Trying to make sense of last night and I cannot do it.

[Matt]

The rejection sensitivity is what is driving all the accusations and more importantly, defenses. You have suggested threatening rejection (and used it - I won't have a baby with you) as a way to manage her.  This is like throwing gasoline on a candle in your living room to put it out. You need to be going the other way - building trust. She needs to know you have her back even when she is off center.  This is complicated thing to do - but just get the idea in your mind for now. Her feeling of a lack of trust will drive the end of the relationship. Building trust is not about doing as she says - its about understanding how to build trust and doing that.

I know what I said was wrong. The problem was I was so upset by what she did and said I didnt care in that moment. Thats a hard thing to change but I can do it. I know I can. I feel like that's similar to telling someone not to hit back when someone is punching you in the face. You know at that time that the smartest thing to do is leave the situation but something takes over and you start thinking how messed up it is that someone wants to hurt you that bad for no good reason and you fight back. Ughh self control. Ok I can do this.

Think about how to avoid getting in those situations in the first place.

Looking back, were there signals that - if you had noticed them - would have told you, "Trouble is coming!"?

And are there strategies you can use, to reduce the risk?

As an example... .some men in difficult relationships keep an overnight bag in their trunk - a few clothes, etc. - and also keep their wallet and keys on them all the time... .so if you need to leave the house you can do that without delay.

[Skip]

You know at that time that the smartest thing to do is leave the situation but something takes over and you start thinking how messed up it is that someone wants to hurt you that bad for no good reason and you fight back. Ughh self control. Ok I can do this.

She has this issue, 10-fold.  If you can't be the "wisemind" there is going to be domestic violence.  If no domestic violence is your value/boundary then you need to be able to manage your side of the street and maybe even a little of hers.

Last time my partner slammed a door, I gave her no reaction at all.  The next day I asked if it made her feel better. She said yes.I then asked if she she would please hire a handiman to repair it. She did. Nothing else was said.  No door were slammed after that point.  I didn't give any fuel to the fire.

Think about how to avoid getting in those situations in the first place.

I learned what would set her off or more importantly, when she was likely to be set off and I managed myself accordingly.  When we hosted dinner parties, anything could set her off in the 12 hours before. I learned to get my "assignment" from her the day before and complete it early and volunteer to do things she wanted that were out of the house.

[jrharvey]

I really do understand the importance of setting boundaries. I also understand that I can only change my actions. The biggest thing for me is Im confused about what the best thing for me to do to set and hold a boundary when she crosses them.

Let's talk just about boundaries... .super important and for me very difficult.

A boundary isn't a way to control the other person's behavior (though in time your boundaries might influence her behavior).

A boundary is a way for you to reduce the amount of chaos her behavior causes in your life.

Here's an example from my own experience:

I travel a lot, and my wife used to call me in the evening, and start in on me - long rants.  It upset me, kept me from working in the evening, and hurt my sleep.

Over time I learned to abruptly change the subject - "How are the kids?" - as a way to tell her, "I'm done listening to your rant."  Then if that didn't work - click!  I just hung up the phone.

My boundary was - and I never stated this to her, just put it into effect - "If she starts in on me I will hang up the phone."

Now I'm not saying that's the right boundary for you to set - your situation is your own and you have to figure out what boundaries will work for you.

Some examples might be, "If she gets violent or threatens me I will leave the house for 24 hours.";  "If she keeps me from sleeping I will lock myself in the other bedroom and sleep there.";  "If she yells at me I will leave the room." etc.  What you will do.

You can tell her your boundaries... .or just put them into action.  It's important to be consistent, and it helps to decide in advance what your boundary is... .so you're prepared.

Won't fix her.

Will help you.

When you started doing this did it change her actions? Did she learn to stop "Laying in to you" at night? I have actually started hanging up on her when she "lays in to me" sometimes. For example if I am at work and I dont answer a text within five minutes she will call freaking out. She can go 4 hours without texting me back but if I go 5 minutes she freaks out accusing me of sneaking off with other girls in the office or whatever other crazy things she can think of. Sometimes she will call and go on and on and on for an hour and talk about all these horrible things she is thinking about and asking me 20 questions about why I didnt respond back in 5 minutes WHILE I AM AT WORK! I shouldn't even have to explain at all. Ive just started hangin up and going back to work. Sometimes she gives me the silent treatment the rest of the night or goes out with her friends when I do that. It makes me angry when she does that because I dont deserve it but the more she does it the more I just dont care.

