at keeping your last contact with her from going toxic.  I know how hard it is to not get drawn into the chaos that is BPD.  

Sharing your experiences and practicing your skills by helping others on this forum will help tremendously with your own efforts in the relationship.

I do have a question. I'm obviously new and so I don't know exactly how this works. Would it be alright to copy and paste my intro post in the "detaching from the wounds of a failed BPD relationship board" to get some feedback over there? I just wanna make sure I don't violate rules for the boards.

I don't think double posting is against the rules.  I have done it once or twice because I was interested in the feedback I would get from the different boards.  Keep in mind though, the feedback you will get on the detaching board will most likely be RUN!

If you want I can move this thread to the Deciding or Conflicted board if you feel like you are on the fence with respect to staying or leaving.

[livednlearned]

Hi Mr. Orange,

Being on the brink of divorce is an awful feeling. I'm glad you reached out and shared your story.

BPD is like a belief system (one that is disturbed) where she has no alternate with which to compare. There is only the one reality and it's pretty bad, the things people do to her. People violated her boundaries in atrocious ways and she is in a type of permanent survival mode, constantly expecting breaches in boundaries, constantly violating other people's boundaries. People with BPD tend to have zero boundaries because the process of developing them was impeded.

Her relationship skills are bad. You are improving yours.

Do you think you can recover from the past hurts?

[Mr Orange]

Stein,

Yes, that would be great if you would move my post to the "deciding or conflicted" board. While I feel at this point it is more likely to end in divorce, that final decision has not been made. In the state I live in, you cannot divorce until you have been separated for at least 12 months. For us that will not be until February. Thanks again for your assistance with this.

livednlearned,

I do think I can recover from past hurts. I have been willing this whole time to consider remaining married, BUT I will not remain in a relationship with her if she is unwilling to address her issues in therapy. From what I've learned about BPD, it seems they are extremely reluctant to go to therapy with the understanding that they have issues that require intensive work on their part to have a chance at healthy relationships. Perhaps it is part of their thinking that acknowledging such flaws makes them wholly an unworthy and defective person (black and white thinking) and would crush them completely. We're still at the point where she can't even acknowledge that our relationship being in this crisis state has anything to do with her issues, and is unwilling to do work on her part. She expects me to move mountains, while she on the other hand is unwilling to budge. So I have so problem forgiving, but I must see effort on her part to work on her issues. I refuse to go back into living with her with the only changes being on my part because it will simply involve living out more years of misery where my needs/feelings/wellbeing goes completely ignored.

Cheers,

Orange

[C.Stein]

I do think I can recover from past hurts. I have been willing this whole time to consider remaining married, BUT I will not remain in a relationship with her if she is unwilling to address her issues in therapy. From what I've learned about BPD, it seems they are extremely reluctant to go to therapy with the understanding that they have issues that require intensive work on their part to have a chance at healthy relationships. Perhaps it is part of their thinking that acknowledging such flaws makes them wholly an unworthy and defective person (black and white thinking) and would crush them completely. We're still at the point where she can't even acknowledge that our relationship being in this crisis state has anything to do with her issues, and is unwilling to do work on her part. She expects me to move mountains, while she on the other hand is unwilling to budge. So I have so problem forgiving, but I must see effort on her part to work on her issues. I refuse to go back into living with her with the only changes being on my part because it will simply involve living out more years of misery where my needs/feelings/wellbeing goes completely ignored.

These are very realistic and understandable expectations.  A relationship is a partnership of two, ideally each giving equally in the relationship.  When it become heavily skewed in one direction it essentially ceases to be a relationship. 

Do you see a way to help her find the courage to seek help?  She can't be led to the water but she can be shown the way to it. 

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Mr. Orange,

I wanted to commend you on your clarity. So many people who are dealing with similar circumstances somehow indulge in magical thinking, presuming that they can change their BPD partner and have that miraculous relationship that they glimpsed for a moment in time.

It's painful to acknowledge the truth, but you seem very open and willing to see things clearly and assess the future probabilities of the relationship you want and deserve. And with sexual abuse in her past and likely BPD in her present, things don't look promising.

