And he ran away...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

DSS18 picked him up in the middle of the night and told DH this morning that he was "harboring" DSS15.  Then BPD mom texted DH at noon that he was in her house and how did he want to handle it.  He said he would come over and pick him up.  Of course, DSS15 refused to come, even after the police talked with him, and they would not do anything else because it was a "civil matter."

Mom kept saying her hands were tied.  She also came with DSS18 to DH's car and told him that what the judge said was "crazy &*^ %#$" and this mess was all his fault (in front of DSS18).  DSS18 said he got DSS15 because he wanted him happy, and after DH told him that was a felony, DSS18 said it was less of a felony because he let DH know before 24 hours.

So... .we will let our attorney know.  What a mess.

[sanemom]

DSS18 picked him up in the middle of the night and told DH this morning that he was "harboring" DSS15.  Then BPD mom texted DH at noon that he was in her house and how did he want to handle it.  He said he would come over and pick him up.  Of course, DSS15 refused to come, even after the police talked with him, and they would not do anything else because it was a "civil matter."

Mom kept saying her hands were tied.  She also came with DSS18 to DH's car and told him that what the judge said was "crazy &*^ %#$" and this mess was all his fault (in front of DSS18).  DSS18 said he got DSS15 because he wanted him happy, and after DH told him that was a felony, DSS18 said it was less of a felony because he let DH know before 24 hours.

So... .we will let our attorney know.  What a mess.

[Panda39]

WOW! Not even 24 hours.

I'm so sorry   I don't even know what to say.  I guess we'll see if the judge is true to his word.  If mom goes to jail what happens with the older kids?

I agree what a mess.

Panda39

[Deb]

Don't know if this would help, but... .What if DH told her that since the judge ordered her to jail if she had contact, he would be willing to give her , say 24 hours, to convince SS15 to come back to your house? With my dBPD sister, this would work as she is terrifed of being locked up. Just my brainstorming attempt. I really do think she needs to go to jail so that she learns consequences. But I realize that the kids would freak.

[sanemom]

WOW! Not even 24 hours.

I'm so sorry   I don't even know what to say.  I guess we'll see if the judge is true to his word.  If mom goes to jail what happens with the older kids?

I agree what a mess.

Panda39

DH gave her until tomorrow to convince DSS15 to return.  We will see.

Talked with our attorney--he seems to think that the judge will very likely incarcerate her (no idea how long).  All of the kids will be furious with us, I am sure, for doing that to their mom.  The other option is calling him in as a runaway, but that will just as likely escalate them, and our attorney thinks the judge needs to know what is going on.

I think we need a TRO against the older kids as well... .at least until things calm down.  This has been going on for so long that it is just a mess, and we are going to look evil no matter what we do.  I guess we should be used to it.

Meanwhile, BPD mom is getting all kinds of sympathy since her evil ex husband took her kid away from her and convinced the judge of all of these lies.  

Oh... and her proposal to DH to get DSS15 back?  To meet with her and DSS15 to talk... .seriously?  I swear, she wants time with my DH.

[whirlpoollife]

Sanemom, I've been following your posts. I don't have advice just   for you , DH, and DSS15.

[Nope]

It's less of a felony because he let you know within 24 hours? So only a little bit kidnapping and child endangerment... .

No advice, but it does seem you are prepared to handle it however you have to.

[GaGrl]

So difficult and touchy a situation, with no fully positive resolution in the immediate timeframe. This next week will be tough on everyone.

All positive energy being sent your way... .

[sanemom]

The question is, IF she goes to jail, will she stop doing this crap?  That is all we want... .just follow the orders.

[GaGrl]

I know that the ONE thing that seemed to work with DH's ex was the threat of jail. She became violent with one of here boyfriends (threatened him with a gun) and was arrested and spent the night in jail. Although that didn't stop some of her behaviors (and some were illegal), it becomes came obvious that she didn't want the legal system in her business - which was DH's leverage during their divorce negotiations. She is smart and savvy... .knows when she's reached a limit... .not sure about your  HUDson's level of awareness.