The hard part about setting a boundary is she will not only punish me but she will punish me 10x worse than what I did to set my boundary.

That day she got so mad at me for not texting her when I left my office she retaliated by not coming home and then going out to a party and getting drunk while texting me that she was going to spend the night with some other guy because I hurt her.

[jrharvey]

That day she got so mad at me for not texting her when I left my office she retaliated by not coming home and then going out to a party and getting drunk while texting me that she was going to spend the night with some other guy because I hurt her.

Wow. I just read this. I actually cannot believe this happened. What the heck am I doing? Why did I put up with this? I would laugh if someone else typed this. I always thought I was such a strong person but I put up with this? I know why. I believed her hype about me being such a horrible person I actually thought I was doing something wrong but now I realize how manipulated and destructive she was. Sheesh. I cant even believe I allowed that. Wow.

[Matt]

That day she got so mad at me for not texting her when I left my office she retaliated by not coming home and then going out to a party and getting drunk while texting me that she was going to spend the night with some other guy because I hurt her.

Wow. I just read this. I actually cannot believe this happened. What the heck am I doing? Why did I put up with this? I would laugh if someone else typed this. I always thought I was such a strong person but I put up with this? I know why. I believed her hype about me being such a horrible person I actually thought I was doing something wrong but now I realize how manipulated and destructive she was. Sheesh. I cant even believe I allowed that. Wow.

I think we all have that moment when you look back and wonder how and why I put up with this... .

[Matt]

I really do understand the importance of setting boundaries. I also understand that I can only change my actions. The biggest thing for me is Im confused about what the best thing for me to do to set and hold a boundary when she crosses them.

Let's talk just about boundaries... .super important and for me very difficult.

A boundary isn't a way to control the other person's behavior (though in time your boundaries might influence her behavior).

A boundary is a way for you to reduce the amount of chaos her behavior causes in your life.

Here's an example from my own experience:

I travel a lot, and my wife used to call me in the evening, and start in on me - long rants.  It upset me, kept me from working in the evening, and hurt my sleep.

Over time I learned to abruptly change the subject - "How are the kids?" - as a way to tell her, "I'm done listening to your rant."  Then if that didn't work - click!  I just hung up the phone.

My boundary was - and I never stated this to her, just put it into effect - "If she starts in on me I will hang up the phone."

Now I'm not saying that's the right boundary for you to set - your situation is your own and you have to figure out what boundaries will work for you.

Some examples might be, "If she gets violent or threatens me I will leave the house for 24 hours.";  "If she keeps me from sleeping I will lock myself in the other bedroom and sleep there.";  "If she yells at me I will leave the room." etc.  What you will do.

You can tell her your boundaries... .or just put them into action.  It's important to be consistent, and it helps to decide in advance what your boundary is... .so you're prepared.

Won't fix her.

Will help you.

When you started doing this did it change her actions? Did she learn to stop "Laying in to you" at night?

The answer is yes - she very quickly learned and quit doing that (except for maybe once a year).

But you can't go into it with the idea of changing her behavior.

You have to structure the boundary so it works for you either way.

For example, if she had kept calling me and ranting... .and each time she did it I hung up and then didn't answer if she called back... .even though her behavior hadn't changed I still would be better off.

It's worth thinking about how to set your boundary so it will work OK for you whether or not she changes her behavior.

[jrharvey]

The answer is yes - she very quickly learned and quit doing that (except for maybe once a year).

But you can't go into it with the idea of changing her behavior.

You have to structure the boundary so it works for you either way.

For example, if she had kept calling me and ranting... .and each time she did it I hung up and then didn't answer if she called back... .even though her behavior hadn't changed I still would be better off.

It's worth thinking about how to set your boundary so it will work OK for you whether or not she changes her behavior.

I think your right. Your absolutely right. This was very helpful. Thank you.

[Skip]

But you can't go into it with the idea of changing her behavior.

You have to structure the boundary so it works for you either way.

For example, if she had kept calling me and ranting... .and each time she did it I hung up and then didn't answer if she called back... .even though her behavior hadn't changed I still would be better off.

It's worth thinking about how to set your boundary so it will work OK for you whether or not she changes her behavior.

I agree with this in part and disagree in part.

Clear values (and boundaries), conditioning, and structure is the best way to provide a constructive environment.

Yes, you can hang up and not answer, and when you get caught short, you might have to do that in extreme cases, but it is not an effective long term relationship tool. You can walk out of the house when she get angry and stay in a hotel but it is not an effective long term relationship tool.

