My D14 tells me to stop calling police at visitation/ if not- wn't get prnt time

[Sluggo]

How have others handled this.  I am still on the initial order while waiting for the custody evaluation

When I receive information that my wife will not give me the time that is ordered- especially happens on holidays - I will have the police meet me at the house to make sure the order is enforced.  

This upsets my D14 and D12 very much.  But if I don't, I might not even get to see the kids or if I do it will be on wife's terms not the courts.  

Sometimes that doesn't even work as the older kids will refuse to leave the house.  The younger kids will say yes, but my D9, D12, D14 have refused to leave and the police say that can't force them out of the house.  

We have filed 3 motions for contempt in a order only 4 months old.  They have been continued each time by wife's and her council getting a continuance.  

We had always had a great relationship but wife accuses me of sexual addictions, affairs, problems with underage girls (there has never, ever, ever been anything remotely close to that).  Also, I allowed my wife of 17 years to put me down so much in front of the kids.  They do not have any respect for me --  or maybe just have much more fear of her.  

Should I keep calling police when wife tells me she is not going to follow order?

[Thunderstruck]

That's a tough one. Bringing the cops escalates conflict. But without it you don't get visitation? Yuck. Does your L have a recommendation? I'm leaning towards not using the police for right now until you can get a contempt hearing.

This really needs to get in front of a judge. You might need to start brainstorming other ways to help ease transitions. We do ours at a police station. DH is not allowed to get out of the car. uBPDbm is not allowed to approach DH's car.

But, even these go awry (we were supposed to have visitation last Friday and uBPDbm prevented it. See, holiday drama here too).

The smoothest transition is when either us or uBPDbm just pick SD11 up from school/aftercare directly.

[ForeverDad]

Thunderstruck had excellent alternatives, get the exchanges away from your homes, do it at or near the police station.  Some have even used restaurants or supermarket parking lots when the tensions reduced a little.  I agree that you have no choice but to have the police on standby, maybe they could wait down the street?

As for the police being unwilling to enforce an order, that's what most of us experienced.  I recall the police trying to pressure us or guilt us into compliance, but the most they did was make a report while saying, "Work it out in court."

My story... .My ex was high conflict and we almost never picked up from the other's residence.  (A half decade later, yes, back then, no way.)  And emotionally it's hard for everyone, you're out of your home environment, stbEx is in her home environment and the kids can be guilted, whether subtly or overtly, that they're abandoning or betraying mother.

At first we exchanged at the sheriff's office, that way it was neither parent's home turf.  Still, the exchanges were very tense and almost anything would trigger my Ex.  Another benefit was that either of us could march up to the deputy's desk and ask for a report, especially for No Shows.

Those were for the times our son wasn't at school or in daycare or aftercare.  I really liked those times since I didn't meet my Ex.  For my weekends I'd pick up the kid from school or aftercare and drop them off at school the next Monday morning.  KISS - Keep It So Simple!

Sadly, courts get used to the tense emotions and posturing in the early days of a divorce.  They figure it will quickly fade once the parents and kids adjust to the new circumstances.  However, with out high conflict cases that doesn't happen and too often the court seem unprepared for that or reluctant to admit we're being actively sabotaged and obstructed.

Try to be the one in court who has Solutions to the Problems.  StbEx will probably Deny, Posture, Blame, Blame-Shift, Excuse, Distract, etc.  A common excuse is, "The kids don't want to go."  Well, a member here recently related that their judge said, "The kids don't decide what they want, the parents do and they have to follow the order."

Oh, and my Ex too made horrendous allegations too, despite us previously spending 8 years together in religious volunteer work!  It was as though they believed making endless allegations would get the professionals to believe it, they just had to make us appear worse than them.  Be aware.  Beware.

[Boss302]

How have others handled this.  I am still on the initial order while waiting for the custody evaluation

When I receive information that my wife will not give me the time that is ordered- especially happens on holidays - I will have the police meet me at the house to make sure the order is enforced.  

This upsets my D14 and D12 very much.  But if I don't, I might not even get to see the kids or if I do it will be on wife's terms not the courts.  

