I stuck up for myself. Hey I feel pretty good.

[jrharvey]

A while back I discussed with her how abusive our relationship became and how it was going to make us separate. I just kept saying it over and over again and I think it just bounced off of her but it sounds like its starting to sink in. I hope at least. Either way... .If I leave I want her to know exactly why.

Last night some things happened that I thought was worth mentioning. So a while back I installed an app called Life 360 on both of our phones so we could track the location of each other. This made her feel a lot more comfortable and kept her out of my hair for a little bit. I don't really have the time to check up on her location all the time so this was more for her own comfort. I don't know what happened but yesterday it was buggy on my phone and it showed me as being disconnected for a few hours in the morning. I didn't even realize and I had gone to the gym and went to work for a little bit. At first she just told me it wasn't working so I restarted my phone and it started working. She said she wasn't bothered by it and she just wanted to let me know. Later on when she got home she started asking a bunch of questions though. She asked what time did I leave for the gym, what time did I get to the gym, did I go anywhere else, did I meet up with anyone, what time did I get to work and how long did I work. I answered these questions very calm until she asked did I meet any girls. I let out a really big sigh of disappointment and told her that I didn't think this was going very well and I can tell that this conversation is going to end up badly and it's probably a good idea to stop. I told her that I didn't meet any girls but I just really don't feel like talking about this anymore. I assumed that she would get upset like she usually does when I say that butt this time it was different. She said that she was really sorry for the questions she was really worried about it and she can't stop worrying about it and asking the questions are a way to make herself feel better. She said that she didn't really believe me 100% but talking it out like this was helping her a lot. Then she said that she believes me and she won't bring it up again.


Then later that night I told her that one of my guy friends asked me to go to a theme park with him. She always says she hates roller coasters and doesn't like that place so I said I am going on a Saturday. She started asking why I wanted to go and who all is going and I calmly answered everything. After about 5 questions she said she felt worried about that because what if I meet some girls in line or my friend brings a girl. She said she didn't like it. She really didnt want me to go. I stopped her and said... .ok this is an example of abuse. It's called isolation. Your using my empathy and guilt to isolate me from my friends and this is something abusers do so that you can only experience their view of the world. She said she understood and didn't mean to do that. She said she really is just worried but she understands and would be ok with me going. She said that is a problem she needs to work on and she was sorry.


A little bit later she said she never hangs out with my friends because she "knows" I'm embarrassed by her. It's completely untrue but that's what she said. She said that she could tell that I was ashamed by her when my friend came over for dinner one night. Again this was completely untrue. She said that we were talking about some TV show and she didn't know what we were talking about and she felt stupid and ashamed. She said she was worried that I would go find a girl that knew more about American stuff and could talk to my friends that I wasn't embarrassed about. She said she was worried that I would leave her for an American Girl that we had more in common. I told her that I was never even once embarrassed by her I would never leave her for an American girl for that reason. I said if you really feel that way then that is really sad and it must be a horrible feeling but I do have something very important to say. I said are you seriously worried about me leaving you? She said yes. I said okay here is the honest truth. I don't care about those silly things I don't care if you know nothing about what I'm talking about with my friends or you not being American. I would never leave you for that reason. Im actually very proud of you. I told her that I will leave her because she is abusive and because she makes my life hell every day with her abuse. I said if you really are worried about me leaving you then you should be very very scared about the abuse and not worry about little things like me being embarrassed that you are not American. I said I will leave you because you are abusive. I said I was never embarrassed about you not being American but I was incredibly embarrassed when you threw a tantrum in front of my friend because of your extreme jealousy. I said I was extremely embarrassed when I try to hold your hand and you said don't touch me really loud in front of him. I said that is why I will leave you and that is why you should be worried.

She was quiet for a while and then kissed me and said she loved me. I don't know if it really sunk in or not but I hope.


I have to say that that felt incredible. I felt really good getting all of that out and her actually listening to it and me stop worrying about her worries that don't make sense.

[Matt]

She said that is a problem she needs to work on and she was sorry.

What do you think she means by "to work on"?

Have either of you considered counseling?

* Couples counseling

* Individual counseling for her

* Individual counseling for you

Counselors can help if an individual has a problem.  They can also help if we're more-or-less healthy but dealing with difficult people and situations.