Clear values (and boundaries), conditioning, and structure.

Clear values (and boundaries). Read our boundaries article - it lays out a good map for cooperatively negotiating how to handle things in time of calm.  The cooperatively negotiating part is really important.

Conditioning You need to learn how to respond to her impulses in a way that conditions her to be more constructive.  The first part is taking the defensiveness away - that triggers more aggression. The second part is engage in the drama of the moment at a constructive level (wow, I can understand why you are upset - I'll come home right t 6 PM and we can talk about this right away - let me get off the line so I can get done here).

Structure Read her actions - like all the comments about you seeing other women and realize that she is saying "you're not making me feel like the highest priority in your life". Put in some structure that makes her feel that... .

[Matt]

But you can't go into it with the idea of changing her behavior.

You have to structure the boundary so it works for you either way.

For example, if she had kept calling me and ranting... .and each time she did it I hung up and then didn't answer if she called back... .even though her behavior hadn't changed I still would be better off.

It's worth thinking about how to set your boundary so it will work OK for you whether or not she changes her behavior.

I agree with this in part and disagree in part.

Clear values (and boundaries), conditioning, and structure is the best way to provide a constructive environment.

Yes, you can hang up and not answer, and when you get caught short, you might have to do that in extreme cases, but it is not an effective long term relationship tool. You can walk out of the house when she get angry and stay in a hotel but it is not an effective long term relationship tool.

Clear values (and boundaries), conditioning, and structure.

Clear values (and boundaries). Read our boundaries article - it lays out a good map for cooperatively negotiating how to handle things in time of calm.  The cooperatively negotiating part is really important.

Conditioning You need to learn how to respond to her impulses in a way that conditions her to be more constructive.  The first part is taking the defensiveness away - that triggers more aggression. The second part is engage in the drama of the moment at a constructive level (wow, I can understand why you are upset - I'll come home right t 6 PM and we can talk about this right away - let me get off the line so I can get done here).

Structure Read her actions - like all the comments about you seeing other women and realize that she is saying "you're not making me feel like the highest priority in your life". Put in some structure that makes her feel that... .

May depend largely on whether your top priority right now is improving the relationship... .or whether your top priority right now is keeping yourself OK and able to function well... .or whether your top priority right now is staying out of jail.

For me, the answer was 1) stay out of jail;  2) keep myself OK;  3) improve the relationship.

Might be different for each of us though... .

[Skip]

For me, the answer was 1) stay out of jail;  2) keep myself OK;  3) improve the relationship.

Of course a valid point.

I think the clear values (and boundaries), conditioning, and structure can help all three. But, yes, if you take the relationship off the table, then there are other options.

There are three choices here:

1. Leave

2. Dissect the problem and apply tools to try to correct it (if it works, great, if not, reassess).

3. Hand wring. Feel powerless. Lather, rinse and repeat.

Got a preference?

I asked this a while back. JR needs to get out if three and either go with #2 (which is what this board is about), go with #1 (go to the Detaching Board) or pick #3 and go the the Conflicted Board.

Here (this board) we talk about skills.  

We can relocate this thread to Conflicted.

JR - what do you want?

[jrharvey]

For me, the answer was 1) stay out of jail;  2) keep myself OK;  3) improve the relationship.

Of course a valid point.

I think the clear values (and boundaries), conditioning, and structure can help all three. But, yes, if you take the relationship off the table, then there are other options.

There are three choices here:

1. Leave

2. Dissect the problem and apply tools to try to correct it (if it works, great, if not, reassess).

3. Hand wring. Feel powerless. Lather, rinse and repeat.

Got a preference?

I asked this a while back. JR needs to get out if three and either go with #2 (which is what this board is about), go with #1 (go to the Detaching Board) or pick #3 and go the the Conflicted Board.

Here (this board) we talk about skills.  

We can relocate this thread to Conflicted.

JR - what do you want?

I would like #2 if there really is anything that will help. Looking back at things I know I took her lashing out personally and probably escalated the problems with my own reactions. Maybe my reactions were natural for normal people when being attacked but If I can learn how to "Condition" her to not act in such crazy, violent and hurtful ways I would like to carry on a relationship. She is the perfect girlfriend when she isnt either insanely jealous of these worries in her head that dont exist or raging mad for the smallest things. Her reactions are warranted if I do something horrible like cheat or steal her money or do something bad to her family. But I guess thats part of BPD is having over the top reactions to what should be minor annoyances.