You, and everyone here struggling with relationships with pwBPD, deserve a loving, honest, equal relationship with a partner who is willing to do the work necessary. Unfortunately most who are entwined with a pwBPD will never have that and will settle for far less.

I commend you for being willing to look at your options and if you see fit, to leave the relationship. Too many of us cling needlessly to a doomed relationship for years.

[livednlearned]

We're still at the point where she can't even acknowledge that our relationship being in this crisis state has anything to do with her issues, and is unwilling to do work on her part. She expects me to move mountains, while she on the other hand is unwilling to budge.

There is a saying around here: Do you want to be right, or do you want to get along?

Often, our own relationship skills get seriously tested in BPD relationships. More often, what skills we have are pulled down to the lowest common denominator, which can be pretty low for someone who struggles with BPD.

The challenge is to raise both partners up with new skills. This is not easy, and it does take effort. The benefits are that these skills can be applied to all relationships, so it's a win for you whether or not the relationship stabilizes.

Right now, it feels like your way, her way. There is a middle way, which is easier when you are focused on self care.

Is this something you want to work on? She might not admit anything is ever wrong with her. You might eventually not be triggered by that.

[Mr Orange]

Cat,

Thank you very much for your encouraging words. I've only been on this site for a couple of day, but it has already been an incredibly helpful outlet. Posts such as yours help reaffirm that while this is tremendously difficult every single day, I am ultimately learning to value my needs, which may mean losing a relationship because I'm unwilling to be treated in these sorts of ways. Through my own individual counseling I have grown a lot in this area; acknowledging the issues on my end that contributed to the marriage getting to this state. I think I very much had the rescuer/knight in shining armor thing going on and my self worth was too much tied to being loved by a romantic partner. Growing in these ways on a personal level has really helped me take stock of the situation, and step out of the FOG that I was engulfed by for so long.

Stein,

It's interesting because there have been a couple of isolated moments of clarity and introspection by her during the course of our marriage. I remember talking about a cousin of mine who is either bipolar or BPD and explaining to my wife how she is. My wife actually had a brief moment where she said aloud, "Wow, that kinda sounds like me in some ways". I thought that was maybe going to be this profound lightbulb moment for her, but when I asked her to talk further about her feelings on this, she clammed up and eventually wanted to take it back. But it does seem like there are fleeting moments of self awareness. I recall another day where she said "I know I'm really difficult to love". But these moments have been so few and far between, and they have almost always been immediately forgotten or deleted from her memory.

We were in couples counseling with a pastoral counselor. I thought going together might be a way to not only address my issues, but help her feel like she's not being painted as the sole offender. However, even though my Christian faith is very much a part of who I am, I have lost a lot of faith in Christian counselors. I suspect they are used to dealing with garden variety marital problems and ill equipped to deal with much more complex psychological issues such as personality disorders the way a psychiatrist might be able to. I have found a LMFT who is a Christian, but also embraces "secular" psychiatric theory and treatment approaches such as cognitive behavioral therapy, among others. Her website states she subscribes to the notion that biblical counseling has its place, but there are real issues like mental illness that require more than simply praying. My plan is to start seeing her individually and see if my wife will later join. This therapist specializes in personality disorders, child sex abuse, and dialectical behavior therapy, so I feel like she would be much more equipped to help us if help is possible for my wife to accept. That's pretty much my last plan to salvage this. If that doesn't work or my wife doesn't have some profound revelation that she does in fact need to be accountable for her part in our marriage failing, then I see this as the end of the road.

livenlearned,

You make a very interesting point. That is something I will give some serious thought and introspection to. I'm switching counselors from a christian marriage counselor who only has a masters of divinity in family counseling, to a licensed marriage and family therapist who also is a christian, but has much experience with mental illness. This is something I would like to bring up with her once we meet so I can have a professional turn the mirror on me and have me evaluate and consider points such as the one you have brought up. I'll be honest, at the moment I'm feeling pretty crushed and having a hard time considering something like "Can I accept that she will never take responsibility for her wrongs and be okay with that?" Just being honest. Thanks for your input though.

Cheers,

Orange

Orange

[livednlearned]

I'll be honest, at the moment I'm feeling pretty crushed and having a hard time considering something like "Can I accept that she will never take responsibility for her wrongs and be okay with that?" Just being honest. Thanks for your input though.