[Nope]

The question is, IF she goes to jail, will she stop doing this crap?  That is all we want... .just follow the orders.

Well, at a minimum she won't be able to do this from a jail cell. So that's something. I also think actually going to jail will make her think a bit before doing it again. Because, let's face it, she doesn't believe it'll happen to her.  And if she was even doing one thing that she is supposed to do, even a little bit, she'd be right. But she seems intent on stomping on this judge's last nerve.

But it's really hard to say. BPDs usually at least see the court system as an authority. She doesn't seem to care.

[sanemom]

The question is, IF she goes to jail, will she stop doing this crap?  That is all we want... .just follow the orders.

But it's really hard to say. BPDs usually at least see the court system as an authority. She doesn't seem to care.

She has been able to out-maneuver the legal system for so long... .avoiding child support hearings, moving to avoid being served for court hearings, calling CPS to "legally" keep kids from us, etc. etc. etc.  She seems to think that if she frames this as a runaway situation where DSS18 is "harboring" him at her place, it will be ok.  She is claiming she is not talking with DSS15 while she is at her place--I think she may truly think that will make it technically ok. 

[Nope]

The question is, IF she goes to jail, will she stop doing this crap?  That is all we want... .just follow the orders.

But it's really hard to say. BPDs usually at least see the court system as an authority. She doesn't seem to care.

She has been able to out-maneuver the legal system for so long... .avoiding child support hearings, moving to avoid being served for court hearings, calling CPS to "legally" keep kids from us, etc. etc. etc.  She seems to think that if she frames this as a runaway situation where DSS18 is "harboring" him at her place, it will be ok.  She is claiming she is not talking with DSS15 while she is at her place--I think she may truly think that will make it technically ok. 

And if he was harboring an under age girlfriend in her house, what would she do? Throw up her hands and say she has no involvement? That's not going to be acceptable. If it were me I'd ask my L if we can skip jail and go straight to involuntary commitment to a mental health facility. The judge might even like that better.

[Thunderstruck]

Ugh. I'm kind of disgusted at all the kids and BPDmom for this.

This fits perfectly into BPDmom's reality though. "It's not my fault, my hands are tied, it's all DSS15, he doesn't want to be there."

At first I didn't think BPDmom should go to jail because it was DSS15 and DSS18, but... .now that I think about it, if she really tried one iota (instead of enabling this behavior) then she could get DSS15 to go back to your house. I mean if it were me, I would say to the kids "You need to cooperate or I'm the one that's going to jail". I'd freaking kick both of them out of the house, not allow DSS18 to "harbor" DSS15.

She is a really good manipulator. I feel like she set up the dominoes a long time ago, gave one little push, and now is just sitting back and watching them all fall.

[Thunderstruck]

 All of the kids will be furious with us, I am sure, for doing that to their mom.  

But that's the thing... .you guys didn't do anything to her, she is doing this to herself! And DSS15 is sending her to jail by being defiant and running back to her when the court expressly said he couldn't.

I'm sorry that DSS15 is unhappy with the courts decision, but if he would have pulled his head out of his rear end months ago and just followed through with visits then he wouldn't be in this situation now. In real life, actions have consequences. He cannot go do whatever he wants and think that nothing will happen because of it.

But I can't even really fault DSS15 because I know he's ultimately getting his strings pulled by BPDmom.

[ForeverDad]

DSS15 at mom's house?  Sounds like jail for her to me.  Really, it's hard to imagine she can't control her own residence.  I agree with the others, after all these years of passive and ineffectual decisions, she doesn't believe she will get consequences.

Grown DSS18 picked him up secretly?  This means he's been in contact with DSS15, a likely channel for his mother to influence things, whether subtly or not.  That may need judicial action as well, the siblings certainly are not inclined to cooperate.