[Skip]

Looking back at things I know I took her lashing out personally and probably escalated the problems with my own reactions. Maybe my reactions were natural for normal people when being attacked but ... .

OK, forgetting about her for a minute.

Your reaction was inappropriate.

She got pissy and slammed a door. You escalated to physically intimidation (screaming at close range), emotional attack (I don't want to have a child with you), and then physical attack.

You can't be this man to your live-in girlfriend.  You can be this man to me or some other guy being obnoxious in your space, but not her.

If your boundary is no violence - that means no violence - zero.

Walk the talk. Can you intellectually buy into this?

[jrharvey]

Looking back at things I know I took her lashing out personally and probably escalated the problems with my own reactions. Maybe my reactions were natural for normal people when being attacked but ... .

OK, forgetting about her for a minute.

Your reaction was inappropriate.

She got pissy and slammed a door. You escalated to physically intimidation (screaming at close range), emotional attack (I don't want to have a child with you), and then physical attack.

You can't be this man to your live-in girlfriend.  You can be this man to me or some other guy being obnoxious in your space, but not her.

If your boundary is no violence - that means no violence - zero.

Walk the talk.

Absolutely. I agree. Thats what i want and thats what I know I need to do.

[Skip]

Great.

Matt makes a really important point.  You need insulate yourself from a false domestic abuse charge.  If she calls the cops, even if you did nothing, you go to jail.  She can't "drop the charges", the DA will go after you with or without her.

You need to anticipate fights before they happen.  Might be good to open a thread here, raise the issues you fight about (couples tend to go round and round on the same stuff) and talk about the signs of when a fight is coming.

Might also be good to go on the law board and talk about a male domestic violence safety plan. What do do when all else fails and confrontation erupts. And how can you create breadcrumbs that you can call in when you need them. "Yes there was two-way altercation back in June 2016. I went to to see my pastor and we had long discussion on my role - he gave me his number to call when I'm frustrated and that's what I do".

[Matt]

She can't "drop the charges", the DA will go after you with or without her.

This is a side issue - don't mean to "hijack" the discussion - but it can be a very important point.

On TV, when someone accuses someone else of a crime, they may later "decide not to press charges".

In real life - at least where I live - that's baloney.

The accuser does not decide whether to prosecute - the prosecutor does.  And in domestic violence cases, women very often change their minds about what happened, or say they don't want him to be prosecuted... .but prosecutors almost always push forward anyway.  The reason is, they don't want women to be intimidated into changing their story.  They figure, if he was violent with her, then he committed a crime, and what she says later doesn't change that.

So... .if in your mind you think, "If I make another mistake, I won't go to jail, because she won't press charges."... .quit watching "Law And Order" and work on not making another mistake!

[BestVersionOfMe]

Not to redirect Matt and Skip's awesome advice, but don't forget the tools here, primarily validation, to diffuse a lot of arguments as well.  BPD is not a mental disorder it is a thinking disorder.  The information comes in, gets jumbled up, then strange stuff comes out the other way.  You have to be on your toes with what you say and what you do.  The severe abandonment issues with she thinking your cheating is a story that is playing in the background at all times with her.  This is the reality of your current situation.  Why?  Part of it is her disordered thinking, but part of it is her response to some of your own abusive behaviors.  In the past you have used threats and manipulation to get the outcome you wanted.  She hasn't forgotten obviously so for this dynamic to improve it will take some time of you taking care of your own sh*t.  Besides you need to take care of your own stuff with or without her right?

[Matt]

Really good point about understanding her thought process better.  I found that very, very difficult.

Here's an example related to her thinking you are cheating on her... .

My wife used to say to me, "I know there's something going on between you and Such-And-Such."  Basically any woman I worked with, or knew some other way, or even met, if my wife found out, she would think I was cheating on her.

Later, I remembered how often she used those same words - "I know there's something going on... ." - and I realized she was right:  She did know it.

It wasn't true, but she knew it.

The reason is called - if I remember right - "emotional reasoning".

My wife had experienced a strong feeling of abandonment when she was young - her mother died when she was little, and nobody told her how.  And her father sent her to live with distant relatives - in another state - and of a different race.  She must have felt completely abandoned by both her parents.

So... .as an adult, she feared abandonment and often felt abandoned, or felt that she might be abandoned... .and those fears must come from somewhere right?  Her spider-sense was telling her, "You're going to be abandoned!" - so that must mean I was cheating on her.