Your honesty, and taking stock of what you can and cannot handle is about 80 percent of the hard work, imo. It takes a lot of strength to not be emotionally injured in a BPD relationship. Repair and recover is almost nonexistent so we have to be particularly fierce about shoring up our boundaries, and for some, that can be a first-time experience. Many here come from homes where there were no boundaries.

Staying or going really does come down to values and emotional resilience. I had to leave my marriage to learn from it. I walked away with detaching skills/healing and then experienced emerging BPD traits in my son. Since I was not about to walk away from him, it forced me to confront the skills and empathy needed to figure out where the heck these disturbed belief systems come from and how to intervene and get things back on course. The journey through that dark place was sprinkled with light from people here and my own excellent T who coached me, sometimes sentence by sentence, as I navigated struggles with my son.

Looking back, I do wish I had known about BPD when I was married instead of discovering it during the divorce. You have the opportunity to evaluate while you are in the decision stage and that is a good thing. 

We do the best we can with the strength we have at that moment, no more, no less.

[C.Stein]

Stein,

It's interesting because there have been a couple of isolated moments of clarity and introspection by her during the course of our marriage. I remember talking about a cousin of mine who is either bipolar or BPD and explaining to my wife how she is. My wife actually had a brief moment where she said aloud, "Wow, that kinda sounds like me in some ways". I thought that was maybe going to be this profound lightbulb moment for her, but when I asked her to talk further about her feelings on this, she clammed up and eventually wanted to take it back. But it does seem like there are fleeting moments of self awareness. I recall another day where she said "I know I'm really difficult to love". But these moments have been so few and far between, and they have almost always been immediately forgotten or deleted from her memory.

My ex also had moments of clarity where she was self-aware, knowing there isn't something right about her with the ability to see how her behavior impacts both herself and others.  However like your wife, those moments were few and far between.  My problem was I placed too much hope in those moments even after that self-awareness vaporized as quickly as it had appeared.  She is "aware" but cannot live with the awareness so back she goes into maladaptive and destructive coping mechanisms she has used her entire life.  

We were in couples counseling with a pastoral counselor. I thought going together might be a way to not only address my issues, but help her feel like she's not being painted as the sole offender. However, even though my Christian faith is very much a part of who I am, I have lost a lot of faith in Christian counselors. I suspect they are used to dealing with garden variety marital problems and ill equipped to deal with much more complex psychological issues such as personality disorders the way a psychiatrist might be able to. I have found a LMFT who is a Christian, but also embraces "secular" psychiatric theory and treatment approaches such as cognitive behavioral therapy, among others. Her website states she subscribes to the notion that biblical counseling has its place, but there are real issues like mental illness that require more than simply praying. My plan is to start seeing her individually and see if my wife will later join. This therapist specializes in personality disorders, child sex abuse, and dialectical behavior therapy, so I feel like she would be much more equipped to help us if help is possible for my wife to accept. That's pretty much my last plan to salvage this. If that doesn't work or my wife doesn't have some profound revelation that she does in fact need to be accountable for her part in our marriage failing, then I see this as the end of the road.

IMO this is a great plan and it is the only one I can see that might show her the way to the water.  I don't think you can reasonably do anything more than this.  It is up to her to decide to walk the path laid out in front of her.  Great insight on your part!  

[Lucky Jim]

I feel like I've been losing myself trying to save her and I know I can't sacrifice my own sanity because she won't get help. I told her I'd stand by her the whole way and do anything I could to support her, but she has to get some help because I'm not equipped to help her through some of these deep rooted issues.

Well put, Orange.  Welcome!  I was married to a pwBPD for 16 years and am quite familiar with the scenario you describe.  You are way ahead of me because I had never heard of BPD before a T mentioned it to me about 9 years into our marriage.  Plus, my BPDxW and I had two kids, who I thought deserved a stabilizing influence to balance out the emotional turmoil of my BPDxW.  As a result, I nearly destroyed myself physically, emotionally and financially by staying in a toxic r/s.  You are right, I think, that you can't sacrifice your health and sanity for your W.  It's her task to take responsibility for her own issues, not yours.

I have been in your shoes, my friend, so let me know if you have an particular questions.

LuckyJim