If the judge orders something like Richard Warshak's Family Bridges program/retreat, then be aware Warshak won't handle cases where a court orders the alienating parent to share in the costs of the program.

Edit... .I think handing it to the judge sooner than later is best.  If the judge gives her time to comply, that's the judge.  Just file with the judge or whatever it takes to inform the judge.  And the siblings are adults, as adults they're considered by society as responsible for their actions.

[sanemom]

We can't afford Family Bridges, but Warshak sent us a name to help find a residential treatment center.

This morning she texted DH to say her grandfather died and requested permission from him to take DSS15 5 hours away to his funeral.  Seriously? 

[Thunderstruck]

This morning she texted DH to say her grandfather died and requested permission from him to take DSS15 5 hours away to his funeral.  Seriously?  

I really miss that eyeroll emoji. What part of "no contact" does she not understand? The judge didn't say "no contact unless DSS18 harbors him in your house", the judge didn't say "no contact unless one of your family members dies". The judge said "NO CONTACT".

And saying "your father won't let me take you to your great grandfather's funeral" is ALIENATION! Grrrr. She is setting DH up to be the bad guy again.

[ForeverDad]

How will she go if she's in jail?

Minor side point, is there an independent way to confirm g-grandfather's death?  The timing is too convenient.  Of course, if true and his mom is in jail then DH could take him.  But no.  I fear something would surely happen to sabotage such a trip, too many opportunities for siblings or maternal relatives to much things up.  Best for him to have calm time with your family.

[Nope]

I remember a few years ago when the kids PBDm told DH that he couldn't have the kids for Father's Day because her grandfather was very sick and it would likely be the last Father's Day the kids would get to spend with him. Found out a year and a half later that her grandfather had already been gone and buried for four months when that conversation happened.

Even if it is true, and I'd bet good money that it's not, it is not in SS15's best interests to go anywhere with the parent that is court ordered not to have any contact with him. If I were the judge I'd look at your DH pretty funny if he let SS15 go. As a matter of fact, not that anyone would be there to bring the action, but DH is bound by the order to see that it is enforced as well and it would be contempt to do otherwise. And at this point SS15 can get told that when you finally get him back.

[whirlpoollife]

DSS15 will be alienated whether he goes or stays. If BPD mom actually goes to the funeral, and if dss stays with you ... then momentarily he won't feel the pressure that he has to be or can be at her house. 

[DoxieLover]

I would tell BPD mom to file an emergency motion to get a hearing so judge can decide about DSS15 going to the funeral. (Make the judge the "bad" guy.). Also judge will probably require proof that there actually has been a death and there is a funeral so you guys can find out if this is another BS tactic from her or not.  And while you are all there in front of the judge, BPD Mom can explain how "no contact" is going. (Eye roll)

[Deb]

This morning she texted DH to say her grandfather died and requested permission from him to take DSS15 5 hours away to his funeral.  Seriously? 

If she takes him 5 hours away, wouldn't that be considered kidnapping?

[sanemom]

The judge has demanded that both clients and attorneys meet with the judge tomorrow morning.  Surely he will not retract his order just because he is worried about what the teen will do.  Just wait until he sees her crazy texts and hears about what she said about what the judge said "What that judge said was some crazy a$$ $&^t".

I am really hoping we can reign DSS15 in quickly.

[Thunderstruck]

The judge has demanded that both clients and attorneys meet with the judge tomorrow morning.  Surely he will not retract his order just because he is worried about what the teen will do.  Just wait until he sees her crazy texts and hears about what she said about what the judge said "What that judge said was some crazy a$$ $&^t".

I am really hoping we can reign DSS15 in quickly.

Heck no, he's not going to let a 15 year old run the show.

I wonder if the judge could threaten preventing DSS15 from being able to get his license if he pulls another stunt like this? Or is that too far?

[ForeverDad]

As we hoped, the judge is very peeved.  About time.