She was reasoning - I think - from her intense feelings about abandonment... .toward the knowledge that someone would be abandoning her... .to the perception that I must be cheating on her.  It's backwards reasoning - usually we first observe something, and then draw conclusions from that, and then experience feelings.  People with personality disorders sometimes use "emotional reasoning" - backwards from the emotion to the conclusion to the perception - without realizing they are doing that.

So... .it may be that your girlfriend's spider-sense is telling her something and she doesn't realize that she's reasoning backwards... .

[waverider]

This backward reasoning is across the board for pwBPD impulsive action or conclusion first then afterwards mold the reasoning to justify this action or conclusion. Rather than thinking things through an coming up with conclusions. It leads to elastic thinking

It applies to much of their thought processes on many issues

[Matt]

This backward reasoning is across the board for pwBPD impulsive action or conclusion first then afterwards mold the reasoning to justify this action or conclusion. Rather than thinking things through an coming up with conclusions. It leads to elastic thinking

It applies to much of their thought processes on many issues

Well this specific pattern I describe, is very clear to me now... .looking back.

But I have to say that when I tried really hard to understand her thinking, I usually just made myself crazy.

It's very worthwhile learning about BPD and ways to interact that make things better (or don't make them worse).

It's kind of risky to invest too much of yourself in trying to truly understand someone's thinking who has BPD.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Feelings = reality.  My wife will say things like, "I hate when we are rushed to go here or there."  The reality is that we have plenty of time yet she "feels" rushed therefore to her we literally are rushed.  Or she might say "You make me feel stupid."  The reality is that I don't think she is stupid, but for some of the bizarre things she does she feels stupid so she will redirect that feeling, projection, on to someone else.  In your particular case she feels that you are cheating on her therefore you are.  It is very real to her even though you know it not to be the case.  Have you ever asked open-ended questions so that she can arrive at her own conclusions?  That might be something you could try.

[waverider]

It's kind of risky to invest too much of yourself in trying to truly understand someone's thinking who has BPD.

Agree with this you can become too absorbed, and forget to give yourself time to have a life. Researching it can be addictive especially when you think the golden solution is to be found in the next book/article/post.

Apart from activity here I no longer read any books or articles on it.

[Matt]

Apart from activity here I no longer read any books or articles on it.

Well I think initially - when you're first learning about BPD - there are a lot of good resources, including here on this forum, and "Stop Walking On Eggshells".  (The co-author of "Eggshells", Randi Kreger, founded this site by the way.)

Lots to learn about how you can deal with someone with BPD... .

... .but we have to also accept that we'll probably never understand it completely... .

[jrharvey]

... .but we have to also accept that we'll probably never understand it completely... .

Yeah thats how I feel fight now. This morning my GF had to work and I didnt. She looked sad and I asked... ."Babe why do you look so sad?" She said "I will be very busy at work and I wont be able to text you today. I wont be able to tell you to be good or know your doing the right thing." Even though we have dated a year and a half Im still surprised by stuff like this. I said... .Im going to be good no matter what. Even if you dont text me Im going to be good because thats what a relationship is about. Thats what it means to have a boyfriend. Then she sighed and said "I hope".

When she says good she means not cheat on her. I will never understand what that feels like. A fear of abandonment that strong must make you unable to even function. I feel sad for her if she really is constantly thinking about that. It just doesnt and probably never will make sense to me that she believes if she can just text me enough and tell me enough to be good then I wont cheat but if she cannot keep contact with me then I will just go off and cheat. Thats rough.

[BestVersionOfMe]

... .but we have to also accept that we'll probably never understand it completely... .

Yeah thats how I feel fight now.

You seem utterly confused and frustrated at the moment which I find myself feeling as well, so sorry bro!  Even though I am going through exact opposite, wife is distant and withdrawn, it must be tough for you nonetheless.  You validated her fears and that is all you can do.  The fact that she added a "I hope" is just her own issue, nothing else you can do.  Can you separate yourself from that comment and relax knowing that you did what you could do and the chips are going to fall as they may?

[jrharvey]

Can you separate yourself from that comment and relax knowing that you did what you could do and the chips are going to fall as they may?

Yes I can. I am not taking it personally. Actually just in the last week since I joined this board I feel 100x better. I have come to realize that its not me but its in fact her issue and also a disorder. I know Im not doing anything to make her feel this way. That helps me not take it personally and just brush it off.