Sometimes that doesn't even work as the older kids will refuse to leave the house.  The younger kids will say yes, but my D9, D12, D14 have refused to leave and the police say that can't force them out of the house.  

We have filed 3 motions for contempt in a order only 4 months old.  They have been continued each time by wife's and her council getting a continuance.  

We had always had a great relationship but wife accuses me of sexual addictions, affairs, problems with underage girls (there has never, ever, ever been anything remotely close to that).  Also, I allowed my wife of 17 years to put me down so much in front of the kids.  They do not have any respect for me --  or maybe just have much more fear of her.  

Should I keep calling police when wife tells me she is not going to follow order?

I'll play devil's advocate: keep bringing the cops. Absolutely. If your kids ask, then explain to them that your time with them is so important that it's worth getting the law involved. That's what you're willing to do for them. Even if the kids don't come along with you, you tried. Make sure they know you'll try every time, because BPD means those kids will be rejected, by dear old mommy and when that happens, they'll need a parent they can count on. When you fight for them that means that they know that parent will be you.

Collect the police reports and if need be, have the police officers involved testify. Have them record any fits and outbursts from the ex. You need to show everyone - the kids, your ex and the courts - that you're willing to fight every every single time, no matter what. Yes, that creates conflict... .but don't kid yourself, there's going to be conflict here no matter what. And what you'll eventually find with a BPD ex is that she WILL screw the kids over, just like she did to you. Count on it. When she's called on that by your kids, know what she'll do? She'll paint them black, just she probably did with you. And when she does that, your kids will remember what YOU did. So will the ex... .and so will her lawyer. Make it clear you aren't giving so much as one damn inch unless the law tells you to. Be flexible but insist on your rights. Never give up. But never be angry when you get rejected. Tell that to a therapist instead.

By all means, if doing alternative dropoffs at neutral sites works, then do it. Like I said, be flexible. But you need to take the position that your rights as a father are sacred, and they are inviolable, and you'll use every means at your disposal to make sure they're upheld.

Hang in there. I fought like a demon for my kids and they came to appreciate it.

[Boss302]

Hi Sluggo,

What you are describing here is the beginnings of parental alienation.  Are your kids receiving any kind of therapy?  If not I would make that a priority.  If the wife disagrees with your request take it to court.  Your kids will need a neutral person that they can talk to that can also give them coping skills when dealing with the conflict and help negotiating issues surrounding their mother.  Be sure to look for someone with experience with BPD.

With luck once the custody evaluation starts hopefully your stbxw will be on her best behavior and you might have an easier time.  But until then I would continue to show up with the police or not to pick up your kids if the kids don't want to go fine but continue to show them you are their dad and you have the desire to see them.

Please read about parental alienation and high conflict divorce... .

Divorce Poison New and Updated Edition: How to Protect Your Family from Bad-mouthing and Brainwashing Paperback by Dr. Richard A. Warshak

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger

Check out Dr. Craig Childress on YouTube

Also check out the resources on the co-parenting page.

You might want to connect with a therapist for yourself too for support.  

Keep posting as needed the members here have a lot of ideas, strategies, and experience to draw from.

Take Care,
Panda39
(Boss' significant other... .forgot to log in as myself  )





 

[Sluggo]

Thank you for all the input.  Glad to see that I am not the lone ranger... .although when I am leaving the house by myself it is easy to get down and feel sorry for myself. 

Yes I hope the case will be scheduled this week.  This first emergency hearing is for summer parenting time as the initial order was 'quiet' on summer.  However, our state guidelines are very clear that it is  50 50. 

Yes I am almost to the end of Divorce Poison as I saw it suggested on this site.  To be honest, that book is very depressing.  It really hits home the fact that the Parental alienation is not a short lived event.  In some cases that it can last years with the kids well into their adulthood.  It is at this time I feel like folding and going back to the abuse to have that contact with the kids.  However my T, siblings, and a couple close friends encourage me to hang on tight.  It is not like it would be better if I went there.  Matter of fact intellectually I know that it would be stupid to do and things would be worse, however emotionally I am feeling the tearing of the flesh of my children from me emotionally with this parental alienation. 