With DSS15 with mother now and her documented communications about the judge and the order and trying to weasel out of it, then I think/hope mom gets a few days in jail.  (After all, she's not working, she won't lose a job over it and no minor children in her residence.)  As the Scripture says, "But as for me, my eye will not feel sorry; nor will I show compassion. The consequences of their way I will bring down on their own head."  (Ezekiel 9:10)

Also to be addressed, whether to restrict the adult children so that they to can have consequences for any sort of collusion with mother.  After all, there was aiding and abetting.  Possibly nothing now, but an order to keep them in check.  (Looking ahead to school, might she, DSS15 or others get schoolmates to pass messages?)

Will DSS15 have to live with 'supervised' phone access these next several months?  Does DSS15 risk getting a few days in Juvenile Detention?  That might help him see that being with Dad is way better... .

[sanemom]

I am not sure what all just happened, but the judge ordered us that our attorney write up the order today so he can enforce it tomorrow.  He is going to alert the DA that she has now committed a felony.  The judge told us to call the police and report DSS15 as a runaway.  It is clear that he is putting her in jail; just not today.  He was talking about coercive contempt, civil contempt, and criminal contempt.  The judge is very done with her.

[ForeverDad]

It also reflects on the maturity and forethought of the children.  Both boys, an adult and a minor teen, enabled mother to flaunt the judge's decision.  If only one or both had said, "No, I/we can't do that or else our mother probably goes to jail."

Hmm, maybe at some point that point can be made, ":)id you boys realize what the consequences for ignoring a court order could be?  While maybe you didn't get direct consequences, your mother did.  As an adult, those were her consequences, but the fact is that you had a part in enabling her to go against the court's order.  Going forward, can we talk things out so outcomes such as this can be avoided?"

Sadly, DH's older son is an adult, he probably can't be forced to attend a session when a neutral professional could try to help him see the overall perspective.  The younger son has two years with professional help on hand to adjust his outlook and perspective.

Of course there will be a lot of blaming and blame shifting.  If only mean dad had just complied with mom instead of the court... .when it should be, Wow, mom went too far and we got roped into her world view, yikes, we better change our ways and perspectives before we join her on the short term chain gang... .

I guess it remains to be seen whether the judge bluntly asks the children whether they want records too.  I wonder, if that happens, how they would answer the question, ":)o you boys really want arrest or juvenile detention records?"

[Nope]

I am not sure what all just happened, but the judge ordered us that our attorney write up the order today so he can enforce it tomorrow.  He is going to alert the DA that she has now committed a felony.  The judge told us to call the police and report DSS15 as a runaway.  It is clear that he is putting her in jail; just not today.  He was talking about coercive contempt, civil contempt, and criminal contempt.  The judge is very done with her.

Good! This sounds like he's preparing to throw the book at her. I honestly thought he'd soften up on this, but it appears he has a limit and it has been reached. I'm wracking my brain to figure out how this will play out. There is the civil matter and the criminal matter. In the civil matter, depending on where you are, the judge can order her to jail pretty immediately. With the criminal matter she'll need to be formally charged, bail would be set, and a hearing on the matter. ... .Depending on where you are that may or may not need to go in front of a different judge. Even though the civil contempt probably has the more immediate consequences, if the judge feels a felony has been committed that can actually carry significant jail time. To the point where supervised visitation in 90 days could be moot... .

[Thunderstruck]

I am not sure what all just happened, but the judge ordered us that our attorney write up the order today so he can enforce it tomorrow.  He is going to alert the DA that she has now committed a felony.  The judge told us to call the police and report DSS15 as a runaway.  It is clear that he is putting her in jail; just not today.  He was talking about coercive contempt, civil contempt, and criminal contempt.  The judge is very done with her.

Was she there for all of this?

[GaGrl]

Was she there for all of this?

That was my question, too.  Did she actually show up and sit through the judge's comments?  If so, she HAS to know she's in trouble.