My own experience was, I waited too long - til I had become very depressed - but just the act of reaching out to find a counselor made me feel better.  Then I worked with him once a week for a while, and then once a month for several years.

[jrharvey]

She said that is a problem she needs to work on and she was sorry.

What do you think she means by "to work on"?

Have either of you considered counseling?

* Couples counseling

* Individual counseling for her

* Individual counseling for you

Counselors can help if an individual has a problem.  They can also help if we're more-or-less healthy but dealing with difficult people and situations.

My own experience was, I waited too long - til I had become very depressed - but just the act of reaching out to find a counselor made me feel better.  Then I worked with him once a week for a while, and then once a month for several years.

Im seeing a counselor. Have been talking to her all week. Ive been sharing our conversations with the counselor. She said she cannot diagnose my GF without meeting her but she is almost positive that my GF is borderline but also possibly a sociopath. She said that every word that my GF sent me sounds like manipulation. I don't really see it myself. I see her being extremely difficult a lot of times but not manipulative and sociopathic like she says. Maybe we just need more time.

She really frustrates me when I talk about therapy. She really doesnt want to go because she is extremely insecure and doesn't like talking to strangers. She doesn't really trust anyone and I don't think she would open up to her therapist.

[Matt]

Well I'm glad you're seeing someone.  That's not only good for you, but it's also probably the best way to inspire your girlfriend to see someone... .

[jrharvey]

Well I'm glad you're seeing someone.  That's not only good for you, but it's also probably the best way to inspire your girlfriend to see someone... .

I have a feeling there will need to be an ultimatum. I don't want to do that but Im at the point that I know what I want and if she doesn't care enough to go Ill walk. Im already ready to walk right now. Im doing my own thing without her anyways and its driving her nuts.

[Matt]

Well I'm glad you're seeing someone.  That's not only good for you, but it's also probably the best way to inspire your girlfriend to see someone... .

I have a feeling there will need to be an ultimatum. I don't want to do that but Im at the point that I know what I want and if she doesn't care enough to go Ill walk. Im already ready to walk right now. Im doing my own thing without her anyways and its driving her nuts.

Here was my experience... .but my situation was pretty different, because we were married and had kids together... .

My wife got violent, and made serious accusations against me, so I really had to figure out if the marriage could be made to work.

We went to four different counselors over the years, all picked by my wife.  The fourth one was really good, and told me that my wife probably had BPD.

I was in individual counseling, and our counselor used that as a positive example, hoping to get my wife into counseling so the marriage could be saved;  I think most counselors would agree that if someone has a serious psychological problem like BPD, and isn't willing to get help, it will be very difficult to make a relationship work.

But my wife absolutely refused to get help, so at a certain point I had to accept that and make decisions accordingly.

During our divorce, the judge appointed a psychologist to deal with custody matters, and the psychologist formally diagnosed my wife with BPD and some other stuff.  We got shared custody, on the condition that my wife would get the recommended treatment - a type of therapy called Dialectic Behavior Therapy.

But even then - after being ordered to get treatment by a judge - she didn't do it.  She risked losing contact with her kids rather than get the help she needs.

(As it turned out, we never went back to court, and the court never enforced the judge's order.)

I think most people with BPD and other serious psychological disorders are very reluctant to get the help they need.  That leaves us in a position of deciding what we can do... .and making choices among the options we have control over.

[jrharvey]

That is incredibly sad matt. You know she should love you and her kids enough to get the help she needs and you guys deserve. I cant believe she would throw everything away because of that. Unreal. My GF says she will do ANYTHING to make us better. I saw, see a therapist. She says I don't want to talk to strangers. Its definitely tough.

[Matt]

That is incredibly sad matt. You know she should love you and her kids enough to get the help she needs and you guys deserve. I cant believe she would throw everything away because of that. Unreal. My GF says she will do ANYTHING to make us better. I saw, see a therapist. She says I don't want to talk to strangers. Its definitely tough.

One thing I've heard both from my ex-wife and others who need treatment for a personality disorder, is that they expect therapy to "hurt".

I think they expect therapy to be about uncovering what happened early in their lives, that led to their problems.  I'm not really sure if this is true or not;  I think Dialectic Behavior Therapy is mostly about how to cope with life today, and not so much about what happened in childhood.