Thanks for all your input and encouragement.  It is nice to see that there is something on the other side of this hill but just hoping I don't slip down back to where I was (as it seems like that would be the easiest thing to do).

I think of the little story of what happens to 3 items:  Egg, carrot, and coffee bean- when that are put in boiling water ( ie the very stressfull times of our lives). 

Egg:  will get stone hard
Carrot: will get soft and easily mashed
Coffee bean:  will change and change the water around him.  He change the environment around him in a positive way, talk about it to others, etc when he is under pressure

My tendancy in our marriage has been the carrot.

Silly little story but yes it has helped to have those important people to go to in this and reveal my pain to others.  But easy to fall back to being a carrot in times like these. 

 

[justaboutdone]

Boss302 provides some excellent resources to increase our knowledge about PAS.  The youtube with Dr. Childress nails PAS!  I have read the references Boss302 provides but another excellent read is by Dr Baker.  See link below.  I like the book by Dr Baker because among other things, she provides ways to reduce the effect of PAS.  She also has national recognition for being a preeminent leader in PAS.

www.amyjlbaker.com/books/co-parenting-with-a-toxic-ex.html

[Sluggo]

Boss302 provides some excellent resources to increase our knowledge about PAS.  The youtube with Dr. Childress nails PAS!  I have read the references Boss302 provides but another excellent read is by Dr Baker.  See link below.  I like the book by Dr Baker because among other things, she provides ways to reduce the effect of PAS.  She also has national recognition for being a preeminent leader in PAS.

www.amyjlbaker.com/books/co-parenting-with-a-toxic-ex.html

thank you just bought the book.  Also Panda/Boss thank you for the Childress info too!

[ForeverDad]

Decades ago Dr. Gardiner was criticized and discredited for his approach to PA attempts and PAS since it didn't mesh with accepted thought.  Dr. Childress takes a different approach that is more acceptable to the experts and their models, that it's a form of child abuse.  We're not the experts, we just live in that world, so probably it's okay to conclude, "whatever works".  And that probably means using Dr. Childress' methodology over Dr. Gardiner's.

I found that the temporary orders seldom get changed.  My ex was actively obstructing me during our 2 year separation and divorce process.  IT was almost as though the court tried to put as little on the record as possible.  Looking back, I'm sure it expected us parents to let got the posturing and emotions and work together.  Unfortunately, the problem wasn't hurt feeling and heightened emotions, it was the acting-out patterns of one or more PDs.  Within a year the court's social worker's report recommended I move up from alternate weekends to equal time.  Nothing changed in the order.  Five months later the main judge and lawyers met privately to discuss the custody evaluator's initial report which contained "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can... .Mother should immediately lose her temporary custody."  Nothing changed, just on to the next step in the divorce process.  Final decree did have me with equal time, but I suspect my lawyer didn't fight very hard to get the temp order changed mid-process.  After all, it was only "temporary".

[david]

Hope you have police reports for each time you were refused the kids. That would help in court.
If, in court , it is brought up that the kids don't want the police involved then simply explain that you could think of no other way and that you are perplexed, or some thing similar, as to why kids would not want to see their parent. Have examples of things you have done with the kids that they enjoyed. Shows you are involved with them and not the evil monster their mom is making you out to be.

My ex had the school convinced I was a monster. I continued making myself present at school functions and eventually ex played her hand and exposed her true self.

Ex also found a therapist for the kids and had her convinced I was the problem. I figured that out at the first visit. The therapist figured it out at the second visit since both times the boys and I interacted fine together. From the way she talked I realized the meetings the therapist had with ex and the kids was much different.

[Sluggo]

Boss302 provides some excellent resources to increase our knowledge about PAS.  The youtube with Dr. Childress nails PAS!  I have read the references Boss302 provides but another excellent read is by Dr Baker.  See link below.  I like the book by Dr Baker because among other things, she provides ways to reduce the effect of PAS.  She also has national recognition for being a preeminent leader in PAS.

www.amyjlbaker.com/books/co-parenting-with-a-toxic-ex.html

thank you just bought the book.  Also Panda/Boss thank you for the Childress info too!

 
Coming back to this thread and want to say thank you!  The book on Childress-  Foundations  -  is excellent!