Advice from Psychologist about how to defuse threats

[formflier]

So, a lot of my work with my P is practicing real life conversations... .word tracks and making them shorter, more effective... .and as "gentle" as possible.

In the old days I used this.

her "blah blah blah... .sign to put my name on the title of the car or I will divorce you"

me  "I don't do threats"  walk away... .

She didn't say that was horrible... .I did communicate a boundary... .but it was a bit abrasive.

the new way...

me "hey... .(say name)... .I'm not comfortable continuing this conversation while there are threats between us.  Let's try again tomorrow evening"  (perhaps add "when things are calmer)

the "hey" is gentle... .soothing... .gently say the name (goal to take tension down a notch)... .make it about me and my comfort and my boundaries.  Acknowledge reality, that there is a threat between us... .but nobody is assigned ownership or blame.  We are clarifying that we are not walking away from the r/s because we are saying we want to come back tomorrow night.

This P is gold... .solid gold.

I hope I never have to use this, but feel confident if I do. 

Hopefully this will help others that are dealing with threats.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

It's worth a try. I hate being threatened, and in fact, BPDh knew this when we dated. I talked about how a past boyfriend would threaten me, and how I never wanted a relationship like that again. BPDh waited until we were married to break out the threats, knowing how much I hated them, and how insecure they make me feel.

I hate the "get the F away from me", and all the other hateful things he says too, but it's really the threats that did the most damage. Who wants to be with someone where there is NO security? In my case, it was really always the marriage he threatened too.

We've had extensive talks about the damage it does, and talked about it a lot in marriage therapy(total waste of time, and only made me feel worse), and I know he's talked about it in his DBT too. Our MC in fact, said she didn't need to see him anymore, unless she just saw him alone to work on his extreme anger. He refused. He said is DBT place won't let him see another therapist, and she told me in my solo session that she thinks he's lying about that. That she has in fact worked with other people who were doing DBT also. She's familiar with DBT.

Getting threats to stop is really hard, and in my experience, the threats do eventually lead up to them doing what they are threatening. It's like they have to build up the courage. BPDh left me once, and I just recently decided that I can't live the rest of my life like this.

[formflier]

  BPDh waited until we were married to break out the threats, knowing how much I hated them, and how insecure they make me feel.
 

It is likely that he didn't consciously think about this.  Or that he could consciously think about this while in a relaxed state, but once he felt insecure or "too close" that the threats spill out.

Think about this... .  While dating, even if you "feel" close there is distance.  Once married the reality is that someone is closer, making it more likely that secrets are exposed... .or hurt is exposed.  Then perhaps they mess up... .it triggers shame... .which triggers them to no want any more stuff exposed... .which triggers them to push away some.

In their head... .they want to get some distance.  They really don't want you gone for good, the only tool they can remember is a threat.  It comes out without thinking.

I'm not saying this to make it ok.  I do hope that people can feel some empathy.  From a place of empathy, combined with a steadfast resolve to uphold boundaries, it is likely that you can speak "kindly"... .but "firmly"... .with an emotionally healthy message.

Then, step back and let them deal with themselves and manage their own feelings.  Absolutely critical that once you have sent the message... .once you have "hit the ball to their side"... .that you give them the freedom of choice.

Also critical that we (the nons) sort out in our heads the difference in being "for" the other person and "for" the relationship and being "rug" that gets walked all over. 

FF

[formflier]

CB,
 
I'm glad to see you posting.  I wish you would post more.  You have a lot on your plate.

I think about your situation often, the advice I have given... .and the advice I wish I would have given.

My hope is that you come to understand that you have power and that a consistent, proper application of that power gives a CHANCE for a better relationship.

Your husband would like to be in a relationship with you.  Being in a relationship is a basic human need/desire.  If you set the correct standards for him to "be in relationship", he may eventually learn them and be better.

This is not something you do "to" your husband, but setting a standard is something you do "for" you.  It just happens to also be good for your husband (or anyone else that is in a r/s with you).

Can you think of specific examples of where this theory could be applied... .or applied better?

FF

[Circle]

Haven't read the whole thread. Only the original post. That does seem like a solid way to phrase it. I recently went through a round of threats myself. I was able to cool the situation down, by saying something like "I'm sorry you're feeling that way." Which may have worked once, but then just p.o.'d my dxBPDso. Thanks for the phrasing. Another thing I picked up on the site, was 'only validate the valid'. Which helped me, in my recent situation; as I realized to let what I couldn't validate (the threats), roll off me, and be generally ignored.

[formflier]

Hey Circle,

About validation.  A threat really isn't an emotion... .so no need to validate it.  If you can correctly identify that they are threatening because of anger... .then that is valid.

"Wow... .you're really mad at me... "

Be quiet and observe.  If the temperature (so to speak) lowered a bit, then it is likely that you found the validation target. 

If not, there are really two options.  1.  There is another emotion at play.  2.  They are too far gone to do empathetic work with.  In my experience, once you get to threats... .option 2 is at play.

With regard to your phrasing.   I don't at all want to imply it is bad.  "That must be hard for you... " or "this must be hard for you" might work better.

I have a "thing" about saying sorry when I'm not sorry... .and I don't say sorry when I am not responsible.  We all know we are not responsible for emotions of others... .therefor can/should never be sorry for them. 

Yeah... I can get a little overboard on these things sometimes... .

Looking forward to chatting more with you.  Did you ever figure out what the threats were really about?

FF

[Circle]

Hello F.F.,
That's what I was saying; with 'validating the valid', I realized I couldn't validate what wasn't valid, namely the threats. Thanks for the tips. I appreciate the subtlety of your observations & techniques.