But in the end each person has to decide for herself whether she will get the help she needs or not, and most people with BPD don't choose to get treatment.

My ex has caused a lot of problems for me and for our kids, because she won't get help.  But over time - especially after I accepted that she won't get help - I learned ways to minimize the chaos for myself, and ways to support our kids and help them... .

[formflier]

Language matters:  I would stay away from thinking or saying the world "ultimatum"

Much better to think about making choices for yourself and respecting choices made by your partner.  As well as respecting choices made by yourself.

It seems you are beginning to grasp your situation and I'm very pleased that you are working with a T.  They are very helpful to sort things out.

My hope would be at some point that you can "pivot" from talking about her... .to talking about living out your life... .and inviting her to come along (while knowing you will respect whatever choice she makes).

Looking forward to following your journey to a healthier place.

FF

[HopefulDad]

What happened to that thread you started about being done and leaving her?  I'm seeing a lot of conflicting messages.

Honestly... .what do you get out of keeping this relationship with her?  There must be something(s) you're getting from her that you think you cannot get from someone else.  What?  And if the main answer is, "When she's not flying off the handle, she really loves me a lot", then welcome to the idealization phase of BPD.  That's not love.

Anyway, my question is more rhetorical because it's something you need to ask yourself.

[jrharvey]

What happened to that thread you started about being done and leaving her?  I'm seeing a lot of conflicting messages.

Honestly... .what do you get out of keeping this relationship with her?  There must be something(s) you're getting from her that you think you cannot get from someone else.  What?  And if the main answer is, "When she's not flying off the handle, she really loves me a lot", then welcome to the idealization phase of BPD.  That's not love.

Anyway, my question is more rhetorical because it's something you need to ask yourself.

She lives with me. I've been trying to stay as separate as possible. I literally cannot just kick her out. Your right though. Its so hard not to feel conflicted in idealization.

[HopefulDad]

She lives with me. I've been trying to stay as separate as possible. I literally cannot just kick her out. Your right though. Its so hard not to feel conflicted in idealization.

Of course you can kick her out.  Or she can stay there and you leave.  Sure, it might cost some extra money to make it happen either way, but there's nothing literally keeping you both under the same roof.

[formflier]

Your house... .your rules.  You can keep power or give it away... .your choice.

FF

[Matt]

Whatever you decide about living together, there's another issue we should probably discuss:  birth control.

Quite a few men here - including me - trusted our partners when they told us they would take care of birth control.

I probably hold the Stupid Award.  First, I believed my girlfriend when she said she would take care of it... .then she "forgot" and got pregnant, so I married her (as she knew I would)... .and we had a long talk and she promised never to "forget" again... .then just short time later she got pregnant again.

I'm a really slow learner.

So finally I took personal responsibility for birth control.  But I still had two kids with her... .plus two stepkids... .which meant I had to put up with worse and worse behavior... .twelve long years... .til finally - in jail - I decided I just couldn't do it any more.

Don't get me wrong - I don't regret a thing when it comes to my kids - if I could go back in time and change things I wouldn't.

But my carelessness and blind trust made my life very, very difficult for many years.

Many men here have had similar experiences.  It's not rare for women with BPD to use pregnancy to get what they want.

So... .sorry to be too personal... .but my strong suggestion would be, "No glove, no love."

[formflier]

But my carelessness and blind trust made my life very, very difficult for many years.

 

Yep.  Life is much simpler for people on these boards that "just" have a relationship with a SO to consider.

I have 8 kids with someone that has a deep paranoid root (no official diagnosis) in them.  I believe I understand where it comes from in her FOO.  Once her issues came to full bloom in 2009 I believed her to be healed or "better" a couple years later and had another (our 8th) child with her. 

I 100% agree that if I could go back in time, I would do it again.  My kids are worth it, so I could not imagine saying I wouldn't want them around.

However, my advice to those that are not married or are married and don't have kids is to wait on "next steps" until professionals are saying that the condition is being managed AND time has passed (years) of a pwBPD consistently addressing their issues.

I have seen how her sister (much worse than she is) raised their kids in divorce and that is NOT acceptable to me.  2 of the 3 are really screwed up.  Interesting thing is that my wife recently spent a couple days with them and was explaining the dysfunction to me and correctly laid responsibility for that on her sisters behavior. 

FF