I also have a game plan when she goes on about something that doesnt make sense. Im not going to argue about it or try to convince her of anything anymore because I know I will make more progress banging my head against the wall. Last night we were watching a movie and she said something crazy. We BOTH have instagram and I only post pictures of food we cook together, pics of me and her and pics of my car which I have fixed up quite a bit. I use to have my profile private so you had to request friendship but she didnt like that. She wanted it open so everyone (all the girls) could see that she is my girlfriend. So I made it public. Then last night I had a notification that some random girl started following me who I never saw before. She starts asking "how do you know her". "Why is she following you?". I told her I dont know her and I dont know why she started following me. Its just what people do on instagram when they like the pictures you keep showing. She knows this because guys follow her too. She kept asking questions and the same questions over and over and over again. "Why did she follow YOU"? Why? Why? Why? I tried to explain a little more and I felt like she was getting frustrated and if I continued she would start a fight. I got my keys and walked out of the house for a bit to just push away all that talk.

You cannot reason with her. Logic doesn't make sense to her. Common sense doesn't make sense. I dont know what happened but in my time away I guess she thought about it and understood when I got back.

I have tried to learn S-E-T communication but I found it difficult to use in this situation. She didnt really explain a worry. She just asked a bunch of questions but I knew deep inside there was a worry. I could use SET if she told me how she felt but this was different. I think I did the best thing I could at that moment. It worked at least. Any other suggestions?

It is extremely tough because I am not use to it. Its just a different way of reacting to people that I have never had to learn before. Now I am thinking about bigger picture things though that are a separate topic from this thread. The big questions is even if I 100% learn how to cope with her and we are happy forever other people in my life will not know. My family and any future children we have. How can they learn to cope with this or even accept it? Its a big and hard question. I really dont want my mom and my future wife fighting over something not worth fighting about.

[waverider]

When she says good she means not cheat on her. I will never understand what that feels like. A fear of abandonment that strong must make you unable to even function. I feel sad for her if she really is constantly thinking about that. It just doesnt and probably never will make sense to me that she believes if she can just text me enough and tell me enough to be good then I wont cheat but if she cannot keep contact with me then I will just go off and cheat. Thats rough.

This is where it shows similarity to OCD, like someone who cant trust that they have turned a tap off and has to keep going back to check. No amount of reassurance can convince them otherwise.

My wife was initially diagnosed as OCD for years, it was only because the object of her obsessions and insecurities kept shifting that caused me to look towards BPD. OCD tends to have entrenched obsessions that dont shift too much.

Reading about other disorders can often help to place BPD into perspective. The difference between sociopath and psychopath for example has close parallels with low vs high functioning BPD.  Often BPD is comorbid (concurrent) with other disorders, everything is not text book BPD and it is easy to overlook other influences

[ICantFixHer]

All I will add is that I, too, suffered physical abuse at the hands of my ex pwBPD girlfriend but I had the common sense to call the police on HER, twice. Both times she was arrested and charged with a misdemeanor and forced to attend anger management and after the second arrest, community service.

Like you, I reacted; if she started punching me I'd throw her to the floor like a skunk and stand over her threatening to crush her windpipe with my boot.

She totally could have had me arrested over those incidents and I am just plain lucky she never had the grounding to call the cops.

To this day (well, a few weeks ago) she still threatens to post some of her arrest pictures on Facebook and "out" me as an abuser.

When she threatens me like that, I tell her I will post one of the 100s of videos I took of her screaming at me and throwing tantrums over the years.

She pipes down. It's not an effective thing to do -- return a threat with a threat -- but it works. It shuts the skunk up.

The ridiculousness of it all will never, ever go away, in my opinion. I left and it's like a new life has been given to me. All the best to you.

[Matt]

Now I am thinking about bigger picture things though that are a separate topic from this thread. The big questions is even if I 100% learn how to cope with her and we are happy forever other people in my life will not know. My family and any future children we have. How can they learn to cope with this or even accept it? Its a big and hard question. I really dont want my mom and my future wife fighting over something not worth fighting about.

It may be helpful to frame those questions and start a new thread to discuss them.

That thread could be here on this board, or on another board at this site if it would be a better fit.

A couple of comments about this paragraph:

* While you are going through this drama, it may be best to double-check that you are taking personal responsibility for birth control.  Quite a few of us here - including me! - have been told, "I'm on the pill.", and later found out our difficult relationship had become even more complicated.

* Quite a few of us here have been caught between our BPD significant other, and our "family of origin" - parents and siblings.  It's usually a good idea to find ways to maintain and strengthen those lifelong relationships.

[Turkish]

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