I agree about using sorry. However, in the moment, it sometimes pops out of the mouth. Especially when trying to be compassionate. Because in our culture, many of the expressions that show compassion traditionally have sorry in them. "I'm sorry you're feeling that way." being an example. It's a standard expression. I do agree about using sorry, as I said, though. And, I refrained from apologizing for the entirety of the situation I was involved in. My dxBPDso was fishing for a total apology. I did apologize for being grumpy on said day; and thus, not using my tools properly and making a thoughtless comment that helped catalyze her state of mind. That wasn't enough though; she wanted more. I refrained from giving more, because it wasn't valid.

":)id you ever figure out what the threats were really about?" -F.F.

The threats, at heart, I feel, were an effort to demonize me, so to speak. She took, what I felt like, was a situation handled not altogether too badly by myself and blew it so completely out-of-proportion that it would have indicted many of her own past actions also. So, I rode it out. Like my copy of the Tao says, "If you want something to shrink, you must first allow it to expand."

What a pain in the keester.

[NotThatGuy]

]
She didn't say that was horrible... .I did communicate a boundary... .but it was a bit abrasive.

the new way...

me "hey... .(say name)... .I'm not comfortable continuing this conversation while there are threats between us.  Let's try again tomorrow evening"  (perhaps add "when things are calmer)

WOW, yes.  I've been working with my therapist on the same thing.   One thing that's a big problem between me and my uBPD wife is that I default to blunt honesty, regardless of my own or other people's feelings, but what she says is motivated only by what she feels or how she wants me to feel-- regardless of whether or not its true.  So she'll say "I want a divorce" if she wants to express anger, or scare me.  I wouldn't say that until I had the papers drawn up. 

So when I started setting boundaries, I did it the blunt way.  "Now you're attacking me, so I'm done with this conversation."  Unsurprisingly, that didn't work, she'd freak out and escalate.  My therapist, who knows us both well, suggested I try finding somethign to validate in her, I own my own emotions and make the disengagemet about me, and I set a time to reengage.  Most of the time, I manage it, and most of the time it works well: "So, this is getting pretty heated.  I know you feel like I'm a low-down-no-good so-and-so (or, you feel like this is such a bad thing that you're thinking you don't want to be married anymore), but I'm feeling really angry and scared, so I don't think it's a good idea for me to keep talking about this right now.  Lets take an hour to regroup and then come back to it."

I'm still working on brevity :-).  The validation has been a real lifesaver-- it helps de-escalate pretty reliably, even if I can only manage a superficial and awkward version: "I hear you say that you'll divorce me if I don't do X."  It helps de-escalate her, and it also gets me in a more respectful and open frame of mind.  I'm stepping into her crazy reality, even if only just by a toe's-breadth.  Its a chance at connection for both of us.

So glad you've found a good therapist to help with all this.  It's key, and too often, even therapists are overwhelmed by folks with BPD, or nons in relationships with them.  For those of us who want to stay, a therapist who can't see any way to make that possible can do more harm than good.

[MaybeSo]

This is a very helpful thread, thanks!

[formflier]

I continue to be in awe at how the psychologist can take my good intentions... and my good words... .and with just a little nuance... .completely change the delivery... .to avoid any hint of invalidation.

Over the years I have built up such a defensive posture.  It is coming down... .but it still gets in the midst of my words... .and is not helpful.

FF

[NotThatGuy]

I continue to be in awe at how the psychologist can take my good intentions... and my good words... .and with just a little nuance... .completely change the delivery... .to avoid any hint of invalidation.

Over the years I have built up such a defensive posture.  It is coming down... .but it still gets in the midst of my words... .and is not helpful.

FF

Of course you've gotten defensive.  My favorite quote about this is from Gottman's "What Makes Love Last", (IMO a great book for ailing relationships in general).  He's talking about active listening, and the difficulty of being non-defensive: "The problem is, anyone will get defensive when they're being attacked."  It's counter-intuitive to sit there when someone delivers blanket negative judgments about your character and behavior, and respond with validation.

But I, too, have been amazed that it's possible to learn how to rephrase the same info, in a way that's validating and non-defensive.  When I do it, it feels even more genuine than if I'd just responded defensively.  I get to acknowledge my partner's view and my own at the same time.  And even though it feels like taking an unacceptable risk, it works better.  The things you don't learn without therapy!

[jrharvey]

"The problem is, anyone will get defensive when they're being attacked."  It's counter-intuitive to sit there when someone delivers blanket negative judgments about your character and behavior, and respond with validation.

Great words. This is one of my problems. I tried for months to explain this to my girlfriend. She would get upset that I got defensive. She could say, Your such and idiot, why do you do stupid things... .

If I get even the tiniest hint of not liking that statement she blows up and blames me for getting upset with her "expressing her feelings" then points out how she is the victim of my attacks . Its all so twisted.

The only thing I find that works here is completely detaching. At that time her words and feelings mean nothing to me. She spits out poison and expects me to drink it but im not gonna do that anymore. Lately I have been calling her out on her abuse a lot. She was getting mad about it saying I didn't care about her feelings or whatever but it seems to be working. If she wants to talk she cant be abusive anymore so eventually she calms down. If she starts trying to poison me again I stop her and call her out on it.

[formflier]

 
jharvey,

What is instead of "calling her out"... .you called yourself out.

Make it about you. 

"I'm not able to  continue this conversation with abusive words between us... ."  "I'm going to take a break and be back in 10 minutes."

Less words... more action.

FF